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manufacture brand DOES matter!!

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a b U Graphics card
May 10, 2008 12:54:01 PM

I had posted another thread on the problem I was having with the video cards I had selected but got no responses. I have fixed the issue and I wanted to share what the problem was.

I have never been so clear as to what brand to select than now.

I have the following components on my media center that I was upgrading:

Gigabyte GA 945GCM-S2C motherboard
PD 3.2 Presler cpu
2G Patriot 667mhz memory
Ultra 500 watt psu
Media Center 2005 OS
Thermaltake Lanbox Lite Case

I had an older motherboard that was an AGP setup and wanted to change over to PCI express for a faster card. I started out with a PNY 9600GT and was disappointed from the 3dmark06 scores I was getting then I took it back and picked up a Visiontek 3870 and couldnt get 3dmark to even start and I was getting horizontal lines when I played movies. Then I took back that card and picked up the one I started to get in the first place, the EVGA 9600GT.

Here are the 3dmark06 scores with the same components other than the video card:

PNY9600GT - 4750
Visiontek 3870 - would not load 3dmark06
EVGA 9600GT - 6715

Brand selection is obviously very important. I would have to speculate that other brands would get different results as well. I was limited to what brands to select from at Microcenter due to all of their ATI cards are Visiontek. DONT BUY THESE. At least not the 3870. I may have gotten a bad apple out of the bunch but I didnt want to drive back and return video cards for the next week to find out.

This is the final kicker for me. The PNY and EVGA had the EXACT same specs. I had the sales rep to look up both of the cards and compare when I first purchased the PNY. The PNY was 20.00 cheaper but obviously not worth it compared to the EVGA.

My old AGP setup with an ATI brand X850XT scored 2000 with the same cpu and memory.

My CPU scores were differential between the two cards:

PNY - 987
EVGA - 1621

This proves that not only does the cpu let the video card shine as I think most of us believed in but the video card also lets the cpu shine. The proof is the scoring using the same cpu.

I purchased an E2180 and will later test the EVGA 9600GT and see if that improves the score to any considerable degree.

I may need some assistance getting it to OC over 2.4ghz on this motherboard. So if any of you overclocking gurus want to get involved the give me a pm or reply here and we will set a time.

I thought this was a very useful bit of information and wanted to share what I learned with this...
a b U Graphics card
May 10, 2008 1:06:40 PM

I am sorry to burst your bubble, and try to put this as graciously as possible.

It is quite apparent that hardware upgrades are not your area of expertise.
a b U Graphics card
May 10, 2008 1:16:09 PM

Quote:
trying to be polite as well, personally i think he should be flamed to hell for thinking he alone can refute years of independent testing by hardware sites and there respective forum members.

I am refraining due to me being far too harsh of late.

;)  Yeah, you are just dying to get that Deadliest Catch video game, right?
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a b U Graphics card
May 10, 2008 1:43:32 PM

Well brand dose matter to a certain extent, but mainly in quality and not scores*, after all PNY and EVGA dose use the same GPU.

*It's also worth noting that if the EVGA was factory OCed it could result in the higher score. Different RAM speeds/size could have also effected the score, along with different drivers and/or settings.
May 10, 2008 1:45:02 PM

While it is possible the card had some sort of doa issue, odds are it wasn't simply a brand issue, perhaps poor quality control.

I am not sure if you know this, but the card are universal, nvidia has a great plan in place and that is, sell the chips and design and third parties build them market them and handle any issues.

I know I had a similiar issue with xfx and the 7900gt when those chips were having issues. I bought an evga card and had no more issues. But that is most like only due to a different overclock amount, quality of ram or something else, not the manufactuere or chipset itself.

Just my two cents.

Did you use most recent drivers from the website? Did you make sure everything was identical?
a b U Graphics card
May 10, 2008 2:05:43 PM

Ok guys. Take it easy.

I simply took out one card and installed another and I did get the latest drivers for all of the cards from ati and nvidia.

Idential hardware environment. Nothing changed but the video cards and the drivers. Both video cards were stock, identical speeds with same memory size. Identical spec cards.

What else can I say?

These are the results that I got plainly as listed.

As I said about the ATI card if you read it carefully, I explained that maybe I got a bad apple. I have a hard time thinking all Visiontek or all ATI 3870's are bad.

This is not a biased posting and you cant say this is from a fanboy of either brand. I didnt lean one way or another and I currently own both brands of cards and buy what suits my needs for the price, other than my main rig that was strickly for performance regardless of price at the time.

You cant really argue with the facts here other than maybe I got bad cards from PNY and Visiontek.

The PNY and EVGA comparrison doesnt get any plainer or closer in comparrison than this. Go buy these two cards and try it yourself. Sure there could have been something wrong with the PNY card. It would seem as if there was something wrong to benchmark so differently, thats why I took it back.

I guess maybe I got 2 bad cards out of 3. That would be the only thing that I would be able to say about that. I am no beginner at building pcs. I have been doing this for myself and others for 7 years now.
a b U Graphics card
May 10, 2008 2:09:10 PM

Also, how much expertise does it take to install a video card, install the latest drivers and run a benchmark program?

I uninstalled the previous drivers before installing drivers for the next card. Everything was done properly I can assure you.

Im surprised you guys are so ready to flame before asking questions and gathering facts. I guess this is what an e-linch mob looks like.. :pfff: 


Im not aiming my statements at you guys, shadow and cranbers. You responded as I would expect and its appreciated...
May 10, 2008 3:08:55 PM

He does have one thing right, manufacture brand does matter. It really stands out in PSU selection and Memory these days. As well as motherboard manufacturing as well. There are a few low budget motherboard makers out there that your really taking a gamble with, this really started showing itself when motherboard manufacturing moved from
Tiawan to the mainland. But our OP has to remember that even the best manufacturers let a bum unit slip out from time to time. But its there support that makes them stand out as best in there fields.
May 10, 2008 3:11:30 PM

englandr753 said:
Ok guys. Take it easy.

I simply took out one card and installed another and I did get the latest drivers for all of the cards from ati and nvidia.

Idential hardware environment. Nothing changed but the video cards and the drivers. Both video cards were stock, identical speeds with same memory size. Identical spec cards.
ESD when cards were being swapped, perhps?http://www.esda.org/basics/part1.cfm
Quote:
A device that is exposed to an ESD event may be partially degraded, yet continue to perform its intended function.

englandr753 said:
You cant really argue with the facts here other than maybe I got bad cards from PNY and Visiontek.
The facts are that your one card samplings will not result in a statistical model from which you can draw any reliable conclusion. The number of review sites that disagree with your findings is compelling.

As a software engineer, I sometimes gauge the professional maturity of other engineers by their willingness/tendancy to first look deeply to their own work when things go wrong before blaming someone else's code.
a b U Graphics card
May 10, 2008 3:18:47 PM

Spongebob,

I understand one sampling doesnt make the standard rule of thumb. But I am only suggesting that you can buy a card and it function but not as you expect.

What other way will you know other than comparing?
May 10, 2008 3:20:00 PM

Lol, good post. Some people blame everyone but themselves.



As for the "difference," keep in mind Nvidia makes the gpus, then sell
them to different companies listed. Those "manufacturers" don't
actually "manufacture." It's identical gpu on identical board layout
required by Nvidia. It's a matter of pasting on labels. :na: 
May 10, 2008 7:14:29 PM

Yes it does matter, but only when we are talking about OC models. In the case of an OC model EVGA is probably the worst of them all. They cheese_ick those wallmart quality cards to no end and ship tons of cards with bad memory, poor thermal paste and all around just plain crappy work.

May 10, 2008 7:40:39 PM

All I can say is that I am getting my ECS 8800gts 512 for 159. after rebate...amd 5400 and 9800 3d marks (not oc)...I got my $$ worth !
May 10, 2008 7:50:57 PM

royalcrown said:
All I can say is that I am getting my ECS 8800gts 512 for 159. after rebate...amd 5400 and 9800 3d marks (not oc)...I got my $$ worth !

Lol, that's a g92 8800gts for the price of a 9600gt. The generic 8800gts will wipe the floor with any brand name 9600gt. You gotta pay for brand name.
May 10, 2008 7:57:22 PM

You say brand name matters, and you have an Ultra PSU?

I also disagree with your findings. Those cards are flawed. Other sites...the many of them...disagree. Logic says something went wrong with your tests. It could have been you, it could have been your machine. Every manufacturer gets duds sometimes. Get another PNY and visiontek card and I bet your scores will change. Any artifacts from a card I would RMA, it's your fault for trying to test malfunctioning cards.

No one here is being mean, exactly...it's the truth.
a c 84 U Graphics card
May 10, 2008 10:16:09 PM

based on your CPU score I'd say you somehow managed to run at lower cpu clocks with the PNY card.... CPU score shouldn't change at all no matter what GPUs you use

so there's your problem :p 
May 10, 2008 10:17:27 PM

Avoid Hong Kong & China products. Taiwan is not ideal. U.S.A. built is the best
May 10, 2008 11:24:22 PM

I wasn't aware that your CPU score would increase when installing a different card.

But, yes, brand does matter. PNY is not a horrible one, but I would definately pick up an EVGA or XFX first.
May 10, 2008 11:43:49 PM

I have no comment on the different 3DMark06 score between EVGA and PNY because different brand name 9600GT may with different Pre-set frequency (I.E. some brand name may pre-overclocked for 30~40%).
However I didn't see any reason that can support different brand name display card can lead so a high side effect on CPU mark if all others are the same; I would think that your PD3.2 was overclocked 60% to 70% during the 3DMark06 test for EVGA9600GT while the CPU clock rest to normal when test with PNY9600GT. The post under different setting to claim manufacture brand DOES matter definitely can be MISLEADING to some new computer users.
May 10, 2008 11:48:00 PM

dagger said:
Lol, good post. Some people blame everyone but themselves.



As for the "difference," keep in mind Nvidia makes the gpus, then sell
them to different companies listed. Those "manufacturers" don't
actually "manufacture." It's identical gpu on identical board layout
required by Nvidia. It's a matter of pasting on labels. :na: 


Agree, haha
a b U Graphics card
May 11, 2008 1:47:22 AM


Sticky?
a b U Graphics card
May 11, 2008 2:08:12 AM

frozenlead said:
You say brand name matters, and you have an Ultra PSU?

I also disagree with your findings. Those cards are flawed. Other sites...the many of them...disagree. Logic says something went wrong with your tests. It could have been you, it could have been your machine. Every manufacturer gets duds sometimes. Get another PNY and visiontek card and I bet your scores will change. Any artifacts from a card I would RMA, it's your fault for trying to test malfunctioning cards.

No one here is being mean, exactly...it's the truth.


I have an ultra psu in my media case because I ended up trading psus with a friend of mine, this one fit my needs better and the one I had fit his. We traded. It will do for now but my plans are to get a corsair psu in the near future. Keep in mind, before I was running a much lesser card, the ATI X850XT. I didnt need a higher end psu. Now I do.

Youre right, I do believe I could get 5 of each of those cards and get different results. It just so happens that I went to the shelf 3 times to get 1 good card and it ended up being the EVGA.

Logic is the best method to measure any finding but its not 100% accurate all of the time. It is possible what happened to me happened, it did. Sure something could have went wrong. What that is would be a mistery. If something was wrong with my setup I dont think the last card I tried would work so well. I honestly think I got 2 out of 3 bad cards. Plain and simple.

Kari said:
based on your CPU score I'd say you somehow managed to run at lower cpu clocks with the PNY card.... CPU score shouldn't change at all no matter what GPUs you use

so there's your problem :p 


Do you think it could be possible something default to underclock my system based on the card I installed? That would make sense if so. I know a video card will do that if the system detects the video card isnt getting sufficient power from the psu, at least the 8800GTX's do that anyway. Interesting suggestion.

Crazy-PC said:
I have no comment on the different 3DMark06 score between EVGA and PNY because different brand name 9600GT may with different Pre-set frequency (I.E. some brand name may pre-overclocked for 30~40%).
However I didn't see any reason that can support different brand name display card can lead so a high side effect on CPU mark if all others are the same; I would think that your PD3.2 was overclocked 60% to 70% during the 3DMark06 test for EVGA9600GT while the CPU clock rest to normal when test with PNY9600GT. The post under different setting to claim manufacture brand DOES matter definitely can be MISLEADING to some new computer users.


Good analization but I didnt overclock in any of my tests. I dropped in the card and installed the driver and ran 3dmark06.

The PNY card ran great. I had no issues with it at all. I simply felt my 3d score should be higher and the EVGA proved it.

The bottom end of this whole thing is I must have gotten an underperforming PNY9600GT, a defective 3870 and a great EVGA 9600GT.



And yes, I am aware that ATI and Nvidia makes the vpus and vendors manufacture the boards and the end product. Thats what I am actually suggesting is important to watch for is the manufacturer of the end product, not the vpu. Thanks for pointing that out.

a b U Graphics card
May 11, 2008 12:17:29 PM

Well, if any of you that are mad at me for posting something that goes against the holy bible of technology can get past it and help me on the OC after I install the E2180, that would be great.

Post here or pm me and we can work on it once we work out a time frame...
a b U Graphics card
May 11, 2008 12:48:27 PM

If anyone actually reads it, its simply a thread stating what one person found thru an experience of buying 3 different cards to go in the same rig and the results from it.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Some of you act as if someone told you your god was a fake. This is a one time finding from a single individual.

What the hell is so hard to believe about that?
May 11, 2008 1:02:07 PM

Everyone's sounding their own thoughts, no one's totally wrong.
I'm sure you're not the only one who have been through "such times".
Cheers.
May 11, 2008 1:14:35 PM

I think that your processor needs at least one more core.
a b U Graphics card
May 11, 2008 1:31:51 PM

englandr753 said:
Well, if any of you that are mad at me for posting something that goes against the holy bible of technology can get past it and help me on the OC after I install the E2180, that would be great.

Post here or pm me and we can work on it once we work out a time frame...


Not agreeing that your experiences in this case has anything to do with brand quality or validity for other people's buying decision doesn't make anyone mad at you. I doubt anyone is going to hold this against you. If you have any trouble OC'in you may want to hit the OC forum, read the FAQ there, and ask for help. Most people here are eager to help and share the love of the hobby together. Good luck.

a b U Graphics card
May 12, 2008 2:38:20 AM

I think strangeststranger is my #1 fan. The love is coming back at ya... ;) 

Thanks Pauldh, and others that are reasonable. Its appreciated.

!