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4850 performance

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June 2, 2008 7:23:29 AM

So with the 4850 coming out soon at $200 or so, it is probably okay to assume that it will outperform the cheaper 3870 and 8800gt. But other than that, what can we guess?

I just want some peoples opinions and assumptions. I think that it will probably perform at least on the level of the 8800gts, but maybe since it's a completely new architecture and not just a refresh, it will perform better than we can guess based on the price.

Like the 4870 is supposed to cost $300, and be the performance of the 3870X2, which is about $340 at the cheapest.

So does that mean we can assume that the 4850 can outperform a card that is the same price as it?

I know we don't really know anything yet. I'm just speculating, and I'm pretty excited for these new cards, so I like talking about it.

More about : 4850 performance

June 2, 2008 8:03:23 AM

4850 MIGHT JUST be better than the 8800GT... according to leaked benchies the performance of the 4870 is higher than even the 9800GX2.....by a large margin at that...so the 4850 can't be VERY far behind. Though there will be joys as well as disappointments ...but expect Radeon to snatch the tiara from Nvidia.

Anyhow you'll know the the benchmarks at the Computex trade show which began today morning.
June 2, 2008 8:48:56 AM

Shouldn't be that amazing to topple nVidia there since their last actual product (8 series) was released, what, 10, 20 years ago?

Of course, there's a reason ATI's release does not coincide with the upcoming nVidia release. heh. think of that.
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June 2, 2008 9:24:13 AM

1. AMD/ATI are looking for a bigger gap between 4870 and 4850 than there was between 3870 and 3850.

2. AMD/ATI are also looking to aggressively regain market share.


The question is, how desperate are they for market share? Are the parts priced to destroy Nvidia in price:p erformance, or are the parts priced because that is how they are relative to Nvidias performance?
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 9:34:55 AM

Weve all heard the rumors that the 4xxx series is producing great yields. If its true whats this mean? Also, weve heard rumors that the 4850 wont have GDDR5 because of competition within, or another card made by ATI. What do we know? The next gen is always better performing than the last. The specs? More tmus, more shaders, a higher clock and rumors of an unlocked core to shader ratio of 1 to 1. If the yields are good enough to compete with the 4870s, this means this card will oc nicely, the GDDR3 used will cut down the bandwidth, allowing for the 4870 to surpass it, but still itll be an inexpensive make. To me this sounds very much like the 1900xtx vs the 1900xt situation, where they had to cut the card back so it wouldnt be the same as the flagship, even tho you could easily do it by ocing the xt. Im guessing this card will be competing with the gts
June 2, 2008 10:03:53 AM

@jaydeejohn: Considering that yields is return of investment, in the sense that there are fewer defective parts, great yealds will mean it's easier to for ATi to produce more GPUs cheaper hopefully resulting in cheaper prices for us the consumers.
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 10:14:11 AM

Yea, but I was pointing out with greater yields it also means better chips overall, between 2 cards, the chips should be close to the same, like in the 1900 series
June 2, 2008 11:50:31 AM

mihirkula said:
4850 MIGHT JUST be better than the 8800GT... according to leaked benchies the performance of the 4870 is higher than even the 9800GX2.....by a large margin at that...so the 4850 can't be VERY far behind. Though there will be joys as well as disappointments ...but expect Radeon to snatch the tiara from Nvidia.

Anyhow you'll know the the benchmarks at the Computex trade show which began today morning.


This isn't what I heard at all. 4870 is supposed to be faster than 9800gtx but not gx2.

4850 is supposed to be 20 - 25 % faster than G92 and 4870 is supposed to be 30% faster than 4850.
June 2, 2008 12:20:07 PM

^....you need to look more closely my friend...4870 beats the $h!t out of the 9800GX2 according to the leaked benchies.... there was a 500 post thread in the forums too.

But then nothin is certain till the official benchies arrive.
June 2, 2008 12:38:35 PM

"leaked benchies" "leaked benchies" "leaked benchies" "leaked benchies" "leaked benchies" "leaked benchies" "leaked benchies"

link please
June 2, 2008 12:50:10 PM

Where are these "leaked benches"? The only thing I've seen are some unsubstantiated, probably viral activegraphs and a couple PR slides. I highly doubt a single 4870 will beat a 9800GX2. 4870 X2 maybe...

This all smacks of the benches people were convinced were real before the 29xx series showing it beating the pants off of the 8800 GTX. We know how that turned out... If you're looking for an indication of how a new card will perform, always look to the price.

Considering this, here's some educated speculation:

- 4850 will perform at or around 8800 GTS (G92) levels
- 4870 will slightly edge out 9800 GTX
- 4870 X2 will be marginally better than 9800 GX2, and about the same as 260 GTX
- 280 GTX will handily beat 4870 X2
- 280 GTX will not sell in volume (worldwide recession/high power prices anyone...?); ATI will clean up in the market with 48xx's until nV releases their next mid-range


- 4850 will be at or around 8800 GTS (G92) performance levels.
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 12:50:40 PM

Currently there isnt any leaked benchies. Im looking east for those. ^ This looks reasonable. Im not holding out hope for miracles for ATI. It could be better, but at least what youve said is reasonable. Is this bad for ATI? If you can get a card that gets GTS performance for a 180 bucks, then thats nice. And if its a little better, nicer, and the rumored kick@$$, well of courase thatd be great, but Ill wait for the benchies
June 2, 2008 1:00:36 PM

mihirkula said:
^....you need to look more closely my friend...4870 beats the $h!t out of the 9800GX2 according to the leaked benchies.... there was a 500 post thread in the forums too.

But then nothin is certain till the official benchies arrive.


OMG! a 500 post thread!!, well there you have it folks, proof positive, thats all the evidence we need then..... :pfff: 
June 2, 2008 1:07:18 PM

It's total conjecture, but I suspect the lack of leaked benches may indicate the new cards will do very well and as a result the companies are doing their best to keep the scores quiet.

The reason is that if these cards are monsters, people will put off buying current stock, while if they are only slightly better folks may just buy now anyway.

But I'm looking forward to some benches myself.
June 2, 2008 1:31:35 PM

12 more days.why do i feel something bad is going to happen??hmm...i smell.....burnt hd2900xt.hahahaha.....just jokin.as far as leaked benches are concerned,they are just fake.anyone is smart enough to say that they(the sites, eg:fud,nord) just need the crowd.But i wonder who is this CJ guy?is he Carl Johnson:GTA san andreas??
June 2, 2008 1:32:30 PM

That is an excellent point. A primary reason NDA's exist is that companies are usually trying to unload a surplus of current-gen merchandise - and why buy a hotter, lower-performing card when you know a cheaper more powerful one is a few week's away. 48xx will, of course, perform much better than 37xx, but considering the price points, they won't be paradigm-changing.

Another way companies try to offload surplus is stifle supply of the next gen cards for a few months: this is one of the reasons for "paper launches" and low volume deliveries (e.g., Intel q9450). I doubt a stifled supply will be the case with 48xx as yields are (reportedly) good and AMD/ATI realizes they have a short window to sell before nV releases their next-gen midrange; it's a golden opportunity for them.
June 2, 2008 1:39:39 PM

mihirkula said:
^....you need to look more closely my friend...4870 beats the $h!t out of the 9800GX2 according to the leaked benchies.... there was a 500 post thread in the forums too.

But then nothin is certain till the official benchies arrive.


Yup that's genuine benchmarks. :pt1cable: 

Let me remind you SLI doesn't scale too great especially at lower resolutions. Things change when you up the resolution however.

4870 beating out GX2 doesn't make much sense. It won't. It will come close though. maybe 20-30% shy.

1 thing is sure 4800 will have better AA performance. More shader and TMU will help in their situation.
June 2, 2008 1:46:29 PM

4800 will outperform G92 cards that run on 256-bit bus (which all current G92 cards do), but the good ole G80 will stay ahead only bested by X2 variants.
June 2, 2008 1:52:32 PM

Ycon said:
4800 will outperform G92 cards that run on 256-bit bus (which all current G92 cards do), but the good ole G80 will stay ahead only bested by X2 variants.


huh?

Why would x2 lose to a G80? 4800 will be faster than G80 or G92. Currently G92 is neck and neck with G80 even with 4xAA while have much lower bandwidth.

June 2, 2008 2:01:57 PM

Ycon said:
4800 will outperform G92 cards that run on 256-bit bus (which all current G92 cards do), but the good ole G80 will stay ahead only bested by X2 variants.

dude,seriously you should start reading reviews on the G92 and G80
June 2, 2008 2:05:45 PM

harmattan said:
Where are these "leaked benches"? The only thing I've seen are some unsubstantiated, probably viral activegraphs and a couple PR slides. I highly doubt a single 4870 will beat a 9800GX2. 4870 X2 maybe...

This all smacks of the benches people were convinced were real before the 29xx series showing it beating the pants off of the 8800 GTX. We know how that turned out... If you're looking for an indication of how a new card will perform, always look to the price.

Considering this, here's some educated speculation:

- 4850 will perform at or around 8800 GTS (G92) levels
- 4870 will slightly edge out 9800 GTX
- 4870 X2 will be marginally better than 9800 GX2, and about the same as 260 GTX
- 280 GTX will handily beat 4870 X2
- 280 GTX will not sell in volume (worldwide recession/high power prices anyone...?); ATI will clean up in the market with 48xx's until nV releases their next mid-range


- 4850 will be at or around 8800 GTS (G92) performance levels.


While this may be close to accurate as far as 4850 vs 8800gts g92, everything I have seen indicates that the 4870 will have FAR better performance than the 9800 gtx, perhaps even better than the 9800gx2.
June 2, 2008 2:07:22 PM

260 and 280GTX will be so much faster. It's no brainer. Their old AA method will barely tax their hardware with the new chips.
June 2, 2008 2:12:17 PM

darkdisciple said:
While this may be close to accurate as far as 4850 vs 8800gts g92, everything I have seen indicates that the 4870 will have FAR better performance than the 9800 gtx, perhaps even better than the 9800gx2.


Definitely be much better than 9800gtx for sure. Probably 50% faster. Not sure about beating out the GX2 though.

One thing is certain a single chip card will be better than a dual chip card like GX2 in some things.
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 2:50:04 PM


Yea i kinda figured they must be up to something when they upped the TMU's and left the ROP's at 16. IM quite happy to wait for the official benchmarks,but i recon the full fat single core variant of the new ATI series has to surpass the Nvidia currant crop by at least 25% to be viable even at a price point. The new Nvidia cards should make things interesting. Wonder who will end up releasing first ? It seems that this time neither side is to sure what to expect from the other.
As far as G80 or G92 (9800GX2) goes, Most of the reviews i have seen have concluded that you may as well have a GTX instead due to the extra bandwidth. Which still makes the ULTRA the best all round card you can get ? thats not right is it ?
Mactronix
June 2, 2008 2:50:14 PM

warezme said:
OMG! a 500 post thread!!, well there you have it folks, proof positive, thats all the evidence we need then..... :pfff: 


Glad you finally got it... we thought you never would lmfao :p 
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 3:11:35 PM

Currently the Ultra is the fastest single gpu made
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 3:31:15 PM

harmattan said:
Where are these "leaked benches"? The only thing I've seen are some unsubstantiated, probably viral activegraphs and a couple PR slides. I highly doubt a single 4870 will beat a 9800GX2. 4870 X2 maybe...

This all smacks of the benches people were convinced were real before the 29xx series showing it beating the pants off of the 8800 GTX. We know how that turned out... If you're looking for an indication of how a new card will perform, always look to the price.

Considering this, here's some educated speculation:

- 4850 will perform at or around 8800 GTS (G92) levels
- 4870 will slightly edge out 9800 GTX
- 4870 X2 will be marginally better than 9800 GX2, and about the same as 260 GTX
- 280 GTX will handily beat 4870 X2
- 280 GTX will not sell in volume (worldwide recession/high power prices anyone...?); ATI will clean up in the market with 48xx's until nV releases their next mid-range


- 4850 will be at or around 8800 GTS (G92) performance levels.


So will the 280GTX handily beat the 4870X2 BEFORE or AFTER the 55nm die shrink to address the heat and power issues?

Seems to be that nVidia needs the die shrink, move to GDDR5, and drop the price in order to be competitive with the 4850/4870.

Still taking all this with a grain of salt until the retail versions are available and some 3rd parties and reiew sites perform their own benches.
June 2, 2008 3:38:57 PM

I can tell you I'm gonna be the first guy in the long line of disgruntled blokes wielding a blunt object at Hector ruiz's doorstep if the new Radeons turn out to be bull...what with all the amount of time spent on speculation/discussions/jabberings/ranting/shenanigans regarding the cards.
a c 192 U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 3:56:09 PM

Wait a minute...you're going to blame someone else (Hector Ruiz), because you listened to blather and FUD???


:pfff: 
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 3:59:04 PM

mihirkula said:
I can tell you I'm gonna be the first guy in the long line of disgruntled blokes wielding a blunt object at Hector ruiz's doorstep if the new Radeons turn out to be bull...what with all the amount of time spent on speculation/discussions/jabberings/ranting/shenanigans regarding the cards.

:o  :o  :o  :fou:  :fou:  I say go for it
June 2, 2008 4:18:32 PM

jtt283...FUD is a huge Nvidia supporter.... so that goes out the window.... the long line would exist not because Fud rambles, but because much has been promised by AMD where i WORK .........
June 2, 2008 4:36:09 PM

^^ I checked out the link and it seemed like complete crap. I hate it when people make graphs without units, and alter the number axis to make it seem that one card is ten times better then another card.
June 2, 2008 4:38:25 PM

In particular I am referring to the 3870X2 theoretical comparison to the GX 280 that is posted on the website
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 4:45:22 PM

That graph was from nVidia . Not from them. This doesnt make it any more creditable, but it wasnt their graph
June 2, 2008 6:23:10 PM

Amiga500 said:
1. AMD/ATI are looking for a bigger gap between 4870 and 4850 than there was between 3870 and 3850.

2. AMD/ATI are also looking to aggressively regain market share.


The question is, how desperate are they for market share? Are the parts priced to destroy Nvidia in price:p erformance, or are the parts priced because that is how they are relative to Nvidias performance?

If ATI Are clever they have a golden chance to gain market if they sell 4870 at not more than 250$
Many are waiting new generation and will run after 4870 for such price
And everybody is 99.99% sure that 280GTX will blow 4870
If 4870 is released today for 400-500$ and 280GTX will be released after one month definitely I'll not run for 4870 and I'll wait 280GTX release to compare performance and prices then make up my mind
Unless both giants ATI and nVidia have a secret agenda to rip us and not allow prices to drop down :heink: 
However I'm satisfied now with my 8800GTS(512) OC'd to 765/1890/1100
So I'm waiting what ATI will come up with
Nobody will get more than 200-250$ from my money :D 
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 6:35:13 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Currently the Ultra is the fastest single gpu made


Yep that's pretty much what i thought, its quite amazing really on the one hand you have ATI playing catch up due to some dodgy goal post moving in Nvidea's favour on m$'s part. Then you have Nvidea who better have been sitting on one hell of a card all this time, makes perfect business sence but i just have a niggle that without releases they may have teething problems, you need feedback from the masses to work out all the niggles right?
So ATI have had plenty of time to catch up with the new rules and Nvidia have had plenty of time to perfect whatever it is they have been sitting on. One way or another this summer should see some pretty good increases in capabilities right acrss the board. Top end Nvidia, mainstream and value end ATI. But i honestly wouldnt be surprised if the ATI cards surprised us all with what they can do. They know why the cards were not performing to the best of there abilities and should have got it sorted by now, the additions to the core IF they have it all working correctly will make it one hell of a GPU but thats a big if.
Mactronix :) 
June 2, 2008 7:31:18 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Currently there isnt any leaked benchies. Im looking east for those. ^ This looks reasonable. Im not holding out hope for miracles for ATI. It could be better, but at least what youve said is reasonable. Is this bad for ATI? If you can get a card that gets GTS performance for a 180 bucks, then thats nice. And if its a little better, nicer, and the rumored kick@$$, well of courase thatd be great, but Ill wait for the benchies


marvelous211 said:
This isn't what I heard at all. 4870 is supposed to be faster than 9800gtx but not gx2.

4850 is supposed to be 20 - 25 % faster than G92 and 4870 is supposed to be 30% faster than 4850.



yes ati is going to compete with nvidia's last genhttp://img.tomshardware.com/forum/uk/icones/smilies/lol...
:lol: 
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 8:01:22 PM


What i want to know is if Nvidia have solved the problem highlighted by the guys at Beyond 3D about the missing MUL ?
If they still have this issue then they are not going to be the beasts people are saying and even if they have fixed it i think performance between both sets of cards will be quite close.
Mactronix
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 8:23:47 PM

From what Ive heard, the missing MUL will be working this time around
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 9:26:06 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
From what Ive heard, the missing MUL will be working this time around


Should be good then, its just that obviously if it wasnt then the claimed flops would be in question.
Role on show time. :) 
Mactronix
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 10:03:22 PM

The funny thing is that it's 1 step forward 2 steps back. nV potential fix their missing-MUL issue, and ATi return to hardware resolve. The only problem, they both still end up behind each other.

On the Flops side, even with the missing flops it looks like the RV770XT will be ahead in that area with a doubling of computational power over the RV670, and the G200 will be just under a doubling of power from the G80.

So it should end up with the GTX280 just under 1TFlop and the RV770XT at just over on 1TFlop.

But from the other part of this equation ATi returns to resolve hardware in the ROPs but is still down 32-16 in the ROP count. Now thei ROPs should be ~33% faster than the competition, but that still means about a 3:2 ratio (or 32:22), so they still trail in potentail AA performance. Of course it could free up resources for shader ops, but it's not like they were lacking in shader power before.

Anywhoo, should be interesting, but definitely no way of telling for sure how this all adds up since it's changing so much from what came before it.

I suspect it'll still come down to price/performance, and also who can make the case for why to upgrade from previous capable systems (lots of HD3870 and GF8800GT/GTS/GTX are still going strong).

Even for nV the worst thing is the knowledge that they're hurrying out a replacement shrink. Would you buy a 65nm G200 for anywhere near $600 if you new a cooler and potentially faster replacement were coming shortly? Would you buy the GTX-260 with that realization?

Both companies are going to need to make compelling reasons to buy these new cards. They'll both have their initial easy target sales, but overall I don't know about their longevity without some push to justify them to people already somewhat happy.

Anywhoo, just 2 more weeks.
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 10:14:44 PM

If enough demanding games come out, and theres always just the plain ol "just have to get it " itch. Heres a good rumor fore you GGA. Someone said maybe part of the AA, or at some level, could still be done with shaders, and thats where the 800 shader rumor came in. Thoughts?
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 10:49:00 PM

Well both could still do it in shaders, but you lose the benefit of the hardware resolve, and there's no way to combo this, and it wouldn't involve any portion that could be construed as part of '800' shaders. I still think that rumour was a mess up of what was being done, and I really still just think some knob to the old number and new number and added them together 320+480 shaders equals....

But I don't think there's anything shader intensive for gaming coming out anytime soon. Major titles like Fallout3 and FartCry2 are going to be less shader intensive than Crysis.

Nothing major for the fall IMO, Maybe Left 4 dead, or Project Origin, but that's about it until 2009.
June 2, 2008 11:01:34 PM

Console are kings at the moment and I cant see Microsoft or Sony replacing they're stuff for a while, with that I dont really see anything that ground breaking in terms of graphics power ( it will have to be console portable ) coming out in the next 18 months..

1920 by 1200 will become more standard, thats about it imo..
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2008 11:02:44 PM

So its not even possible. Thanx. Well that quells any last bit of that rumor heheh
June 2, 2008 11:37:11 PM

mactronix said:
What i want to know is if Nvidia have solved the problem highlighted by the guys at Beyond 3D about the missing MUL ?
If they still have this issue then they are not going to be the beasts people are saying and even if they have fixed it i think performance between both sets of cards will be quite close.
Mactronix


I searched around their site for that article but couldn't find it. Also, I'm not sure what you are referring to (MUL). Please advise.
June 2, 2008 11:47:49 PM

scooterlibby said:
I searched around their site for that article but couldn't find it. Also, I'm not sure what you are referring to (MUL). Please advise.


MUL is the integer part of SP.
!