Will People be forced to buy a new TV if they dont have DV..

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

To get HD you will need these connections right. Atleast from a disc
with a HD movie on it.

Even though you could get adpators fo rthe players to connect via
Componate and Svideo. They would just be 480p and not HD.

So how many people do you think will be forced to upgrade. Iam waiting
for a decent TV with HDMI connctions before i splash out.

Technology dont ya just love it.

Bye.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

All current HD sources- cable set top boxes, satellite receivers, etc have
component connections which carry the HD quality signal, not 480p and I am
sure that all future ones will as well. I suspect component connections will
be around long after HDMI has been replaced with something else, just like
DVI before it.

David
"On Holidays" <abbyrow.com.uk> wrote in message
news:u7vf911pu4ajoeuiel3bct62ai4jge0k5s@4ax.com...
>
>
> To get HD you will need these connections right. Atleast from a disc
> with a HD movie on it.
>
> Even though you could get adpators fo rthe players to connect via
> Componate and Svideo. They would just be 480p and not HD.
>
> So how many people do you think will be forced to upgrade. Iam waiting
> for a decent TV with HDMI connctions before i splash out.
>
> Technology dont ya just love it.
>
> Bye.
>

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

L Alpert wrote:
> David&Joan wrote:
>
>>All current HD sources- cable set top boxes, satellite receivers, etc
>>have component connections which carry the HD quality signal, not
>>480p and I am sure that all future ones will as well. I suspect
>>component connections will be around long after HDMI has been
>>replaced with something else, just like DVI before it.
>
>
> The probablility is quite high that the new HD DVD standard (whatever it
> will be) will not be output over component at all through any of the
> compatible players.......you will need a DVI/HDMI connection.
>

Do you have a source for that conjecture?

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin wrote:
> L Alpert wrote:
>> David&Joan wrote:
>>
>>> All current HD sources- cable set top boxes, satellite receivers,
>>> etc have component connections which carry the HD quality signal,
>>> not 480p and I am sure that all future ones will as well. I suspect
>>> component connections will be around long after HDMI has been
>>> replaced with something else, just like DVI before it.
>>
>>
>> The probablility is quite high that the new HD DVD standard
>> (whatever it will be) will not be output over component at all
>> through any of the compatible players.......you will need a DVI/HDMI
>> connection.
>
> Do you have a source for that conjecture?
>
> Matthew

As of now, for even the current players that upscale to 1080i, the offerings
from Samsung, Sony and most others do not offer component output any longer.
Only the Bravo and one other that I know of (the name escapes me at the
moment) offer component out on the latest models.

Also, the movie industry is pushing for no analog outputs for their copy
protection schemes.

With no component out, no DAC is needed, which makes the unit less
expensive. There may be a few companies that will make an external DAC for
awhile, as where there is an obvious need there is usually a product.

With this as well as some other factors, IMO, component outputs will not be
offered with the HD players. I hope I am wrong, as I do not have DVI
either......

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin wrote:
> L Alpert wrote:
>> Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>>
>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>
>>>> David&Joan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> All current HD sources- cable set top boxes, satellite receivers,
>>>>> etc have component connections which carry the HD quality signal,
>>>>> not 480p and I am sure that all future ones will as well. I
>>>>> suspect component connections will be around long after HDMI has
>>>>> been replaced with something else, just like DVI before it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The probablility is quite high that the new HD DVD standard
>>>> (whatever it will be) will not be output over component at all
>>>> through any of the compatible players.......you will need a
>>>> DVI/HDMI connection.
>>>
>>> Do you have a source for that conjecture?
>>>
>>> Matthew
>>
>>
>> As of now, for even the current players that upscale to 1080i, the
>> offerings from Samsung, Sony and most others do not offer component
>> output any longer. Only the Bravo and one other that I know of (the
>> name escapes me at the moment) offer component out on the latest
>> models. Also, the movie industry is pushing for no analog outputs for
>> their
>> copy protection schemes.
>>
>> With no component out, no DAC is needed, which makes the unit less
>> expensive. There may be a few companies that will make an external
>> DAC for awhile, as where there is an obvious need there is usually a
>> product. With this as well as some other factors, IMO, component outputs
>> will
>> not be offered with the HD players. I hope I am wrong, as I do not
>> have DVI either......
>
> I'll take that as a "no, I don't" response.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matthew


There is a thread dating back about 5 years on avsforums. The camp is
pretty much split on if they will be offered with component or not.

It very well maybe that a select few might offer it with component out such
as Bravo or NeuNeo, which will need to be purchased from outside the US and
will have region free encoding.

......sarcastic remark showing that you do not intend to openly discuss the
matter is duly noted.....

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

It maybe have componate if so. You still wont get 720p or 1080i HD
for the movies, Best you can hope for is 576p. Only DVI or HDMI has
the bandwith for HD movies.

So if you don't have DVI or HDMI now. Your screwed if you bough a big
screen TV and said to yourslef this will do me for years and years. It
probably will unless you don't want HD movies.

But if you do you WILL have to buy another TV. Then again HD movies
might tank and no one will care :0

Bye.



On Sun, 29 May 2005 08:52:10 -0700, "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com>
wrote:

>Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>> L Alpert wrote:
>>> Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>>>
>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> David&Joan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> All current HD sources- cable set top boxes, satellite receivers,
>>>>>> etc have component connections which carry the HD quality signal,
>>>>>> not 480p and I am sure that all future ones will as well. I
>>>>>> suspect component connections will be around long after HDMI has
>>>>>> been replaced with something else, just like DVI before it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The probablility is quite high that the new HD DVD standard
>>>>> (whatever it will be) will not be output over component at all
>>>>> through any of the compatible players.......you will need a
>>>>> DVI/HDMI connection.
>>>>
>>>> Do you have a source for that conjecture?
>>>>
>>>> Matthew
>>>
>>>
>>> As of now, for even the current players that upscale to 1080i, the
>>> offerings from Samsung, Sony and most others do not offer component
>>> output any longer. Only the Bravo and one other that I know of (the
>>> name escapes me at the moment) offer component out on the latest
>>> models. Also, the movie industry is pushing for no analog outputs for
>>> their
>>> copy protection schemes.
>>>
>>> With no component out, no DAC is needed, which makes the unit less
>>> expensive. There may be a few companies that will make an external
>>> DAC for awhile, as where there is an obvious need there is usually a
>>> product. With this as well as some other factors, IMO, component outputs
>>> will
>>> not be offered with the HD players. I hope I am wrong, as I do not
>>> have DVI either......
>>
>> I'll take that as a "no, I don't" response.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Matthew
>
>
>There is a thread dating back about 5 years on avsforums. The camp is
>pretty much split on if they will be offered with component or not.
>
>It very well maybe that a select few might offer it with component out such
>as Bravo or NeuNeo, which will need to be purchased from outside the US and
>will have region free encoding.
>
>.....sarcastic remark showing that you do not intend to openly discuss the
>matter is duly noted.....
>

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

(On Holidays <abbyrow.com.uk> ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> It maybe have componate if so. You still wont get 720p or 1080i HD
> for the movies, Best you can hope for is 576p. Only DVI or HDMI has
> the bandwith for HD movies.

This is completely wrong.

Component video handles 1080i and 720p just fine.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Dilbert/ActualCode.gif

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

L Alpert wrote:

>
> .....sarcastic remark showing that you do not intend to openly
> discuss the matter is duly noted.....
>

You were asked a specific question which could have been answered with a
"yes, look here" or "no". Instead you blathered on about your opinion.
Why did you make the statement:

>>> The probablility is quite high that the new HD DVD standard
>>> (whatever it will be) will not be output over component at all
>>> through any of the compatible players.......you will need a
>>> DVI/HDMI connection.

when you have no authoritative information that would lead to that
conclusion?

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

L Alpert wrote:
> Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>
>>L Alpert wrote:
>>
>>
>>>.....sarcastic remark showing that you do not intend to openly
>>>discuss the matter is duly noted.....
>>>
>>
>>You were asked a specific question which could have been answered
>>with a "yes, look here" or "no". Instead you blathered on about your
>>opinion. Why did you make the statement:
>>
>>
>>>>>The probablility is quite high that the new HD DVD standard
>>>>>(whatever it will be) will not be output over component at all
>>>>>through any of the compatible players.......you will need a
>>>>>DVI/HDMI connection.
>>
>>when you have no authoritative information that would lead to that
>>conclusion?
>>
>>Matthew
>
>
> Note my response to yours included a reference to IMO. My "authoritative"
> response has more to do with the logic of manufacturing, in which I happen
> to have a lot of experience with. Making the unit without the DAC circuit
> will not greatly impact the sales or the ASP, while it will decrease the
> manufacturing cost and increase the gross margin.

The fact that most displays have component inputs while relatively few
have HDMI makes adding the DACs a reasonable marketing choice. Why
remove a large portion of the installed base from your set of potential
customers? It would be a bizarre marketing decision. If it happens, it
would likely be the result of external forces (Hollywood), not the
result of a good marketing plan.

> If you want to read up on the subject, go to avsforums. As I mentioned,
> there is a thread there that dates back to 2000. There is no sense being an
> anal pore about it, but of course, you may not be able to help
> yourself.........AMF

You were asked for a source, you have none. You took umbrage at having
that pointed out to you. I suspect you are a very self-important man.

> <plonk>

Speaking of being anal. Why tell someone you are plonking them:-)

Matthew (then again, why respond to someone who plonked you:-?)

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

L Alpert (alpertl@xxgmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> > The fact that most displays have component inputs while relatively few
> > have HDMI makes adding the DACs a reasonable marketing choice. Why
> > remove a large portion of the installed base from your set of
> > potential customers? It would be a bizarre marketing decision. If it
> > happens, it would likely be the result of external forces
> > (Hollywood), not the result of a good marketing plan.
>
> By the time of release, the large majority of sets sold will have the
> digital inputs.

Although new sets sold will have them, the majority of sets in use will not.
In addition, the sets that do not have them are those of early adopters,
who are the people who spend the money and influence buying decisions of
the rest of the population. If those early adopters say "no, don't buy
this" to their friends, HD-DVD (with whatever disc format) will be a non-
starter.

--
Jeff Rife | "I feel an intense ambivalence, some of which
| doesn't border entirely on the negative."
|
| -- Ned Dorsey, "Ned and Stacey"

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff Rife wrote:
> Although new sets sold will have them, the majority of sets in use will not.
> In addition, the sets that do not have them are those of early adopters,
> who are the people who spend the money and influence buying decisions of
> the rest of the population. If those early adopters say "no, don't buy
> this" to their friends, HD-DVD (with whatever disc format) will be a non-
> starter.

Most HD TVs sold in the past year or more have had either a single DVI
(with HDCP) or HDMI port. Given that the number of HD TVs sold has been
rapidly increasing over the past several years, it is likely that by the
time that HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray hits the market, the significant
majority of HD TVs will have a digital port. The problem is that most
sets, even now, have only one digital port which could lead to a problem
if the person wants to hook up both the HD-DVD or BD player and the
cable set top box through the digital port.

You could switch the set top box to component cable, but if the media
companies ever succeed in their attempts to force the cable and
satellite companies to down-rezz the component output to 480p so
everyone has to use copy protected digital ports, there could be a
problem. Perhaps by then A/V receivers with multiple HDMI ports will be
commonplace.

To Matthew who keep asking for a source cite, this has been widely
discussed on avsforum. As I understand it, the manufacturers have not
flatly come out and stated that their players won't offer HD through
component, but they also have not said that they will. Those on avsforum
who have gone to the industry trade shows have asked about this and only
get evasive or vague answers. The general opinion of the AV buffs and
those in the business is that we should expect the HD-DVD or BD players
to only provide HD through copy protected HDMI ports. This may not
happen, but a lot of people expect it will.

Alan F

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote in message
news:U5mdnaqs86CWJAXfRVn-gw@comcast.com...
> David&Joan wrote:
>> All current HD sources- cable set top boxes, satellite receivers, etc
>> have component connections which carry the HD quality signal, not
>> 480p and I am sure that all future ones will as well. I suspect
>> component connections will be around long after HDMI has been
>> replaced with something else, just like DVI before it.
>
> The probablility is quite high that the new HD DVD standard (whatever it
> will be) will not be output over component at all through any of the
> compatible players.......you will need a DVI/HDMI connection.

Won't happen. Not enough TV sets out there with DVI/HDMI.

Steve

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff Rife wrote:
> L Alpert (alpertl@xxgmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>
>>Are not the majority of upscaling players only offering digital outputs and
>>foregoing the component? Manufacturers are removing them from their second
>>and further generation devices.
>
>
> No. It's just the upscaling that has been removed from the component
> outputs. I know it's a requirement of the DVD Consortium, but I don't
> understand it.

The consortium may have done this to reduce consumer confusion. Using
component for SD only removes a setup issue. That's a really weak excuse
as they could just as easily mandated that component default to SD with
a menu pick required for HD.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

L Alpert (alpertl@xxgmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> There is no sense in getting an upscaling player if you can't view an
> upscaled output.

Future-proofing and getting the better scaler/de-interlacer might be worth
the very small extra cost to many people.

--
Jeff Rife | "Only one human captain has ever survived battle
| with a Minbari fleet...he is behind me...you are
| in front of me. If you value your lives,
| be somewhere else."
| -- Ambassador Delenn, 2260

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <TuKdnYn_ZvaTCQffRVn-sg@comcast.com>,
Alan Figgatt <afiggatt@comcast.net> wrote:

> To Matthew who keep asking for a source cite, this has been widely
> discussed on avsforum. As I understand it, the manufacturers have not
> flatly come out and stated that their players won't offer HD through
> component, but they also have not said that they will. Those on avsforum
> who have gone to the industry trade shows have asked about this and only
> get evasive or vague answers. The general opinion of the AV buffs and
> those in the business is that we should expect the HD-DVD or BD players
> to only provide HD through copy protected HDMI ports. This may not
> happen, but a lot of people expect it will.

If they're not going to protect content, why have they been putting in
protected outputs? Some day, they will turn on the protection.

We'd all like unprotected hardware and content.

Not going to happen.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

poldy (poldy@kfu.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> If they're not going to protect content, why have they been putting in
> protected outputs?

The exact same reason a weak protection system was used on DVDs: because
they don't understand technology. In truth, the CE manufacturers
understand technology, but they are just doing what the content providers
want.

The best example is that DVI can't be recorded whether it is encrypted or
not. There aren't disc drives fast enough or big enough to deal with
it. Likewise, you can't record component video in a form that can be
shipped around the Internet without re-digitizing, and that means a *lot*
of quality loss even with $2K worth of hardware behind it.

Then, there's the broadcast flag, which doesn't stop recording and can't
stop distribution when there are *millions* of non-compliant devices
already out there.

The content providers say "we want our content protected from copying",
and then just agree whenever some guy with a flashy presentation says
"this will do the job". Yet, everything that is currently being done
for HD doesn't prevent copying...it only prevents *viewing*. But, I guess
the MPAA thinks that would be the best thing ever: have everybody pay their
member companies lots of money and then not care what the content is
because they can't see it anyway.

--
Jeff Rife | "There was a guy that was killed just like this
| over in Jersey."
| "Yeah, but I figure, 'What the hell,
| that's Jersey.'"
| -- "Highlander"

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

poldy wrote:
> In article <MPG.1d043cf0bf167c15989d85@news.nabs.net>,
> Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Although new sets sold will have them, the majority of sets in use will not.
>>In addition, the sets that do not have them are those of early adopters,
>>who are the people who spend the money and influence buying decisions of
>>the rest of the population. If those early adopters say "no, don't buy
>>this" to their friends, HD-DVD (with whatever disc format) will be a non-
>>starter.
>
>
> Sales volumes have been higher in the last couple of years when they had
> DVI with HDCP or HDMI, haven't they? Compared to the first few years
> HDTVs were sold that is?
>
> A lot of the buyers of these newer sets with DVI or HDMI are the same
> early adopters who bought the first HDTV sets.

Even if 75% of sets have a single HDMI input by the time HD on DVD is
released, cutting out 25%+ of your potential market is just plain dumb.
This is especially true because the market is so small. HD on DVD could
follow the path of VOOM or do it right.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

poldy (poldy@kfu.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> Is there any question that studios want protected outputs for HD streams?

Actually, there is.

They definitely want protected recordable digital outputs (FireWire, etc.),
but only their lack of understanding has led to protected non-recordable
digital outputs.

Now, since the number of displays with digital video inputs but without
HDCP really is miniscule (mostly "computer" displays), I don't think
requiring protected digital video outputs is much of a burden on the
consumer.

But, not supporting component video at full resolution gains them zero in
the way of copy protection, but *will* piss off at least some consumers,
and that number may be significant enough that they decide that it is a bad
idea.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/OverTheHedge/Macarena.gif

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Man you might be viewing the HD content but it aint HD on your set

Unless yoru set can do 720pp or 1080i. And you wont beable to play HD
moviesin HD on a disc Bluray, HD DVD ect unless you have HDMI or
Atleast DVI.

You might be able to view them with a converter or maybe even if they
include comonate on the players but it wont be in HD.

Oh well.



On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 05:54:24 -0400, "Matthew L. Martin"
<nothere@notnow.never> wrote:

>poldy wrote:
>> In article <MPG.1d043cf0bf167c15989d85@news.nabs.net>,
>> Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Although new sets sold will have them, the majority of sets in use will not.
>>>In addition, the sets that do not have them are those of early adopters,
>>>who are the people who spend the money and influence buying decisions of
>>>the rest of the population. If those early adopters say "no, don't buy
>>>this" to their friends, HD-DVD (with whatever disc format) will be a non-
>>>starter.
>>
>>
>> Sales volumes have been higher in the last couple of years when they had
>> DVI with HDCP or HDMI, haven't they? Compared to the first few years
>> HDTVs were sold that is?
>>
>> A lot of the buyers of these newer sets with DVI or HDMI are the same
>> early adopters who bought the first HDTV sets.
>
>Even if 75% of sets have a single HDMI input by the time HD on DVD is
>released, cutting out 25%+ of your potential market is just plain dumb.
>This is especially true because the market is so small. HD on DVD could
>follow the path of VOOM or do it right.
>
>Matthew

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

> I just love it. The rest of the world is making progress in television
> but the movie industry wants to keep us in the dark ages. They should
> realize by now that for every protection scheme they devise, someone will
> counter it.
>
> Besides, I thought the Supreme Court recently declared the broadcast flag
> unconstitutional?

No, they just ruled that the FCC does not have the authority to impose it
without a law being passed by Congress.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Alan Figgatt wrote:
> Steve K. wrote:
>
>> On Holidays wrote:
>>
>>> So if you don't have DVI or HDMI now. Your screwed if you bough a big
>>> screen TV and said to yourslef this will do me for years and years. It
>>> probably will unless you don't want HD movies.
>>
>>
>>
>> Been years and years so far. Since 2001 when I bought my HDTV (not
>> HD-Ready) using satellite and broadcast I've watched lots HD movies so
>> far without DVI or HDMI. Gonna be years and years more too! Works
>> just fine!
>
>
> You are writing about the satellite and broadcast channels. Which for
> the foreseeable future the Set Top Boxes will provide HD over analog
> component as well as DVI or HDMI if they are so equipped and enabled.
> The issue is with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players most of which are likely to
> only send HD (720 or 1080) out the HDMI ports so the copy protection
> flags can be applied. The component port on the the HD players will
> likely only do 480p.
>
> The studios have pressed the FCC to consider requiring the cable &
> satellite companies to someday down-rezz all the component output on
> their STBs to 480p to enforce copy protection schemes. So far this has
> not gotten much traction as a lot of the installed cable STBs don't even
> have a digital DVI or HDMI port or have it enabled if they do. Then
> there the confusion factor with the general public who would to be
> informed that in order to keep getting HD, they have to rewire their AV
> setup. That is assuming they understand how to get HD in the first
> place. But in a few years, down-rezzing of the component output may
> start showing up.
>
> Alan F
>

All pie in the sky Allan! It works just fine now. I'll bet it will
work just fine in the future. Many "someday's" and "maybe's" and
"possibly's" have already come and gone, meanwhile I have had an HDTV
for years now that has worked just fine.

If it lasts another 5 years, then maybe I'll consider something new
then! That would be about 10 years of HDTV . Not bad.


Steve