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Wire the house for digital and high definition A/V

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Anonymous
August 16, 2005 4:54:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Suppose you are building a new house, or at least remodeling one, and need
to put in audio/video to most rooms. The requirement is it must be all
digital and must support all high definition video. What technology would
you choose for this wireup? Some wiring paths may exceed 250 feet with no
junctions.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 4:54:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Hi,
One of the great things about the future is that we don't
always know whats coming. Life would become a bore...

With that in mind how about "wiring" your new home with empty
conduit? A friends grandfather did that back in the late 1940's.
Thats how he got cable tv to every room decades later. As I remember
he had string in the conduit to pull whatever through. A lot of the
string had gone bad over the years but he was able to use the setup.

Even if you never use it for your tv or computer you might
be able to hook it up to your auto-bartender in 2015. "Martini
please."


-Steve
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 6:05:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On 16 Aug 2005 00:54:02 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net spewed forth these words
of wisdom:

>Suppose you are building a new house, or at least remodeling one, and need
>to put in audio/video to most rooms. The requirement is it must be all
>digital and must support all high definition video. What technology would
>you choose for this wireup? Some wiring paths may exceed 250 feet with no
>junctions.

I'd recommend Quad Shield RG6 cable. I think you can buy this stuff by the foot
at Home Depot.
http://www.gemini-usa.com/gemini/products.asp?Ctg=Upsca...

--
"I'm not a cool person in real life, but I play one on the Internet"
Galley
Related resources
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 4:00:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On 15 Aug 2005 20:55:44 -0700 tunet@tampabay.rr.com wrote:

| With that in mind how about "wiring" your new home with empty
| conduit? A friends grandfather did that back in the late 1940's.
| Thats how he got cable tv to every room decades later. As I remember
| he had string in the conduit to pull whatever through. A lot of the
| string had gone bad over the years but he was able to use the setup.

That's a very good idea for future-proofing, and something I've been
planning already.

But what would you put in that conduit TODAY that meets the requirements I
posted (all digital, supports all HD formats)?


| Even if you never use it for your tv or computer you might
| be able to hook it up to your auto-bartender in 2015. "Martini
| please."

I'm sure I'd be using it for all kinds of things. But it might end up
being power and fiber.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 4:03:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 02:05:35 -0400 Galley <Galley@spam-jammer.galleytech.com> wrote:

| On 16 Aug 2005 00:54:02 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net spewed forth these words
| of wisdom:
|
|>Suppose you are building a new house, or at least remodeling one, and need
|>to put in audio/video to most rooms. The requirement is it must be all
|>digital and must support all high definition video. What technology would
|>you choose for this wireup? Some wiring paths may exceed 250 feet with no
|>junctions.
|
| I'd recommend Quad Shield RG6 cable. I think you can buy this stuff by the foot
| at Home Depot.

And what technology would you be using over this fine 75 ohm coax to send
digital audio and video to every room it goes to? SDI? HD-SDI?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 4:03:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

<phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:D dskn911eu7@news1.newsguy.com...
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 02:05:35 -0400 Galley
> <Galley@spam-jammer.galleytech.com> wrote:
>
> | On 16 Aug 2005 00:54:02 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net spewed forth
> these words
> | of wisdom:
> |
> |>Suppose you are building a new house, or at least remodeling one, and
> need
> |>to put in audio/video to most rooms. The requirement is it must be all
> |>digital and must support all high definition video. What technology
> would
> |>you choose for this wireup? Some wiring paths may exceed 250 feet with
> no
> |>junctions.
> |
> | I'd recommend Quad Shield RG6 cable. I think you can buy this stuff by
> the foot
> | at Home Depot.
>
> And what technology would you be using over this fine 75 ohm coax to send
> digital audio and video to every room it goes to? SDI? HD-SDI?
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/
> http://ham.org/ |
> | (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/
> http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing that you run today will make much sense in a few years! Today, the
only way I know of to distribute HDTV is to use component cables or HMDI, I
have no clue as to the range of either. Soon, I suspect that most AV will be
distributed wirelessly over your house WiFi network.

A few years back people were installing fiber optic cables, we all know how
useful that turned out to be, so it is hard to predict the future.

So I would suggest a central wiring closet, big conduits and whatever wiring
makes sense for the system you have today. My guess is that today, most
people have receivers or DVR's in each room with a TV, so RG6 is all that
makes sense for AV (to get signal from where the cable or the dish enters
the house to where you want it to go). Some rooms may have remote speakers,
so speaker cable would be useful, and receivers with multi-room capability
may have some form of wired remote. TiVo with HMO or TiVo to go, can
distribute AV, but I think that is done over the LAN, so CAT6 makes sense
(for now).

Another consideration is the possibility of powered speakers in every room
(and outside) with docks for iPods or satellite radio receivers - then you
would need power at the speaker locations, and away to move the signal to
the speakers.

Then of course is the big screen inflatable projection TV by the pool and
the hottub with built in plasma to consider .......
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 5:02:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Fred Bloggs wrote:

> ...
>
>So I would suggest a central wiring closet, big conduits and whatever wiring
>makes sense for the system you have today. My guess is that today, most
>people have receivers or DVR's in each room with a TV, so RG6 is all that
>makes sense for AV (to get signal from where the cable or the dish enters
>the house to where you want it to go). Some rooms may have remote speakers,
>so speaker cable would be useful, and receivers with multi-room capability
>may have some form of wired remote.
>
...

Despite the probable spread of wireless devices, I'd amen that. What
you're doing is preinstalling holes that might be a bugger to provide
later on (such as my speaker system, the alarm system we had
installed, the door chime system I enhanced, the extra cable outlets
I added, and who knows what next).

In fact, I wish, considering how often the streets get dug up downtown,
that the city fathers had had the foresight to excavate the entire
downtown peninsula down at least one storey and then build the
street system as a roof over the excavation. Then work crews could
drive into the undercity with no problems and lay new sewer pipe,
water mains, gas pipes, electrical lines, usw now and in the future.
Present and future buildings would have preexcavated understories
for basements, parking, machinery, underground malls, ...
Didn't happen, though.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 6:06:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Fred Bloggs (SPAM@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> TiVo with HMO or TiVo to go, can
> distribute AV, but I think that is done over the LAN, so CAT6 makes sense
> (for now).

This works just fine for HDTV as well. I do it every day using 100Mbps
Ethernet. When more CE devices start to support gigabit Ethernet, it will
be easy to have a single recorder serve all the displays in your home.

--
Jeff Rife | "She just dropped by to remind me that my life
| is an endless purgatory, interrupted by profound
| moments of misery."
| -- Richard Karinsky, "Caroline in the City"
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 9:40:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:38:00 -0700 Fred Bloggs <SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:

| Nothing that you run today will make much sense in a few years! Today, the
| only way I know of to distribute HDTV is to use component cables or HMDI, I
| have no clue as to the range of either. Soon, I suspect that most AV will be
| distributed wirelessly over your house WiFi network.

It could be argued at any point along a timeline that what is used today
will not make much sense, or just be useless, at some point in the future.
But I can't use that to justify not having anything at all. A previous
suggestion was to have conduit ready in the house for changes. I'd
already figured on doing that (including for power). So as technology
changes, so can my wiring.


| A few years back people were installing fiber optic cables, we all know how
| useful that turned out to be, so it is hard to predict the future.

It would be useful for networking. I already plan to do that for data.
If I could put A/V over fiber, that would be great. But it does not seem
to be a mature technology, yet. Maybe that's something for a few years
ahead.


| So I would suggest a central wiring closet, big conduits and whatever wiring
| makes sense for the system you have today. My guess is that today, most
| people have receivers or DVR's in each room with a TV, so RG6 is all that
| makes sense for AV (to get signal from where the cable or the dish enters
| the house to where you want it to go). Some rooms may have remote speakers,
| so speaker cable would be useful, and receivers with multi-room capability
| may have some form of wired remote. TiVo with HMO or TiVo to go, can
| distribute AV, but I think that is done over the LAN, so CAT6 makes sense
| (for now).

Actually, there will be a central "media store", not just a closet, with
media equipment, computers, and about a dozen rack cabinets to hold it.
And a small sound studio, too.

Since you are suggesting RG6 instead of HDMI, I suspect you are saying that
either I should run analog (maybe composite or component) if you are not
willing to include high definition in that, or SDI (and HD-SDI), if you
are. Do you think something may replace HDMI in the next few years?

If I am going to do any RF level stuff, then I need modulators for it.
SInce I don't want to do it analog, that means ATSC modulators. Which do
you think I should look at (if there are any)?

As for data, it won't be Cat6; it will be gigabit or faster fiber.


| Another consideration is the possibility of powered speakers in every room
| (and outside) with docks for iPods or satellite radio receivers - then you
| would need power at the speaker locations, and away to move the signal to
| the speakers.
|
| Then of course is the big screen inflatable projection TV by the pool and
| the hottub with built in plasma to consider .......

If I'm playing something back from DVR, what means do you think it should
travel over the wiring (when I say "wiring" I do include the fiber, too)?

I'd like to use SDI/HD-SDI, as it seems to be the best (although I have
found at least one flaw in it). Protocols I have looked at for A/V over IP
seem to be either way too complex or too immature. I'm sure I could design
better (but equally sure manufacturers would dismiss it without looking,
probably due to the NIH syndrome).

The analog days were simpler. With digital, there are so many ways to do
things, and the manufacturers seem to come up with the worst.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 5:20:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On 16 Aug 2005 17:40:35 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:

>On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:38:00 -0700 Fred Bloggs <SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>| Nothing that you run today will make much sense in a few years! Today, the
>| only way I know of to distribute HDTV is to use component cables or HMDI, I
>| have no clue as to the range of either. Soon, I suspect that most AV will be
>| distributed wirelessly over your house WiFi network.
>
>It could be argued at any point along a timeline that what is used today
>will not make much sense, or just be useless, at some point in the future.
> But I can't use that to justify not having anything at all. A previous
>suggestion was to have conduit ready in the house for changes. I'd
>already figured on doing that (including for power). So as technology
>changes, so can my wiring.
>

I believe that N.E.C. prohibits pulling data and power in the same
conduit. Just a word to the wise ...
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 12:53:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <6oc5g15g9jh7dd40lvos0q71g5821bcok6@4ax.com>,
Robert J. Raible <braible@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>I believe that N.E.C. prohibits pulling data and power in the same
>conduit. Just a word to the wise ...

Ideally, they should be as far away as possible from each other, and
then cross at 90 degrees where required. Of course, there are some
places where it's unavoidable, e.g. under a hallway floor, but
definitely avoid long runs of data and power, even in parallel seperate
conduits within a foot or so of each other.

Ralf.
--
Ranulf Doswell | Please note this e-mail address
www.ranulf.net | expires one month after posting.
August 17, 2005 12:53:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Ranulf Doswell wrote:
> In article <6oc5g15g9jh7dd40lvos0q71g5821bcok6@4ax.com>,
> Robert J. Raible <braible@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>>I believe that N.E.C. prohibits pulling data and power in the same
>>conduit. Just a word to the wise ...
>
>
> Ideally, they should be as far away as possible from each other, and
> then cross at 90 degrees where required. Of course, there are some
> places where it's unavoidable, e.g. under a hallway floor, but
> definitely avoid long runs of data and power, even in parallel seperate
> conduits within a foot or so of each other.


It's basically unavoidable in an in-wall installation. Just use
shielded audio/video cable (ethernet works great for speaker cabling in
a pinch too).

Cheers,
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 5:54:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On 17 Aug 2005 01:20:03 -0500 Robert J. Raible <braible@sonic.net> wrote:
| On 16 Aug 2005 17:40:35 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|
|>On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:38:00 -0700 Fred Bloggs <SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
|>
|>| Nothing that you run today will make much sense in a few years! Today, the
|>| only way I know of to distribute HDTV is to use component cables or HMDI, I
|>| have no clue as to the range of either. Soon, I suspect that most AV will be
|>| distributed wirelessly over your house WiFi network.
|>
|>It could be argued at any point along a timeline that what is used today
|>will not make much sense, or just be useless, at some point in the future.
|> But I can't use that to justify not having anything at all. A previous
|>suggestion was to have conduit ready in the house for changes. I'd
|>already figured on doing that (including for power). So as technology
|>changes, so can my wiring.
|>
|
| I believe that N.E.C. prohibits pulling data and power in the same
| conduit. Just a word to the wise ...

True. There is no intention to use the same conduit for both. Power
will have separate conduit.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 5:57:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On 17 Aug 2005 08:53:34 GMT Ranulf Doswell <usenet-2005-08@zion.ranulf.net> wrote:

| In article <6oc5g15g9jh7dd40lvos0q71g5821bcok6@4ax.com>,
| Robert J. Raible <braible@sonic.net> wrote:
|>
|>I believe that N.E.C. prohibits pulling data and power in the same
|>conduit. Just a word to the wise ...
|
| Ideally, they should be as far away as possible from each other, and
| then cross at 90 degrees where required. Of course, there are some
| places where it's unavoidable, e.g. under a hallway floor, but
| definitely avoid long runs of data and power, even in parallel seperate
| conduits within a foot or so of each other.

OTOH, fiber has no issue with power. Still, it can be a pain pulling
fiber when power is already in the conduit, so keeping them separate is
still a good idea. But paralleling won't be an issue with fiber.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 5:58:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:12:40 -0400 Ritz <ritz@mordor.net> wrote:
| Ranulf Doswell wrote:
|> In article <6oc5g15g9jh7dd40lvos0q71g5821bcok6@4ax.com>,
|> Robert J. Raible <braible@sonic.net> wrote:
|>
|>>I believe that N.E.C. prohibits pulling data and power in the same
|>>conduit. Just a word to the wise ...
|>
|>
|> Ideally, they should be as far away as possible from each other, and
|> then cross at 90 degrees where required. Of course, there are some
|> places where it's unavoidable, e.g. under a hallway floor, but
|> definitely avoid long runs of data and power, even in parallel seperate
|> conduits within a foot or so of each other.
|
|
| It's basically unavoidable in an in-wall installation. Just use
| shielded audio/video cable (ethernet works great for speaker cabling in
| a pinch too).

One can also use "shielded" power cable, too (e.g. type AC cable), if money
is not an issue.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
August 17, 2005 5:58:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:12:40 -0400 Ritz <ritz@mordor.net> wrote:
> | Ranulf Doswell wrote:
> |> In article <6oc5g15g9jh7dd40lvos0q71g5821bcok6@4ax.com>,
> |> Robert J. Raible <braible@sonic.net> wrote:
> |>
> |>>I believe that N.E.C. prohibits pulling data and power in the same
> |>>conduit. Just a word to the wise ...
> |>
> |>
> |> Ideally, they should be as far away as possible from each other, and
> |> then cross at 90 degrees where required. Of course, there are some
> |> places where it's unavoidable, e.g. under a hallway floor, but
> |> definitely avoid long runs of data and power, even in parallel seperate
> |> conduits within a foot or so of each other.
> |
> |
> | It's basically unavoidable in an in-wall installation. Just use
> | shielded audio/video cable (ethernet works great for speaker cabling in
> | a pinch too).
>
> One can also use "shielded" power cable, too (e.g. type AC cable), if money
> is not an issue.


Even if money IS an issue, it's not a huge difference in cost compared
to labour. I always use shielded power cabling on new installations in
my own homes. I also use shielded cabling when I make my own power
cords for A/V and computer equipment.

Cheers,
!