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This is how Motherboard SHOULD be built

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January 2, 2008 8:58:19 AM


EXHAUST INTAKE

Can you take care of this Tom? Make it happen :) 

More about : motherboard built

January 2, 2008 9:11:18 AM

Copy paste? I thinked you cropped something there. Sheesch...
January 2, 2008 10:01:01 AM

Looks cool to me.

Maybe switch the CPU and hard drives so that the cpu gets the coolest air.

And that would be a pretty wide case....
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a c 122 B Homebuilt system
a c 156 V Motherboard
January 2, 2008 11:43:03 AM

The hard drives are blocking air flow to the CPU.

I/O connections on the side sound like a good idea if you only run 1 computer at a time.

And the case manufacturers have to go along.

Remember BTX?
January 2, 2008 12:00:47 PM

It's harder than it looks to build a working motherboard, and even more work to change the entire standard. I think right now, with a good case, we are as optimal as we're going to get.

jsc is right, the heat from the HDDs are moving over the RAM heating up the air even more, which is in turn being sucked in to the CPU. Imagine blowing 70C air over your processor. That would raise processor temps considerably.

Optimal cases will separate the PSU and HDDs from the rest of the computer allowing the motherboard (and anything connected to it) to be cooled separately, and using video cards with rear-exit exhausts also help a lot.
January 2, 2008 12:42:04 PM

yeah... that looks good... let's just forget about the thousands of people and millions of hours of schooling in pcb design and dozens of years of motherboard experience by manufacturers and engineers and lets change everything around cause some guy got a copy of visio and a hair up his ass.
January 2, 2008 12:48:45 PM

looks good "thermally"... but this just might be a grand phase length nightmare ... Even worse with an integrated memory controller and that cpu/ram orientation. No?
January 2, 2008 1:03:24 PM

wow... did someone study the BTX design docs?
January 3, 2008 9:39:21 AM

no its nothing like the BTX design...
two I worked in "the industry for 20 some years.
three I know the case would have to be redesigned
four air flow goes front (HD's) to back (front being the right side of drawing
five the intake or front fan would have to have a filter
six the rear end (connector end) of vid cards would have to be reworked (maybe right angle) to allow a left case side connector.
seven did you know that most mainframes are built exactly like this for the very reason that it works
eight...I dont have the resources to build this....however a clever moder might just change the industry ^^

Think of it...no elaborate cooling aka phase, peltier, water etc

We have been led via hype that reworking the traces on a mobo is a hard thing...it isnt! (photoetching anyone?)

The ONLY difficult part I see would be the connections from the vid/sound/phys/etc cards to the left side of case...and even that isnt THAT hard....a company ...say EVGA could simply put right-angle connectors on board (pin layout identical etc) add an over long cable from connector to case side...hinge the case side at the rear.

We've all basically been assuming that a mobo layout, designed when even heatsinks werent necessary...is way past its prime. ...and we were right!

Cooling solutions today are ridiculous (high cost, PITA installation, further maintenace etc)

Someone with a dremel a small machine shop a little electrical knowledge and a mobo manufacturer up their sleeve...could easily build this and sweep the market. I'd imagine the current cooling system providers would balk :) 

As far as I can see the ONLY decent cooling system so far would be phase change and at $700/unit.....well thats just nuts.

Prediction: The 1st company to go this route will become very rich very fast.

one sec....my resonator/phase-peltier/12 fan/ danger den colling system needs 12.2 years of maintenace brb :pfff:  :pfff:  :pfff:  :/ 

ouch just broke off my right thumb in a careless liquid nitrogen accident!



P.S. case and mobo would be same size as today (well case would be 9-10" wide to accommodate the fans)
further, no more vid card power connectors near or IN the harddrive cage (HD's mounted front to back)
since HD's create so little heat compared to other components, blowing ambient aire over the HD's would NOT
be an issue. Lastly, you MIGHT have noticed that all cooler components at front and hottest at back. With,
what........200cfpm airflow? ...the heat wouldnt have a remote chance of remaining in case.

The same effect could be TESTED, cheaply by simply building a system (current layout) inside a 8" diameter Sono-Tube (available at Home Depot etc) and mounting 2 8" fans on either end. Without actually testing this way I have NO numbers to post, BUT I'll give 50-1 odds that it will silently solve all cooling problems, and (the test) would require NO help from the manufacturers. Just mod a standard issue comp in an 8" Sono_Tube and laugh on your' way to the bank :) 


January 3, 2008 9:47:40 AM


Prediction: The 1st company to go this route will become very rich very fast.

said:

Prediction: The 1st company to go this route will become very rich very fast.

Why don't you offer this to Asus directly ? You can be rich too.
January 3, 2008 10:01:15 AM

silly man, I already sent this same proposal to ASUS :)  True they MAY be rofl atm...but they aren't stupid and DO need a miracle soon ^^

I can see it now...be the first on your block to own the ........ Ultracool Spider AMD/ATI system!
January 3, 2008 10:15:40 AM

ghot said:
silly man, I already sent this same proposal to ASUS :)  True they MAY be rofl atm...but they aren't stupid and DO need a miracle soon ^^

I can see it now...be the first on your block to own the ........ Ultracool Spider AMD/ATI system!



If you already sent this same proposal to ASUS, why did you post the design here ? No wonder Asus are rofl atm at you.
January 3, 2008 10:19:46 AM

because as stated by others the cost for retooling would at first be prohibitive...whereas a clever THG modder could easily slap anyold comp in an 8" diameter Sono-Tube (with an 8" fan on either end) and test this theory. Any other silly questions?
January 3, 2008 10:44:10 AM




Here is the version that any1 with spare time and an old HOT comp could easily test. Hence the THG post :) 
January 3, 2008 11:07:52 AM

redesigning the mobo will be a LOT more difficult that you realize. Yes, just moving around the components is easy. Now, try to get the TIMING of the signals to them now displaced components right. Yes, our mobo's are designed to such a point that the time it takes for the electrical impluses to get from point a to point b is accounted for! Yes, we are talking about nanosecs at the best, but its all got to be accounted for!

Remember the first really fast super computer?? the Cray 1?? they measured EVERY signal trace and made sure that the proper signal was in the proper place at EXACTLY the right time. Not before, Not after. that meant that some traces that could easily have been 1/4 inch long were over a foot or more!

Just goes to show how much planning goes into building this stuff that people dont realize
January 3, 2008 11:08:21 AM

dude seriously... crack is bad, you shouldn't do drugs.
January 3, 2008 11:23:53 AM

dude seriopusly in the service I designed motherboards back in the day i know about ns and even ps instead of dissing this idea why dont you NOT reply and instead THINK about it.....I'd be willing to bet that you could overclock the bejeezus outta (lets say) the cheap test version and still NOT see ANY rise in temps...well above ambient room temp anyways.

If I had an old HOT comp and 150$ I would build it, overclock it, then post the temps...but as I dont...sum1 else should^^

Did you in all your wisdom KNOW that every mainframe comp is built on this same principle......in fact most only have ONE huge exhaust fan....use no Proc fans etc. Ambient room temp is way lower than temps recorded in current DESKTOP setups.....200 cfpm of air tornadoing past a measly desktop system......is a good, quiet solution.

But don't let NEW scare you.....if it does can I please borrow your Abacus, I'm sure IT at least will run cooler :/ 



P.S. Comps like Cray, Bluegene etc are NOT mainframes so to speak they are in their own class called super computers.
January 3, 2008 11:24:32 AM

ghot

are you going to fill those sono-tubes with concrete? I really don't seeing somebody getting rich over night to change a standard that has worked for 12 years now. To change a mobo the case manufactures will have to change their cases, and not everybody will jump on something right away. It is very costly to change all of this. So your way may work better but it would take years to become a standard. By the way did you hear back from Asus when you sent that proposal?
January 3, 2008 11:31:24 AM

I think it is good in theory, to see it working would be pretty neet!
a b B Homebuilt system
a c 92 V Motherboard
January 3, 2008 11:38:35 AM

Interesting idea, but.....

Even BTX, which is kinda like ATX version 2, never really caught on. It would be far cheaper to implement that then what you purpose, and people didn't do it. Now that Intel has cooler chips, the BTX standard as been all but completely shelved.

Speaking of which, how cool do you need your CPU? Many people using air cooling are able to get temps in the mid 30s. And that is with stock heatsinks. I've seen after market ones that cost <=$40 allow you to overclock nicely, while still keeping the temps reasonable. The only reason you need water or phase is if you are going for a monster overclock, or are using older CPUs.

I'm sorry, but I'm going with the others in this thread. Intel had enough trouble talking people into use BTX, which would have been much cheaper then what you want to do. (how are you going to get the side of your case off with your peripherals plugged into them?) Unless you demand that your CPU stays at 20c, air cooling is fine.
January 3, 2008 11:40:09 AM

I only sent it yesterday so no I havent heard back :/  I KNOW its costly to re layout a mobo...however the case mod wud be simple and cheap.
In case you're NOT up on manufacturing processes....a comp case is nothing more than a few stamped pieces of sheet metal....20 minutes on a CNC mill will do it easily.

The industry already made a half-ass attempt at this same solution in the BTX form factor....just because they tried to rework existing layouts (dumb) does NOT mean this isnt a good...even great solution.

Lastly I'm so tired of seeing products and their associated ads that cost a fortune and do little to lower temps...oooooo 5C drop wow!

...and you're correct it wont happen over night.... but our current 12 year standard, DOESN'T work!!! Hence the springing up of all these expensive cooling solutions, that only work marginally, at best, and cost an arm and a leg to boot. Any leaks yet?

P.S. and yes lad I know what the primary use for Sono-Tubes is....and no they wont need concrete.
January 3, 2008 11:50:58 AM

P.P.S. IF you really look at the first drawing at the top of this post you will SEE that I did take the mobo circuit runs into consideration....in fact they will be faster than the current layouts. The design eliminates the vid card-HD cage problem entirely.....puts all the onboard component in closer proximity than they are currently..and due to the entire system being located in a "wind tunnel" so to speak....you prolly wont even need component fans...I'd guess that mere heat sinks in that air flow would blow away any current cooling system.

C.mon now someone has to have a spare hot-proc comp and a Home Depot card....PROVE me wrong...use even an existing mobo for test.....if i win the lottery in next month or so...I'll build it...but considering I lose EVERY game of chance I've ever played....I'm not going to hold my breath :) 
January 3, 2008 11:59:03 AM

you don't need expensive cooling solutions to run pc parts at stock speed. The sudden growth of cooling solutions is that more people are building pc's now then ever before. The reason for that is easier to build a pc and plus all of the info on the net that can read about to build a pc. So all of these companies see that there is a market for this and that they know that people want to get their most of the machine.

Your right I am not up on the manufacturing process and don't really know much about CNC machine.
a b B Homebuilt system
a c 92 V Motherboard
January 3, 2008 12:08:12 PM

Quote:
Lastly I'm so tired of seeing products and their associated ads that cost a fortune and do little to lower temps...oooooo 5C drop


True, depending on what you consider a fortune. Exotic high end air coolers cost ~$60, many can be had for $40. Lets get some real world examples.

http://www.anandtech.com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.aspx?i...

The best cooler from this review is the Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme. How much does it cost?

http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=23531&vpn=UL...

$65cad, Lets make it an even $100cad for a REALLY nice fan. Does it perform only 5c better? There is a 7c difference at idle, and its 14c better under load. With this cooler you almost get idle stock cooler performance but at load.

Quote:
but our current 12 year standard, DOESN'T work!!! Hence the springing up of all these expensive cooling solutions, that only work marginally, at best, and cost an arm and a leg to boot. Any leaks yet?


Doesn't work? Expensive cooling solutions? Only work marginally? Any leaks? Only the one in your head. I was nice the first time, now I fully agree with the others. Put the crack pipe down, its messing with your thinking.

a b B Homebuilt system
a b V Motherboard
January 3, 2008 12:09:12 PM

valis said:
yeah... that looks good... let's just forget about the thousands of people and millions of hours of schooling in pcb design and dozens of years of motherboard experience by manufacturers and engineers and lets change everything around cause some guy got a copy of visio and a hair up his ass.

Exactly. It this would work, they would already look like this.
January 3, 2008 12:27:02 PM

yea well ppl dissed every new idea since time began....Im not even gonna waste the time to argue with you children...there too many temp benchmarks to prove that existing cooling doesnt work...at least the lower priced solutions. Try yahoo chat if you want to flame :) 

P.S. did you also diss the guy who filled the case with vegetable oil...that worked too ^^

But by all means dont let ME stop anyone from spending 2000-10000 dollars for a comp that always has heat problems.....the ONLY reason that motherboards arent made this way NOW is that uninformed people keep payin for the latest slapped together mobos.......I doubt this forum has the room to list all the posts regarding heat issues, and I dont have the time.



January 3, 2008 1:11:49 PM

I am sure people are working on new designs for mobo/case layouts and nobody has come up with anything better.
January 3, 2008 2:10:50 PM

You are an ass.

You post an idea expecting praises instead of praise AND criticism. Live with it. Nature of a the PUBLIC beast. If you dont want criticism, keep it tuck under your pillow.

You are not the first to come up with some redisgned mobo. Every freaking hardware site I have seen, someone always post what they think is a good way to design a motherboard.

A simple criticism... I love how the GPU and its fan will be sucking hot air from the chipset AND CPU.

Also, you may want to check out a Mac Pro and G5 layout. You are about several years behind :/ 
January 3, 2008 2:24:33 PM

I have concerns regarding the increase in the width of the case required for this new motherboard, from about 8" to almost 12" wide from left to right. Thus increasing the price of the case.
Also the heat producing components should be moved toward the top of the case, giving that the two largest heat producing items, the CPU and the Video card are one atop the other, the arrangement is not thermally efficient.
I would prefer the PSU and the CD/DVD drives to be located in another position, with the PSU at the bottom and the Optical drives in the middle.
As the control components are clustered into such a small area the motherboard costs would increase dramatically due to all the extra smd resistors and capacitors that would be required to reduce circuit noise.
There is a logical reason for the current circuit layout of the data paths from the ram to NorthBridge/CPU's on current motherboards that are not addressed with this motherboard design.
Thermal issues have been well addressed by the BTX design, it's just that no one has fallen in love with the present BTX offerings.
I too like my cables to connect to the back side of my cases. The case that I have, the Antec 900 addresses all the thermal issues that I have had in the past, and the most noisy part is still the Northbridge fan in most of my systems.
But for my thermal pipe motherboard in the Antec 900 case.
January 3, 2008 4:39:08 PM

ghot said:
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8470/cheapversioncw8.jpg


Here is the version that any1 with spare time and an old HOT comp could easily test. Hence the THG post :) 


Thing is, most micro-ATX motherboards are ~9.5" square, so you'd have to use one of the larger diameter tubes. Even then, you'd have to position the mobo in the centre of the tube, and because of the curvature, it would be difficult to fit expansion cards like say video or sound. And half your cooling air would be going down the back of the motherboard. How hot do those solder joints really get?

The 8" fans could be offset from the cylinder axis but then, why are we bothering with a tube? Wouldn't it be easier to just use multiple chambers for isolated thermal zones? Or smaller low-volume ducts aimed directly at the heat producing components?
January 3, 2008 5:35:20 PM

My apartment gets a little hot in the summer, and I want ghot to make a new floor plan so it make a little cooler for me.
a b B Homebuilt system
a c 92 V Motherboard
January 3, 2008 5:52:48 PM

ghot said:
there too many temp benchmarks to prove that existing cooling doesnt work...at least the lower priced solutions.


Care to link 1? There are many $20-$40 coolers that work very well. You don't need to spend $100 to get a better cooler then the stock one. I simply picked the one at the top of that list, I'm sure those lower down don't cost as much.

What I don't get is you want to redesign the motherboard, the case, and all plug in cards for better airflow? We already have BTX which works better then ATX, but isn't even needed anymore. Why spend all this money on new parts when a new $40 cooler will drops your temps? You also still haven't said how you would get the side of the case off if the Video card and others plug in to them. You have an interesting idea, but take it from me and the others who have said so, it needs a lot of work. People may have dissed new idea since the dawn of man, but remember this also. If one person says your wrong, you might be right. when nearly EVERYONE says your wrong, you should sit down and shut up while thinking about what they are saying. To continue to claim that your right while everyone says otherwise is pretty stupid.
January 3, 2008 6:30:05 PM

well this turned out interesting...
1. no I aint gonna re look up the 1000 or so colling benchmarks that show 5-10c changes for 400$ up U can!
2. every one MAY design mobo layouts but this one makes sense
3. the CPU and GPU are 1-2 " from an 8inch exhaust fan get a clue
4. all the component line up with the airflow...get another clue
5. yes the case wud have to be wider....big deal, as i said before a case is 20 mins on a CNC mill :/ 
6. u dont like the idea then be silent
7. go work on a few mainframes then come spout ur BS about cooling
8. lastly u got a better idea? didnt think so!

ty for the FEW decent cristicisms and or praise...the rest get a clue!

add up all that I can do it with existing gear Mr Law library!

Im 51 and have spent 30 years workin on comps...never read a law book tho ^^


putting all the components on a motherboard in a veritable windtunnel is cheaper, better solution.....
thats prolly why mainframes are built that way....the BEST solution is too expensive and that would be rack mount everything and have it ALL plug into a backplane...but thats too expensive.

all in all i dont think (after 3o years) that ur gonna find a better solution..but what do i know :) 
a b B Homebuilt system
a c 92 V Motherboard
January 3, 2008 6:50:04 PM

What do you know? Not much.

You seem to have forgotten what you learned in college. Science is where you prove the problem exists, then purpose the solution. I already provided a link to a quad core CPU that using a $60-$100 cooler will run very cool. If your CPU is ~35c, where is the problem? How much colder do you need? WHERE IS THE PROBLEM THAT YOUR "SOLUTION" FIXES? Telling me to look it up isn't the answer. At the moment, you are another crackpot with a theory.

Your solution isn't that good. Hot air from the hdds are passed over the ram, then over the CPU. I don't care how close the CPU is to an exhaust, its still getting warmed from the hdds. A better design would have the hdds at the top, with vent slots/holes so the raising hot air can leave the case immediately. hdds should be put at the top, where most cases have the optical drives, not at the bottom in front so they can warm everything.

After three posts you STILL haven't said how you would get the case on if the expansion cards plug into the side. And he didn't say it would take long to make the case, he said it would cost more because more material would be needed due to the increase in width.

Frankly sir, I am done. You could have showed us to attach the case side panel with the cards in there. You could have showed us what thermal issues you are talking about. You could have laid it out so that hot devices are at the top (CPU, hdds,) and other hot things are routed into their own compartment. (PSU) Instead you choose to rant about how right you are, without providing any proof. (ohhhh, I'm sorry, 30 years in the biz, how unappreciative of me.)

You said you weren't going to waste the time to argue with us, you should have stuck to that. Instead you come back and insult yet another person whos been here longer, and agreed with pretty much everyone else. Unless your attitude changes and you decide to act like a grown up, this "child" is done with you. (funny how you know our ages. I'd be willing to bet people in this thread are not only older, but many of those who are younger know more then you.)
January 3, 2008 8:06:03 PM

ghot said:


putting all the components on a motherboard in a veritable windtunnel is cheaper, better solution.....
thats prolly why mainframes are built that way....the BEST solution is too expensive and that would be rack mount everything and have it ALL plug into a backplane...but thats too expensive.

all in all i dont think (after 3o years) that ur gonna find a better solution..but what do i know :) 


Convective heat transfer is a funny thing. I am not a physicist but my first impression is that a lot of the air from those 8" fans is going nowhere near the hot components on the motherboard. It'll come in cold, and exit cold, not picking up the heat at all.

But to put in those oversize fans you'll need a bigger case. Tooling costs are a one time thing but every case will use that much more metal and be that much more expensive to ship. I'm not sure it's worth the redesign; especially since you can gin up a very similar stuff-in-line-with-airflow design using existing, off the shelf motherboards and cases.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121058
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112065

January 3, 2008 8:06:05 PM

ok i think it is a neat mb all the cpu ram northbridge southbridge etc are in the same general area witch would cut down on data acess times and allow for a generally faster computer stock cpu fansinks should be modifed to be a upright heatsink with a fan blowing through or even passive if the exhaust fan is powerfull enough one thing though is your picture to scale im thinking the rear fan would be blocking the space for the expansion cards and where would the connectors for the motherboard go where would you plug in your mouse, keyboard and lan cables

oh and we are just expressing our concerns dont grill us just cos we are using constructive criticism every forumer has a right to say what they feel even if its wrong
January 4, 2008 7:32:27 AM

the DIFFERENCE with this design is that the the ram and the expansion cards are NOT perpendicular as they are on every motherboard of ANY formfactor for desktop PC's

On ANY modern motherboard the airflow is hitting the SIDE of either the ram or the expansion cards, thus creating a disturbance in the airflow. This is WHY i think a motherboard re-layout is long over due.

Ok for case issues use two 6" fans...problem solved
For the expansion card issues the ONLY mods necessary would be for the expansion card manufacturers, to simply supply an extension cable that would go from the cards to a passthru connector ANY where on the case.

Ok ...so now we have what? The back and front of cases all have 1-2 fan locations anyways.......simply retool for one big 6" diameter fan in the same locations...simple and cheap.

As for the expansion card to case extensions...its simply a matter of a rectangular greenlee type punch for each of the pass-thru connectors.

The hot components I purposely located where i did...so that they would in effect be radiating heat directly into a relatively unstoppable air flow. The hottest parts ARE on the bottom for the very reason heat rises....and as it does it is rudely sucked into the airstream and pushed out the back of the comp.

Use the ciggarette test to confirm this urself.....hold lit cigg near intake, shine flashlight into case and watch how what SHOULD be sufficient airflow....isn't simply because of the RAM vs the expansion cards layout.

With the system pictured at top of this topic.....you gain:
1. less obstructed airflow, greater volume airflow, less noise.
2. faster intra motherboard speeds due to component layout
3. and w/o actually building and testing..which i dont have the facilities
to do...I would bet that a system built this way could be highly
overclocked and STILL need no additional cooling, simply because
of the motherboard component arrangement.

How many times have we all read and/or posted: ...if you suspect a heat problem, take off the case side and situate a room fan so it blows into the comp......100 times? 1000 times?

All I've tried to illustrate here is that THIS layout would do the same thing as the room fan suggestion would.....wud still retain the sealed case and look a whole lot better. Add to that, that with this layout,
working inside the case would be a breeze. There are even cases being made now with at least a large (aka 6") fan on the front of case.
Someone with a factory MUST think its a good idea :) 

Currently the expansion cards are set up exactly INLINE with the front to back airflow.....only problem is: the RAM isn't, and the CPU and regulators and such are in the worst location possible...the top of the case where the hot air goes.

Every large mainframe computer etc is set up with all cards INLINE with the air flow. WHY do desktop motherboard manufacturers INSIST on locating the ram slots perpendicular to the exp card slots...just doesnt make sense...especially since the better RAM is coming out with taller and taller heatsinks. No matter how you cut it having them perpendicular...messes up the airflow.

My layout however has all components directly IN a strong quiet air stream (at ambient room temp)
EVEN at 90 deg F ambient room temp....the two fans in my layout would force a 6" diameter column of 32 deg C air across all components with no airflow obstructions. I cant make it any clearer and for that I apologize......

If 32C aint cool enough w/o exotic cooling then maybe your comp has a different problem. Keep in mind we are talking 32C in a 90F room!!
At 70F this 6" diameter windtunnel will be at 21C...
AT 60F you'd have 15C (which is the lowest reported temp Ive seen for ANY cooling system...save liquid nitrogen...which at best is dangerous, very expensive, and the devices to contain it even more expensive.

The Sono-Tube idea is just the least expensive way I can think of to test this theory.

P.S. to the 12 years we had same layout, guy: for 30 years cars had drum brakes....that didnt stop the various manufacturers from inventing disc brakes. THAT btw was some serious retooling costs!!!!

P.P.S. and to 4745454b i dont NEED to prove the problem exists genius.....just google cooling solutions!!!!
OBVIOUSLY the problem exists lol.

P.P.P.S. here is photo of 1st IC chip:




If the manufacturers thought like some of you seem too....well your current desktop system would fill a 3 story 20000 sq ft/story house! But you guys probably dont like three story houses either :/ 

This post was made for one reason...to get the attention of a "forward thinking" modder. Hence the cheap Sono-Tube set-up as a test bed...even using a NORMAL modern motherboard!
January 4, 2008 8:00:59 AM

Quite frankly you don't have a clue.
But i do...It's so simple. refrigirator manufacturers ared made to design a compartment into the freezer section for people to place there MB and componants..
In fact this idea is so good i'm now forwarding my post to all the fridge makers now.
January 4, 2008 8:03:37 AM

make sure u take into consideration the condensation....humorless trog :/ 
January 4, 2008 10:15:07 AM

ok if your going to bring cars in to this equation, then why are we still using piston engines and not the rotary engine (except for the Mazda RX7 and The Mazda RX8). as far as your disc brakes go yeah the disc are superior in a number of ways as oppose to drum brakes. it still took 30 years get disc in every vehicle on the road. Well yeah there are innovations all over the place, if there weren't innovations we would still have square wheels.

But having hdds to block all of the air flow and all of the hot air from the hdds go pass the even hotter cpu to me that doesn't make sense to me. Maybe if you just have 1 hdd this might work, but there are a lot of people that have more than 1 hdd.
January 4, 2008 11:20:42 AM

Hate to bust the bubble on "Mainframes" But we currently are running many on each coast and errrr :heink:  there are waaaaaaay more than just one fan on each system. And when I was working for the Navy our mainframes shipboard and ashore were water cooled.

I will admit though, its way over due for a redesign for layout on MB's we are still using the same basic layout that was in use 20 years ago. Sheesh spring for a new standard once in a while guys!
January 11, 2008 2:33:15 AM

Thats all im saying just redo the mobo so components get the MOST benefit from a airflow. It cant be done 1/2 a.. either....everything has to be inline and away from top of case, as much as possible.
Just slap huge heatsinks on everything and let the air flow......

BTX was a 1/2 a.. attempt thats why it failed. We have the tools, we have the talent, it's Mobo time ^^

We've tried everything else..and we still have cooling issues...many would overclock except for the heat /shortened component life....w/o exotic cooling. we've already tweaked about everything else we could think of...that kinda leave the motherborad itself as at least a huge part of the problem.

Anyways....just something to think about :) 


January 11, 2008 3:59:56 AM

Heres the easist way i can illustrate the difference...a little PSP7 trickery on a gigabyte 790 board.




and heres my revised mobo (ficticious of course)




Now honestly which one u think take higher overclock ?
The two 120mm fans wimping along or the 6-8" diam. (considering the component layout)

Actually it'd probably work with 3 120mm intake and 3 120mm exhaust IF the motherboard was constructed as shown in the AFTER pic.

Of course all the component to exterior connections would have to be moved to the
rear left side panel of case....simple 6" cable extensions. I dunno I think this a winner in the cooling wars...smack down in fact!
a b V Motherboard
January 11, 2008 4:19:04 AM

Darn, too bad ASUS does not have a dremel tool and sono-tube. They don't even know what they are missing for the want of two little items.

If you worked "in the industry for 20 years", couldn't you find anyone there to listen?

Regarding your diagram above, how do you connect anything to your PCI and PCIe card slots? Like a monitor maybe, or to your sound cards, or your lan card, or eSATA card, TV tuner, etc. ?
a b B Homebuilt system
a c 117 V Motherboard
January 11, 2008 4:23:15 AM



With some tweaks it could work...and would not need a new MB..Front fans could give positive pressure....or just read for negative...since its sealed there is no need for both....

Dark blue lines are dividers....

I do not see hard drive heat as much of a problem, every vent in the front of my 900 has drives behind it....


IMO
Current cases and hardware work just fine....
January 11, 2008 4:47:00 AM

I respect your idea but I'd rather operate a large fan facing my mobo
good thing my case has a 25cm side fan (I can live without a funnel)
that sono-tube computer casing design doesn't fit my taste (I'm willing to trade off a little cooling for some personal style preference)
I saw an almost-cylinder shaped acrylic(?) case mod (around August of last year IIRC) and I felt, well, I didn't like it (I'm sure I'm not the only one)

if this mobo layout is better than BTX and BTX couldn't change the market much (Dell alone can't do it), then I doubt your idea will become a standard in a short time

but as mentioned earlier, everyone has their own tastes
just like cars, there are cars out there that are horrible on fuel efficiency (I won't mention names)
but some people are willing to trade off mpg for performance (similar with some computer afficionados with computers (that are tied to a limited budget or not))

but don't get me wrong (and yes, some parts of my argument are not directly related), a large portion of this has to do with consumer/market tastes (but more so with the manufacturers as they are worried about earning a profit over things)

and since there is a large portion of uneducated consumers (sadly), there is more to take advantage of them
(less change can mean more savings for companies - but heavy competition can mean otherwise)

My other contrast is that I believe the technology involved in the development of processing chips is highly important as well
I'm not saying layout is not important - no offense to anyone but check the recent news on AMD (but I agree that more complex designs leave more room for error)
which leads to this:
well designed chips made using smaller processes (say 32nm and under) may leave the ATX design intact as the standard for a longer period of time as the smaller processes will make the chips run more efficient and thus less leakage and that means less heat (and less to worry about the mobo layout)
and OC fanatics will most likely continue OC'ing the chips and the OC community will continue to grow leading to a larger heatsink/computer cooling market

there are some people who want better efficiency but don't want to live with big changes that occur with it unless they're forced to
Examples include cars, computer architecture, and even OS'es
but the market will eventually slowly adopt to new changes if they are large enough to have an impact on them
the market isn't that quick to change (well, most things)

enough with my rambling, feel free to bash me for anything you don't agree about

on side note, better go get your patent on it
I would rather operate my mobo without a case than something that looks like I can roll around with
a b B Homebuilt system
a c 92 V Motherboard
January 11, 2008 6:06:23 AM

rockyjohn said:

Regarding your diagram above, how do you connect anything to your PCI and PCIe card slots? Like a monitor maybe, or to your sound cards, or your lan card, or eSATA card, TV tuner, etc. ?


DOES ANYONE READ MY POSTS?

This is what I've been asking him, and he keeps replying like he doesn't understand me. He wants extensions to come from the top of the card, and plug into the side of the case. (the same side that you would remove to access the insides.) My question to him, and the one he keeps ignoring, is HOW DO YOU REMOVE THE SIDE OF THE CASE?!?!? Or better yet, how do you attach these leads, then put the side on? Notice he said 6inch extensions, is that long enough? I wonder if these extensions will harm the signal in anyway?

Looking at his PS handywork, how does he intend on securing the cards? The cards I use plug into a notch on the bottom of the case, and are secured up top with a screw. You could probably still use the screw, but what about the bottom?

Last, I still haven't been convinced overheating is a problem. Do people come on this forum with this problem? Yes. Usually it is fixed by cleaning the heatsinks or securing the heatsink properly. I have never seen ANYONE come on any forum and complain that the brand new CPU they just got (with a correct cooler properly attached) is thermally throttling. NEVER! Most new machine will run at 30-35c. You don't normally even see any thermal issues until you get close to 70. If thermals are such a big problem, we could start using BTX, which really require any retooling of expansion cards or cases. Sure, we've used the same basic motherboard layout for a long time, but it hasn't been a problem so far.
January 11, 2008 6:13:42 AM

In your seconded drawing design you have conveniently left out the fact that the PSU is also a major part of heat removal second only to the back fan.

I submit to you that air turbulence is a factor in cooling, not air restriction mind you.

As to your claim that $400 is required to get a 5 to 10 degree reduction in temperature well here you are just flat out wrong.
I replaced the stock HSF that came with my Q6600 with an Arctic Cooling Freezer pro 7 that cost $26 with shipping. This HSF dropped my CPU temps about 6 degrees before the Arctic Silver cured. Now I have about 10 degrees lower temps that the stock HSF.

No one gets their CPU lower than ambient without some type of radical heat removal. This must be what you infer.

Still not addressed are the added cost issues due to circuit design and case design. More material, higher cost.
January 11, 2008 9:09:43 AM

the thing about the tunnel is that air flowing fast is colder than air flowing slowly when both are the same actual temperature and the tunnel creates a faster air speed
January 11, 2008 9:39:53 AM

Just moving the parts around will not cool the system better. The reason for this is the fan on the cpu that would be blowing air crosswind wise of the airflow from front to back of the PC case.

This basically causes little tornadoes inside the pc. the better solution is to open the case up.

Just moving parts around will not accomplish anything.

1 BTU of heat still = 1 BTU of heat it doesn't matter where you place it inside a tight box.

Additionally most PSU's draw air from bottom and expel out the top. So the air flow patterns you suggest are wrong.

The air would be bouncing around alot more than what you suggest in your picture, due to other fans in the system.

Additionally where you have the Harddrives placed would lead to premature HDD failure because heat naturally rises you have a heat trap at the upper part of the pc case. Because air is typically drawn from the bottom of the PSU not the back of it. Yet another reason it's better to just leave the case open.
!