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ATIs R870 surfaces

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May 21, 2008 11:55:55 AM

its quite hard to believe this:
http://www.nordichardware.com/news,7766.html

More about : atis r870 surfaces

May 21, 2008 12:13:29 PM

Is it really too hard to believe? It is potentially only a doubling of what will be released in a few weeks time.
a c 171 U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 12:20:15 PM

Probably a bit optimistic, but I wouldn't be surprised by a number thats close to it. The 3870 has 320, the 4870 is rumored to have 480.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ati-radeon-4800,5223.h...

If they can double this, 960, then if you put two of these on a PCB, then you have nearly 2000 shaders on the R870. (even the article you posted said this would be for the x2.) The question is, can they double the number from 480 to ~1000? I'm not sure moving from 55nm to 40nm will give them the room they need for this. Not to mention the 4870 is supposed to do better then the 3870 because they increased the number of ROPs, etc. If they drastically increase the number of shaders, they won't have enough horsepower in the back to drive all of them.

It will be interesting to see. I'd rather keep paying attention to the 4870.
May 21, 2008 12:41:13 PM

actually is should give them the number they need..as going halves on a number actually quadruples the amount of transistors you can fit in the same area !
a b U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 12:53:08 PM

Heres more, its official GDDR5 "The days of monolithic mega-chips are gone. Being first to market with GDDR in our next-generation architecture, AMD is able to deliver incredible performance using more cost-effective GPUs," said Rick Bergman, Senior Vice President and General Manager, Graphics Product Group, AMD. "AMD believes that GDDR5 is the optimal way to drive performance gains while being mindful of power consumption. We’re excited about the potential GDDR5 brings to the table for innovative game development and even more exciting game play."
So far so good
a b U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 12:56:41 PM

From Nordic Hardware "Although, there so much more to GDDR5 than just the higher frequencies, and even though the fastest chips of today operate at 4.5GHz, 5GHz is very much feasible. One of the new features is improved error detection mechanisms for less system margin and more stable systems. It also brings a new adaptive interface timing, which means there is no need for trace length matching, thus cheaper PCBs.

Last but not least is the data eye optimization, which includes such key features as data/address bit inversion and adjustable driver strengths, voltages and terminations. Best case scenario this will lead to faster interface tweaking, relaxed transmission lines and, again, cheaper PCBs. So in the end, even if the GDDR5 chips may be more expensive and require more traces, the PCB design will be simpler and overall cheaper. Add to that, that GDDR5 is many times faster than GDDR3 and can operate over a narrower bus and still reach the same actual bandwidth. " Thats why theres no 512 bus. I also had read up on the GDDR5 earlier, and it sounds good, Im hoping implementation is as good as the paper/showing

May 21, 2008 1:11:26 PM

40x40 = 1600 nm2
55x55 = 3025 nm2

So a transistor on 40nm process takes near twice less area than 55nm process. There should be no problem of doubling the specs or RV770 in RV870.

Also notice that newer games are much more PostProcessing hungry than texture hungry. I can say new games like UT3 and Crysis use good enough textures and texture requirements will not go up so fast any more, while processing power will (shaders , aa etc). So if there is no much need for MUCH more TMUs then rv 870 can have not 64 but 48 only. That will leave room for even more processing power or 384 bit memory bus.

They also should not have problems of increasing the total area of the chip a little bit as 40nm takes less voltage / power to operate so they should be in normal consumptions even if the area of the chip is like 20% more.

All of this are estimates and guestimates but hey , why not possibilities :) 
May 21, 2008 1:16:57 PM

4745454b said:
Probably a bit optimistic, but I wouldn't be surprised by a number thats close to it. The 3870 has 320, the 4870 is rumored to have 480.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ati-radeon-4800,5223.h...

If they can double this, 960, then if you put two of these on a PCB, then you have nearly 2000 shaders on the R870. (even the article you posted said this would be for the x2.) The question is, can they double the number from 480 to ~1000? I'm not sure moving from 55nm to 40nm will give them the room they need for this. Not to mention the 4870 is supposed to do better then the 3870 because they increased the number of ROPs, etc. If they drastically increase the number of shaders, they won't have enough horsepower in the back to drive all of them.

It will be interesting to see. I'd rather keep paying attention to the 4870.

i thought only the TMU was increased.did they double the ROP from 16 to 32?
a b U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 1:19:20 PM

And itll be using GDDR5, at maybe 5Ghz. Maybe wont even need that 384 bus
May 21, 2008 1:22:27 PM

The_Abyss said:
Is it really too hard to believe? It is potentially only a doubling of what will be released in a few weeks time.

doubling 480 wont give you 1000 or 2000 :sarcastic: 
a b U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 1:22:57 PM

ROP is 16, TMUs 32. This is the X2 version, which goes 480 x 2 x 2
May 21, 2008 1:23:12 PM

area61 said:
doubling 480 wont give you 1000 or 2000 :sarcastic: 



right :)  , but its near. Dont get picky :p 
May 21, 2008 1:24:43 PM

and 2000 is stated for the x2 version (which could be 960x2 = 1920)
May 21, 2008 1:37:14 PM

Looks like the old ATI team became quite cautious with their memory bus architecture after the wasted 512 bit bus on the 2900 series.

Something tells me that they are not reaching for the high end crown but, again, for a solid high mid-range card.
May 21, 2008 1:40:11 PM

I also think the 512 bus was BIG mistake. instead they could put 32 TMU's and 24 ROPs for example and things would have been MUCH better
a b U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 1:40:19 PM

Over 60% of the monies made is in that segment. I think the AIB partners will like it also
a b U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 1:42:42 PM

If the X2 performs well, it may challenge the G280, and this time nVidia cant really do a X2, at least for awhile, so the X2 will compete for highend
May 21, 2008 2:03:43 PM

GT280 will be HUGE , about 600 mm2, that's ridiculous. They are getting like 100 chips from a 300mm wafer. I cant even image what power that monster will drain. However it have potential double specs so if it can double the performance of a 9800GTX then that will be quite a leap. Although I doubt the performance will be double, more like 50-60% more (again my guestimates :)  )

As I heard that 4870 should be about 25% faster than 9800GTX then a 4870x2 should be able to compete with the GT280.

Finally these monsters will probably be able to run Crysis at 1680x1050 VeryHigh 4xAA :D 

May 21, 2008 2:04:54 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
If the X2 performs well, it may challenge the G280, and this time nVidia cant really do a X2, at least for awhile, so the X2 will compete for highend

To be honest, i don't really care about ATI competing with Nvidia. I'm somewhat certain that NV will perform better.
The direction ATI is taking with the multi-chip approach is something i like though. If they manage to keep the chip size under control (maybe even shrink it with a refresh) and use GDDR5 to gain the benefit of better control over the bus traces on their PCBs, the x2 should be easy to manufacture. If they keep that up, i will start to hope for a x3 or so once the refresh looms on the horizon. And since that trend will continue, they better start to figure out how to have multiple chips share the same memory or at least parts of it (ie. texture memory).
I'm a little concerned regarding the power consumption and heat though. Then again, almost all new cards have been power hogs.

a b U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 2:15:15 PM

Theres talk of MCM for ATI, but then again, thatll cause more power usage. The G280 is too big to go X2, so it is what it is. Looking at the clocks on the ATI cards, theres lots of headroom, so thats good for ocing and of course power management.
a b U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 3:23:12 PM

rawsteel said:
GT280 will be HUGE , about 600 mm2, that's ridiculous. They are getting like 100 chips from a 300mm wafer.


If they're lucky, remember the yield issues of the G92.

Quote:
Finally these monsters will probably be able to run Crysis at 1680x1050 VeryHigh 4xAA :D 


Perhaps, but you still have to turn off motion blur, particle effects and shadows. :whistle: 
a b U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 3:33:55 PM

As for the original rumour.

2000 on the RV888whatever...

Is that with Physics processors? :sarcastic: 

Considering all the 800SPU rumours about the RV770 just months ago, I wouldn't put too much faith in anything talking about over the horizon chips.
May 21, 2008 3:39:53 PM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
If they're lucky, remember the yield issues of the G92.

Quote:
Finally these monsters will probably be able to run Crysis at 1680x1050 VeryHigh 4xAA :D 


Perhaps, but you still have to turn off motion blur, particle effects and shadows. :whistle: 


Nah, you'll just get "only" 40 fps with them on :p 
May 21, 2008 4:22:10 PM

I read somewhere that GTX 280 with Crysis on 19x12 with AA was "no problem" for the card.
a b U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 4:58:24 PM

DarthPiggie said:
I read somewhere that GTX 280 with Crysis on 19x12 with AA was "no problem" for the card.


Yes but, what settings (everything at max including post processing features, how much AA 4Xquality?), and is that in DX9 or DX10 mode?

Anywhoo, I'm not sure it matters much anymore at this stage in the life of Crysis, but it would make it nice to play a few level over again with everything maxed.

I think it'd matter more if Crysis had a good multi-player aspect that kept people playing it longer.

Just curious about how well they both play FallOut3, that's my next target, maybe FartCry2 also.
May 21, 2008 6:53:50 PM

Thats the thing, I dont think we need that much power yet, software still needs to catch up to hardware. Even Crysis can be played with a GTS G92 at very high with some AA at 12x10 with like 25~ frames/s. Surprisingly, that runs smooth.
a b U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 7:34:03 PM

Well I think those on the 24-30" LCDs are the ones they have to feed with the next performance boost.
May 21, 2008 7:48:00 PM

I hear rumors that the 4850 reached 990 MHz on air. If that is true then that's a hell of a good overclock, and also makes possible we can see some 4850/4870 XTX with even higher clocks later this year or on next update (which could be 40nm)
a b U Graphics card
May 21, 2008 8:08:35 PM

Well with the XT core shipping stock at 850, I'm not surprised with the right cooling it would push high mhz. I just hope they didn't confuse the core speed with the sahder speed, which wouldn't be as impressive of course.
May 21, 2008 8:24:50 PM

Slobogob said:
And since that trend will continue, they better start to figure out how to have multiple chips share the same memory or at least parts of it (ie. texture memory).



They already have.

The 4870 x2 already uses shared memory.
May 21, 2008 10:34:39 PM

No it wont, unfortunately.
a b U Graphics card
May 22, 2008 6:52:56 AM

Actually it probably will, since GDDR5 allows this as outline in Qimonda's whitepaper.

So I wouldn't be surprised if we see just that in the HD4870X2 or R700.
a b U Graphics card
May 22, 2008 7:00:47 AM

I cant believe the correction control of this memory. Im hoping its all true, cause if it is, this IS the future, just like AMD said, gones the day of the single chip monsters
May 23, 2008 2:26:07 AM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
Actually it probably will, since GDDR5 allows this as outline in Qimonda's whitepaper.

So I wouldn't be surprised if we see just that in the HD4870X2 or R700.

HD4870X2 is R700
a b U Graphics card
May 23, 2008 6:03:49 AM

Did you really need the aka to help you out with my reply? :sarcastic: 
!