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Is the Inquirer to be believed? 9600gt recalled? 9800gx2 delayed?

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February 18, 2008 7:56:07 PM

Grab your shaker of salt and enjoy:

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/02/18/...

Quote:


IT LOOKS LIKE Nvidia is firing on no cylinders lately. The firm can't seem to get a product out on time. There is one bright spot: the count on the 9600GT delays has gone up by 50 per cent.

That may not be a bright spot, but the so far twice delayed 9600GT, (specs here) appears to have been recalled. Some OEMs are getting the call to yank them, others not yet, or not at the time they talked to us. What this means is more and more delay, this time we are not sure how much though. An educated guess would be CeBIT, because what else are they going to launch there?

Oh yes, we probably should mention that the 9800X2, or whatever they call it, has also moved from CeBIT to the end of March, for now. Before you get all hot and bothered, this is basically a couple of downclocked


If ATI comes out with the 4870's on time in June, it will be an interesting summer. I've often said that ATI and Nvidia leapfrog each other, but now it seems that Nvidia's experiencing the kind of woes ATI did in the lead up to the 2900XT. I was really surprise that the 9800gx2 was going to be a dual PCB board. In this day and age?

If the 4870 arrives in June, it promises to be as fast as my new 3870x2, but the price difference between the high end 4870x2 and the 4870 will be $200 (ie $299 vs. $499). The last bit of info is from Nordic Hardware:

http://www.nordichardware.com/news,7356.html

If AMD needs a new CEO (and it probably does) it goes double for Nvidia. Complacency does not bring rewards in the tech sector, let alone consumer tech. We all want ATI and Nvidia to be neck and neck, innovating at all price points and not fudging demos with dubious drivers, or blurring image quality to get a few more fps in popular benchmarks.

More about : inquirer believed 9600gt recalled 9800gx2 delayed

February 18, 2008 8:12:39 PM

Hmm, It's interesting and I wouldn't be surprised by this. One thing that I do have to disagree with is in regards to the "premium" over ATI cards. I think the GT and the GTS are priced exactly where they need to be. Yes, a little more expensive but also performs just above. Both are good cards no doubt, but I think both ATI and Nvidia are priced just where they need to be for how well they perform.

But this is certainly an opportunity for ATI and I hope this brings better competition back to the market.
February 18, 2008 8:36:23 PM

Nvidia's problem, in the long run, is AMD's roadmap -- one which Intel decided to copy; GPU as one or more cores in a multicore CPU.

IMHO, Nvidia's CEO has ticked off too many other suits. AMD wanted to "buy" Nvidia before ATI, but Huang wanted to be the CEO and Hector Ruiz wouldn't go for it. Then, Huang is reported to have floated a takeover attempt of AMD, nixed by Taiwanese partners.

Now, analysts are saying that Nvidia might buy AMD regardless of x86 licenses and in opposition to regulatory warnings:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20080214105804...

Quote:

Doug Friedman, an analyst with American Technology Research, said that graphics chip maker Nvidia Corp. could well acquire x86 microprocessor maker Advanced Micro Devices in order to "re-architect it". The acquisition is considered to be useful due to the fact that roadmaps of AMD and Intel Corp. threat Nvidia. The only problem for the graphics giant is that AMD's x86 license is a non-transferable one.


What Nvidia needs to do is get their own x86 license, even if that means eating Intel crow, or buy Via if the one Via has left over from the 486 days is transferable (haven't really researched Via's acquisition of Cyrix all that much). Nvidia has the cash to enter the CPU market in style and they may not just cannibalize sales from AMD. Nvidia could give Intel a run for it's money on two fronts.

It will be interesting to follow the GPU market once Swift and Intel's answer reach maturity, ending up in both notebooks and replacing (or working alongside) motherboard IGP's at the budget end. If Nvdia bought AMD, perhaps they'd be forced to sell off ATI.

February 19, 2008 12:31:42 PM

I like the press statements that NVidia has been releasing lately to debunk ATI. The one on xbit's page stating that they were gunning for single GPU rather than dual GPU solutions because they suck is pretty funny. It seems to be in defense / response to their x2 that is having troubles getting off the ground. There was another, unfortunately twisted by inquirer, about NVidia saying the 3870x2 sucked due poor xfire support. It is funny because xfire scales better than SLI in some cases.

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/01/30/...


It is sad that ATI is part of AMD now. I wish they had remained independent. It is almost like AMD is relying on ATI's hard work to carry them through tough times in order to get to the GPU/CPU integration.

Gamers are F**k*D if there ends up being only one GPU maker. Prices would be out of control. Do you smell monopoly?
February 19, 2008 1:10:27 PM

Inquirer link = auto ignore. And NO! The inquirer is always to be doubted...
February 19, 2008 1:38:36 PM

i'm not very familiar with that news source, sorry, can't help you there
February 19, 2008 1:44:13 PM

The BFG 9600GT is already on the shelves at BestBuy. The inq's statements could still be true though as they mention not all oems have been recalling them. At least BestBuy will give you a full refund, so those people who grab them at that inflated price can test them out and return them if horror stories surface over the next couple weeks.
a b Î Nvidia
February 19, 2008 1:55:54 PM

aziraphale said:
Inquirer link = auto ignore. And NO! The inquirer is always to be doubted...


Doubted, yes, but it would be a shame to ignore them IMO. They're almost always entertaining, and the unauthorized insider info they tend to publish sometimes comes true. When it doesn't, it's mostly because companies change plans, or because the insider who talked to them was not high enough in ranks and clueless, not because the Inquirer lied.

And another thing, they deserve a bit of respect because they're not afraid to annoy anybody, including Microsoft, Intel, Sony, AMD or nVidia. It's getting rare these days to find a site that doesn't take sides.
February 19, 2008 2:21:53 PM

Interesting read.

Its kind of crazy how much of an uproar the personal computer segment is in right now. Actually, tech in general.

HDDVD falling by the way side to Blu-ray. AMD tripping over its laces, talks about IBM buying them out, Intel's delayed CPUs, nVidia buys out Aegia and preps to offer a CUDA based PhysX upgrade, then nVidia delays and possibly recalls some of it stuff.

Total conjecture based off no fact whatsoever, but I wonder if they are delaying some of their new cards in order to implement PhysX PPUs?
February 19, 2008 3:28:43 PM

probably... considering they seem to be pretty scared of ATI atm...
a b Î Nvidia
February 19, 2008 3:43:56 PM

Well this reminds me of the GF7900 and GF8800 launch, there were issues leading right up to and past the launch, but they tried to manage them in channel basically swapping out first arrived stock with replacements right away causing a slight volume hitch but not a major launch delay. This may be a little more since supposedly the original target date was Feb 14th, and the 21st is still not firm for a full launch.

As mentioned by Paul there are some already in the channel and I would suspect that being Best Buy it's probably the standard models and likely less prone to minor issues compared to any higher clocked models.

All in all it's interesting, but I wouldn't take it as solid information considering the source. I love reading the InQ, but I wouldn't bet my retirement funds on their information.
a b Î Nvidia
February 19, 2008 3:48:50 PM

rallyimprezive said:

Total conjecture based off no fact whatsoever, but I wonder if they are delaying some of their new cards in order to implement PhysX PPUs?


Why would you bother?

The PhysX software port isn't expected for another 2 months, why bother delaying a product launch for something that at best is a bonus feature that you can already talk about now with your PR machine (how is this different than nV and AMD both talking about VPU physics before?).

Also if you delay something for this it better work damn well right out of the box.

The rumour about the delay for a more unified launch with the MoBo makes sense, and sounds familiar, but if it doesn't launch on the 21st, then it sounds like a coping strategy, which also sounds familiar.
February 19, 2008 4:04:23 PM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
Why would you bother?

The PhysX software port isn't expected for another 2 months, why bother delaying a product launch for something that at best is a bonus feature that you can already talk about now with your PR machine (how is this different than nV and AMD both talking about VPU physics before?).

Also if you delay something for this it better work damn well right out of the box.

The rumour about the delay for a more unified launch with the MoBo makes sense, and sounds familiar, but if it doesn't launch on the 21st, then it sounds like a coping strategy, which also sounds familiar.


Why would I bother? It was something I thought of that my have added to the conversation. Nothing more. Sorry if it was offensive.

You are right though, its a bit far off for nvidia to delay that much. Good point.

However, im excited about Physx and I think it may become more than a bonus feature if game devs really decide to embrace it. But im sure, as with everything, only time will tell.
February 19, 2008 4:56:21 PM

Uhh back when the Core 2 series had already been announced, Inquirer was claiming that first Intel would roll out its 5.0GHz series of processors, followed by processors clocked up to 10GHz in 2006.

Why in god's name would you ever count on them for anything but a slightly amusing read?
February 19, 2008 5:13:07 PM

It just isn’t for amusement. INQ takes a stab in the dark with the info it reports. They tend to report rumors but they are interesting none the less. The "amusing" side (a lot of people don't find it amusing) is the high level of unprofessionalism they slip in there and how many people they PO.
a b Î Nvidia
February 19, 2008 5:38:17 PM

rallyimprezive said:
Why would I bother? It was something I thought of that my have added to the conversation. Nothing more. Sorry if it was offensive.


[:mousemonkey:1]
Nono, you misunderstand, not a criticism of you, what I meant was "If you were nVidia, why would you bother delaying hardware for PhysX which you can tack on later as a value add"?

not a comment on why bother posting, it's a good theory, and I'm all for posting theories, it make the discussion more interesting.

Quote:
However, im excited about Physx and I think it may become more than a bonus feature if game devs really decide to embrace it. But im sure, as with everything, only time will tell.


Oh, I agree, I think it will be a great free feature. The only limitation right now is the same that faced Ageia and the PPU, not enough titles. But I think with nVidia backing it it definitely has a better chance than Ageia did against Havok/intel. Right now though for GRAW and UT3 this may be the finally worth it demo to make VPU physics a more viable solution. The only question is whether it is too little too late since both intel and AMD are heading towards fusion as their physics solutions, not the discrete cards. But as a free bonus, it's freakin' great!

But like I said, and you agree, not really worth delaying for, so I think it's likely more serious than waiting for PhysX, but let's hope it's just waiting for a more unified launch after a minor glitch not something more serious. Until then I say give nV the benefit of the doubt up to the 21st.
February 19, 2008 5:42:40 PM

i mean....its called the inquirer, folks!!
their frontpage should be a grocery store line!!!
i'm still waiting for the "batboy's tech reviews" section to gear up, and i suspect i'm yet still to read a report about "elvis using oc'd phenom because he can fry his pb&banana sandwich on it!"

that being said...shockingly enough there may be some truth to this report/rumour. the boys at my local pc store (nvidi-ites if ever there were!) are still waiting, and they said they heard something about "channel delays or recalls".
maybe that dual pcb has elvis thinkin' on some pc gourmet!!
February 19, 2008 5:47:28 PM

Hahaha....dude...whachu talkinbout Willis?
February 19, 2008 6:08:20 PM

jus' talkin 'bout the (national) inquirer and it's journalistic ilk, as well as the potential heat issues that the dual pcb cards are in line for...

also, i hoped to interject a nifty new nickname into our collective idiom....the nvidi'ites. like menonites, but with 1st person shooters (and the occasional edge halos.....sorry, couldn't resist!). its part of a larger story i'm writing involving humans from 1000 years hence learning about the "tech wars of the turn of the millenia", and seeing these wars as being religious in nature (from the veil of 1000 years, any of our intel v amd threads would certainly appear fervent, yes?). there are also the ati'ists (ah-thai-ists)...
and of course, if its ever published....everyone will sue me!
February 19, 2008 6:15:56 PM

dario77 said:
i mean....its called the inquirer, folks!!
their frontpage should be a grocery store line!!!
i'm still waiting for the "batboy's tech reviews" section to gear up, and i suspect i'm yet still to read a report about "elvis using oc'd phenom because he can fry his pb&banana sandwich on it!"


:lol:  :lol:  :na:  I really miss reading the Weekly World News at checkout, especially the "alien supports..." election bits. Never bought it, just read it in the checkout line.

dario77 said:

that being said...shockingly enough there may be some truth to this report/rumour. the boys at my local pc store (nvidi-ites if ever there were!) are still waiting, and they said they heard something about "channel delays or recalls".
maybe that dual pcb has elvis thinkin' on some pc gourmet!!


When the Inquirer is right, they're half right. When they're wrong, they're completely wrong. So, I'm glad this has some retail employee support.

What bothers me is what will happen to physics? I don't play FPS, but I do want to see a fireball affect a tree if I miss (or even if I hit) a daedra in some future TES game. Intel has Havok and Nvidia has Aegia. ATI has what? Will they adopt Microsoft's standard instead?

Well, whatever physics gets put in games, I want it to be more realistic. It was easer knocking a daedra off a waterfall in Oblivion than it was setting a table in the house you bought. FPS physics doesn't really work well in CRPGs.

My Antec Nine Hundred case arrived today. Tomorrow, I should have the Antec Neo 650 so I can finally install the 3870x2 once I move the X2 4600+ and 690V board and 3 hard drives over. Can't wait to benchmark and then play The Witcher!

dario 77, what happened to the rest of your post? I was going to reply say that I like the term nvidi'ites, and when I clicked on reply, I saw the rest of your post wasn't actually shown in the thread. Regarding the rest...

We followers of the red goddess are actually Rubyites. She's a virtual babe compared to whatever Nvidia puts on the side of their cards and packages. They must be Transhumanist scum, those nvidi'ites. Me, I like my virtual girls human.
February 19, 2008 6:21:36 PM

yeah...worked my way through college doing the floors at a grocery on 3rd shift...3 hrs work, 7 hrs paid study/reading/etc. weekly world news was always there to entertain...
and so, for those of our ilk, is the inquirer: dilligently making-it-up-as-we-go-along for over X years!
February 19, 2008 6:28:51 PM

Quote:
We followers of the red goddess are actually Rubyites. She's a virtual babe compared to whatever Nvidia puts on the side of their cards and packages. They must be Transhumanist scum, those nvidi'ites. Me, I like my virtual girls human.


haha...i'll have to interject that into my story! i went with ati'ists because my pronunciation sounded "dune-y"....but i like yours better!
rest of the post is up...and i'd not call the nvidi'ites transhumanist scum...rather a different set of beliefs, and where beliefs clash, so do the people. such is the history of bipeds...
February 19, 2008 7:28:08 PM

are you seriously writing a novel [or short story] of the AMD v intel, nvidia vs ati thing, b/c it actually sounds kind of funny, i would like to read it!

Somewhere in the story you should include historical background as well, include the AMD's attempted buyout, of nvidia, then actually buying ati, then Nvidia's attempt at attempting to buy AMD and all that jazz. You could always dress up the historical information by saying that Nvidia's lands were extremly fertile so AMDists were planning an invasion of said lands or something similar. I would love to read a story like this sometime soon.

Good luck :hello: 
February 19, 2008 7:40:12 PM

more of a novella, or a series of short stories. but yes...it will center around the passionate discourse between "the green and the blue and the red and the green and everyone else in-between."

February 19, 2008 7:53:07 PM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
[:mousemonkey:1]
Nono, you misunderstand, not a criticism of you, what I meant was "If you were nVidia, why would you bother delaying hardware for PhysX which you can tack on later as a value add"?

not a comment on why bother posting, it's a good theory, and I'm all for posting theories, it make the discussion more interesting.

Quote:
However, im excited about Physx and I think it may become more than a bonus feature if game devs really decide to embrace it. But im sure, as with everything, only time will tell.


Oh, I agree, I think it will be a great free feature. The only limitation right now is the same that faced Ageia and the PPU, not enough titles. But I think with nVidia backing it it definitely has a better chance than Ageia did against Havok/intel. Right now though for GRAW and UT3 this may be the finally worth it demo to make VPU physics a more viable solution. The only question is whether it is too little too late since both intel and AMD are heading towards fusion as their physics solutions, not the discrete cards. But as a free bonus, it's freakin' great!

But like I said, and you agree, not really worth delaying for, so I think it's likely more serious than waiting for PhysX, but let's hope it's just waiting for a more unified launch after a minor glitch not something more serious. Until then I say give nV the benefit of the doubt up to the 21st.


:pt1cable:  Oh ok. I wasnt sure. :p 

So then the next logical question, I think, is whether or not support for PhysX could be added on to existing titles as a patch. If thats the case, implementation would/could take a lot less time. Certainly we all feel that the current discrete GPU offerings are hitting some sort of barrier. Multi GPU or multicore GPUs just dont seem as cost effective (for many reasons) as offering a secondary or tertiary processor on board to off-load some of the more specialized processing tasks. Furthermore, im not sure if I like this whole fusion idea. If I understand it correctly, the concept of increasing complexity of the CPU will increase engineering overhead, production costs, and the chance of errata botching the whole thing. Imagine cheaper CPUs with the physics disabled (like the whole 486 sx/dx thing.) All this just seems like a higher cost to the consumer. Whereas implementing physics into the graphics card may be less of a technological challenge.

BUT, I am not an expert in the field so I will just ride whatever wave is created from all of this.
a b Î Nvidia
February 19, 2008 9:46:27 PM

rallyimprezive said:

So then the next logical question, I think, is whether or not support for PhysX could be added on to existing titles as a patch. If thats the case, implementation would/could take a lot less time. Certainly we all feel that the current discrete GPU offerings are hitting some sort of barrier.


Unfortunately it does need to be coded for pretty specifically, but you could patch things, the issue woudl simply be with trying to patch things so it's more than shiny physics yet not break the rest of the game by having the physics do stuff they didn't before. I think there's less payback fro devs to bother coding things backwards, but on ago forward basis it would be much better, especially if you could influence future EPIC games and all those built on the UnrealEngine3.

Quote:
Furthermore, im not sure if I like this whole fusion idea. If I understand it correctly, the concept of increasing complexity of the CPU will increase engineering overhead, production costs, and the chance of errata botching the whole thing. Imagine cheaper CPUs with the physics disabled (like the whole 486 sx/dx thing.) All this just seems like a higher cost to the consumer. Whereas implementing physics into the graphics card may be less of a technological challenge.


Fusion won't involve dedicated physics hardware in it, it will involve CPU+VPU+NB functions in one chip like Larrabee, and it will offer better scalability. Sure you could go the BIG one chip route, but with Larrabee offering4 times the GF8/HD2K power in a single chip, you've got a tough time getting much focus on anything else as a solution because it will likely cut into the mid and low end pretty deep.

As for the technological challenge, physics is already on the CPU so it's definitely less of an effort which is why VPU's have alot of potential because they have better FLOP throughput, but when a single Larrabee will do over 2 Teraflops you lose that advantage, which to me is the issue, if nV can't make GPUs work and work well quickly, then what's the incentive for anyone to jump from the current model when the power people are looking for is coming in less than 2 years in a native CPU form factor (less coding). Looks interesting either way.

The thing to remember is there will be no adding physics to anything, the PPU is dead, completely dead now. A PPU used less than 10% of the time never made sense, but the graphics and CPU solutions always make sense for their various benefits. The main thing will be who can make it easier for developers ands incorporate it quickly into a must have title. UT3 did NOTHING to help the PPU, if anything it raised people's hopes too high only ot have them dashed in a m'eh of mediocrity.

Whomever can give us a feature that truly makes us say "wow I gotta get that to do THAT" will start the shift in a specific direction. IMO it needs to be VPU-based physics that needs that though because right now I don't know any dev who would prefer more coding work to do it on a GPU anymore than a PPU versus sticking to their usual way of doing it in the CPU.

I see the current merits of GPU physics, but nVidia really needs to get working on it in order for it to not become another little checkbox feature that's dropped when it's popularity wanes.
February 20, 2008 6:52:12 PM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:

The thing to remember is there will be no adding physics to anything, the PPU is dead, completely dead now.


Too bad, I would have thought that maybe the adult industry might find some wacky use for the PPU, and thus the physics companies in-tandem with the adult industry would have created something that would make ron jeremy blush. Beacuse we all know if the adult indsutry gets behind something, not only will it thrive but it will sell like hot cakes!
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 
February 20, 2008 7:35:52 PM

Thanks for all the insight Grape Ape. Certainly I need to read up more. I just dont have enough free time to keep up with all this stuff!!

Im to busy at work with other acronyms like DHCP DNS AD, VLAN, VOIP, and MPLS. Not to mention those damn IDPs and MBOs.
a b Î Nvidia
February 20, 2008 8:11:54 PM

Now worries I know what it's like, it was alot easier keeping up to date when I worked out of the CO and had lotsa spare time on the night shift doing my time in the NoTel Hotel.

Yeah those acronyms sound familiar like DSLAM, DS1, DS3, OC48 , SPID, PRI, CICs, MICs, BCMs etc. ;) 
February 21, 2008 4:58:16 AM

dario77 said:
Quote:
We followers of the red goddess are actually Rubyites. She's a virtual babe compared to whatever Nvidia puts on the side of their cards and packages. They must be Transhumanist scum, those nvidi'ites. Me, I like my virtual girls human.


haha...i'll have to interject that into my story! i went with ati'ists because my pronunciation sounded "dune-y"....but i like yours better!
rest of the post is up...and i'd not call the nvidi'ites transhumanist scum...rather a different set of beliefs, and where beliefs clash, so do the people. such is the history of bipeds...


But if red vs. green in graphics is a war of religion, the language has to fit!

Anyways, we know now that the 9600gt will arrive tomorrow, but we don't know when the 9800gx2 or 9800gtx will arrive:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/02/20/nvidia_clears_96...

ATI will have appropriate price drops to match:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/02/20/amd_announces_hd...

Is this just a reaction to the 9600gt's launch, or is the 4870 closer than Nordic Hardware reported (ie June)?

My Antec Neo 650 PSU and the Antec Nine Hundred case arrived Wednesday. I've transferred everything from the old case, but won't install the 3870x2 until tomorrow, as I had to go to work. Hopefully, I'll have some benchies tomorrow night.
!