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Beyond Nehalem and Fusion where does NVIDIA fit in?

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December 21, 2007 9:34:02 PM

Greetings,

Now that Phenom and Penryn and soon NVIDIA's D9E are upon us and since Nehalem and Fusion are coming "soon" where does this direction for the CPU giants leave NVIDIA? Considering that the AMD aquistion of ATI is beginning to strip NVIDIA of AMD customer access and their percentage of the market what will NVIDIA do to remain not just viable but desireable? Will Nehalem and Fusion be able to deliver enthusist level graphics or will NVIDIA still have a place in the market?

What are your thoughts?
December 21, 2007 10:07:08 PM

Nehalem doesnt get rid of graphics cards so there will still be a great need for Nvidia
December 21, 2007 10:38:50 PM

Since Nvidia's squabble with Intel, Nvidia is finding itself increasingly alone. It produces great cards, as I have them in all three of my computers, but when it comes to using multiple cards, its sitting by itself. If Intel refuses to license Nvidia for new chipsets, and AMD/ATI does the same, Nvidia might be out to lunch for new chipset designs. Don't know, can't say for sure. But if it happens, then the days of SLI may not be long.
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December 21, 2007 10:40:39 PM

There will be a need for more power..... Always! Until we have like 1000 cores all running at 10,000mhz anyways =D

Sure, fusion might have some graphical prowess..... But it won't be long before after it's release that we need MORE graphics power then what it can offer..... And I highly doubt that fusion will be more graphical capable then the stand alone GPU cards NV will probably have available at that time anyways.
December 21, 2007 10:44:27 PM

gamebro said:
And I highly doubt that fusion will be more graphical capable then the stand alone GPU cards NV will probably have available at that time anyways.


Good point. Even if Fusion is good when it appears, it will probably be quickly outclassed and a stand alone video card will be needed. Kind of similar to so many motherboards having built in sound, but for better sound, a separate sound card is still needed.
a b U Graphics card
December 21, 2007 11:08:17 PM

^Agreed
December 22, 2007 3:34:59 AM

Sailer--

I was thinking more like Motherboards that have a build in 3d card...
They certainly don't pwn standalone video cards! =D
December 22, 2007 5:28:19 AM

guys, isnt fusion just a low end part? :|
why everyone says a lot of stuff about fusion like it was a super high end video card...
btw, I suppose Larrabee from intel will be a core-based gpu for raytracing insteat of classic raster?
a c 355 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
December 22, 2007 5:41:54 AM

Fusion is for laptops.
December 22, 2007 5:56:57 AM

gamebro said:
Sailer--

I was thinking more like Motherboards that have a build in 3d card...
They certainly don't pwn standalone video cards! =D


You're right, they don't. E-Machines and such have built in cards now, but they're slow and can't stand up to a game very well. There's no substitute for a stand alone card from ATI, Nvidia, or whoever. It will be the same with a CPU that also contains a GPU. It may work, but it won't stand up against a separate card.
December 22, 2007 6:45:11 PM

It is my understanding that both Fusion and Penryn are transition products. Fusion will integrate the GPU and CPU into what AMD calls the APU (accelerated processing unit). AMD will then integrate the chipset logic when Swift is introduced. Once the buses are on the die won't this provide a significant advantage over add in solutions?

We really can't compare existing intergrated graphics motherboards to what Fusion and Nehalem reprensent they are entirely different and are more about putting the whole motherboard on a single chip.

Intel will integrate the GPU with Nehalem along with the long awaited memory controller integration, while both Fusion and early Nehalem parts with a integrated GPU may likely be laptop and CE products it seems clear that at least AMD will be looking to expand Swift beyond those markets into mainstream and enthusists markets. I would expect that Intel will follow suit and integrate the logic chipset as well.

This is when it occurred to me that NVIDIA might find themselves on the outside looking in. What market will be left for them as they are already being removed from AMD customer access since the aquistion of ATI?

The landscape does appear to be changing, thoughts?
December 22, 2007 7:26:41 PM

baseline said:
It is my understanding that both Fusion and Penryn are transition products. Fusion will integrate the GPU and CPU into what AMD calls the APU (accelerated processing unit). AMD will then integrate the chipset logic when Swift is introduced. Once the buses are on the die won't this provide a significant advantage over add in solutions?

We really can't compare existing intergrated graphics motherboards to what Fusion and Nehalem reprensent they are entirely different and are more about putting the whole motherboard on a single chip.

Intel will integrate the GPU with Nehalem along with the long awaited memory controller integration, while both Fusion and early Nehalem parts with a integrated GPU may likely be laptop and CE products it seems clear that at least AMD will be looking to expand Swift beyond those markets into mainstream and enthusists markets. I would expect that Intel will follow suit and integrate the logic chipset as well.

This is when it occurred to me that NVIDIA might find themselves on the outside looking in. What market will be left for them as they are already being removed from AMD customer access since the aquistion of ATI?

The landscape does appear to be changing, thoughts?

This in no way will replace the stand alone video cards. APU is a some what of a weak integrated graphics with a reasonable powerful CPU on a single chip. My understanding is once you add a stand alone GPU then the CPU can then use the graphics parts as an ALU to become a high end CPU.

This replaces the waste of an integrated GPU on a mobo that just setting unused after adding a stand alone GPU. At the same time being its cheap alternative to the stand alone GPU leaving upgrade room without waste.
December 22, 2007 7:30:52 PM

baseline said:
It is my understanding that both Fusion and Penryn are transition products. Fusion will integrate the GPU and CPU into what AMD calls the APU (accelerated processing unit). AMD will then integrate the chipset logic when Swift is introduced. Once the buses are on the die won't this provide a significant advantage over add in solutions?

We really can't compare existing intergrated graphics motherboards to what Fusion and Nehalem reprensent they are entirely different and are more about putting the whole motherboard on a single chip.

Intel will integrate the GPU with Nehalem along with the long awaited memory controller integration, while both Fusion and early Nehalem parts with a integrated GPU may likely be laptop and CE products it seems clear that at least AMD will be looking to expand Swift beyond those markets into mainstream and enthusists markets. I would expect that Intel will follow suit and integrate the logic chipset as well.

This is when it occurred to me that NVIDIA might find themselves on the outside looking in. What market will be left for them as they are already being removed from AMD customer access since the aquistion of ATI?

The landscape does appear to be changing, thoughts?


First of all, I think you are correct that the landscape is changing. This is why I think Nvidia needs to be very careful. Nvidia needs to heal the breach between it and Intel. Otherwise, in the future, it could very easily become a company where no SLI is offered by anyone, and it could effectively have its motherboard chipsets for AMD and Intel chips cut off. There could be a market left for them with some of the other, minor cpu producers, but that would be devestating to Nvidia.

As to Fusion and Nehalem, they may well integrate the cpu with the gpu, but in my opinion that is a dead end street. No matter how well the gpu part of the chip is made, if graphics performance is to be enhanced, it would mean either replacing the chip as a whole, or allowing that a disrete graphics card be used, such as we do now with ATI or Nvidia cards. I personally can't see how performance enthusiasts would ever tolerate the idea of having to buy a whole new cpu/gpu every time a new game came out that demanded more than the old chip could give. We get enough complaints just having to change graphics cards when some new game, Crysis, Oblivion, etc, comes out. To have to spend even more money would become too much to be tolerated. Another problem is that the CPU companies would have to make even more chips to accomodate the various levels of performance that is expected.

On the other hand, maybe this is occuring without our noticing too much already. Many have predicted the end of the PC as a gaming machine for years, with gaming being regulated to a separate machine, such as the XBox, Play Station, etc. Perhaps this is the desired effect, that PCs will no longer do it all, but only be used as business machines or simple tasks such as done by a cheap E-Machine, while all gaming ends up on the XBox etc. I can't give an answer to that.

Just a few thoughts.
December 23, 2007 4:03:22 AM

My thinking is that with the ability to put 8 cores and integrating the memory controller, PCIe bus and logic onto one die that this one chip is going to be amazingly powerful. We already spend much more to upgrade motherboards when they change and CPU's with new steppings as well as new video cards when they get better. A completely integrated package is going to cost less and be vastly more powerful than the solutions we use today. I could envision a motherboard that only has IO connects and a power supply and thats all in the near future since everything else will be integrated.

I get the feeling that many people still are comparing Swift and Nehalem to the kinds of integrated motherboards we have today. Again Swift and Nehalem are vastly different than what we have today. With this kind of change in architecture it would make sense to start with laptops but no reason to stop there, an 8 core Nehalem could use 4 cores for CPU functions and 4 for GPU functions and be insanely powerful.
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