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compnut   12-18-2007 at 03:57:53 PM

OK Guys,

I can't afford a new build and am stuck with a socket 478 MOBO :cry: It has a Celeron D 3.06GHz CPU and 1gig of PC3200 DDR memory installed on it. I want to do one last upgrade, that being the video card, before haveing to save, save, save for a new build.

I'm haveing trouble deciding between an EVGA 7600GT superclocked DDR2 card with a core clock speed of 580MHz, or an EVGA 7800GS CO DDR3 card with a core clock speed of 430MHz, or a BFG 7800GS DDR3(256 bit) card with a core clock speed of 400MHz :pt1cable: Please help. Yes I will be over clocking the 7800GS cards. Oh, I will be gameing.


Message edited by compnut on 12-18-2007 at 05:36:26 PM
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Maziar   12-18-2007 at 04:11:42 PM
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7800GS is better than 7600GT, 7800GS has 20 pixel pipelines compared to 7600GTs 12 pixel pipelines


Message edited by Maziar on 12-18-2007 at 04:12:19 PM
------------------------------ Q6600@3.4+ TT V1 Cooler,SAPPHIRE HD 4870X2,ASUS MAXIMUS FORMULA,4GB OCZ DDR2 800,LG W2452V 1920x1200
 Reply to Maziar
Cleeve   12-18-2007 at 04:33:49 PM
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7800 GS = 7600 GT. They perform almost exactly the same because the 7600 GT has much higher clockspeeds to compensate.

Overclocking, the 7800 GS will have a slight edge because it gets twice the bandwidth increase per MHz of memory overclock. (256-bit bus vs the 7600 GT's 128-bit bus)

Regardless - get the cheaper one. Your Celeron's tiny cache will bottleneck them both to about the same performance anyhoo.

Another option is the Radeon 2600 XT, which is a bit cheaper. I understand the AGP version works with the Omega drivers though.


Message edited by Cleeve on 12-18-2007 at 05:00:37 PM
------------------------------ Cleeve
Hardware Editor, Tom's Hardware Guide
 Reply to Cleeve
Maziar   12-18-2007 at 04:46:29 PM
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http://www.firingsquad.com/hardwar [...] page16.asp

After months of waiting, AGP users are finally getting more choices when it comes to graphics upgrades. Up first was the GeForce 7800 GS AGP last year, and more recently new releases from both ATI and NVIDIA have provided lots of solid alternatives to the 7800 GS AGP. Where does the GeForce 7600 GT AGP stack up?

Based on our performance numbers, the GeForce 7600 GT AGP certainly has its place. Performance is often close with the GeForce 7800 GS AGP in many benchmarks, although overall the edge definitely goes to the 7800 GS AGP. Keep in mind that we conducted our testing with a factory overclocked 7800 GS AGP from EVGA, and that a stock 7800 GS board would certainly performer closer to XFX’s 7600 GT AGP, which is also factory overclocked. Considering that most GeForce 7800 GS cards sell for well north of $200, we honestly feel that the XFX GeForce 7600 GT 580M AGP is a better value in light of this.

http://www.hardwarezone.com/articl [...] id=3&pg=10

Besides the novelty of having an AGP version of the GeForce 7600 GT, we doubt that there is any major performance difference between this and the average PCI Express based GeForce 7600 GT. Both variants, AGP or PCIe have the same core, same memory bandwidth and same clock speeds. There are some minor physical differences, from the addition of the HSI chip and its heatsink, along with an analog VGA output taking the place of a DVI output to the required power connector. We've also long established that the inclusion of the HSI bridge chip only incurred a very minor performance deficit, thus the general performance of a similarly spec'd AGP of PCIe card should strike a similar performance level. When compared against the GeForce 7800 GS, the only other compatible fresh offering this year, the GeForce 7600 GT AGP edition is a far more convincing option in all areas concerned - performance, price, thermal output and power consumption. Perhaps this could be the end of the GeForce 7800 GS, but we wouldn't miss it when the AGP edition of the GeForce 7600 GT is around as a more cost effective option for both manufactures and consumers.

------------------------------ Q6600@3.4+ TT V1 Cooler,SAPPHIRE HD 4870X2,ASUS MAXIMUS FORMULA,4GB OCZ DDR2 800,LG W2452V 1920x1200
 Reply to Maziar
Cleeve   12-18-2007 at 04:57:54 PM
- 0 +


The Firingsquad review you quoted/linked compared a stock 7600 GT with the 7800 GS 'KO' version... an overclocked 7800 GS.

Hardwarezone's review shows very close results between the 7600 GT and 7800 GS.

To add to the list of reviews, here's the one I wrote for Tom's. Even though I used an overclocked 7800 GS (not the KO, which is clocked even higher I believe), I saw very little difference between the performance of the cards. In fact, the 7600 GT edged out the 7800 GS occasionally:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/0 [...] page5.html

------------------------------ Cleeve
Hardware Editor, Tom's Hardware Guide
 Reply to Cleeve
compnut   12-18-2007 at 05:35:24 PM
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OK Guys,
Thanks. I guess since the cards are so close, there is no real winner and it would just be my personal preference in which way I go.

Reply to compnut
pauldh   12-18-2007 at 05:44:37 PM
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Hard to swallow the cost of either when the slightly cheaper HD2600XT destroys them in so many new games. Driver issue is a consideration, but the omegas like Cleeve said seem to work, also there is a way to add support to the NV drivers mentioned in this thread: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/ [...] ra-dollars
http://exdeus.home.comcast.net/~exdeus/ati-hd2x00/


Message edited by pauldh on 12-18-2007 at 05:58:21 PM
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pauldh   12-18-2007 at 05:56:17 PM
- 0 +

Crysis, COD4, UT3, etc. the HD2600XT is way ahead. Easily beats the 7900GS even. One quick example:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/sho [...] i=3128&p=4


Message edited by pauldh on 12-18-2007 at 05:59:35 PM
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compnut   12-18-2007 at 06:02:42 PM
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Thanks P,
I can't find a HD2600XT any where. I can find a 7800GS for as low as $129.99 plus shipping and a 7600GT for $119.99 plus shipping.

Reply to compnut
mtyermom   12-18-2007 at 06:04:30 PM
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I have an unopened Sapphire x1650 pro DDR3 AGP that I'll sell you for $55 shipped.


Message edited by mtyermom on 12-18-2007 at 06:08:52 PM
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Cleeve   12-18-2007 at 06:05:06 PM
- 0 +

Here, the 2600 XT AGP is $112.99 at newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6814102711

------------------------------ Cleeve
Hardware Editor, Tom's Hardware Guide
 Reply to Cleeve
pauldh   12-18-2007 at 06:22:07 PM
- 0 +

Cleeve, I am amazed the price of that card doesn't seem to budge. If those dissappear, I haven't seen any others around for that price. Also seems the AGP X1950 pro supply is drying up. Me thinks it's time to get AGP 3850 production going AMD.

Reply to pauldh
runswindows95   12-18-2007 at 06:27:19 PM
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The thing is, as cleeve said, his Celeron will hold a higher-end GPU back. Better off just saving the money and forget upgrading. If anything, get another GB of RAM and go with the cheaper GPU.

Reply to runswindows95
compnut   12-18-2007 at 06:27:23 PM
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Thanks for the link Cleeve. I see it is only 128bit memory and I can't find how big a power supply it needs. I ony have a 400w with 20amps on the 12v rail. No I don't want to run Sli or CrossFire.

Reply to compnut
Cleeve   12-18-2007 at 06:32:10 PM
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a good 400w should be just fine for a 2600 XT.

------------------------------ Cleeve
Hardware Editor, Tom's Hardware Guide
 Reply to Cleeve
compnut   12-18-2007 at 06:33:21 PM
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I may consider installing a P4 CPU

Reply to compnut
compnut   12-18-2007 at 06:35:36 PM
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OK Cleeve,
Looks good. Still I don't understand how the 2600XT is better as it only has 128bits on its memory.

Reply to compnut
Cleeve   12-18-2007 at 06:35:39 PM
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If it's a P4 below 3 GHZ, it'll still be somewhat bottlenecked. So don't invest TOO much in the CPU... you'll need an Athlon 64 (or Core 2) at the very least to make it worth your while for a high end video card.

------------------------------ Cleeve
Hardware Editor, Tom's Hardware Guide
 Reply to Cleeve
Maziar   12-18-2007 at 06:36:28 PM
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2600XT is better than 7900GS ? right ?

Message quoted 1 times
------------------------------ Q6600@3.4+ TT V1 Cooler,SAPPHIRE HD 4870X2,ASUS MAXIMUS FORMULA,4GB OCZ DDR2 800,LG W2452V 1920x1200
 Reply to Maziar
compnut   12-18-2007 at 06:38:11 PM
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Going AMD or Core 2 would mean a new build and I can't afford that.

Reply to compnut
pauldh   12-18-2007 at 06:43:57 PM
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Maziar wrote :

2600XT is better than 7900GS ? right ?

Depends on the game and settings. Many new shader heavy games the HD2600XT is alot better. Older games it is probably behind. With FSAA on the 7900GS may be better and neither as good as an X1950 pro. 7900GS also OC's well. But I weigh games like crysis, cod4, ut3 very high and in those the 7900GS is showing it's age. I'd rather have the 2600XT myself.

Reply to pauldh
macrom75   12-18-2007 at 09:30:04 PM
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I feel the pain of the AGPers here. I've got an Athlon XP 3200 system that's served me VERY well over the last few years. It's running a GeForce 4 Ti 4400, and I've been contemplating tossing in an upgrade to add another year of life into it. Especially in WoW, IF and Shatt are sometimes in the single digits lately.

So what's the deal with the X1950s? I see Newegg no longer has them even listed (used to be OOS). Maybe those of us clinging to antiquity should wait for the 3850, but who knows when those will show up or how much they'll cost.

Is the ATI 2600XT really the best option?

Reply to macrom75
Cleeve   12-18-2007 at 09:35:26 PM
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Since the Athlon XP will be CPU bound in newer titles, yeah, the 2600 XT is as much of a video card as you'll want to pair with that CPU.

Anything more expensive will get wasted much of the time as the CPU will hold it back. The 7600 GT and 2600 XT are the sweet spot for older Athlon XPs.

------------------------------ Cleeve
Hardware Editor, Tom's Hardware Guide
 Reply to Cleeve
macrom75   12-18-2007 at 09:44:17 PM
- 0 +

You think the X1950 would be a waste? It's nigh impossible to find one for < $200 now that Newegg delisted the HIS cards...

Reply to macrom75
Cleeve   12-18-2007 at 09:51:42 PM
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For an athlon XP, it's probably not worth the extra $$ over the 2600 XT.

------------------------------ Cleeve
Hardware Editor, Tom's Hardware Guide
 Reply to Cleeve
macrom75   12-18-2007 at 10:14:13 PM
- 0 +

cleeve, thanks for the input. Saves me, oh $100 or so! :)

Now what about the 3850? You think it's not worth the wait for such a low-end proc?

Reply to macrom75
Cleeve   12-18-2007 at 10:17:16 PM
- 0 +

No, unfortunately. Wouldn't see much gains in most titles over the 2600XT on that CPU.

Here's a review I wrote testing the 7600 GT and X1950 PRO on an AthlonXP 2500+, which has the same architecture and cache is a 3200+ but only a couple hundred MHz slower:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/0 [...] -analysis/

As you can see, in many titles the system didn't even show much of a performance increase between the 7600 GT and the vastly more powerful X1950 PRO.

Since the 2600 XT performs between the 7600 GT and X1950 PRO in most case, it's about as much as you'd want to invest in on that platform.




Message edited by Cleeve on 12-18-2007 at 10:18:26 PM
------------------------------ Cleeve
Hardware Editor, Tom's Hardware Guide
 Reply to Cleeve
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