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PCI Express. Faster than AGP my azz!

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  • Graphics Cards
  • Power Supplies
  • PCI Express
  • Graphics
Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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March 20, 2008 10:31:52 PM


Ok, I want some answers! After years and years of hearing how "AGP is dying, get PCI Express, its the future, its waaay faster than AGP will ever be!", I have a problem.

You see, I bought a GeForce FX 5900XT AGP for my wife's PC, and it works pretty good. I get over 12000 3D Marks in 3DMark 2001, I probably could get more, but Dell put an inadequate Power Supply in the unit. I got my son a PC with a stronger power supply so I swapped his GeForce Ti 4600(LeadTek Winfast A250 Ultra), which didn't require secondary power with the 5900XT and it got over 11000 3D Marks. My wife's PC is a 2.8GHZ Pentium 4

Now here's the problem. My computer is an Athlon 64 w/PCI Express. And I've been thinking, Well since PCI Express is SOOOOO much faster than AGP, I should be able to get a lower spec card and still be able to match the speed of their cards, right?...

WRONG!!!

I bought a Radeon X1300, and only got 9975 3D Marks!!! What gives?! I mean I figured it may be slower because according to the VGA hierarchy chart it was lower spec than either of those two cards? but I thought it would at least come close to the LeadTek card!

In other words, I think that people that have been writing these articles about graphics cards have been VERY irresponsible in how they've been harping on the apparent death of the AGP bus. And I no longer believe it when someone says a mainstream card won't run as fast on an AGP bus as it will on a PCI Express bus. I mean, it may hold true that a 7800GT may be held back by an AGP bus, That doesn't hold true for a 7300GT. And I'd bet that even a 7600, 8600, or 9600GT would run at full speed on an AGP bus as well.

I think that in the future when someone writes a review for a videocard, they need to leave the AGP bus alone, unless they're talking about a high end videocard. I have a feeling mainstream cards will continue to run fine on an AGP 8X bus for a looong time!

More about : pci express faster agp azz

March 20, 2008 10:46:46 PM

Mate this is simply.

You're comparing the HIGHEST end 5 series card, to one of the LOWEST end X1000 Series cards.

BUS has nothing to do with it... PCI-Express doesnt mean DOUBLE THE SPEED.... it simply means it can theoretically double the date throughput...

Thats like expecting a 7600GT AGP card to be half the speed of a 7600GT PCI-Express card... is that what you're suggesting here?

And 3DMark scores count for nothing, especially where 2001 is concerned! By the time the 5 series and X1000 series cards were released, GPU's were already perfected for those types of tests present in the benchmark program..... so all that matters then really is the sheer horsepower of the cards. In this case, the 5 series card wins outright... since it's a 256bit bus, compared to a 64 / 128bit bus of the ATi card.... which is effectively half / quarter the data bandwidth.

You AGP 5 series card probably kicks out 22GB/S, compared the X1300 with around 6 - 12GB/s... That's alot less bandwidth there and it STILL managed to scores only slightly lower than your 5 series card.

HERES A TIP

Benchmark ALL your cards on 3DMark05/06. I guarantee your X1300 will come out on top.

March 20, 2008 10:53:37 PM

Another thing you're forgetting here...... manufacturers are slowly ending production of these kinds of cards. Look at PCI cards, hardly any available and they're all 2 - 3 generations behind current spec...

The same goes for nvidia's AGP... nothing since 7 series...
No PCI cards since 6 series (OK, 8500GT was PCI too but damn expensive and no good for intense gaming)

Like i said before, the 3DMark program is useless in respect to how you're using it... Install 3DMark06 and watch that 5900XT die a death whilst the X1300 card struggles by and actually completes the SM3.0 tests.

I predict around 300 points for 5900XT, no joke.

I predict around 1300 points for X1300, depending on bus / model.
Related resources
March 20, 2008 10:57:22 PM

the poster just shut his mouth!talking nonsense!doesnt even understand the basic.
March 20, 2008 11:01:44 PM

Agreed... if the poster had actually benchmarked two of the same cards on both AGP and PCI-Express he'd of found little difference in performance.

PCI-Express has so many advantages over AGP.... not just for 3DMark01's sake.

I think the OP needs to move on with the times, using a 7 year old benchmark to compare cards isnt going to give any meaningful results in 2008.
March 20, 2008 11:15:49 PM

i guess he still got a 14"crt monitor or a black and white tv at home!lol
March 20, 2008 11:41:47 PM

EISA!
March 20, 2008 11:42:12 PM

lolololololololololol
a b U Graphics card
March 20, 2008 11:47:13 PM

Heck with that, Im going all out and buying this Pcie stuff, from alienware. I like taking chances. Its called SLI
March 20, 2008 11:51:23 PM

warya said:
Ok, I want some answers! After years and years of hearing how "AGP is dying, get PCI Express, its the future, its waaay faster than AGP will ever be!", I have a problem.

You see, I bought a GeForce FX 5900XT AGP for my wife's PC, and it works pretty good. I get over 12000 3D Marks in 3DMark 2001, I probably could get more, but Dell put an inadequate Power Supply in the unit. I got my son a PC with a stronger power supply so I swapped his GeForce Ti 4600(LeadTek Winfast A250 Ultra), which didn't require secondary power with the 5900XT and it got over 11000 3D Marks. My wife's PC is a 2.8GHZ Pentium 4

Now here's the problem. My computer is an Athlon 64 w/PCI Express. And I've been thinking, Well since PCI Express is SOOOOO much faster than AGP, I should be able to get a lower spec card and still be able to match the speed of their cards, right?...

WRONG!!!

I bought a Radeon X1300, and only got 9975 3D Marks!!! What gives?! I mean I figured it may be slower because according to the VGA hierarchy chart it was lower spec than either of those two cards? but I thought it would at least come close to the LeadTek card!

In other words, I think that people that have been writing these articles about graphics cards have been VERY irresponsible in how they've been harping on the apparent death of the AGP bus. And I no longer believe it when someone says a mainstream card won't run as fast on an AGP bus as it will on a PCI Express bus. I mean, it may hold true that a 7800GT may be held back by an AGP bus, That doesn't hold true for a 7300GT. And I'd bet that even a 7600, 8600, or 9600GT would run at full speed on an AGP bus as well.

I think that in the future when someone writes a review for a videocard, they need to leave the AGP bus alone, unless they're talking about a high end videocard. I have a feeling mainstream cards will continue to run fine on an AGP 8X bus for a looong time!


:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 

AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAA..... thats the best laugh that I've had all week.

THANK YOU!

Honestly, I'm sure your a nice guy and all, but if you don't understand something you shouldn't rant about it unless you want to be made fun of or enjoy looking stupid or like an ass.

And if you don't understand something... there's nothing wrong with asking for clarification and people are more than happy to explain it to you. People here are pretty nice but when you start ranting like a jackass you're going to get flamed.
March 21, 2008 12:00:11 AM

what tha hell??????? is this for real?
March 21, 2008 12:00:56 AM

doubletake33 said:
what tha hell??????? is this for real?


I was asking myself the same thing. lol
March 21, 2008 12:03:03 AM

i think he just want to start a raapage!lol apg should be thrown out the windows nowadays
March 21, 2008 12:05:54 AM

jkflipflop98 said:
Long live ISA!



VESA local bus FTW!!
March 21, 2008 12:07:27 AM

still using a pci trident. Works great wiff bf2
March 21, 2008 12:08:48 AM

no offensive but have you look new games with brilliant graphics and eye candy?
March 21, 2008 12:25:03 AM

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a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 12:43:44 AM

PCIe is not faster than AGP. The only real advantage with PCIe is more powa!
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 12:45:58 AM

Even more with Pci2
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 12:48:18 AM

And the exact same argument applies. PCIe 2.0 is no faster than PCIe 1.0, but it could be faster if you send enough data to saturate a PCIe 1.x bus.
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 12:57:20 AM

No wayzzzzorzzzorzzzz arrrggghhh NOT heheh
March 21, 2008 1:01:02 AM

Your 12K score in 3DMark01 is....almost a zero today.
A -stock- PCIE card today gets around 12K in 3DMark-06 which your card prob can't even run.

I think I was getting over 65K in 3DMark 01 with my 2 year old 7900GT....never tryed my new 8800GTS (G92) on it but -stock- it gets 12K in 3DMark-06 or over 2 times what my 7900GT's OC'd get.
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 1:08:08 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
No wayzzzzorzzzorzzzz arrrggghhh NOT heheh

I think my previous post wasn't really saying anything. :lol:  I should have said:

"PCIe 2.0 is no faster than PCIe 1.0, but it could be faster if you send enough data to saturate a PCIe 1.x bus. And the exact same argument applies to AGP vs PCIe in general."
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 1:10:35 AM

yup
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 1:13:16 AM

I do believe were soon reaching that point, as at 8x you can start to see the difference, tho itll be awhile still
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 1:18:10 AM

ZOldDude said:
Your 12K score in 3DMark01 is....almost a zero today.
A -stock- PCIE card today gets around 12K in 3DMark-06 which your card prob can't even run.

I think I was getting over 65K in 3DMark 01 with my 2 year old 7900GT....never tryed my new 8800GTS (G92) on it but -stock- it gets 12K in 3DMark-06 or over 2 times what my 7900GT's OC'd get.

He could run it as long as his CPU supports SSE, which it does. I doubt he'd break 1000 though :lol: 

@warya: I got over 25000 in 3dMark01 last year when I ran it on an x1950 pro and a single core athlon 64 3700. To put things in perspective:

You bought a brand new Daihatsu Charade (your X1300) and are comparing it to an old Ferrari F50 (Ti4600).
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 1:20:46 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
I do believe were soon reaching that point, as at 8x you can start to see the difference, tho itll be awhile still

But that is not because PCIe 1.x is "too slow", it's because you are cutting the number of useable lanes in half.
March 21, 2008 1:25:17 AM

long live intel 8086!!!

i wish that companies would still release a pci card or 2 just so i could hook up an extra monitor. (3 monitors weeeeeeeeeeeeeee)
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 1:32:10 AM

Matrox ftw!
March 21, 2008 1:41:44 AM

and douche-bag of the year goes too..........
March 21, 2008 2:02:11 AM

I think the original poster will change his mind about how great AGP is when he attempts to complete a full 3DMARK06 benchmark.

Especially when his low end PCI-Express X1300 outperforms the AGP 5900XT by around 400%
a c 177 U Graphics card
a c 94 ) Power supply
March 21, 2008 2:16:22 AM

Quote:
Especially when his low end PCI-Express X1300 outperforms the AGP 5900XT by around 400%


Would the 5900XT even be able to run 06? I thought you needed SM3 inorder to run that.

Either way, thanks OP for posting this. It was worth reading just for the laugh I had. Why are you comparing the best of one series against the lowest of other, and expect different results just because of the bus thats its on? Why don't you try testing a SATAII drive against a SATA drive and report back with that? Even a current IDE drive should have no problems keeping up with a SATA drive. The bus doesn't make the difference, the chip on the card does.
a c 119 U Graphics card
a c 86 ) Power supply
March 21, 2008 2:58:33 AM

PCI-E in an interface. so it only has an effect if the card can use the extra bandwidth. Its kind of like putting a hard drive that can write 100megs/sec into a Pentium 133. No matter how fast that drive is the 133 will never be able to send data that fast....its not the hard drives fault. Toms did a test on some older cards and showed that even AGP 8x was not being fully used, But new high end card(like the Geforce8) would. its better to be standard. so PCI-E it is....
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 3:11:04 AM

And don't forget: MOAR POWA!
March 21, 2008 3:25:09 AM

If you stay focused on what a benchmark tells you is good instead of actually using a card then you'll loose focus on what you really want: A good looking display.
a b U Graphics card
a b ) Power supply
March 21, 2008 3:34:34 AM

Hahahahaha!!

Funny thread.
Kinda got me wondering what my machine would be pushing on the old benchmarks.
So, I did the sensible thing...
Drank more beer and ran some benchmarks!

Da hardware...
3.0Ghz quad
8800GTS 640 660/1535/925
4 gigs @ 800 4.4.4.12

The methodology...
Simple rules,
Install benchmarks
hit run benchmark
drink more beer

And what I gets:

For 3D Mark:
'06: 13163
'05: 19755
'03: 39700
'01: 60756
'00: 42201
'99: Doesn't run anymore, very sad :( 

And who could forget good old AquaMark!!
got a sweet 180,817!

Hows that for a PCIe bus :kaola:  :kaola: 

Now scuse me, gotta finish drinkin my beer...
a c 119 U Graphics card
a c 86 ) Power supply
March 21, 2008 4:18:14 AM

randomizer said:
And don't forget: MOAR POWA!

AGP pro had more power too :p 
March 21, 2008 5:21:22 AM

rerun the benchmark on the x1300 at 800x600, and the 5900 at 1280x1024. i bet you'll find they are real close numbers!. Wait! AGP is faster now! Back to the Voodoo 3!
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 5:52:06 AM

As soon as I mod these chrome muffler bearings to my mobo, just watch what my agp system can do
March 21, 2008 6:00:25 AM

dev1se said:
Mate this is simply.

You're comparing the HIGHEST end 5 series card, to one of the LOWEST end X1000 Series cards.

BUS has nothing to do with it... PCI-Express doesnt mean DOUBLE THE SPEED.... it simply means it can theoretically double the date throughput...

Thats like expecting a 7600GT AGP card to be half the speed of a 7600GT PCI-Express card... is that what you're suggesting here?

And 3DMark scores count for nothing, especially where 2001 is concerned! By the time the 5 series and X1000 series cards were released, GPU's were already perfected for those types of tests present in the benchmark program..... so all that matters then really is the sheer horsepower of the cards. In this case, the 5 series card wins outright... since it's a 256bit bus, compared to a 64 / 128bit bus of the ATi card.... which is effectively half / quarter the data bandwidth.

You AGP 5 series card probably kicks out 22GB/S, compared the X1300 with around 6 - 12GB/s... That's alot less bandwidth there and it STILL managed to scores only slightly lower than your 5 series card.

HERES A TIP

Benchmark ALL your cards on 3DMark05/06. I guarantee your X1300 will come out on top.


for sure bro, i get like 20k 3dmark01...maybe closer to 30k. should compare your 5900 to say, a x1650 or something..more of a comparison with new tech and old tech performance wise.
March 21, 2008 10:10:53 AM

Nah he's got no need to... the AGP slot gives all the performance he needs!

11,000 on 3DMark01 people!
March 21, 2008 11:49:49 AM

Guy is an idiot.
March 21, 2008 11:54:18 AM

I'm pretty sure the OP has fled to Canada.
March 21, 2008 12:07:14 PM

rodney_ws said:
I'm pretty sure the OP has fled to Canada.


Lets hope he learned something from this thread an opted for a 5 year old Passenger Jet instead of a brand new skateboard to get there. :D 
March 21, 2008 12:33:24 PM

AGP Faster than PCI my azz!

What the helllzzz!? I ran 3Dmark01 and my PCI Voodoo 3 card beat the slice of buttered toast I put in my AGP slot? I thought AGP was supposed to be liek awesome sauce! How can my AGP buttered toast get beat by something in a PCI slot. I though AGP was liek 8x as fast as PCI... shouldn't my score with my slice of buttered toast be eight times the Voodoo? I even OC'd the toast and it still lost.

WTFBBQPWN!!!!!!??!!1111
a c 365 U Graphics card
a b ) Power supply
March 21, 2008 12:38:03 PM

Man, what an idiot.
March 21, 2008 1:29:09 PM

how about you get a AGP 7300GT and a pcie 7300GT and run it at 1280x with 2AA.thats the right way to compare stuff.OMG!!!
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2008 1:39:07 PM

All this new technology is confusing me..agp or sli- 1 core or 2, and now they have 3 and four, think Ill stick with my 286 and pong
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