Watercooling or Aircooling?

[Vengeful Penor]

I am going to be buying a new heat sink. I was thinking should I make the jump to liquid cooling. The reason for this is my new found interest in overclocking. I just picked up an Asus P5Q SE and it has a **** of overclocking features. I got an E6600 to 3.0ghz on stock cooling. Not to shabby in my opinion. Back on topic. Which do you prefer and why? What is a good liquid cooling system? Is liquid cooling hard to maintain? How high could I expect to overclock with a new heatsink/liquid cooling. Thanks in advance.

 

[Silverion77]

Wow....lots of questions...

The main difference between air cooling and liquid cooling is $$$. A GOOD aircooler can do as well as good liquid cooling. A decent liquid cooling system will cost $200-300 where as a good aircooler is around $40-50.

A good one is a Dtek Fusion v2 cpu block, a reservoir of some type, a swiftech/Laing pump and a 2 fan/3 fan radiator (Thermochill is the best but expensive, Swiftech make nice cheaper ones).

As far as overclocking potential, both air and liquid cooling will help a ton. That E6600 could probably get around 3.6.

 

[eklipz330]

feser rads are the best***
i would not suggest a swiftech rad, as i've heard they are poor quality... maybe a dangerden rad? they look good, come in different colors and smaller profiles as well.

the main difference in liquid cooling is the ability to bring down load temps by ALOT... the lowest that air or liquid cooling can get is the ambient temperature, maybe a but lower, but nothing to much... if you wanna go lower than ambient, pelt's and phase change is the way to go

anyway, yeah watercooling is pricey, and if you don;t know what your doing, you;ll screw yourself over.. i suggest you do a couple weeks research on the different type of blocks rads, loops, and pump research before you make the jump to a 'kit'... i'd build my own if it was me

 

[Silverion77]

feser?!?!

Never heard of that brand....

But yea, they both have their limitations, and in all likelyhood, air cooling will suffice especially cause the E6600 will probably hit a wall or reach its highest clock b4 anything too extreme

 

[rubix_1011]

The higher you overclock, the higher your temps are going to be. Watercooling makes a big difference to maintain lower load temps as you push your clocks higher. I have seen lots of people say their Q6600 runs at 48C at load, at 2.4 ghz stock. Can you get it to run at 48C @4.0ghz at load on air? Probably not.

The biggest question here is what you want for the budget you have/want to spend. Obviously that will be the main, deciding factor. If price and performance aren't a problem, let's talk more about specifics.

 

[gamerk316]

A good watercolling kit will far surpass air cooling. My OC'd QX9650 is at only 3.45 GHz. and I've never seen it hit 50C yet. At some point, I'm going to see if I can get to 4 GHz with this baby...

 

[TonyL222]

I saw this in the overclocking forum. Thought you might find it useful:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/191499-29-overclocking-conroe-e6600

At 3Ghz, you probbaly don't need watercooling. There seems to be some who've hit 4Ghz, but GOOD water cooling then is probably a must to be stable. You could probably hit 3.5Ghz on good air.

For cpu only kits I wouldn't look at anything other than the Swiftech H20-220 Apex Ultra of the assembled kits at Petras. For future growth - and believe me you will want to add a gpu eventually - I'd want at least a 3x120mm rad.


http://www.petrastechshop.com/pecoba.html
http://www.jab-tech.com/Water-Cooling-Full-Kits-c-58.html

Other than these kits, it's build your own (which really ain't that hard).

 

[fedtmusen]

On http://www.danamics.com/
they use liquid metal...
Am building as well and it should be ready this months, hopefully....
Still waiting for this serius cooler!
Have a nice build

 

[mford66215]

I'd stick with the air cooling until you feel you've master the art of OC. Once you're up to the level of giving advice on how much voltage to apply, and the nuances of memory timings on your mega uber ram sticks then invest the money into a wet system.

 

[faster3200]

Wow, some good information and some misinformation in this thread. First let me say I agree with using air until you are more comfortable with OCing.
However if you feel you are ready go for it. As long as you do it right WCing will be cooler and quieter than air cooling. It will however, be more expensive. There is a ton to know with component selection for WCing, much more than with air. I can give you a part break down but honestly that is a lot of typing so I will save it unless you actually plan on going with WCing and would like advice.

I would like to say this though:
DD= Old, outdated, crap.
Swiftech rads= Best price/performance.
Thermochill rads= Best performance (about 2-3C better than Swiftech with slightly less restriction)
Fesser rads= Only good for their 120.4 rads. Otherwise they aren't as good as Thermochill and more expensive than Swiftech.

 

[ouch1]

I would like to say this though:
DD= Old, outdated, crap.

WTF are you talking about??? Who do you think designed the first water blocks for the 280GTX??? And the blocks for the BFG pre configured liquid cooled 88xx, 98xx, 2X0 series cards? And has one of the best performing water blocks for multi-cored chips (MC-TDX). Seems to me that you have not checked thier site lately.

Swiftech rads= Best price/performance.

Eh that is your opinion man. And you are entitled to it but next time please use the following: "IMHO"

Thermochill rads= Best performance (about 2-3C better than Swiftech with slightly less restriction)

Thermochill is one of the best out there, and you are correct in stating that. But next time please explain that they are also one of the most expensive and can be hard to find.

-ouch1

 

[faster3200]

WTF are you talking about??? Who do you think designed the first water blocks for the 280GTX??? And the blocks for the BFG pre configured liquid cooled 88xx, 98xx, 2X0 series cards? And has one of the best performing water blocks for multi-cored chips (MC-TDX). Seems to me that you have not checked thier site lately.

Actually tests have proved that both EK and XSPC make better FC blocks. I don't know why you would care who was first out the door, what matters is who is best. Also Danger Den is not known for quality, a google search will show that. Also try reading the newegg reviews of the card with the DD blocks. Currently there are only 4 reviews for the WC version of the GTX260 but I will post the first two that I read.

Cons:
The top acrylic is fairly thin, I have another water block on my cpu and the acrylic on that is about 1 in. With the acrylic being so thin, do not use tools to tighten the top fittings, only tighten them by hand, the bottom fittings that come into contact with copper are fine to use tools to tighten. I ran into a big problem with the top of the waterblock cracking. BFg resovled my problem stat though and got me a new card, SWEET!

Cons:
The waterblock leaked and it was put on very poorly half of the heat contacts weren't touching the chips and there seemed to be a screw just stuck in where it didn't belong on the back underneath the backplate

Also the MC-TDX is an awful block. I will give it that it is not restrictive, which is good but it doesn't compare at all to the EK Supreme, D-Tek Fusion V2, or Swiftech GTZ.

Here is a graph I found from a review:

Take note that it doesn't even beat the Storm, which is an ancient block that has been improved upon many times since.

Eh that is your opinion man. And you are entitled to it but next time please use the following: "IMHO"

Yes, it is my opinion but it kind of make sense. It performs within the Thermochill rad by 2C depending on the fans you use (5C if your fans are set on hurricane) and is the cheapest rad on the market. Seems like a price/performance king to me.

 

[ouch1]

I have no clue where you are getting your info from. Neither my friends nor I have ever had a problem with anything we purchased from Dd. Nor have I ever heard of any problems with the Dd blocks themselves. As for the pre configured BFG cards Dd just sells them the blocks and techs at BFG install them. I have a funny feeling that it the cause of the problems with the blocks not properly contacting the chips.

I have an MC-TDX with a nozzle kit in my rig and it is always with 1C of ambient at idle and usually around 5C over ambient when under load. And that is with a Thermochill 102.2 rad (with 4 silent fans in push pull config), a DD D5 pump, a DD 8800GTS block, and a res. And I have never had a problem with leaking or the acrylic parts cracking.

And FYI I picked all of the parts myself when I used to live about 1.5 hours from Dd.

Now I know for a fact that the MC-TDX design is directly influenced by the Swiftech Apogee. So why would a block that has grid pin design and higher flow rates perform worse than an older jet impingment design with crappy flow rates and a tendency to clog. At least that is what your pasted pic shows. I would like to see where you got it from because that has no proof to backup your claims. Cause all you did was copy and paste but not provide any links. Thats like holding up a piece of paper and letting people read 2 lines before you snatch it away and expect then to know all of what is written on the paper.

-ouch1

 

[rubix_1011]

I am using a TDX as well...never had any problems. I think your argument about rads is fairly inconsistent...most dual pass rads are pretty good these days...its the x-flow or single flow ones you need to be aware of. Besides, you take any dual pass rad, put some good fans on it, and it will do you just fine. I agree that there is a scale of best -> worst, but in all reality, real world application might find that scale to be hit or miss depending on individual setups.

 

[faster3200]

I can't find the review that I got that pic of but here is a review I did find. Keep in mind that Swiftech and D-Tek have since improved their designs and that the GTX is unbowed in the review.

 

[ouch1]

I can't find the review that I got that pic of but here is a review I did find. Keep in mind that Swiftech and D-Tek have since improved their designs and that the GTX is unbowed in the review.

LOL in that review the GTX and the TDX are usually neck and neck or within 1C of each other. And the TDX is not designed for the QUAD core they were testing it on. Heck they even show where the TDX is better than the GTX. I knew that the TDX was a good block. But again you are comparing a older block to a newer one.

Take a look at this one: http://www.virtual-hideout.net/reviews/DangerDen_M5_MC-TDX_Waterblocks/index.shtml
I know it is comparing an old block to a new one but this should give you some info to help you.

-ouch1

 

[faster3200]

LOL in that review the GTX and the TDX are usually neck and neck or within 1C of each other. And the TDX is not designed for the QUAD core they were testing it on. Heck they even show where the TDX is better than the GTX. I knew that the TDX was a good block. But again you are comparing a older block to a newer one.

Take a look at this one: http://www.virtual-hideout.net/reviews/DangerDen_M5_MC-TDX_Waterblocks/index.shtml
I know it is comparing an old block to a new one but this should give you some info to help you.

-ouch1

You have to remember that the GTX drops temps about 5C when bowed, which they didn't do. It is still 4C off from the D-Tek which means that current blocks will be better by about 7C better at least.

Yes, in that review you posted they did improve over previous models but, that is to be expected. I suppose what I said earlier was a bit too harshly worded but there is no way you can compare it favorably to the EK Supreme, Swiftech GTZ, or D-Tek Fusion v2.

 

[Conumdrum]

Guys guys........ DD makes good blocks. The TDX has been beat buy the newer Fuzion 2 and the new GTZ.

I run DD FC GPU blocks, but there are other decent manufacturers too.

Rads....

3 types of rads on the outside, who cares whats on the inside except flow rate. The most popular rads right now in order of purchase is MCR, PA, Fesser. The MCR series is a LOT cheaper but is a pretty good performer too.

You got ones than need really loud fans to cool (BIX etc)
You got ones that need lesser speed fans (MCR)
Then you have Fesser and Thermochill brands that excel at quieter fans and are able to cool lots with loud fans. Of course these cost 2-3 times the amount of the first two classes.

 

[ElMoIsEviL]

I have no clue where you are getting your info from. Neither my friends nor I have ever had a problem with anything we purchased from Dd. Nor have I ever heard of any problems with the Dd blocks themselves. As for the pre configured BFG cards Dd just sells them the blocks and techs at BFG install them. I have a funny feeling that it the cause of the problems with the blocks not properly contacting the chips.

I have an MC-TDX with a nozzle kit in my rig and it is always with 1C of ambient at idle and usually around 5C over ambient when under load. And that is with a Thermochill 102.2 rad (with 4 silent fans in push pull config), a DD D5 pump, a DD 8800GTS block, and a res. And I have never had a problem with leaking or the acrylic parts cracking.

And FYI I picked all of the parts myself when I used to live about 1.5 hours from Dd.

Now I know for a fact that the MC-TDX design is directly influenced by the Swiftech Apogee. So why would a block that has grid pin design and higher flow rates perform worse than an older jet impingment design with crappy flow rates and a tendency to clog. At least that is what your pasted pic shows. I would like to see where you got it from because that has no proof to backup your claims. Cause all you did was copy and paste but not provide any links. Thats like holding up a piece of paper and letting people read 2 lines before you snatch it away and expect then to know all of what is written on the paper.

-ouch1

He wasn't nice how he said it but what he said was factual.

Current top 5 CPU blocks for Quad Core Processors:
1- Swiftech Apogee GTZ
2- EK Supreme
3- D-TEK FuZion v2
4- D-TEK FuZion
5- Swiftech Apogee GT & GTX based on what options are used.

The TDX-MC is not based on the Apogee Design. It is simply a TDX with a larger surface area to work with Multi Core processors. It is actually based on the DD RBX which is based on Cathar's Whitewater block (from Little River). It's not that great of a block to be honest.

As for full cover GPU blocks.. EK FC series are bar none the best. XSPC come second with Alphacool coming in third. DD isn't even a contender there either.

 

[Superhal]

imho, the higher the overclock, the exponentially more voltage you need to maintain it, and the more voltage, the stronger the cooler.

check out www.ripping.org, and try to get some information about your chip. usually, there's certain thresholds where oc'ers have to use water, then phase change, then cascade, then l2n, etc. it's very very rare to see air in the top 10 for any chip.

this will give you a relatively accurate idea of the cooling power you'll need for a given chip at given voltage at a given overclock.