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I tried out the Phenom 9600 Black Edition (FAIL)

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March 16, 2008 1:43:54 AM

Well about 2 days ago, I bought a Athlon Phenom 9600 Black Edition (2.3 ghz). I upgraded from the Athlon 5000+ Black Edition @ 2.6 ghz (overclocked to 3.4). I was very happy with the Athlon 5000. It was a good overclocker, while still maintaining a good temperature.

I got really excited about getting the Phenom 9600 black Edition, I was thinking this must be insane overclocker. Ummmm... Access Denied.

Lets start.

Stock CPU voltage. Got it to a stable 2.4 Ghz. Yes just 100 mhz.
I put the voltage up bit by bit, hoping that it will soon be safe to overclock it more. Nope

So the max clock setting I could Acheive from the Multicore CPU, was 2.4 Ghz.

All that aside. Ever heard of the TBL patch? Well I did. But I thought it was...pardon my french... B*llsh*t.
Well it wasn't.

I put it to the test:

With TBL patch: Valve Stress test- 155.56 fps.
With out TBL patch: Valve Stress Test- 224.45 fps

Almost a full 100 frames more??? Are you serious???

So my choice was, either performance or Stability. Is that a choice you want to make for a 300$ CPU????

After doing a 3Dmark 2006, I achieved about 2300 Points, while with the TBL patch I acheived about 2100 points.

So if I were you I'd either go Intel ( I did, bought a Q6600 @ 2.4 (oced to 3.4 WOW)) or wait for the revision 9650 which should be coming out soon.

I was an AMD fanboy....not anymore. I was ready to sacrifice perfromance and go with AMD but not keeping a performance promise and not having the balls to recall the damn CPUs ....well you think about that.

They state 5%- 7% decrease...as you can see from the tests its about 30% for some tests. And if you go on the internet you'll see tests showing even as much as a 50-66% decrease.

Well just wanted to warn some people. :D 



March 16, 2008 2:25:58 AM

Thats exactly how I feel. You'd think that since they are in the gutter, they would atleast recall the items so that they wouldn't loose what they have left. Thank god IBM is taking control (hopfully). We'll see where it goes.
March 16, 2008 2:37:00 AM

Well unless you're heavily into running virtualisation software you'll never experience the TLB error. And even if you are a heavy user of virtualisation apps, even AMD could only trigger the error in their lab setting. So really you shouldn't worry at all about leaving the 'fix' disabled. But read more about that to put your mind at ease first because I understand your point about choosing between stability and performance :) 

But on the topic of reading... didn't you read any of the reviews on the processor before you purchased it? When it was launched back in December, it was found to be barely any better for OCing than the locked Phenoms (which are pathetic at OCing of course).
Related resources
March 16, 2008 2:43:22 AM

Yes I read reviews...but remember nothing is as real as your own experiences. Like I stated before I am an AMD fanboy. I knew that it might not overclock alot but I thought alot ment more than 25%. There are reviews out there that have it at 2.5. While I couldn't, so sometimes you might acheive different results than on reviews:)  Thats why I bought it. Weather or not the Virtualization error is there with home user or at the AMD labs...do u still want to know that ur CPU isn't 100%? for 300$??? nope.

And if you read my post again I did say I did read reviews, but I find some of the reviews out there are very limited. I knew I wasn't get much...but I didn't think that my not getting much was really NOTHING.

The fix needs to be disabled everytime you launch windows. which is a pain on its own.

This CPU is actually worse than the 6400 Black edition, which was also a bad OCer.
March 16, 2008 3:35:09 AM

Hey L1qu1d, I read your post and I cannot find any mention of your reading any reviews. I am currently running a X2 5000 BE and I love how easy it is to overclock. I will not buy Intel, that is my own personal problem. I have a friend who wanted to build his own system and I recommended a Q6600 and that is the CPU he purchased. Its your money spend it as you see fit, the Phenom may be a better purchase when the B3 stepping arrives. Just had to add my own $.02.
March 16, 2008 3:45:36 AM

What do u think I meant when I wrote and if you check ont he internet of other tests...and when i was talkin about the TBL patch. I didn't say the word REVIEW...anyways. It will be when the b3 arrives? Who wants to wait for that? I mean Amd and Ati are telling us to wait. When AMD arrives with something new...Intel will just outshine it. I mean I had the 5000 before this cpu...yes its an easy overclocker but I mean thats 1 out of how many cpus did amd release from that Athlon X2;s??? Yes they are cheap but its because their performance is low.

I'm not arguing to buy intel. I'm just saying that Amd better step up. They are releasing Tri- cores...again aiming at mainstream.

And what I love about the current CPU is that I didn't even touch the voltage when I got the Cpu to 3 ghz while on the BE I had to play with the FSB and the multiplier. I managed to acheive 3.4 at 1.450 or so Voltage.

the phenom will not be a better purchase ever. It is flawed. Once a cpu is flawed u can't say its a good purchase unless the price is slashed heavily.
What amd did was the microsoft mistake. Releasing an incomplete product (Even though it wasn't)
I would've stayed with Phenom if they offered a trade in for the 9650 but they are starting to be as money hungry as Microsoft.

Like I said your own personal problems aside AMD is just not at standard. I have AMD stickers on a Intel computer LOL. So you kno I'm an AMD fanboy.

I hope they come back. but it might be too late.


Remember what AMD use to be...CHEAP but GOOD. Remember the XPs???? (aka the new semprons)

They were amazing. They beat the intels and were half the price in some cases. Now they are half the price at more than half the performance.
March 16, 2008 12:28:54 PM

2500+ Barton reporting for duty... err retirement. :D 

I'm sorry you had to blow hundreds of dollars to find this out. I read forums & overclocking threads. I knew what Phenom could & couldn't do. Buying the black is crapshoot. The best overclocker would be early reportedly unlocked regular 9500+ which is probably sold out. Still 300mhz o/c is elementary. 1-2Ghz o/c then I'm in. The B3 has been previewed. It ain't looking good.

The only chance of survival for Phenom would be that AMD markets it as a budget stock quad. I think HP are putting Phenoms in their PCs. If AMD can cut a deal with the gov or edu, they may not take too much of a loss on this. Unfortunately, even the AMD fans are buying the TBL hype. It's sad.

The best bang AMD overclocker for now is 5000+ Black.
March 16, 2008 12:58:08 PM

agreed. For the record lol I didn't blow the money. I ended up doing a straight trade for the Q6600...So i came it happy since it was actually 20$ more exp:) :p 

Amd needs to come back so Intel doesn't mess with us and keep the market.

AMD 5000+ is bomb. Like I said 3.4 Ghz overclock. Hard to overclock because I had to mess with chipset voltages and ram plus cpu. but it got the job done.

The Q6600 was easier to overclock at stock Voltage:) 
March 16, 2008 1:22:08 PM

They'll still sell them no mater what. The average consumer just sees "quad core". The overall market segment that relates to this forum is vastly overshadowed by the general consumers that just buy a computer to surf the net and play a few web games. Those kind of users would never know the difference between the a quad core Intel or AMD.
March 16, 2008 1:24:31 PM

too bad they don't look at these forums. :D  But word gets out Intel is better than even the average (lets call them Easily Influenced Technology Illiterate) will go on board just because its number 1. Most consumers think whats more exp is better. That being said that doesn't mean they will buy it. Although you do have a point. They see quad core for soo low they might not care.

I hope theyc ome back!
March 16, 2008 1:53:31 PM

L1qu1d said:
agreed. For the record lol I didn't blow the money. I ended up doing a straight trade for the Q6600...So i came it happy since it was actually 20$ more exp:) :p 

Amd needs to come back so Intel doesn't mess with us and keep the market.

AMD 5000+ is bomb. Like I said 3.4 Ghz overclock. Hard to overclock because I had to mess with chipset voltages and ram plus cpu. but it got the job done.

The Q6600 was easier to overclock at stock Voltage:) 
I didnt own a 500be, but the x2-5600(overclocked to 3.2ghz) i had was awesome, i think i actually prefer it over the q6600 for games.
March 16, 2008 2:03:10 PM

lol trust me the 6600 has better benches plus you have a quad core :)  I mean my 3Dmark score was better on the q6600 at 3.0 GHz than the 5000 BE was at 3.4. Although that doesn't mean the BE was bad. As for your 5600 I don't know how the benchmarks came out so I can't comment:D 
March 16, 2008 2:20:33 PM

I think 3D Mark can do quad thread (so a quad core should crush a dual core even if the dual were faster per core), though I definitely think you made the right choice going with a Q6600 over a Phenom. For me, though, I'll just keep using my FX-60 until something really exciting come out (or my 60 doesn't cut it anymore). Enjoy your Quad!
March 16, 2008 2:21:58 PM

L1qu1d said:
lol trust me the 6600 has better benches plus you have a quad core :)  I mean my 3Dmark score was better on the q6600 at 3.0 GHz than the 5000 BE was at 3.4. Although that doesn't mean the BE was bad. As for your 5600 I don't know how the benchmarks came out so I can't comment:D 

I know what you mean, 4 is better than 2, now that i have it at 2.8ghz it's a little better in games, but nowadays the only way you can go wrong is picking a single core, everything from the lowly pentium 2100 and x2- 3600 to the qx9600 and x2-6400BE are great for games provided you have a decent gpu. Im about to build a coworker a cheap gaming system, i think im gonna make it 780g based and go with a x2-5000be or 8000 series tri-core, so he can put more money toward memory and gpu.
March 16, 2008 2:22:42 PM

Thank you sir lol. I hate to switch to Intel but its a must....I use to be an ATI fan too...but things change with The times:p 
March 16, 2008 2:35:42 PM

L1qu1d said:
Thank you sir lol. I hate to switch to Intel but its a must....I use to be an ATI fan too...but things change with The times:p 

Welcome to the Dark Side, bwahahahahah :lol: 
March 16, 2008 2:37:21 PM

Hahah thats exactly what I said to myself LOL!
March 16, 2008 3:06:13 PM

L1qu1d said:
Hahah thats exactly what I said to myself LOL!
Ditto, i hadnt had a intel, since i had a old dual socket pentium pro
March 16, 2008 3:35:33 PM

@L1qu1d: I'm sorry to burst your bubble but even your Q6600 has errata, as can be read in ftp://download.intel.com/design/processor/specupdt/3155...
The difference is that while Intel keeps quiet about errata and fix them in new revisions(usually no software solution for old revisions) AMD was stupid enough to mention the Phenom errata publicly and made a software solution to get around it untill he fixed revision.


About the TBL errata it has only been found two times, once by an external tester and once by AMD themselves, which makes me wonder if those using the fix have failed to read when it should be used.(Only with high use of virtualisation)
March 16, 2008 3:43:50 PM

they didn't MENTION they were discovered by the media...thats not admitting it.

So the TBL patch makes up for everything then I guess??

I'll say it again. INtel atleast has the performance to back it up...what amd have???
An already slow CPU being dragged down even more by the TBL patch, and is also a horrible overclocker and just 20$ cheaper than the Q6600.

And again i ask every1 do u want a CPU that isn't running 100%???? even though chances are low?

Alteast Q6600 fixed the problem if you say it had an errata.

Just face the facts....I liked AMD too...but look at the benchmarks...there is no disccussion:) 
March 16, 2008 4:13:38 PM

Again I have to say for clarity's sake: there is ZERO chance of anyone coming across the errata bug unless they are doing extreme virtualisiation in a controlled enviroment where the goal is to trigger the error.

I would not touch a Phenom with a 10 foot pole, but the errata error is a complete non-factor in that; slow stock speeds and terrible over clocking are all that 99.9999999% of users need to consider. EDIT: Sorry and price of course:) 

Processors are released all the time with errata in them (Including some of Intel's 45nm) but it was a rare case that the Phenom's errata made it into the spotlight because these errors are basically always only triggerable in lab-like settings under extreme testing conditions.
March 16, 2008 4:17:47 PM

So then the TBL patch was the biggest mistake??? lol....I still think they had their reasons.

I have nothing against athlon. I just want my cpu 2 be clean. LIke my old 5000 BE:) 
March 16, 2008 5:13:45 PM

jevon said:
Again I have to say for clarity's sake: there is ZERO chance of anyone coming across the errata bug unless they are doing extreme virtualisiation in a controlled enviroment where the goal is to trigger the error.

that is not exactly true. http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=326...
Very small chance, not zero chance. Every CPU has errata, but most of them can be get around via BIOS without a performance hit unlike this TLB thing.
I wouldn't buy these chips for anything where performance matters. But then again, if performance isn't main priority, why bother with 4 cores. Save money with low end X2 :whistle: 
March 16, 2008 6:03:46 PM

I refuse to buy such a failed technology.

I'm personally quite happy with my qx9650. ;) 

The fanboys can scream "native quad core" and "FSB is outdated" all they want, but I think that the end result is what matters most.
March 16, 2008 9:07:23 PM

lol well its failed for now we'll have to wait for the new phenoms:) 
March 16, 2008 9:55:21 PM

resonance451 said:
I refuse to buy such a failed technology.

I'm personally quite happy with my qx9650. ;) 

The fanboys can scream "native quad core" and "FSB is outdated" all they want, but I think that the end result is what matters most.


Correct.

Trying a "Phenom" at this point is like trying S&M only knowing ahead of time that being whipped with a rubber chicken by a fat kindergarten teacher is not going to be a good thing.

Why are we still revisiting the phenom over and over again? I don't get it.
March 16, 2008 10:00:26 PM

Relax man lol its just a discussion. I just wanted to say my part about the Phenom.:)  I don't think its a crime right? lol

yes it did fail. People know that. AMDfans kno that (like me)

I'm just trying to enforce the fact that its not all that good.:) 

March 17, 2008 10:56:39 AM

Jevon, chiadog & I are in the same boat: understood the TLB, but wouldn't pick up a Phenom for performance or even overclocking.

I think AMD should stop trying to make Phenom an overclocker. *cough* black edition *cough*. Just fix the bug which they did, and ship out the new chips, then slash the prices.
March 23, 2008 10:14:39 AM

imagine that I wanted to try it out for myself...i'm and AMD fanboy. I bought it whether it Oced or not.

So lay off living up to your username:) 
March 23, 2008 11:28:43 AM

L1qu1d said:
Well about 2 days ago, I bought a Athlon Phenom 9600 Black Edition (2.3 ghz). I upgraded from the Athlon 5000+ Black Edition @ 2.6 ghz (overclocked to 3.4). I was very happy with the Athlon 5000. It was a good overclocker, while still maintaining a good temperature.

I got really excited about getting the Phenom 9600 black Edition, I was thinking this must be insane overclocker. Ummmm... Access Denied.

Well just wanted to warn some people. :D 


Someone should have warned you to wait a month. I can't see why anyone would want a B2 Phenom now. Even if they don't expect to see the TLB bug, they should at least wait till the last B2's drop in price once the B3's are out. I guess some people just can't wait?

The Phenom B3 stepping 9850 Black Edition will be out (2.5 gigahertz) in April. Whether it overclocks or not remains to be seen. Personally, I don't think Phenom will overclock well until Deneb, expected to arrive at 3.0 gigahertz stock late third quarter this year. 45nm SOI with more pipelines should make a difference with AMD's quad cores.

L1qu1d said:

I'm not arguing to buy intel. I'm just saying that Amd better step up. They are releasing Tri- cores...again aiming at mainstream.

And what I love about the current CPU is that I didn't even touch the voltage when I got the Cpu to 3 ghz while on the BE I had to play with the FSB and the multiplier. I managed to acheive 3.4 at 1.450 or so Voltage.

the phenom will not be a better purchase ever. .

Remember what AMD use to be...CHEAP but GOOD. Remember the XPs???? (aka the new semprons)


AMD is stepping up in the only ways they can:

1. aim at the OEM market that was denied them during the years Intel had crappy processors (as in "Dude you got a Dell" with a Prescott space heater).

2. release an errata free 65nm Phenom that gains about 7% over bios fix hampered B2's.

3. work towards Swift and the much more lucrative notebook market in 2009, while also bringing out 45nm Deneb Phenom's that should perform much better than B3, which performs better than B2, which performs better than X2 at equivalent stock.

AMD has always been the second company. They were cheap and good for most of the company's life. They were excellent and not so cheap for a couple of years but that didn't help them because of Intel's anticompetitive practices.

AMD has the best chipsets out bar none. The 780G is great. I'll be using one with that B3 Phenom I'm waiting on until AM3 with Deneb. Then, I might just go 880TV (or whatever their next CrossfireX compatible chipset's called) once AM3 motherboards are out.
March 23, 2008 11:34:25 AM

Lets hope so Amd really screwed up with the phenoms. They are still having trouble pushin the phenoms past 2.5 (apparently they can't do it)

Either way. i wasn't impatient really. i just didn't beleive the news about the 9600. But no harm done. took it back and got the Q6600. Never been happier.

well except with my 5000+ BE:) 
March 23, 2008 4:37:10 PM

L1qu1d said:
imagine that I wanted to try it out for myself...i'm and AMD fanboy. I bought it whether it Oced or not.


Imagine me completely doubting your veracity. Imagine me reading about your new Q6600 system in a post created on the same day as this post. Imagine me reading your OP on this topic and immediately realizing that somebody made a troll post. (and as you mention in your subject: FAIL)

I give your troll attempt a 3 out of 10. I took away points for a few reasons.

Let's start:

1. Using a B2 when B3's will be available in a few weeks.
2. Pretending to think it would overclock well when reviews show it not to.
3. Pretending to be an AMD fanboy.
4. Pretending you had problems with the TLB. (Can you post proof you had problems with the TLB? No?)
5. Calling the problem the TBL problem. Guess you didn't do enough homework before trolling?
6. Pretending you built a Phenom system a day or two before you built a Q6600 system. That's credible. NOT.

And of course a few of the above kind of mesh together. For example an AMD fanboy would not have built a Phenom system and kept it for only 2 days. (Actually can you post ANY screenshot showing any kind of credible proof you actually had Phenom? Any proof you had such a machine in your house? I would be completely in shock if you could.)

ALSO: much of the wording on your original post makes it obvious that you were trolling and that your build was most likely "hypothetical" and not something that actually happened in reality. It was a "mindgame". (i.e., "Troll".)

March 23, 2008 5:22:03 PM

want to see my receipts muther ****?? wanna see my other motherboard? I am an amd fanboy. Everything I have was amd related stickers background.

On my recipt it shows the exchange for the Q6600, PROOF THAT THE TBL PATCH **** up my benchmarks
So don't start talking **** with out having some common sense. I have All the **** receipts. I traded it in on the same day I found out the results for myself. I didn't want to believe reviews I like seeing for myself.

Proof again would be my AMD 5000+ BE edition. and the 3800 X2 I had before and THE XPs I had when doom 3 was relased. Plus the **** Ati 9800 XT.

I'm not pretending to do ****.

I mention fail because YES it did. With the B3 stepping I see nothing either way. LOOK UP THG.

So how bout you argue at different Forums and not here. You have no CASE

Phenom proccessor bundled with GROW 2 and Call of Juarez.

TBL PATCH DID **** for performance other than bring it down by 50% for me.

SO unless you have the damn CPU Shut your mouth cuz your just a **** talkin dick jerker that likes to pick fights behind a screen and not in real life.

March 23, 2008 5:37:07 PM

Here you go you little scrub. Hope you enjoy eating your lies have a nice day!:D 

oh yeah I have pix of my other cpus 2 just incase you wanna be b i t c h some more
March 23, 2008 6:31:15 PM

nice one dude!!!!!!!
March 23, 2008 6:33:59 PM

Thank You sir:D 
March 23, 2008 7:36:14 PM

I didn't see any reason to question the OP's story. It seemed like he was passing along valuable information for the benefit of the forum members. Sure, most of us know the Phenom's don't OC worth a crap, but what if someone buys into the "Black Edition" marketing hype... well, should that happen... the OP has given a pretty clear picture of what to expect... NOT A LOT.
March 23, 2008 8:14:44 PM

L1qu1d said:
Here you go you little scrub. Hope you enjoy eating your lies have a nice day!:D 
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z296/L1qu1d2007/die.jpg
oh yeah I have pix of my other cpus 2 just incase you wanna be b i t c h some more

:lol:  :lol:  PWNED :ouch:  :pfff: 

Correction: You used to be an AMD fanboi. Welcome to the Evil Empire. :lol: 
March 23, 2008 8:51:05 PM

LOL!
March 23, 2008 8:52:05 PM

LOL! :D 
March 23, 2008 10:05:53 PM

L1qu1d said:
want to see my receipts muther ****?? wanna see my other motherboard? I am an amd fanboy. Everything I have was amd related stickers background.

On my recipt it shows the exchange for the Q6600, PROOF THAT THE TBL PATCH **** up my benchmarks
So don't start talking **** with out having some common sense. I have All the **** receipts. I traded it in on the same day I found out the results for myself. I didn't want to believe reviews I like seeing for myself.

Proof again would be my AMD 5000+ BE edition. and the 3800 X2 I had before and THE XPs I had when doom 3 was relased. Plus the **** Ati 9800 XT.

I'm not pretending to do ****.

I mention fail because YES it did. With the B3 stepping I see nothing either way. LOOK UP THG.

So how bout you argue at different Forums and not here. You have no CASE

Phenom proccessor bundled with GROW 2 and Call of Juarez.

TBL PATCH DID **** for performance other than bring it down by 50% for me.

SO unless you have the damn CPU Shut your mouth cuz your just a **** talkin dick jerker that likes to pick fights behind a screen and not in real life.


Wow... I did digress... you actually did tell the truth.

I guess it was the "attitude" in your post that made it very easy to believe that you were not telling the truth.

ALSO FYI: There is no such thing as a "TBL patch." There IS a TLB patch.


rodney_ws said:
I didn't see any reason to question the OP's story. It seemed like he was passing along valuable information for the benefit of the forum members.


Based on the bias attitue of the OP I personally did question the validity of the post.
March 23, 2008 10:25:54 PM

A typo could've been said in a different way. Instead of lookin like a jerk. I misspelled it, its the internet, I'm not a professional writer.

Your just trying to pick a fight.

first you were arguing the Truth, then your were arguing that I didn't benchmark it. now your going to comment me on a typo.

I posted this to show my opinions and to help w.e people I can. I'm doing it for free, which other people would charge you for opinions. I doubt you would've looked like such a Jack off if you learn some respect.

Like I said, You have nothing to go on, so you target my Typo...Let it go I don't see any1 else arguing it, and alot of the people new what I meant.

TLB TLB TLB TLB TLB....there you go, that makes up for all my typos.
March 24, 2008 12:56:13 AM

L1qu1d said:
A typo could've been said in a different way. Instead of lookin like a jerk. I misspelled it, its the internet, I'm not a professional writer.

Your just trying to pick a fight.

first you were arguing the Truth, then your were arguing that I didn't benchmark it. now your going to comment me on a typo.

I posted this to show my opinions and to help w.e people I can. I'm doing it for free, which other people would charge you for opinions. I doubt you would've looked like such a Jack off if you learn some respect.

Like I said, You have nothing to go on, so you target my Typo...Let it go I don't see any1 else arguing it, and alot of the people new what I meant.

TLB TLB TLB TLB TLB....there you go, that makes up for all my typos.



I see you still have an attitude. You have shown yourself to be very argumentative and defensive. It is obvious that you are looking for an argument. (Especially since you keep asking for one. And have done so in several posts.)

I hope you find someone that wishes to argue with you since that is what you seek. However, that won't be me.

March 24, 2008 1:00:38 AM

LOL wat a hypocrite k dude w.e you say. I'm the 1 with an atititude sure w.e I wasted enough of my time on you lol
March 24, 2008 1:28:54 AM

L1qu1d said:
LOL wat a hypocrite k dude w.e you say. I'm the 1 with an atititude sure w.e I wasted enough of my time on you lol


Wow you must be pretty rich to afford all that computer hardware. First the BE 5000+ then the Phenom and then a Q6600 system and the 9800 GX2. Looks like all top of the line for you.
March 24, 2008 1:35:33 AM

not really I sold the phenom. Plus it took me a long time save up for the mobo and the cpu. I sold my 9600 Gts to even have a shot at the 9800 GX2 .... it was the last one....it always makes me feel happy when I get the last 1 LOL

I think i'm a little crazy:D 
March 24, 2008 1:41:49 AM

Lets just move on Please. This is overkill. Thanks :hello: 
March 24, 2008 1:51:47 AM

L1qu1d said:
not really I sold the phenom. Plus it took me a long time save up for the mobo and the cpu. I sold my 9600 Gts to even have a shot at the 9800 GX2 .... it was the last one....it always makes me feel happy when I get the last 1 LOL

I think i'm a little crazy:D 


So did you have to return all those free games that you got with the processor?


March 24, 2008 2:07:16 AM

unfortunately yes. They wouldn't accept a refund with out them. GRAW 2 was okay. CAll of Juarez was just boring...didn't like it one bit. I doubt multiplayer could save that game.
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