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Fair Play Roolz

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December 25, 2004 5:46:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

It seems that the pool of decent pub servers has dwindled over the
past year.

I realize it's to be expected with any game as it ages. But the
handful of decent pubs that currently exist all exhibit something that
I've scratched my head at from the inception of online gaming.

Unnecessary rules.

Nebulous rules that seemed to have coalesced into "accepted" guides
for conduct in any online game. Think back... ever read a global chat
that went something like "No Quad!"

I was on a server the other day, the Mofo clan's "Tittybar" server. (A
clever little name, that I'm sure cost the clan itself many sleepless
nights before presenting itself via a topless muse.) And they have a
"No O-sniping, not even the flag carrier" rule posted at map-start.

That got me thinking... No offensive sniping. Isn't the very act of
sniping, in and of itself, an offensive act?

And, so what if an enemy crests a hill and starts tapping people?
Isn't that why the game allows a light-armored combatant the option of
carrying a laser rifle past the midway point of the map? And it's not
as if it's hard to pinpoint where the bugger is and either flanking
him with a shocklance or returning laser fire.

In Tribes, it was more people sniping out of bounds that got the
general populations' collective panties in a bunch. But in T2, it's
evidently the very act of sniping itself that is vilified.

Wouldn't it have been hilarious if the Russians defending Stalingrad
hadn't been allowed to O-Snipe? "Commrades, everybody knows, sniping
is for pussies. Now rush headlong into that machine gunners nest, for
mother Russia!"

Here's my hypothesis:
There are a certain number of "Quake-minded" players that basically
want everything to be like Quake deathmatch. They're the ones with the
high kill-count. So they concoct all these various rules to keep the
game paced like deathmatch.

Effective tactics that break them out of their Quake mindset must be
quelled at all costs.

Gen raping before some arbitrary number of players? Can't have that!
That means THEY might have to grab a repair pack and do a little
housecleaning.

Mortar spamming an entrance? Can't have it. There are no mortars in
deathmatch.

O-Sniping? A coordinated sniper team can leave a flagstand begging to
be raided. But teamwork is not like deathmatch. Best make it illegal.

--
--==< S m e g h e a d >==--
Mostly Harmless

More about : fair play roolz

Anonymous
December 26, 2004 3:22:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:37 -0600, "Smeghead" <tribesfan@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Nebulous rules that seemed to have coalesced into "accepted" guides
>for conduct in any online game. Think back... ever read a global chat
>that went something like "No Quad!"
>
>"No O-sniping, not even the flag carrier" rule posted at map-start.
>
>Effective tactics that break them out of their Quake mindset must be
>quelled at all costs.
>
>Gen raping before some arbitrary number of players? Can't have that!
>That means THEY might have to grab a repair pack and do a little
>housecleaning.
>
>Mortar spamming an entrance? Can't have it. There are no mortars in
>deathmatch.

Yes, some people claiming to be "vets" whine a lot and decree what is
"not allowed" even though the game was designed for it. I've seen this
happen in other games (Tanarus in particular) from players who are too
lazy or concerned with their personal high scores to learn how to
counter certain tactics, as countering the tactics would limit their
opportunity for kills.

In T2, when snipers got to be a problem at my base, I really enjoyed
sneaking up on them and putting them out of my team's misery. It's
much more satisfying than complaining.

I remember on the first Tribes people used to complain about
scout-flagging. If anyone did it, they would get yelled at. Some
server admins would boot you.

So one time I asked one of the whiners, "Are you a good player?"

He said he was.

Then I told him, "Good players know how to defeat scout-flagging."

I guess he wasn't good enough to maintain a flag defense.

But I did appreciate it in T2 when defensive tactics were awarded
points. There were games where I spent the whole time defending the
flag and I got the high score for the match.
December 26, 2004 3:22:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 00:22:21 GMT, pfw <pfw@pobox.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:37 -0600, "Smeghead" <tribesfan@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Nebulous rules that seemed to have coalesced into "accepted" guides
>>for conduct in any online game. Think back... ever read a global chat
>>that went something like "No Quad!"
>>
>>"No O-sniping, not even the flag carrier" rule posted at map-start.
>>
>>Effective tactics that break them out of their Quake mindset must be
>>quelled at all costs.
>>
>>Gen raping before some arbitrary number of players? Can't have that!
>>That means THEY might have to grab a repair pack and do a little
>>housecleaning.
>>
>>Mortar spamming an entrance? Can't have it. There are no mortars in
>>deathmatch.
>
>Yes, some people claiming to be "vets" whine a lot and decree what is
>"not allowed" even though the game was designed for it. I've seen this
>happen in other games (Tanarus in particular) from players who are too
>lazy or concerned with their personal high scores to learn how to
>counter certain tactics, as countering the tactics would limit their
>opportunity for kills.

Exactly. God forbid the gens go down and they have to run out
mid-field in default spawn gear to duel!

Sometimes I wonder if they're too busy keying in "vrg" to actually
drop their energy pack and grab the repair pack.

>In T2, when snipers got to be a problem at my base, I really enjoyed
>sneaking up on them and putting them out of my team's misery. It's
>much more satisfying than complaining.

Yeah, me too! I have an anti-sniper sniper load out. Laser riffle,
fuser, and shocklace. The beautiful thing about a sniper is they're
usually too focused on acquiring a target to notice a flanking lancer.

>I remember on the first Tribes people used to complain about
>scout-flagging. If anyone did it, they would get yelled at. Some
>server admins would boot you.
>
>So one time I asked one of the whiners, "Are you a good player?"
>
>He said he was.
>
>Then I told him, "Good players know how to defeat scout-flagging."

Bravo! Excellent reply. I used to do that all the time on
Rollercoaster. Then all of a sudden, it became "lame" to do it.

In retrospect, what it really became was an effective method that
WORKED! But it only worked, as you've pointed out, when the other
team's D was weak or non-existant.

>I guess he wasn't good enough to maintain a flag defense.

Obviously not. :)  Flag defense takes away from the deathmatch
mentality going on mid-fields.

>But I did appreciate it in T2 when defensive tactics were awarded
>points. There were games where I spent the whole time defending the
>flag and I got the high score for the match.

Yeah! I agree with that. It was most welcomed to start getting points
for gen D and even assists to a cap, and returns. Tribes 2 has a very
nice reward system in place.

I used to play Heavy Defense for the Atomic Punks clan in Tribes. And
there would be scrims where I wouldn't get but a small handful of
kills, but my generators wouldn't have been touched for a whole map.
It's that kind of team sucess that's really gratifying.

I remember playing CTF in Quake 2 and you'd have some snart bragging
about his kill count at map-cycle. "Yeah, but your team lost, dork."



--
--==< S m e g h e a d >==--
Mostly Harmless
Related resources
Anonymous
December 26, 2004 4:17:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

One day, while skipping through the forest, I heard the voice of "Smeghead"
<tribesfan@hotmail.com> coming from a tree, and thought, "Man, this is f*ed
up," but carried on the following conversation anyway:

> For instance, the above-mentioned server with the no O-snipe rule...
> there's also an anti-turtle rule. But a lot of the time a quick sniper
> can end a flag stand off quite handily.
>

the two rules are most definately not in conflict with each other. if
osniping was allowed, carriers would want to turtle. if its not, its easier
for them to hold it outside, which keeps up the pace of the game. the whole
point of no osniping and no turtling is to make standoffs reasonably fun for
both sides, rather than either camping all map or getting picked off from
midfield by one of the easier to use weapons.

--
Adept
Anonymous
December 26, 2004 4:48:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

DEbig3 <debig3@yahoo.com> wrote in news:Xns95CAC55E48D09omgwtf@130.133.1.4:

> which keeps up the pace of the game

And there's the whole argument: Pace. Too many ADD players who get bored
if, god forbid, the game stretch out a bit and require digging out a
turtler. Gotta keep up that heart-pounding pace or the youngsters might nod
off.
December 26, 2004 6:26:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:48:30 -0600, ScratchMonkey
<ScratchMonkey.blacklist@sewingwitch.com> wrote:

>DEbig3 <debig3@yahoo.com> wrote in news:Xns95CAC55E48D09omgwtf@130.133.1.4:
>
>> which keeps up the pace of the game
>
>And there's the whole argument: Pace. Too many ADD players who get bored
>if, god forbid, the game stretch out a bit and require digging out a
>turtler. Gotta keep up that heart-pounding pace or the youngsters might nod
>off.

Zzzzz...(snort!) Huh?! Sorry I nodded off there.

Actually, digging out a turtler is fun.

And fending off those digging a turtler out is fun.

To me, the whole damn game is fun.

Mortars. Laser Rifles. Mid-air discs. The satisfying ring after the
punch of a laser sends the flag flying from the dead carrier...

Fun.

I think it's the Quake mentality, again:

Bounding over hills and skiing down valleys = Quakefun.

Rebounding grenades around a corner to smack down turrets and shields
and kill a turtle = Too much like effort and strategy. Anti-quake.

--
--==< S m e g h e a d >==--
Mostly Harmless
Anonymous
December 26, 2004 7:00:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

"Smeghead" <tribesfan@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fpaus0pgefshjifheje3c4f6avfq3j615c@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:48:30 -0600, ScratchMonkey
> <ScratchMonkey.blacklist@sewingwitch.com> wrote:
>
> >DEbig3 <debig3@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:Xns95CAC55E48D09omgwtf@130.133.1.4:
> >
> >> which keeps up the pace of the game
> >
> >And there's the whole argument: Pace. Too many ADD players who get bored
> >if, god forbid, the game stretch out a bit and require digging out a
> >turtler. Gotta keep up that heart-pounding pace or the youngsters might
nod
> >off.
>
> Zzzzz...(snort!) Huh?! Sorry I nodded off there.
>
> Actually, digging out a turtler is fun.
>
> And fending off those digging a turtler out is fun.
>
> To me, the whole damn game is fun.
>
> Mortars. Laser Rifles. Mid-air discs. The satisfying ring after the
> punch of a laser sends the flag flying from the dead carrier...
>
> Fun.
>
> I think it's the Quake mentality, again:
>
> Bounding over hills and skiing down valleys = Quakefun.
>
> Rebounding grenades around a corner to smack down turrets and shields
> and kill a turtle = Too much like effort and strategy. Anti-quake.
>

The problem with pub turtling is it can not just slow down a game but
completely stop it. The chances of having enough team cooperation on a pub
to crack a good turtle is slim to none and most times it just brings the map
to a stop. Also, being LD, I understand the frustration from O-sniping. If
you are flag tending you are practically in a box tied to an anchor. One
sniper you can fend off or avoid; 2 or 3 and it's a joke. You are not
likely to get any help from your team, once again because it's a pub, and
eventually most LD will just stop trying. They are there for the fun of a
pub. Pubs at worst can be totally lopsided and demoralizing = not fun.
These rules are simply an attempt by the community at large to keep pubs an
entertaining event. It works for the most part.

Quixote <-- Has never played Quake
Anonymous
December 26, 2004 11:53:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

"Quixote" <quixote@-munged-writeme.com> wrote in
news:10sucvht3fgq0cc@corp.supernews.com:

> Also, being LD, I understand the frustration from O-sniping. If
> you are flag tending you are practically in a box tied to an anchor. One
> sniper you can fend off or avoid; 2 or 3 and it's a joke. You are not
> likely to get any help from your team, once again because it's a pub, and
> eventually most LD will just stop trying.

So stop being an LD and go sniper-hunting. As my team leader says, if the
hole you're in keeps getting deeper, maybe you should put down the shovel.
Anonymous
December 27, 2004 2:10:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

"Smeghead" <tribesfan@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fpaus0pgefshjifheje3c4f6avfq3j615c@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:48:30 -0600, ScratchMonkey
> <ScratchMonkey.blacklist@sewingwitch.com> wrote:
>
>>DEbig3 <debig3@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>news:Xns95CAC55E48D09omgwtf@130.133.1.4:
>>
>>> which keeps up the pace of the game
>>
>>And there's the whole argument: Pace. Too many ADD players who get bored
>>if, god forbid, the game stretch out a bit and require digging out a
>>turtler. Gotta keep up that heart-pounding pace or the youngsters might
>>nod
>>off.
>
> Zzzzz...(snort!) Huh?! Sorry I nodded off there.
>
> Actually, digging out a turtler is fun.
>
> And fending off those digging a turtler out is fun.
>
> To me, the whole damn game is fun.
>

But don't ya just hate getting run over when you're not looking?
December 27, 2004 2:10:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:10:22 +0000 (UTC), "Adrian Ng"
<spam.ng@btopenworld.com> wrote:

>
>"Smeghead" <tribesfan@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:fpaus0pgefshjifheje3c4f6avfq3j615c@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:48:30 -0600, ScratchMonkey
>> <ScratchMonkey.blacklist@sewingwitch.com> wrote:
>>
>>>DEbig3 <debig3@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>>news:Xns95CAC55E48D09omgwtf@130.133.1.4:
>>>
>>>> which keeps up the pace of the game
>>>
>>>And there's the whole argument: Pace. Too many ADD players who get bored
>>>if, god forbid, the game stretch out a bit and require digging out a
>>>turtler. Gotta keep up that heart-pounding pace or the youngsters might
>>>nod
>>>off.
>>
>> Zzzzz...(snort!) Huh?! Sorry I nodded off there.
>>
>> Actually, digging out a turtler is fun.
>>
>> And fending off those digging a turtler out is fun.
>>
>> To me, the whole damn game is fun.
>>
>
>But don't ya just hate getting run over when you're not looking?
>

Actually, that's fun too. ;P

--
--==< S m e g h e a d >==--
Mostly Harmless
Anonymous
December 27, 2004 2:26:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

"ScratchMonkey" <ScratchMonkey.blacklist@sewingwitch.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95CBC041F6055scratchmonkey@216.196.97.136...
> "Quixote" <quixote@-munged-writeme.com> wrote in
> news:10sucvht3fgq0cc@corp.supernews.com:
>
> > Also, being LD, I understand the frustration from O-sniping. If
> > you are flag tending you are practically in a box tied to an anchor.
One
> > sniper you can fend off or avoid; 2 or 3 and it's a joke. You are not
> > likely to get any help from your team, once again because it's a pub,
and
> > eventually most LD will just stop trying.
>
> So stop being an LD and go sniper-hunting. As my team leader says, if the
> hole you're in keeps getting deeper, maybe you should put down the shovel.

And leave the flag to a bunch of noobs???? How dare you! :^) I can't tell
you how many times I have gone after the sniper only to see the flag leave,
because invariably as I snipe the incoming cappers numerous times in a row
they always come back O-sniping eventually....

Quixote
December 27, 2004 3:00:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:26:48 -0600, "Quixote"
<quixote@-munged-writeme.com> wrote:

>
>"ScratchMonkey" <ScratchMonkey.blacklist@sewingwitch.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns95CBC041F6055scratchmonkey@216.196.97.136...
>> "Quixote" <quixote@-munged-writeme.com> wrote in
>> news:10sucvht3fgq0cc@corp.supernews.com:
>>
>> > Also, being LD, I understand the frustration from O-sniping. If
>> > you are flag tending you are practically in a box tied to an anchor.
>One
>> > sniper you can fend off or avoid; 2 or 3 and it's a joke. You are not
>> > likely to get any help from your team, once again because it's a pub,
>and
>> > eventually most LD will just stop trying.
>>
>> So stop being an LD and go sniper-hunting. As my team leader says, if the
>> hole you're in keeps getting deeper, maybe you should put down the shovel.
>
>And leave the flag to a bunch of noobs???? How dare you! :^) I can't tell
>you how many times I have gone after the sniper only to see the flag leave,
>because invariably as I snipe the incoming cappers numerous times in a row
>they always come back O-sniping eventually....

Ever feel like you're the ONLY one interested in flag D? Keeping the
gens up? Farming the necessary turrets?

Then, there's those glorious times when random people click in a pub
and someone actually assists you in D or protecting assets.

Or, in your scenario, a teammate goes and kills a heavy dropping
mortars or a pesky o-sniper when you really need him to.

Doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's like gems amongst shite.

--
--==< S m e g h e a d >==--
Mostly Harmless
Anonymous
January 3, 2005 4:08:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.starsiege.tribes (More info?)

>>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:37 -0600, "Smeghead"
>>> <tribesfan@hotmail.com> said:

tribesfan> It seems that the pool of decent pub servers has dwindled
tribesfan> over the past year. [ ... ]

It is more like that some people have voluntarily switched to TV, and
some have been discouraged by the updater saying that there is a
critical update that cannot be donwloaded...

There are still quite a few decent public servers out there, but they
are becoming empty. It is very sad -- T2 even with its defect is the
pinnacle of teamplay fun so far, and the technology is still to some
extent fairly impressive.
!