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AMD Phenom CPUs to see further delays? (Digitimes)

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December 24, 2007 5:51:14 AM

http://www.digitimes.com/mobos/a20071224PD200.html

Quote:
AMD has recently notified its partners that the launch of higher-end quad-core Phenom processors, including the 9700 and 9900, will be postponed to the second quarter of 2008 from the original schedule of early 2008, according to sources at motherboard makers.

However, whether AMD's triple-core Toliman series CPUs will also see delay will be the key decision for the company, since Toliman offers a high price/performance ratio compared with Intel's quad-core CPUs. A delay for Toliman will hurt AMD the most, noted the sources.

The sources commented that the reason for the delay of 9700 and 9900 is because AMD has not yet been able to solve the translation lookaside buffer (TLB) erratum found in the chips. However, they added in saying that, in the long-term, AMD's decision is correct since pushing products that are not ready will only hurt the company more.

AMD declined to comment on this report. The company pointed out that it has not made any official announcement regarding a delay of the mentioned CPUs.


So AMD claims they need over 6 months just to get rid of the TLB bug?! Or is the real reason poor yields at the higher clockspeeds?

More about : amd phenom cpus delays digitimes

December 24, 2007 6:38:39 AM

why the hell are they delaying cut down quad cores?
i understand about the whole tlb effecting everything but it hasent stoped them from shipping low end desktop quads,
are they trying to sink the company?
liek OMG WTF.

a b à CPUs
December 24, 2007 11:11:44 AM

Better get a Phenom now ... might be a collector's piece in years to follow.

Or maybe they are now getting really cautious so as not to trip up ?

Or maybe they have respun some magic and about to unleash an astonishing miracle on us all?

Or maybe Digi are just spinning some Fuad?

Glad Toms and Anand are just looking at the facts ... Iv'e had enough of the dribble from tertiary sources that seem to know diddly.

One thing is for sure and that is a 280mm or so core must be difficult to make - only Intel's Pressler and Gallatin were this big (apart from AMD's first real core way back) and they generated heaps of heat. Mind you they were also 65nm and faster too.
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December 24, 2007 11:23:54 AM

AMD stock two for a penny... anyone? :) 

I don't think I've ever seen a company shoot itself in the foot so many times over and over again as AMD has done in the past 18 months. It's a wonder that theyre still alive. If it was any other company Wall St would have beat it into the ground, but for some unknown reason its an investors darlin! It's going to be really fun to see Phinally Phixed Phreakinphenom debut just ahead of Nehalem, an arch that is going to make it look like a 486! :) 
a b à CPUs
December 24, 2007 12:01:58 PM

And the fastest 486 was an AMD from memory.

5x86133 ... clocked to 160.

Kept up with my mate's Pentium 75 / 90 ... his cost 6 times the price of my build.

386DX - 40 (AMD again)

P4 ... hello welcome to Thunderbird ... then A64 ... then X2.

Intel has only just gotten well and truly in front with the Core2 design ... built largely on the discarded P3 and mobile architectures with some brilliant cache re-engineering from those Israeli geniuses.

AMD hasn't got an answer yet ... a tricked up K8 just doesn't cut it ... even when 4 cores are snug as a rug on the same die.

They need to spend more money on R&D ... bit hard when your broke tho.

Intel will probably go back to sleep otherwise ... you will see speed grades in 10Mhz steps unless AMD survives.
December 24, 2007 12:33:22 PM

This may be due to a lack of in-depth CPU manufacturing knowledge, but I don't understand why the issue would only affect chips at certain clock speeds.

Deleted

I agree with others that this is probably yeild issues, not TLB issues. AMD has shown that faulty chips won't stop them from shipping Phenoms to the consumers.
December 24, 2007 12:50:01 PM

guys, a friend of mine in Idaho decided to buy a house at zero down. $350K when he was making barely $30K a year. Some criminal moron let him have the loan and a couple of years later he became just another statistic in the subprime mess. Now he's sleping on his moms sofa. Why the story? It's the same thing with AMD. Who the PhreakinPhenomHell ever told Hector the lunatic to go buy a company (ATI) that he couldnt afford? Fusion my a$$. You don't take on a $350K mortgage when you can barely pay your rent and you dont go swallow up a $6B company when you know your goin down the craper and your market cap will equal your buy in a year. And yes they did know it because there is no way that they were bilsfuly ignorant even back then that their roadmap was scifi. Yeild, TLb, whatever it was or is, I'm sure that there are plenty of PhDs at AMD who could have told Hector that what he wanted to do was unaffordable and technically too difficult. So instead of hunkerin down and concentrating on a strong mid and low market, they had to go out and blow up their own company by creating the utlimate chip... 40% clock on clock on Clovertown... blablabla. hector did this already in his last job so hes just doing it again. Corporate America is the only place where the more incompetent you are the more money you make and the better jobs you get.

Sure, AMD was a great copany and they made great chips. So what? Change one letter and you have AMC. They made some great cars too... the AMX was a killer musclecar. Then they started making Gremilins, Matadors and Pacers. Then they died. They desreved to die. Because they sucked. You can't live on your laurles of what you made that was great a decade ago. What's on the market now? Nuthin? Then you suck.

At least AMC didnt ship out Pacers with engines that were known to be faulty. AMD is! where the hell is the class action suit? If some manufacturer puts out a widget that doesn't work as advertised they are going to get crucefied. Why does the same not apply to AMD? Is ti because Wall St realizes that if they croak then Intel gets a monopoly and all hell breaks loose? There have got to be mroe reasons than that! Wall st is a free market system. They love to see the good rise and the bad fall. Why would they be subsedezing acknoledged bad managment? It's a mystery to me!

All I know is that Phenoms suck, and until B3 comes out as late as six months from now, they will continue to suck and if anyone asks me if they shoudl buy one I'll continue to tell them that they should have their PhreakinPhenom heads examined.

December 24, 2007 12:50:01 PM

Responding to Reynod:

I agree with you. Everybody, look at the size of Intel's R&D departments around the world and then compare that to the few noobs AMD has running around in their little lab. Intel is simply a giant compared to AMD in terms of budget and manpower. They have R&D departments all over working on multiple projects at one time. AMD is a fraction of their size and was, and still is, the underdog. People don't understand that AMD was never an equal to Intel in terms of their ability to create new designs. I'll blame AMD fully for not growing more than they did in the few years they were on top. I guess Hector thought they could skate on by with their small company staying the small (relative to Intel's size).

AMD's only hope is that Intel will "go to sleep" and the giant is already showing signs of that. They could have already released a slew of new CPU's but they recently decided to wait a little. Their reasoning was that they did not have ANY competition in AMD. Intel has proven again that they won't come out with new products in a timely manner without competition. You Intel guys better pray AMD survives just to make sure Nehalem makes it out LOL...
December 24, 2007 12:55:30 PM

I agree with you wingless. Why should Intel spend billinos on R&D for 32 and 22 nm chips when they can just keep selling the stuff they have now? Competition is the basis for inovation! But that does not mean that AMD has a licence to be incompetent jerks. The way it is now, the monopoly has already started. AMD simply does not exist in the higher end market. At all. Just because a company is there and fills up space doesnt automaticaly make it competition. they have to compete. AMD is not competing right now. Just cruising for a buyout so that their fat cat board can all get golden parashutes and go out and ruin some other poor unsuspecting company. Damn, what a scam. Wish I could do that. Unfrotunately i actually have to work for a living!
December 24, 2007 1:54:55 PM

OlSkoolChopper said:
AMD is! where the hell is the class action suit?

Hell yeah! I could eat Baconators for a week with all of that cash :pt1cable: 
December 24, 2007 1:57:32 PM

homerdog said:
Hell yeah! I could eat Baconators for a week with all of that cash :pt1cable: 


Yeah you got a point. Only sue people who got the cash! :) 
December 24, 2007 2:02:11 PM

Quote:
Intel has only just gotten well and truly in front with the Core2 design ... built largely on the discarded P3 and mobile architectures with some brilliant cache re-engineering from those Israeli geniuses.

I think you mean to say this is the furthest AMD has ever been behind. Usually they release a matching generation architecture with superior performance than the 1- or 2-year-old Intel counterpart, and they can do this cheaply because of Moore's law. But they rarely released a top performer at the time. The 5x86-133 may have beaten P5-75, but in that same year Intel was selling P5-120s and P5-133s, also at stock. Why do you think the 5x86 cost so little?

To be fair, it's barely been 1.5 years since Conroe came out. AMD still has 6 months. But they appear strangely complacent. Perhaps they're content with more cores at lower clocks? I just feel that's the wrong approach, as cores don't scale perfectly, and people who buy so many cores also tend to want high per-core performance.
December 24, 2007 2:05:20 PM

Reynod said:
Better get a Phenom now ... might be a collector's piece in years to follow.

Or maybe they are now getting really cautious so as not to trip up ?

Or maybe they have respun some magic and about to unleash an astonishing miracle on us all?

Or maybe Digi are just spinning some Fuad?

Glad Toms and Anand are just looking at the facts ... Iv'e had enough of the dribble from tertiary sources that seem to know diddly.

One thing is for sure and that is a 280mm or so core must be difficult to make - only Intel's Pressler and Gallatin were this big (apart from AMD's first real core way back) and they generated heaps of heat. Mind you they were also 65nm and faster too.


Digitimes inst a tertiary source, and known to be fairly reliable. Their reports, along with HKPEC, are often the primary reference for many of both THGD and Anands reports, not to mention the Inq :sarcastic:  and many other sites.
December 24, 2007 2:05:40 PM

WR said:
Quote:
But they appear strangely complacent.
Quote:


i think that they're scared s***less. IMHO this is not part of a grand genius master plan. This is just a complete circlejerk that went way wrong and now everyone is scrambiling despirately to find a way to fix everything... and they dont know how.
December 24, 2007 2:06:38 PM

WR said:
To be fair, it's barely been 1.5 years since Conroe came out. AMD still has 6 months. But they appear strangely complacent. Perhaps they're content with more cores at lower clocks? I just feel that's the wrong approach, as cores don't scale perfectly, and people who buy so many cores also tend to want high per-core performance.


I don't really feel like they have six months. They need to start executing NOW. If this delay is true, it's not good for AMD.

I also recall BaronMatrix saying "2.5ghz by Christmas" or something like that. May I note that it simply did not happen on the server or desktop side.
December 24, 2007 2:13:09 PM

Quote:
I don't really feel like they have six months.

Right, any of their habitual delays are compounded by the red ink accompanying the ATI acquisition.

AMD's delay illustrates the challenges of debugging K10. Rumor is that TLB erratum is still there probably because they haven't fully characterized it and might be dealing with multiple bugs. It's just a very complex design. Four cores have to synchronize with each other and with an L3 cache/IMC. All five parts could be running different frequencies. To me it's a scheduling nightmare. And top this off with the largest die size around, meaning wire latencies are the highest ever.
December 24, 2007 2:15:56 PM

I click out of any thread that has DELETEDHey, Baron. Nothin personal. I'm sure your an OK guy (maybe). But the AMD is wonderful crap has to end sometime!
December 24, 2007 2:20:14 PM

But you have to respect Baron for being loyal :>
He is not a fair weather fan :>>

December 24, 2007 2:21:33 PM

TechnologyCoordinator said:
This may be due to a lack of in-depth CPU manufacturing knowledge, but I don't understand why the issue would only affect chips at certain clock speeds.

Deleted

I agree with others that this is probably yeild issues, not TLB issues. AMD has shown that faulty chips won't stop them from shipping Phenoms to the consumers.


Good lord I hope you were just kidding on that one.
December 24, 2007 2:26:10 PM

Zenmaster: Definitely not fair weather aroudn AMD lately. :)  I can respect anyone who holds any opinion and tries to back it up with facts. It's when they back it up with fantasy that I have a problem. Especialy when they pose as exprets on a widely read forum that lots of newbs read and take as gosple. Then they go out, make a stupid buy and end up geting screwed out of their hard earned money That's not fair. It might be nice to have a rating system automaticly inserted in your sig which notes every time you said something profondly dumb or wrong in your posts. (In that case I'd have the highest BAD rating on here!) :) 

All that being said, Baron, I'm like Will Rogers and I never met a man I didn't like. So let's be freinds, Merry Christmas, and I'll drink some eggnog and toast to your health tonight... after my head stops pounding from last nite. Hmm... maybe a bit of the hair of the dog might help... in that case, Baron, you might be geting your toast earlier! :) 

Who the f*** is Jumping Jack and where is he and why should he come back? I'm confused! :( 
December 24, 2007 2:26:55 PM

zenmaster said:
But you have to respect Baron for being loyal :>
He is not a fair weather fan :>>


No, I don't. I respect him as a human being. I'm sure he's a nice guy, he's got a job and doesn't live off the charity of the government. He seems intelligent (but misguided). I respect him for that.
December 24, 2007 2:36:35 PM

OlSkoolChopper said:
Who the PhreakinPhenomHell ever told Hector the lunatic to go buy a company (ATI) that he couldnt afford? Fusion my a$$. You don't take on a $350K mortgage when you can barely pay your rent and you dont go swallow up a $6B company when you know your goin down the craper and your market cap will equal your buy in a year. And yes they did know it because there is no way that they were bilsfuly ignorant even back then that their roadmap was scifi. Yeild, TLb, whatever it was or is, I'm sure that there are plenty of PhDs at AMD who could have told Hector that what he wanted to do was unaffordable and technically too difficult. So instead of hunkerin down and concentrating on a strong mid and low market, they had to go out and blow up their own company by creating the utlimate chip... 40% clock on clock on Clovertown... blablabla. hector did this already in his last job so hes just doing it again. Corporate America is the only place where the more incompetent you are the more money you make and the better jobs you get.

Sure, AMD was a great copany and they made great chips. So what? Change one letter and you have AMC. They made some great cars too... the AMX was a killer musclecar. Then they started making Gremilins, Matadors and Pacers. Then they died. They desreved to die. Because they sucked. You can't live on your laurles of what you made that was great a decade ago. What's on the market now? Nuthin? Then you suck.


Sorry, I have to disagree with you there. When AMD was contemplating the ATI buy, times were different. C2D wasnt on the markert yet, and Netburst was Intels primary offering. AMD was pushing towards 1/3 of the total market, taking share away from Intel every day and doing so with high ASPs/Margins. To go further, the platform concept was a natural and wise progression. As the actual purchase date of ATI closed, reports of C2Ds perfromance were filtering out onto the web, but, for all AMD (or any one for that matter) might have known, it could have been another netburst, which is to say, absolutely no threat to AMDs K8 product line. At that point, Intels offerings sucked. And remember, those offerings (Netburst) were developed by Intels R&D, so for all its much vaunted R&D, Intel still produced a chunk of garbage. Anyone can make a mistake, and everyone does. Netburst was one of Intels many mistakes, and set the stage for AMD to become a serious threat.

The question still remains, at the time of purchase, did AMD actually know that C2D was as good as Intel claimed, or did they believe the claims to be as hollow as Intels Netburst claims? If they did believe Intel was spewing more BS, there was no reason for them not to buy ATI. If they knew the C2D was an actual threat, then the purchase was a gamble, but still one they would have had to make sooner or later. Here, at THGF, people look at the platform concept from their perspective....enthusiast perfromance. But AMD didnt buy ATI to make a few platfoirms for a handfull of enthusiasts. They bought it to make platforms in the 100s of thousands for enterprise, and for mobile, where the money really is.

The ATI purchase was a good idea, but the timing was all wrong, and not because of AMDs financial situation, or their product line at the time, (both of which were then on very solid ground) but because of the soon to be proven C2D, and the prices which Intel was charging for it.
December 24, 2007 2:43:26 PM

turpit you make excelent points and I respect that. My problem is that I figure that any multibilion dollar multinational corporation has to have some measure of "intel"igence on its only competitor and they have to know more or less whats coming up. CPU building is a long proces whihc takes a lot of time and research and develpment. They couldnt not have had a single clue as to what Conroe was going to be, and they couldnt also have had no idea that their then-very-ambitius roadmaps were unachevable. Hitech doesnt work on "wishing and hoping" but on huge freakin expeditures. Wasnt anyone on the AMD board awake when they decided to ruin themselves in debt to buy out ATI?
December 24, 2007 3:24:42 PM

I remember when C2D was announced, we called it "Conroe". I was one of the doubters and shouted out:

THIRD PARTY BENCHMARKS


Intel provided them (gave the chips to reviewers) before launch and then I was convinced.
December 24, 2007 3:27:21 PM

caamsa your an old hand and I'm a newb wrench twirler who was too busy in school gettin laid to pay any attention to clases. So I'm sure youve forgoten more stuff about technology than I'll ever know. My opinion aint worth much but the way I figure it the news is finally out about the B3 in six or maybe nine months and Wall St is reacting even on what could be the ligthest trading day of the year. Down 20 cents in an hour. AMD might not be able to aford oats soon, except those that have already gone through the horse!!! :) 
December 24, 2007 3:28:23 PM

OlSkoolChopper said:
turpit you make excelent points and I respect that. My problem is that I figure that any multibilion dollar multinational corporation has to have some measure of "intel"igence on its only competitor and they have to know more or less whats coming up. CPU building is a long proces whihc takes a lot of time and research and develpment. They couldnt not have had a single clue as to what Conroe was going to be, and they couldnt also have had no idea that their then-very-ambitius roadmaps were unachevable. Hitech doesnt work on "wishing and hoping" but on huge freakin expeditures. Wasnt anyone on the AMD board awake when they decided to ruin themselves in debt to buy out ATI?



I agree, but then again, remember, Intel succesfully hawked crappy netbursts to a generally unkowning public for years. Who was to say they wouldnt continue, if there was no reason to change? Dont get me wrong. Im not saying AMD did or didnt know. I dont know, and I doubt anyone at AMD will ever admit the truth. But given Intels modus operandi during the netburst years, how much incentive was there for AMD to pay attention? The situation provided a opportunity form AMD to very easily slip into complacency....the doddering goliath tripping at every turn allowing the more nible AMD to run circles around it. I know that many, myself included, expected C2D to be another piece of garbage. Given AMDs arrogance (see anything ever said by Henri Richard), I can see them ignoring C2D. That doesnt mean its so, just that its a possibility.

Some other possibilities:
-AMD knew C2D was good, but seeing how Intel had succesfully marketed Netburst, expected to continue selling K8s in the same manner as Intel sold netburst.
-AMD knew C2D was good, but expected Intels Netburst reptation to plague them indefinately.

There are so many different posibilities, and in any of them, AMD somehow made a mistake. But given Intels blundering during Netburst, its easy to see how the stage was set. Ive said it before, and Ill say it again. 2006/2007 have been a greek tragedy for AMD courtesy of C2D. Damned if they did, Damned if they didnt.

Also remember, AMDs roadmaps werent that agressive back then. According to their pre C2D roadmaps, if I recall correctly, 939 would still be around today, the quad wouldnt be here just yet & fusion didnt even exist except as future developemental concept. Their roadmaps changed as they responded to C2D.
December 24, 2007 3:31:20 PM

homerdog said:
Hell yeah! I could eat Baconators for a week with all of that cash :pt1cable: 

LOL, stay away from those things, I had one for lunch and felt som guilty i did 2 hours of cardio
December 24, 2007 3:31:56 PM

TechnologyCoordinator said:
I remember when C2D was announced, we called it "Conroe". I was one of the doubters and shouted out:

THIRD PARTY BENCHMARKS


Intel provided them (gave the chips to reviewers) before launch and then I was convinced.


Hey, AMD gave chips to reviewers too. Phenoms were available in Lake Tahoe to reporrters who were allowed to actually use them in specific and strictly defined ways before they went home to review handpiced ES chips and report how wondreful they were even though they had about as much asociation with the real thing as I do with Arlen Ness.

Where I come from that's called a scam. I dunno why AMD has to be considred an upstanding corporate citizen for doing that.

If I pulled somthing like that on one of my clients I'd end up with a shiv in my a$$. :fou: 
December 24, 2007 3:34:30 PM

zenmaster said:
But you have to respect Baron for being loyal :>
He is not a fair weather fan :>>
BaronMatrix is a diehard amd fan, I am too to a point, I've reached that point, My next processor is gonna be a q6600, so look for my 5600x2 and mobo on craiglist soon if you are in michigan.
December 24, 2007 3:48:23 PM

reconviperone, 200 hours of cardio arent going to remove the gobs of fat from your arteries after a Baconator. Dave Thomas may not have looked like it, but I'm sure he was the devil! :) 

turpit, the job of a very highly paid board is to keep the copmany from devistating shareholder value. It's their job to know, otherwise they would just have the boardroom stocked with guys from Wendys who sell Baconators in the evenings. At least Enron and WroldCom board guys got big bux to look the other way. AMD's board looked the other way because if you gave them a dollar they still couldnt buy a clue. I might as well have decided to buy out Harley by returning my beer bottles as AMD decided to buy out a bigger and healthyer company (or at least one that WAS). I think that the curent agrement is that Richard was a mouthpeice for Ruiz. Hecotr's the main problem because the fish always stinks from the head down!

Damned if you do and dont... I dont know if I agree. If I was runing AMD in the pre ATI buy days, I woulda attempted a scorched earth policy in the Semporn (sp) market by pricing Intel into the weeds, forgot about the middle, and then put every dime into the top end server market where they already had a great postion and by extinsion the enthusast market.

Then agin I'm just a wrenchtwirler! :) 
December 24, 2007 3:52:32 PM

turpit said:
Sorry, I have to disagree with you there. When AMD was contemplating the ATI buy, times were different. C2D wasnt on the markert yet, and Netburst was Intels primary offering. AMD was pushing towards 1/3 of the total market, taking share away from Intel every day and doing so with high ASPs/Margins. To go further, the platform concept was a natural and wise progression. As the actual purchase date of ATI closed, reports of C2Ds perfromance were filtering out onto the web, but, for all AMD (or any one for that matter) might have known, it could have been another netburst, which is to say, absolutely no threat to AMDs K8 product line. At that point, Intels offerings sucked. And remember, those offerings (Netburst) were developed by Intels R&D, so for all its much vaunted R&D, Intel still produced a chunk of garbage. Anyone can make a mistake, and everyone does. Netburst was one of Intels many mistakes, and set the stage for AMD to become a serious threat.

The question still remains, at the time of purchase, did AMD actually know that C2D was as good as Intel claimed, or did they believe the claims to be as hollow as Intels Netburst claims? If they did believe Intel was spewing more BS, there was no reason for them not to buy ATI. If they knew the C2D was an actual threat, then the purchase was a gamble, but still one they would have had to make sooner or later. Here, at THGF, people look at the platform concept from their perspective....enthusiast perfromance. But AMD didnt buy ATI to make a few platfoirms for a handfull of enthusiasts. They bought it to make platforms in the 100s of thousands for enterprise, and for mobile, where the money really is.

The ATI purchase was a good idea, but the timing was all wrong, and not because of AMDs financial situation, or their product line at the time, (both of which were then on very solid ground) but because of the soon to be proven C2D, and the prices which Intel was charging for it.

This was a good read.Let me also add that amd was growing more and more dependent on Nvidia which was not a good place to be since nvidia has no loyalty to amd.Intel was also concidering buying ati and amd new ,so that could be a good reason why amd paid so much.
December 24, 2007 4:02:26 PM

ro3dog said:
Intel was also concidering buying ati and amd new ,so that could be a good reason why amd paid so much.


That's like getting caught up in an ebay auction with shill bids and paying $400 for a $150 tool kit! You'd think that croporate execs wouldn't be quite that stupid! :lol: 
December 24, 2007 4:13:47 PM

AMD have done so much for computer CPU technology and have proven to be more skilled than Intel over the years. Intel had a lucky break with C2D, even so C2D is expensive for small performance gains over much cheaper AMD‘s. Intel C2D is also known to Freeze vista randomly and cannot compete with AMD where 64Bit computing is concerned.
Intel are now out of ideas and AMD are now fighting back with a true Quad core the Phenom Predecessor. Intel know they are going to look weak if they continue to offer Double cheese burger quads, so they have decided to cheat and copy AMD’s native design for their own Native Quad core. Intel have renamed Hyper transport to ‘Quick Path’ but they are fooling nobody.
When you bash AMD just remember it’s not good to bite the hand that feeds.

AMD for Fast Computing! Native Quad Design! Intel Copy and Cheat! Intel are very Evil!
December 24, 2007 4:15:54 PM

thunderman said:
AMD have done so much for computer CPU technology and have proven to be more skilled than Intel over the years. Intel had a lucky break with C2D, even so C2D is expensive for small performance gains over much cheaper AMD‘s. Intel C2D is also known to Freeze vista randomly and cannot compete with AMD where 64Bit computing is concerned.
Intel are now out of ideas and AMD are now fighting back with a true Quad core the Phenom Predecessor. Intel know they are going to look weak if they continue to offer Double cheese burger quads, so they have decided to cheat and copy AMD’s native design for their own Native Quad core. Intel have renamed Hyper transport to ‘Quick Path’ but they are fooling nobody.
When you bash AMD just remember it’s not good to bite the hand that feeds.

AMD for Fast Computing! Native Quad Design! Intel Copy and Cheat! Intel are very Evil!


Resisting urge... Resisting urge...

I take it you're posting here because Sharikou has basically shut his site down since the Phenom release?

You're either very ignorant or you're flame-baiting. Regardless, I won't even try to respond to that because I'll only play cards if the dealer is using a full deck.
December 24, 2007 4:20:52 PM

You had better all pray AMD is ok in a year. Empires always fail. Intel is running full speed into the 3rd world. Hell they are plowing over and shutting down charity orgs that supply the poor markets with computers all in the name of $$. Eat it up because there is a good chance inside of 2 years you could be paying 5x as much for your Q6600s.
December 24, 2007 4:21:57 PM

"The Raiders have done so much for the NFL and have proven to be more skilled than the Patriots over the years. The Patriots had a lucky break with 3 SuperBowl Rings, even so the Patriots have small performance gains over much better Raiders. The Patriots' Foxboro Field is also known to Freeze randomly and cannot compete with the Raiders where commitment to excellence is concerned."

Now do you see how stupid you sound?:) 
December 24, 2007 4:38:34 PM

While the TLB bug doesn't have much of an impact on consumers AMD is forced to replace the server versions. The B3 will go that way first as it does impact their server line. There is more money to be made in the server version so AMD has to move quickly to fix this or risk losing major corporate backers. Consumers may at best see a Toliman b3's early because there wouldn't be a market for tri cores for servers.
December 24, 2007 4:39:07 PM

OlSkoolChopper said:


turpit, the job of a very highly paid board is to keep the copmany from devistating shareholder value. It's their job to know, otherwise they would just have the boardroom stocked with guys from Wendys who sell Baconators in the evenings. At least Enron and WroldCom board guys got big bux to look the other way. AMD's board looked the other way because if you gave them a dollar they still couldnt buy a clue.


Absolutely, that is certainly one of the main purposes of a BOD. But ask yourself this: If AMDs board was foolish enough to buy ATI at a time they shouldnt have, as you propose, why couldnt they have been foolish enough to not pay attention to C2D? Clearly, AMDs BOD made a foolish error, but where? Intel had certainly given AMD no cause to believe C2D would be anything other than another netburst....another crappy product supported by hollow promises and clever marketing and ultimately, nothing to worry about.

Dont get me wrong, Im not saying Im right and your not, Im saying the situation was so muddled that anyone of a dozen possibilities could have occured, and given the poor judgement and arrogance AMDs leadership has demonstrated, each possibility is as likely as the next.



OlSkoolChopper said:

Damned if you do and dont... I dont know if I agree. If I was runing AMD in the pre ATI buy days, I woulda attempted a scorched earth policy in the Semporn (sp) market by pricing Intel into the weeds, forgot about the middle, and then put every dime into the top end server market where they already had a great postion and by extinsion the enthusast market.

Then agin I'm just a wrenchtwirler! :) 


Ahh, but could they have? Remember, regardless of what AMD wanted to do, they were capacity constrained. The most they could have taken at the time was a third of the total market (and thats with Chartered), and realistically, not even that much with them at 90nm (at the time) and Intel already at 65nm. They could not have underpriced Intel and survived long....we are seeing proof of that now as they continually lose money each quarter, even with their marketshare once again climbing towards 1/3 total share/ Why? Lower margins. AMD never had Intels financial foundation....they couldnt survive operating at that big of a loss for the time it would have taken to unseat Intel, and by abandoning all other markets to focus on one, they would have left Intel in the hugely advantaguous position of being the sole provider in those markets....able to dictate prices in those other markets....meaning Intel could have bled those markets for cash, unopposed, to offset any losses in the server market, thus allowing them to go toe to toe with AMD in pricing. Even if AMD had a vastly superior product, abandoning DT and mobile would have afforded Intel the opportunity to underprice AMD sufficiently to hold share. Hell....if Intel really wanted to, they could drop prices even lower right now...low enough to force AMD into BK...but if they did that in the current situation, they would have SEC and DOJ down on them in a second.

Focusing on one market, the server market, would have been costly in other ways as well. AMDs main marketing tool in those days was here, THG, and Anands, extremePC, etc...the tech sites, forums, and word of mouth. AMD learned the hard way, last year, the cost of forsaking the channel, and they publically admited it.

I know it sounds good on the surface, concentratining all efforts in one area, but IMO for AMD, as the sole significant, and smaller competitor in the market, abandoning DT and mobile to Intel would have been granting Intel a unique opportunity....licence to kill.
December 24, 2007 4:54:43 PM

Turpit, dude, I know one thing. If there had been a few guys like you, zenmaster, TC, roadrunner and some others on this forum on the AMD board, Intel would be looking at getting out of the chip business and into fish and chips. :) 

It seems to me a mystery why some guys like you guys who are not geting any compensetion (other than the honor and privilidge of talking with wonderful brainiac guys like me... heheh) for analysing the CPU market day after day on this board aren't on a real board! You guys rule! A huge Christmas toast to you all! Merry Christmas, Live Long And Prospre, and all the other good wishes! Keep up the great work! You all pwn! :) 

December 24, 2007 5:04:48 PM

TechnologyCoordinator said:
Regardless, I won't even try to respond to that because I'll only play cards if the dealer is using a full deck.


Now that's a good one.
December 24, 2007 5:10:20 PM

Quote:
The sources commented that the reason for the delay of 9700 and 9900 is because AMD has not yet been able to solve the translation lookaside buffer (TLB) erratum found in the chips. However, they added in saying that, in the long-term, AMD's decision is correct since pushing products that are not ready will only hurt the company more.


Random question.. if this was the case does that mean the B3 fix still has the same errata?
December 24, 2007 5:19:21 PM

elbert said:
While the TLB bug doesn't have much of an impact on consumers AMD is forced to replace the server versions.


Doesnt it? Im not convinced the problem isnt worse than AMD let on, or there isnt something else wrong. It doesnt make sence to pull the 9700s if the TLB issue wasnt that bad, and was easliy fixable.

On the server note, your statement makes good solid sence, but still, why pull 9700 and go fire sale on the 9500/9600s if the TLB issue was as minor as so many seem to be trying to make it out? Not logical.
December 24, 2007 5:32:32 PM

OlSkoolChopper said:
guys, a friend of mine in Idaho decided to buy a house at zero down. $350K when he was making barely $30K a year. Some criminal moron let him have the loan and a couple of years later he became just another statistic in the subprime mess. Now he's sleping on his moms sofa. Why the story? It's the same thing with AMD. Who the PhreakinPhenomHell ever told Hector the lunatic to go buy a company (ATI) that he couldnt afford? Fusion my a$$. You don't take on a $350K mortgage when you can barely pay your rent and you dont go swallow up a $6B company when you know your goin down the craper and your market cap will equal your buy in a year. And yes they did know it because there is no way that they were bilsfuly ignorant even back then that their roadmap was scifi. Yeild, TLb, whatever it was or is, I'm sure that there are plenty of PhDs at AMD who could have told Hector that what he wanted to do was unaffordable and technically too difficult. So instead of hunkerin down and concentrating on a strong mid and low market, they had to go out and blow up their own company by creating the utlimate chip... 40% clock on clock on Clovertown... blablabla. hector did this already in his last job so hes just doing it again. Corporate America is the only place where the more incompetent you are the more money you make and the better jobs you get.

Sure, AMD was a great copany and they made great chips. So what? Change one letter and you have AMC. They made some great cars too... the AMX was a killer musclecar. Then they started making Gremilins, Matadors and Pacers. Then they died. They desreved to die. Because they sucked. You can't live on your laurles of what you made that was great a decade ago. What's on the market now? Nuthin? Then you suck.

At least AMC didnt ship out Pacers with engines that were known to be faulty. AMD is! where the hell is the class action suit? If some manufacturer puts out a widget that doesn't work as advertised they are going to get crucefied. Why does the same not apply to AMD? Is ti because Wall St realizes that if they croak then Intel gets a monopoly and all hell breaks loose? There have got to be mroe reasons than that! Wall st is a free market system. They love to see the good rise and the bad fall. Why would they be subsedezing acknoledged bad managment? It's a mystery to me!

All I know is that Phenoms suck, and until B3 comes out as late as six months from now, they will continue to suck and if anyone asks me if they shoudl buy one I'll continue to tell them that they should have their PhreakinPhenom heads examined.



by any chance.. what if hector actually knew AMD was gonna get totally trashed, and needed ATI to survive ( ie, to keep as much money going in as possible ) to fix the mess of the phenom.
December 24, 2007 5:34:48 PM

A source I trust emplicitly has told me that the bugs in Phenom are so extinsive that they need to virtualy reengineer the chip.

Please note that the source is this pink elephant that's been folowing me around since last nite's bender. Still, I think he's not that far off! :) 

Tamalero, ATI has been a net cash drain sicne purchase, so I think that's just another theory of "Hector's aleged genius" that holds as much water as a chick about to pop a kid. :) 

BTW, I'll have one with black beans and pasilla de oaxaca with some extra pico de gallo on the side, hermano. :) 
December 24, 2007 5:41:49 PM

you want with some habaneros?
December 24, 2007 6:09:11 PM

Homey, bury it with lotsa Naga Jolokia habaneros because I want to shoot fire... out both ends! :) 
December 24, 2007 6:11:58 PM

cnumartyr said:
Quote:
The sources commented that the reason for the delay of 9700 and 9900 is because AMD has not yet been able to solve the translation lookaside buffer (TLB) erratum found in the chips. However, they added in saying that, in the long-term, AMD's decision is correct since pushing products that are not ready will only hurt the company more.


Random question.. if this was the case does that mean the B3 fix still has the same errata?


*IF* that is the case, then, yes. B3 did not solve the problem. It would also add ~10 weeks to the schedule. And would account for the extended delay, and you'll see a B4/C0 stepping soon.

*IF* that is the case.
December 24, 2007 6:14:15 PM

*IF* that's the case... add 10 weeks to Q2 (maybe Q3) and you end up right in the front foyer of Nehalem. G-d help them...
December 24, 2007 6:17:14 PM

Intel is simply a monster when it comes to R&D and product portfolio. AMD is struggling to release a single product, where Intel can simply grab something "off the shelf" and release it.

I have a friend who works at the Intel fab in Arizona. He tells me that Intel has several advantages over AMD. The first, is that each Intel fab is consutructed exactly the same, which makes upgrading and refining their processes much easier and faster. If they find that something works really well in a fab, they can quickly modify the other fabs to keep pace.
The second, is that at any given time, Intel has at least three new generations of product refined and ready to hit market within 3-6 months if they so desire to do so. Intel sits on a lot of product, with no real reason to release anything unless they feel pushed to do so. This is why it is imperative that AMD survive and refine Phenom so that Intel is pushed to continue to release new products. Otherwise it will be the good ole' days of the Pentium 2, where the cost difference was immense for a difference of 33 mhz
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