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Does the motherboard matter?

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May 16, 2008 7:32:04 AM

I've always had a question about the FSB:

For example, If I purchased a more expensive (Ex: Ga-P35-DS3R) and used the same model 1066 Mhz FSB CPU (Ex: Intel Dual Core E2200)

VS an older more inexpensive model (Ex: GA-965P-DS3)
but with the exact same CPU,

Would it make that much of a difference in performance and speed? Or
does performance and speed *Primarily depend on the CPU and Memory (And the Motherboard difference is insignificant)


More about : motherboard matter

May 16, 2008 7:40:20 AM

As long as the CPU and memory can run at the given speed, then the MB doesn't matter. However, it's the MB that determines the "as long as..." part, which is why MBs (especially chipset models) are important.
May 16, 2008 7:41:34 AM

If you're not overclocking, and all your parts are compatible, there shouldn't be a noticeable difference between the two boards.
Related resources
May 16, 2008 7:55:09 AM

Mondoman:

"it's the MB that determines the "as long as..." part, which is why MBs (especially chipset models) are important."


okay, I sort of understand what you mean. That a motherboard may have a limitation (If you have 2 significantly different motherboards)
But can you elaborate on the chipset model differences etc?


Seboj:

I am thinking about overclocking, what would be the difference between those boards if I overclocked them?

Which one would be better?



1.GA-965P-DS3 $90
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

2.GA-P35-DS3L $90
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

3.GA-P35-DS3R $120
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
May 16, 2008 7:57:32 AM

The P35 memory controller is better, and there has been reviews done which determine that the P35 is about 20% faster than the 965P.
I think the comparisons can be found here on Toms.
In the tests everything was the same but the motherboard. The question I would ask is, does this make a difference to you in your situation.
I recently had an Asus 975 board go bad on me, as i didn't want to wait for the RMA exchange I bought a DFI 965P board. I'm happy I did as it has the faster southbridge that works better as a raid 0 controller. Also Asus sent me a replacement that had obvious bad caps on it, and I have to send it back again. Needless to say I'm not very happy with Asus at the moment.
The chip set does make a difference on the motherboard. I say look at reviews and go to the manufacturers forums to see what issues people are having with the boards that you are looking to buy.
May 16, 2008 8:03:16 AM

I have not personally owned a P35, but it's my understanding that they OC like a monster.

Out of those 3 boards, I would go with one of the p35's, depending on the features I required.

Out of the P35's, however, I would probably go with the GA-P35-DS3L, due to the fact that it uses all-solid capacitors.
May 16, 2008 8:14:58 AM

"I have not personally owned a P35, but it's my understanding that they OC like a monster. "

..nice!!! That makes me really wanna get the P35 board

But i've always wondering about Overclocking.

Does it cause more wear and tear on your overall computer // CPU?



Secondly, how exactly do I overclock? (Is it basically changing some bios options?)

And what are the basic requirements for me to overclock safely:
(For example, I heard you might need a good enough power supply)




a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
May 16, 2008 8:32:53 AM

To overclock you (normally) put the FSB up bit by bit in the BIOS stress testing in between.
To take it further you can also up the voltage.
beyond that it starts to get a bit more complicated changing multipliers for CPU and FSB:RAM ratios, and upping voltage of northbridge, southbridge, RAM etc.

It will decrease the life of parts (and void warrwnties) but if you're anything like us, everything gets changed regularly enough that it won't matter!
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
May 16, 2008 9:37:18 AM

You can't overclock an Intel with multipliers unless it's an extreme edition. OP mentioned the e2200 which would need to be OCed with the FSB
May 16, 2008 10:17:00 AM

the DS3L and DS3R dont differ much. actually the "R" stands for raid. so if u wanna use raid. use the DS3R. otherwise, get the DS3L. im using it. :) 
May 17, 2008 2:11:31 AM

Thanks for all the replies guys!

It looks like i'm going for the GA-P35-DS3L as i have no reason for raid.


*Now as for the FUN PART, Overclocking :) 

the CPU's i'm looking at the Intel Dual-Core processor:

E2160, E2180, E2200, E2220 1.6 GHZ -> 2.2 GHZ


*It seems that one of the biggest safety/stability factors for overclocking is the temperature on the CPU. (please update me if there are also other key factors)

I know most people want performance, but I'm interested in *Stability/Safety first, Then performance comes next.


Out of these 4 processors, which one will be the *Coolest, and yet has the potential to perform like a champion?

I noticed that the CPU guide recommends the E2160 as the choice, but I don't know how updated the list is, etc.

What do you guys think?

May 17, 2008 3:45:03 AM

E2200. The multiplier is higher in the E2200 so it will requirer a lower FSB to reach your desired speed (ie. 3GHz)

E2160=1800MHz=200 (FSB) x 9 (multiplier) To reach 3.0 requires 333 FSB
E2180=2000MHz=200 (FSB) x 10 (multiplier) To reach 3.0 requires 300 FSB
E2200=2200MHz=200 (FSB) x11 (multiplier) To reach 3.0 requires 272 FSB

The lower the FSB, the lower the voltages the chipset and FSB need, the easier it can be to OC the RAM, ect. Higher multi is always preferred.
May 17, 2008 4:37:11 AM

Ok, so the Higher the Multiplier, the *Safer // Cooler.

That's what I'm looking for. (E2200 or 2220)

However, the Lower the multiplier (E2160), the more performance // faster if you correctly 'tweak'//overclock.



"i think the 2160 would give you a faster pc overall but since your really pushing that cpu to get to those high clocks you might have some heat problems....but nothing a good HSF cant handle" -xtkxhom3r

Ok, so EVEN IF, overclocking the 2160 would produce more heat, a powerful enough HSF could NEUTRALIZEZ that heat.

The question is this:


*Would an AWESOME HSF with a 2160 maxed out (At the safest level),
= the same long term life // protection as a 2200?



Here's another factor I want to consider:

Before I start overclocking, I'm going to run my computer "normally" for awhile. (I'm going to overclock it when I feel that I need a boost in performance)


Would getting an E2200/E2220 2.0GHZ VS an E2160 1.6GHZ

make a difference in performance? (When not overclocked)

should I pay the extra $20-30 for the extra .4 GHZ ?

What do you guys think?

Is my strategy flawed? Should I just OC it from the beginning? I'm not really a gamer, but I plan on watching HD movies and HD television shows from time to time..
May 17, 2008 5:25:42 AM

*IF* you are looking for only 3 GHz to overclock, the e2160 is best, as it hits 3.0 GHz on a standard bus speed (333MHz fsb). That way, even a simple pin mod can put you to 333 fsb without the need for elaborate overclocking support through the bios, and should lead to a more stable computer overall. Although, your motherboard would have to support 333fsb CPUs in order for a 333fsb pin mod to work. As an example, you could buy an inexpensive ECS motherboard with 333 fsb support for around $60. Then, pinmod the CPU to 333 fsb, achieve 3GHz overclock, and call it a day, all the while saving a bunch of cash by not purchasing an "overclocking" motherboard. It's not for everyone though.
May 17, 2008 6:12:37 AM

Quote:
Ok, so the Higher the Multiplier, the *Safer // Cooler.

That's what I'm looking for. (E2200 or 2220)

However, the Lower the multiplier (E2160), the more performance // faster if you correctly 'tweak'//overclock.



I just want to snub that out right now. Higher FSB with a lower multiplier makes -no- performance difference when compared to lower FSB with a higher multiplier.

So:

10x @ 300 FSB = 3ghz
8x @ 375 FSB = 3ghz

They will both perform exactly the same. The only difference is that 300 FSB will be less stress on the motherboard compared to 375, so if you're running a crappy mobo, you'd want to aim at a low FSB to ensure your overclock. The P35 can overclock reliably over 450, so that's not really an issue. You also need to consider your RAM raito, but I just want to make sure you understand that higher FSB no longer = higher performance.
May 17, 2008 7:14:01 AM


"I just want to snub that out right now. Higher FSB with a lower multiplier makes -no- performance difference when compared to lower FSB with a higher multiplier."

Seboj: Got it.


THanks for all the replies guys, you guys have helped me narrow down my choices. I will have all the following parts in a few days as I am ordering real soon.

1.Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

2.CPU: Intel Pentium E2180 Allendale 2.0GHz Dual-Core
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

3.Memory (TWO of these) 1 Gig ram total
Kingston 512MB DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

4.Graphics Card
MSI Radeon HD 3650 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express 2.0 x16
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

------------------------------------------------------------------
The ones below are the devices I already have, and am going to use them for my new motherboard:

5. Hard Drive #1 (Older HD)
HD ST380021A Barracuda ATA IV 80021 Ultra ATA/100 70 gigs 7200 RPM
http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/ata/st380021a.html

6.Hard Drive #2 (Older HD)
WDC (Western Digital) WD1200 JB-00EVAD) ATA 100 gigs

7.Monitor
Proview PS576W 15 Inches Flatscreen

8. DVD RW #1 (Purchased in 2004. Older DVD writer)
Toshiba DVD-Rom SD_R5112

9. DVD RW #2
NEC DVD_RW ND-3550A


-----------------------------------------------------------------


10.*MY Power Supply is the:
Eagle DR-B300ATX ATX 300 Watts V. 2.03 +12V Voltage 115V 230V Freq 60HZ - 50HZ Current 8A 4A

Questions:

1. Is this power supply sufficient? for the current setup?

2. What about in the future when I start overclocking my E2200?
Can I still use this power supply?
Or do I need a stronger power supply?

3. Do you see any conflicts? Or should I be 'good to go' :) 


Thanks a million
May 17, 2008 8:31:52 AM

It will "work"...maybe. Depending on how good the quality of the PSU is. I don't believe it to be a good one at first glance.

However IF it does work, it will be FULLY loading that poor little PSU. Not only that, you'll never be able to overclock with it.

I would most certainly upgrade that PSU. Even thinking about using the Eagle for your new build is just asking for trouble.

Any High Grade 400Watt PSU or better will do great, even if you overclock the Allendale to 3.2ghz with a 1.5vcore.
May 17, 2008 9:37:33 AM

Look at getting 2 GB of RAM for a few more dollars. If this were an office computer I'd say 1 GB is fine but 2 GB is worth it for gaming.

I wouldn't say you CAN'T overclock with it, overclocking doesn't use THAT much more juice, but it would certainly put more stress on the unit, which is risky.
May 17, 2008 9:49:25 AM

Quote:
It will "work"...maybe. Depending on how good the quality of the PSU is. I don't believe it to be a good one at first glance.

However IF it does work, it will be FULLY loading that poor little PSU. Not only that, you'll never be able to overclock with it.

I would most certainly upgrade that PSU. Even thinking about using the Eagle for your new build is just asking for trouble.

Any High Grade 400Watt PSU or better will do great, even if you overclock the Allendale to 3.2ghz with a 1.5vcore.



What about this piece,
Thermaltake TR2 W0070RUC 430W ATX Power Supply 115/ 230 V - Retail
Its on sale for like $23 (After rebate - tax - shipping)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


Is this brand/model high grade enough?
May 17, 2008 9:51:20 AM

Quote:
Look at getting 2 GB of RAM for a few more dollars. If this were an office computer I'd say 1 GB is fine but 2 GB is worth it for gaming.

I wouldn't say you CAN'T overclock with it, overclocking doesn't use THAT much more juice, but it would certainly put more stress on the unit, which is risky.


Yeah, I eventualy plan to purchase more Ram, but i want to see how it goes performance wise with this setup, then i'll build and work from there :) 
May 17, 2008 9:54:47 AM

The TR2 is better than what you've got, but they aren't on the "Top Tier" (high quality). I posted a nice Antec on your other thread that is "Tier 2", great quality, great efficiency and very quiet.
May 17, 2008 10:04:50 AM

Thanks for the link Nvalhalla!

Well about the RAM..

Since I purchased like 800 DDR 2 ram, would I be able to purchase 1066 in the future?

How about this, what ram setup would you reccomend is the "Top Tier" (Price Performance wise: VS super high costs)

for ram? ... Am I on the correct path with the kingston?

or should I supplement my kingstons with an additional superior brand/type?
May 17, 2008 10:05:34 AM

That Corsair is also very good. A Tier 2 PSU as well.
May 17, 2008 10:11:31 AM

I don't tend to worry too much about brand. Kingston is fine, I usually use ADATA, not that it's any "better". If you get 800 RAM now the 1066 RAM will be underclocked to 800 if it is added to it latter. You can only run as fast as your slowest RAM. Speed isn't needed above 800 (you should get 800 for easier overclocking) but quantity is important. I would still recommend 2 GB of DDR2-800 for gaming, you will need it. You can then add another 2 GB later when cash permits/ games demand.
May 17, 2008 5:24:09 PM


I went back and forth on the 380 vs the 430. I liked the 380's Price but the 430 Watt #. However.. I think i'm going to purchase the 380 Antec because its cheaper. However, I'm still trying to overcome my emotional bias that its 380 Watts, since it would perfectly suit my needs.
(Unless there was another high grade // level 2 with higher watts that was around the price range of the antec...)


Quote:
I don't tend to worry too much about brand. Kingston is fine, I usually use ADATA, not that it's any "better". If you get 800 RAM now the 1066 RAM will be underclocked to 800 if it is added to it latter. You can only run as fast as your slowest RAM. Speed isn't needed above 800 (you should get 800 for easier overclocking) but quantity is important. I would still recommend 2 GB of DDR2-800 for gaming, you will need it. You can then add another 2 GB later when cash permits/ games demand.



hmmmm ok, maybe I'll order another 1 gig of this ram. (I've already purchased the (2) 512 MB's Kingston). I think that's a good idea.

however, I'm reading on the Overclocking sticky:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/240001-29-howto-overc...

In the section, "Memory", graysky states...

Quote:

"3. Memory
You will need memory that can keep up with your overclocked system. Again, I’m not going to keep a list. You’ll see RAM listed with timings and speeds that I’ll decode for you using the following examples:

Quote :

DDR2-800 (PC2-6400) 4-4-4-12
DDR2-1066 (PC2-8500) 5-5-5-15

• The first part is self-explanatory (DDR2 memory).
• The number after it is the data transfer rate. Simply divide it by 2 to get the maximum FSB speed for which the module is rated. Example: 800/2 = 400 MHz. Therefore, DDR2-800 can work on systems with a FSB of up to 400 MHz (anything more and you’re lucky).
• The PC2-XXXX is designation denoting theoretical bandwidth in MB/s. Some memory manufactures use this instead of the DDR2-xxx designation. You can calculate it for any FSB you want by simply taking the FSB and multiplying by 16 (rounded in some cases). Example using a 400 MHz FSB: 400x16=6400. So you’d need at least PC2-6400 to run on a FSB of 400 MHz.

The numbers after that are the main timings (clock cycles). In general, the lower these numbers are, the faster the memory. For more on memory timings, see this page."




OK. I actually have no idea what this means, until I start breaking down the entire OC process. (Which I will in the future :)  the fun part, remember?)

So regarding this post, I am wondering if my RAM:
(2) 512 Kingstons DDR2 800 PC2 6400
and my 1 gig Kingston DDR2 800 PC2 6400
(TOTAL 2 gigs)

will work when I plan to overclock in the future? (So I don't have to purchase any new ram in the future to meet my OCing needs)
May 17, 2008 9:24:59 PM

It's silly these days to use 512MB RAM modules. Return your Kingston modules, even if you take a loss, and buy 2x1GB RAM. Running 2 RAM modules (instead of 4) will reduce potential problems if you decide to overclock the RAM down the road (which you don't need to for the e2xxx speeds we're talking about).
Get something like this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... (only $38 after rebate).
Stay away from RAM with a spec voltage higher than 1.9V.
May 17, 2008 10:21:21 PM

Quote:
E2200. The multiplier is higher in the E2200 so it will requirer a lower FSB to reach your desired speed (ie. 3GHz)

E2160=1800MHz=200 (FSB) x 9 (multiplier) To reach 3.0 requires 333 FSB
E2180=2000MHz=200 (FSB) x 10 (multiplier) To reach 3.0 requires 300 FSB
E2200=2200MHz=200 (FSB) x11 (multiplier) To reach 3.0 requires 272 FSB

The lower the FSB, the lower the voltages the chipset and FSB need, the easier it can be to OC the RAM, ect. Higher multi is always preferred.


I dont agree with that at all. I would rather have a 3.2ghz chip with 400FSB than a 3.2ghz chip with 333 or 300FSB by far.

If you're worried about low voltages and high ghz then yes, get a higher miltiplier. If you're looking for the best perormance OC disreguarding voltages then go for the one that gives you the hightest stable speed and fastest FSB.
May 17, 2008 10:52:06 PM

This topic has been moved from the section CPU-Components to section Homebuilt Systems by Jake_Barnes
May 19, 2008 6:59:16 PM

Mondoman said:
It's silly these days to use 512MB RAM modules. Return your Kingston modules, even if you take a loss, and buy 2x1GB RAM. Running 2 RAM modules (instead of 4) will reduce potential problems if you decide to overclock the RAM down the road (which you don't need to for the e2xxx speeds we're talking about).
Get something like this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... (only $38 after rebate).



But what If I weren't going to overclock my RAM?

Can I can still overclock my CPU with 3 sticks RAM without those potential problems you were talking about?


Mondoman said:

Stay away from RAM with a spec voltage higher than 1.9V.



Aren't my Kingstons 1.8* volts which is lower?
May 19, 2008 7:10:11 PM

connect4 said:
I've always had a question about the FSB:

For example, If I purchased a more expensive (Ex: Ga-P35-DS3R) and used the same model 1066 Mhz FSB CPU (Ex: Intel Dual Core E2200)

VS an older more inexpensive model (Ex: GA-965P-DS3)
but with the exact same CPU,

Would it make that much of a difference in performance and speed? Or
does performance and speed *Primarily depend on the CPU and Memory (And the Motherboard difference is insignificant)

MOBO dose matter more than you think. But high priced MOBO is not always the best.
May 19, 2008 7:11:25 PM

connect4 said:
But what If I weren't going to overclock my RAM?

Can I can still overclock my CPU with 3 sticks RAM without those potential problems you were talking about?





Aren't my Kingstons 1.8* volts which is lower?


Good point. And yeah Kingston I belive it runs at 1.8 but if you go with G.Skill is better ram and it runs at 1.8 as well.
May 19, 2008 7:15:08 PM

rfatcheric said:
I dont agree with that at all. I would rather have a 3.2ghz chip with 400FSB than a 3.2ghz chip with 333 or 300FSB by far.

If you're worried about low voltages and high ghz then yes, get a higher miltiplier. If you're looking for the best perormance OC disreguarding voltages then go for the one that gives you the hightest stable speed and fastest FSB.


Ok, that contradicts what nvalhalla said. so ur leaving me confused.

However, let's just assume that the higher FSB does in fact make it faster, would the difference be significant?


Also:


Am I correct to state that, the main cooling components to an overclocked system is: (At least price-perforamnce wise, VS those expenseive water or other coolings sytems)

1. The Case (Good ventilation system), Fans
2. CPU Heatsink, and Fan

Optional?
VGA // Video Card Fan ?


Am I missing *KEY/CRUCIAL cooling elements?
May 19, 2008 7:18:43 PM

snajper69 said:
Good point. And yeah Kingston I belive it runs at 1.8 but if you go with G.Skill is better ram and it runs at 1.8 as well.


Thanks snajper69, but i could be wrong, but I dont think that G Skills is part of the Memory Compatible list for my mobo.


Hey, I was also wondering, if I had my 2 512 MB kingston, and another 1gig stick..

Could I over clock fine? Or do i need more ram? or less?

(I'm refer to http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/240001-29-howto-overc... in the memory section)
May 19, 2008 7:25:06 PM

G. Skill will run on your MOBO without a problem. You can ask people around the forum to confirm. Its becoming very popular RAM now and more and more people start trusting them with their $. But if you don't feel comfortable and would rather stick with the approve list go for it there is nothing wrong with it.
May 19, 2008 7:25:21 PM

connect4 said:
Ok, that contradicts what nvalhalla said. so ur leaving me confused.

However, let's just assume that the higher FSB does in fact make it faster, would the difference be significant?


Also:


Am I correct to state that, the main cooling components to an overclocked system is: (At least price-perforamnce wise, VS those expenseive water or other coolings sytems)

1. The Case (Good ventilation system), Fans
2. CPU Heatsink, and Fan

Optional?
VGA // Video Card Fan ?


Am I missing *KEY/CRUCIAL cooling elements?



Good case with good air flow should be your primary concern. Antec 900 is the best for the money comes with 4 pre installed fans including one 200mm to remove the hot air. (Antec 900 case is a bit on a loud side when all funs operating on max, but is barable) Than good HSF for CPU. Air cooling is sufficient, H20 its more involved and I wouldn'r recomend any one that dose nt have quite bit of experience. GPU cooling is optional and it will depend on the GPU that you choose and the airflow in your case.
May 19, 2008 7:33:57 PM

snajper69 said:
Good case with good air flow should be your primary concern. Antec 900 is the best for the money comes with 4 pre installed fans including one 200mm to remove the hot air. (Antec 900 case is a bit on a loud side when all funs operating on max, but is barable) Than good HSF for CPU. Air cooling is sufficient, H20 its more involved and I wouldn'r recomend any one that dose nt have quite bit of experience. GPU cooling is optional and it will depend on the GPU that you choose and the airflow in your case.


I actually use the Cooler Master Centurion 5 CAC-T05-WW 1
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


Is this one any good for overclocking? Should I purchase case fans VS using the stock fans? (Theres only 2 stock fans running right now...)


My GPU is probably going to be a Radeon HD 3650
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Or one of the 8600GT 512 MB or so.

Do you think I'll need a VGA cooler for these?
May 19, 2008 10:24:00 PM

snajper69 said:
G. Skill will run on your MOBO without a problem. You can ask people around the forum to confirm. Its becoming very popular RAM now and more and more people start trusting them with their $. But if you don't feel comfortable and would rather stick with the approve list go for it there is nothing wrong with it.



Gskills was the actual memory I originally wanted but opt'd out bcuz it wasn't on the list. So now looks like they're back on.

Can I run ANY Gskills model? (As long as DDR2 800 or whatever matches...)

But Can I mix and match 2 different brands?
( Ex: 2 Kingston sticks, and 1 Gskills stick )
May 21, 2008 1:46:12 AM

Hello snajper69,

Could I run ANY Gskills model memory?

and can i mix and match 2 different brands together?
May 21, 2008 2:03:19 AM

Yes you will be able to run your g.skill without a problem, as long you pick the one with 1.8-1.9 voltage if you pick up the performance you might run with compatibility issue. Mix matching I don't recomend but if done in pair is not a problem.
!