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ati 3870 x2 vs nvidia 9800 gx2

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March 9, 2008 6:44:48 PM

http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&ta...

I just finished reading that article, but I am a bit skeptical. Basically the article states that the new 9800 gx2 graphics cards (which are scheduled to come out on the 11th) will be faster than the 3870 x2 video cards. I know that nvidia's high end hardware has typically been better than ATI's high end items, but how could the 9800 gx2 be faster? The gpu's on those were made using the 65nm process. I heard that the ATI gpu's were made using a 55nm process. So how could the 9800 gx2 outdo the 3870 x2? Is there something that I forgot to look at?
March 9, 2008 7:14:28 PM

nm has little to do with overall performance just because it is 55 doesn't mean its better look at speeds ram amount tech level of card features
March 9, 2008 7:50:57 PM

Its the same reason why 8800GTS 512 is better then a single 3870. Process allows for cheaper construction, less heat, less power, therefor clocks higher less noise etc etc.

Related resources
March 9, 2008 7:51:04 PM

a single chip 3870 would be slower than a single 8800 chip, so it makes sence that the double-chip Nvidia is faster.
March 9, 2008 8:56:01 PM

The 9800gx2 should be faster, but I don't think it will be faster by all that much. It's also a dinosaur in other areas. it's two PCB's vs. one.

A 3870x2 has two GPU's on one PCB, while the 9800gx2 has one GPU on each PCB and two PCB's are SLI'd together in one package.

9800gx2:




Note that two PCB's next to each other takes up a bit more room than one PCB, but if anyone has an SLI board, it probably won't matter all that much. Both are still dual slot cards, because of cooling. I just think the 3870x2 design is better.

Two are seen above in one setup. It all depends on drivers for games whether SLI is recognized, but like Crossfire with the 3870x2, it should all be internal and you shouldn't need an SLI board.

3870x2:



I have the MSI 3870x2. It runs pretty good. I was concerned about GPU-Z info on the clocks of one GPU differing from those given for both in CCC ATI Overdrive, but RivaTuner confirmed CCC and GPU-Z seems to have problems recognizing the actual clocks.

Nordic Hardware says the 4870x2 is arriving in June, along with the 4870. One 4870 is expected to be 50% faster than a 3870, and a 3870x2 is basically 46% faster, so the 4870x2 should be great. I plan on getting a new 770 or 790 board, a Phenom 9750 and a 4850 for CrossfireX by the fall. The 4850 is clocked the same as my overclocked 3870x2.

http://www.nordichardware.com/news,7356.html

Nvidia's CEO may not like it, but dual GPU cards are the wave of the future, at least until dual core cards arrive, then it will be the same principle.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/200802132253...
March 9, 2008 9:24:54 PM

Ok, thanks for the input guys.
a b U Graphics card
March 9, 2008 9:41:33 PM

Just remember, the Athlon 64s were 90 NM while the heatburst P4s were 65, and they werent better/faster
March 9, 2008 9:58:58 PM

Personally i don't see with the dual PCB design how this can offer better bang for buck then a 3870X2. My 3870X2 probably will run a lot cooler then the 9800X2 as well, and therefore overclock a little better. Heck even when overclocked it doesn't go over 58 degrees.

Rumours say this will be priced around $599
March 9, 2008 10:04:34 PM

acidpython said:
Personally i don't see with the dual PCB design how this can offer better bang for buck then a 3870X2. My 3870X2 probably will run a lot cooler then the 9800X2 as well, and therefore overclock a little better. Heck even when overclocked it doesn't go over 58 degrees.

Rumours say this will be priced around $599


As of now, that is still rumor. If the 3870 x2 cards turn out to be more economical, then I will get those. I wrote a new response to the post in the mobo section.
March 9, 2008 10:30:13 PM

yipsl said:


Nordic Hardware says the 4870x2 is arriving in June, along with the 4870. One 4870 is expected to be 50% faster than a 3870, and a 3870x2 is basically 46% faster, so the 4870x2 should be great. I plan on getting a new 770 or 790 board, a Phenom 9750 and a 4850 for CrossfireX by the fall. The 4850 is clocked the same as my overclocked 3870x2.

http://www.nordichardware.com/news,7356.html



4870 = 3870x2 :fou: 

What the hell are Ati doing, the 8800gtx will be 2 years old by then and still able beat it in some games....

Why is the industry so slow?

Have they hit a wall?


March 9, 2008 10:31:08 PM

mikekazik1 said:
As of now, that is still rumor. If the 3870 x2 cards turn out to be more economical, then I will get those. I wrote a new response to the post in the mobo section.


My bet is that Nvidia's MSRP will be closer to $450 to $499, but the actual street price will be higher, whereas the 3870x2 stayed at the MSRP upon release (unlike the original 3870). I still don't like the 9800gx2's design, even if it's faster. After all, the 4870x2 is right around the corner. How close is Nvidia's next generation?

dos1986 said:
4870 = 3870x2 :fou: 

What the hell are Ati doing, the 8800gtx will be 2 years old by then and still able beat it in some games....

Why is the industry so slow?

Have they hit a wall?



What the hell is ATI doing? A single GPU card that's twice as fast as a 3870, which is where the 3870x2 is today. The 4870x2 should be 50% faster than a 4870. That looks good to me. Do you expect a card that's 100% faster every year? Just think of the 4870x2 as 100% faster than the 3870 and you won't be disappointed!

As far as it goes, I believe they've hit a wall with single GPU's. The future should be multicore GPU's. Just image CrossfireX on one card with two dual core GPU's. By then, CrossfireX should support two of those cards for four dual core GPU's. If Nvidia keeps up with mammoth single core GPU's then I think they'll hit a wall. What needs to come next is to allow one huge block of RAM on a card that all the GPU cores can access, instead of each GPU having it's own block of 512.
March 9, 2008 10:38:35 PM

mikekazik1 said:
As of now, that is still rumor. If the 3870 x2 cards turn out to be more economical, then I will get those. I wrote a new response to the post in the mobo section.


Dont waste your hard earned with the HD3870x2/9800gx2 Mike...

Get a 8800gts for $240, overclock it to the max and you can play every game out now/coming out in the next 3 months on high (except Crysis)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

By then with any luck Nvidia/Ati might have something decent at high end out...
March 9, 2008 10:42:34 PM

yipsl said:
My bet is that Nvidia's MSRP will be closer to $450 to $499, but the actual street price will be higher, whereas the 3870x2 stayed at the MSRP upon release (unlike the original 3870). I still don't like the 9800gx2's design, even if it's faster. After all, the 4870x2 is right around the corner. How close is Nvidia's next generation?




What the hell is ATI doing? A single GPU card that's twice as fast as a 3870, which is where the 3870x2 is today. The 4870x2 should be 50% faster than a 4870. That looks good to me. Do you expect a card that's 100% faster every year? Just think of the 4870x2 as 100% faster than the 3870 and you won't be disappointed!

As far as it goes, I believe they've hit a wall with single GPU's. The future should be multicore GPU's. Just image CrossfireX on one card with two dual core GPU's. By then, CrossfireX should support two of those cards for four dual core GPU's. If Nvidia keeps up with mammoth single core GPU's then I think they'll hit a wall. What needs to come next is to allow one huge block of RAM on a card that all the GPU cores can access, instead of each GPU having it's own block of 512.


How is 50% twice as fast?

50% faster than a HD3870 is 8800gtx/ultra level...

Hardly ground breaking now is it?





a b U Graphics card
March 9, 2008 10:50:22 PM

Saying its 5% faster than the Ultra...and the X2 playing crysis, it should work. The single will be faster than the Ultra
March 10, 2008 5:30:44 AM

dos1986 said:
How is 50% twice as fast?

50% faster than a HD3870 is 8800gtx/ultra level...

Hardly ground breaking now is it?


The 4870 is expected to be twice as fast as the 3870. Currently, a 3870x2 is twice as fast as the 3870. Got that part?

So, an upcoming single GPU will be as fast as today's dual GPU ATI solution. That's not a bad improvement from one generation to the next.

In that upcoming generation, there will be a dual GPU card that should be faster still. If the 4870x2 scales in relation to the 4870 the way the 3870x2 scales in relation to the 3870; then the 4870x2 will be 50% faster than the 4870 and 100% faster than today's 3870.

Okay, I will flame you mildly for liking Nvidia's "groundbreaking" technology:

Why is it that Nvidia has to put two GPU's on two PCB's instead of actually going ATI's route with groundbreaking technology that's one PCB with dual GPU's at the high end? Dual GPU's at the high end is a step towards dual core GPU's, which I guess Huang won't go for because he likes his GPU's massive, hot and prone to failure from leakage issues if anyone keeps it past one year; or overclocks it past a few months.

In other words, I don't see Nvidia coming out with anything amazing or innovative that really competes with ATI when games aren't bribed to be "TWIMTBP" or when drivers aren't fudged to show more fps by decreasing image quality (Crysis demo anyone?).

Just don't take any of this personally. Most of the cards by Nvidia and ATI are quite good and both companies have had failures like the 2900XT and the 7950gx2. We'll see if the 9800gx2 is also a failure, but the 3870x2 is a success and the way GPU's are going at the high end, whether Huang likes it or not.
March 10, 2008 11:24:00 AM

Hatman said:
Its the same reason why 8800GTS 512 is better then a single 3870. Process allows for cheaper construction, less heat, less power, therefor clocks higher less noise etc etc.


Sorry what are you driving at?

the rv670 core is tiny compared to a g82 and still quite a bit smaller than the g84, so should be cheaper to produce than either:

www.techreport.com/articles.x/14168

(a size comparison of the chips is on this review I think but I can't access techreport's website today for some reason)
March 10, 2008 12:24:34 PM

yipsl said:
The 4870 is expected to be twice as fast as the 3870. Currently, a 3870x2 is twice as fast as the 3870. Got that part?



[QUOTE Yipsl]

One 4870 is expected to be 50% faster than a 3870

[/QUOTE]

Again how is that twice as fast?
a b U Graphics card
March 10, 2008 1:04:58 PM

A single 4870 will be around 5% faster than the 3870X2. Being the X2 is around 5-10% faster than the Ultra, that makes it a solid 10% better than the Ultra, IF any of this rings true. And thats NOT counting the ocing, nor the pre-oceed cards
a b U Graphics card
March 10, 2008 2:36:17 PM

600? I hope theyre screamers for that price, cause if its only as good as a Ultra.... this sucks
March 10, 2008 3:10:28 PM

that's a stupid price for that card especially if it is true that it's a 30% increase over the ultra.

besides, i got my sights set on the 9800gtx as i now have the EVGA 8800gt and still good for the step-up program!
March 11, 2008 6:28:15 PM

dos1986 said:
Dont waste your hard earned with the HD3870x2/9800gx2 Mike...

Get a 8800gts for $240, overclock it to the max and you can play every game out now/coming out in the next 3 months on high (except Crysis)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

By then with any luck Nvidia/Ati might have something decent at high end out...


Is the 8800gts the most economical of the mid-range graphics cards? How future-proof would this card be? The reason why I ask is that I don't want to have to purchase a new one a few months later.
a b U Graphics card
March 11, 2008 6:41:46 PM

The GTS performs amongst the best of all cards. If I wetre you, Id wait for one more week and have a hard look at the 9800s
March 11, 2008 6:57:26 PM

Do you know the MSRP for the 9800s?
a b U Graphics card
March 11, 2008 6:59:49 PM

No, Ive heaard the 9800x2 to be around 600USD, so, going by that, a GTX maybe just under 300
a b U Graphics card
March 11, 2008 7:15:38 PM

The question with that is, using the nforce mobo, is it using a 100 MHz PCI bus? Also, if he isnt using SLI, it isnt his besy option
March 11, 2008 8:38:30 PM

Since I want a 45nm processor for my new build, some people in the mobo forum recommended the asus maximus formula. And yes, I would like sli.
March 11, 2008 10:59:03 PM

I would get the GTS 512 after the 9800gtx comes out. it will be dirty cheap and still be a great card capable of playing anything maxed(exept Crysis) for the nex 3/4 year.

I am thinking that based on the 9800x2 and GTX's performance. Nvidia might be buying some time to release their next Fully redone architecture in about a year. Of course just rumor.

Want cheap. GTS. want more 9800GTX not X2
March 11, 2008 11:19:57 PM

And what are these rumors about a new architecture?
March 12, 2008 5:56:19 AM

dos1986 said:


Again how is that twice as fast?


It's late, when I typed "twice as fast" I meant 50% faster (probably based on 3DMark06).

For example, the 4870x2 should be 50% faster than 4870. The 4870 is expected to be 50% faster than the 3870 (and 5% faster than 3870x2 as jaydeejohn pointed out). It is the 4870x2 that's twice as fast as the 3870. Got a problem with that?

All I meant to say is that the 4870 and 4870x2 are great improvements over the 3870 and 3870x2 and will compete nicely against the 9800gtx and 9800gx2. Usually, Nvidia and ATI are neck and neck and we rarely see generations like the FX where ATI's a clear winner or the 2900XT where Nvidia clearly wins. Of course, you sound like an Nvidia booster who can't tolerate any improvement in the other company's card's performance, or lag in technology or performance by Nvidia. Get over it.

There is no twice as fast in the real world as it varies by game; and by individual PC. For example, all the Nvidia fans who automatically assume the 9600gt is faster than the 3870 or that the 8800gtx Ultra is faster than the 3870x2 ignore benchmarks where their card is not faster. I've also noted that benchmarks get skewed if the CPU's used are always the Extreme Edition versions, which most gamers don't have.

Is there an area where one company is twice as fast? Yep, I think the dual PCB of the 9800gx2 shows Nvidia's twice as fast in driving off the technology track and into a brick wall of overheating, bad performance and outdated architecture. :pt1cable:  You can quote me on that! :lol: 

I do think the 9800gtx will be a decent card, however.

Nvidia could have done much better with the 9800gx2, but they chose not to.
!