Bleeding Edge

[modode]

A friend with a lot of cash emailed me yesterday and asked what I thought of a "bleeding edge" computer system he customized for himself on the Dell website. He had put together a XPS system with quad core Core2, 8800GTX SLI gaming system w/24" monitor that came in at around $4000. This is a guy who always goes first class, and now wants to graduate from Halo on the Xbox to Crysis on a high-end gaming rig, transitioning from an old iMac he's been surfing the net with. He wants his computer to be ultra-high performing, but also stylish and quiet.

I told him I thought I could build him something better for less money. He said great, send him the spec's (he fancies himself as knowledgeable about computers and technology). He'll be using the computer for 1. games 2. web/email 3.photo and (maybe) video editing.

I'll be overclocking whatever I build - certainly the CPU, perhaps the GPU's.

I've built lots of computers before, but I usually target the midrange sweet spot of value and performance rather than the super high-end, so I'm looking for feedback on what I've put together so far:

PC Power & Cooling PPCT860 860W ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply - Retail $269.00

Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W Processor
Item #:N82E16819115037 $194.99

Western Digital Raptor WD1500ADFD 150GB 10000 RPM SATA 1.5Gb/s Hard Drive $169.99

Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST31000340AS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive $209.99

2 X EVGA 01G-P3-N891-AR GeForce 9800 GX2 1GB (512MB per GPU) 512-bit (256-bit per GPU) GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card $999.98 ($499.99 each)

EVGA 132-CK-NF78-A1 LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 780i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard $239.99

2 X SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R DVD Burner Black SATA Model SH-S203B
Item #:N82E16827151153 $53.98 ($26.99 each)

ASUS MK241H Black 24" 2ms Widescreen LCD with 1.3M Pixel Webcam w/Speaker $539.99

Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 Speaker System
Item #:N82E16836119008 $169.99

Logitech MX Revolution Black RF Wireless Laser Mouse
Item #:N82E16826104015 $79.99

Logitech Silver & Black Gaming Keyboard
Item #:N82E16823126009 $58.99

Rosewill RCR-FD200 All-in-one USB 2.0 Black 3.5" Card Reader with 1.44MB Floppy Drive
Item #:N82E16820223072 $31.99

Tuniq Tower 120 P4 & K8 CPU Cooler
Item #:N82E16835154001 $49.00

Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound
Item #:N82E16835100007 $5.99

3 X Scythe S-FLEX 120mm SFF21E Case Fan
Item #:N82E16835185005 $44.97 ($14.99 each)

Patriot Viper 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory
Item #:N82E16820220293 $89.99

Antec P182 Gun Metal Black 0.8mm cold rolled steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate SP1 32-bit English 1pk DSP OEI DVD
Combo price for both: 319.98

Total so far: $3520.00

 

[bc4]

Well, if I was spending $3,500 on a "bleeding edge" system. It would have a quad just for the bragging rights.

Also (again, for mostly bragging rights) why not go for 64 bit windows? (throw in 8 gb ram and don't have a page file) It seems that the difference between a $2000 and $3500 system is not with the money but if he is willing to spend it.... why not.

I'll leave the rest of the hardware for someone with more knowledge in that field.

 

[aevm]

The Silencer 750W is a fabulous PSU. However, it's underpowered for two 9800GX2 cards. nVidia's certified PSUs for that are PC Power & Cooling 860W, Corsair 1000HX, Toughpower 1000W, and about 10 others I forgot now and like less than these 3.

If money is no object then the E8400 is not my first choice. The Q6700 (with overclocking to 4GHz). Get a Xigmatek HDR-S1283 cooler instead of the Tuniq Tower. It's not MUCH better than the Tuniq, nothing is, but it is better and a little cheaper.

Don't buy the old Raptor without perpendicular recording. Wait for the VelociRaptor or stick with regular drives with PMR like the WD6400AAKS. They have worse access times than the Raptor but better average read/write rates on large files, and they cost 5 times less per GB.

Make the burners different, so he can use each of them where it's better than the other. For example the PX-810SA is impressive at ripping stuff.

2.1 speakers, for a high-end system? Come on, go 5.1. Logitech Z-5500.

The P182 is a VERY nice case, but totally inappropriate IMO for SLI with two giant hot cards and a hot CPU. It doesn't have either the size or the cooling for it. You'd even lose some hard disk bays because the video cards are too big. I suggest a Silverstone TJ-09 or CoolerMaster Stacker or a Thermaltake Armor.

 

[Shadow703793]

The Silencer 750W is a fabulous PSU. However, it's underpowered for two 9800GX2 cards. nVidia's certified PSUs for that are PC Power & Cooling 860W, Corsair 1000HX, Toughpower 1000W, and about 10 others I forgot now and like less than these 3.

If money is no object then the E8400 is not my first choice. The Q6700 (with overclocking to 4GHz). Get a Xigmatek HDR-S1283 cooler instead of the Tuniq Tower. It's not MUCH better than the Tuniq, nothing is, but it is better and a little cheaper.

Don't buy the old Raptor without perpendicular recording. Wait for the VelociRaptor or stick with regular drives with PMR like the WD6400AAKS. They have worse access times than the Raptor but better average read/write rates on large files, and they cost 5 times less per GB.

Make the burners different, so he can use each of them where it's better than the other. For example the PX-810SA is impressive at ripping stuff.

2.1 speakers, for a high-end system? Come on, go 5.1. Logitech Z-5500.

The P182 is a VERY nice case, but totally inappropriate IMO for SLI with two giant hot cards and a hot CPU. It doesn't have either the size or the cooling for it. You'd even lose some hard disk bays because the video cards are too big. I suggest a Silverstone TJ-09 or CoolerMaster Stacker or a Thermaltake Armor.

^Agreed on PSU, HSF, and HDD.

 

[jivdis1x]

The system is only as fast as it's slowest components! The Hard Drive is always going to be the slowest integral part of the system. RAID! Windows XP sp3! Vista has too many annoying quicks, plus is slowest that XP. All other recommendation is very good.

 

[modode]

Thanks for the feedback.

CPU: I considered quad core, but for a gaming system it's really just for 'bragging rights,' but that probably is partially what the guy wants. I know the 8400 oc's very easily, but I've not oc'd a quad core yet and my impression is it's a little trickier? Should I easily be able to bump a q6700 up to 3.6 or so?

PSU: I will update the OP with a change to the PCP&C 860.

Case: I suspected the P182 might not have the airflow for this setup. I don't think this guy would like the silverstone or coolermaster stacker - he's coming from a Mac asthetic and will want a certain style (and low noise). What do you think of the Coolermaster Cosmos 1000? Has a 120 intake fan on the bottom, rear 120 exhaust, two 120 top exhausts, and the PSU is isolated at the bottom. Plus it's stylish and quiet. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119138

Speakers: He doesn't want surround speakers - wants it all to fit on his desk without wires and speakers draped everywhere. Klipsch is a high-end audio name he's familiar with, plus I use them so he's heard them at my place and the sound quality is excellent.

Hard drive: Maybe I'll ditch the raptor. Too noisy for my taste anyway.

 

[modode]

I'm not big on RAID 0 - the (mostly myth) of added speed is far offset by the increased complexity, cost, and failure rate imho.

BTW, I didn't go with Vista 64 b/c my research seems to indicate stability problems - the last thing I want is to build the guy a 4K computer that freezes and BSOD frequently.

Vista > XP imho b/c of DX10. The gaming performance gap is vanishing with the newer games and driver updates as well.

 

[aevm]

The Q6700 can reach 4 GHz, at least on certain mobos. Yeah, 3.6GHz shouldn't be a problem. Between E8400 and Q6700: the E8400 will be better in most current games, but in the future more games will do better on quads even at lower clocks. It depends on how long the guy will keep this CPU. If it's less than 2 years I'd get the E8400. If more, a quad.

I like that Cosmos case, sure.

True, 5.1 speakers are wasted if you don't want to drill holes in the wall behind you for the rear speakers.

 

[royalcrown]

If he's only saving 500 bucks, let him go with the Dell and get the warranty. You won't have to listen to him bitch if something breaks, or come over and fix every little thing.

 

[modode]

If he's only saving 500 bucks, let him go with the Dell and get the warranty. You won't have to listen to him bitch if something breaks, or come over and fix every little thing.

Yeah, I'm probably making him sound like an ahole when he's really not. The thing is, I think I'd have a blast building this thing, plus for 500 less he's getting a MUCH nicer computer (oc'd CPU, quad SLI, much nicer PSU/HD etc etc).

 

[San Pedro]

I find Vista 64 to be extremely stable. More stable than XP in my experience. Plus it's high end, so you'll want the extra addressable memory. 8gb with no page file sounds real nice.

 

[dragoncyber]

This is just being honest , but you need to have someone else build his machine. If he's going to spend 4000.00, dont blow it on the worthless stuff you have chosen thus far.

For example>>

Why blow 1200.00 on two 9800 GX2's, with not very refined and unstable quad SLI drivers, when the , new 9900 GTX thats coming out will be faster than a 9800GX2 for less money , so that it's in competition with the AMD cards. And later he could upgrade to triple SLI. It's just around the corner.

What in gods name makes you think you'll run that system with anything less than a 1000 watt PSU?? I'm using (2) 8800 GT in SLI and Im powering it with a 1200 Watt Thermaltake toughpower. Don't skimp on the PSU dude, it's the heart of the whole computer.

Also why would you consider a 780i board?? with DDR2... When you can go DDR3 and a 790i board that is now "Bleeding Edge as youve put it, with up to 1600mhz FSB or higher?? It's also a way better overclocker than the 680i and 780i were, I know because I've had and overclocked on all three. With the same Q6600 proc the whole time.

Why go E8400?? A Q6600 will give you 4 cores and overclock to 3.4 GHZ all day long Prime stable, with minimal voltage tweaks and still stay cool for almost the exact same money, and out perform the e8400 in multitasking.
If you really wanted a great proc go for a q9450, and really have some head room.

Forget the ripoff 200.00 Raptor drive and do raid '0' for striping performance, you could buy 3 good performing WD or Seagate drives for less money stripe them together and smack around that raptor like a little girl. There is no such thing as "mostly myth" about the speed as one other poster wrote here, TRUST ME RAID WORKS... I've done the benchmarks.

Modode Unfortunately doesn't have the experience with RAID to talk about it at all.

You also need better quality ram if you going to overclock the way you want and as I said... please do DDR3, allowing for more headroom for overclocking, and future upgrade compatibility with all the newest 1333 FSB procs coming out now.

Hey , I'll be honest. IF your , really this guys friend tell him to go elsewhere for his computer build. Besides when something goes wrong with it, which from what I'm looking at it will, you wont want the headache. Of trying to explain to him why it doesn't work.

Not trying to bash you man, but I just think you need way more experience,
Before you start handling other peoples HIGHEND "Bleeding Edge Systems".

 

[smartel7070]

For the case, have you considered the new Antec Twelve Hundred ? Great cooling and lots of space for those two monster vga cards. Here is the link at newegg http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129043&Tpk=antec+twelve and a link to a review http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,2304817,00.asp .

I'm waiting for mine to arrive any day now.

 

[modode]

Actually, I appreciate your honest feedback dragoncyber, though I do respectfully disagree with some of your opinions. I'm pretty confident I could put together a high-end set-up that he'd be more than happy with and that would provide better performance for less money than a Dell.

As avem mentioned, the PCP&C 860 is certified for this type of SLI by nvidia and has an excellent reputation, so I suspect it would do just fine.

I'm aware of the new GPU release just around the corner. I plan to mention this to my friend and encourage him to wait. The GX2 in the build list is kind of a placeholder until those come out, unless he really can't wait and wants to go with those.

My understanding is the 790i chipset had a lot of stability issues, which is why it wasn't my first choice. Simply preferred a slightly more established chipset and BIOS.

As far as RAID goes, I know it's quite controversial. Here's a quote from a classic look at RAID 0 vs. RAID 1 from anandtech for instance:

"If you haven't gotten the hint by now, we'll spell it out for you: there is no place, and no need for a RAID-0 array on a desktop computer. The real world performance increases are negligible at best and the reduction in reliability, thanks to a halving of the mean time between failure, makes RAID-0 far from worth it on the desktop."

"Bottom line: RAID-0 arrays will win you just about any benchmark, but they'll deliver virtually nothing more than that for real world desktop performance. That's just the cold hard truth."

Most people currently oc'ing their CPU's to the reasonable levels I mentioned are doing it with DDR2 800 or 1066 rather than DDR3, so it's certainly workable. I've done it without difficulty with the 8400 myself.

I'll definitely mull over everything you've said though. It's certainly possible you're right. Thanks.

 

[itheral]

In regards to dragoncybers suggestions:

1. I agree.. Don't waste money on overpriced under-performing GX2's when the GTX 280 is almost out.

2. Don't agree at all.. you could probably get by with a good 750w PSU (unless Tri-SLi is in the future), but the 860 PCP&C you have selected is a fantastic choice.

3. Yeah.. Since he wants "Bleeding Edge" a DDR3 mobo is the way to go..

4. Quad Core is definitely the better option here, which one is up to you.

5. Raid is overly complicated and doesnt perform much better than the new VelociRaptor even in the best situations.. get the VelociRaptor and be happy.

6. Again.. considering the "bleeding edge" part.. higher clocked DDR3 ram is a good choice.

 

[dragoncyber]

Well I hope something I've said helps. But please look into higher wattage PSU's. 1000 Watt minimum, you'll thank me later.

 

[evilshuriken]

I want to add my opinions on this build but, I don't think going for the absolute best(workstations might be an exception) is ever a good idea in the fast moving world of PCs, so I can't really support this. Don't do it!

Still, I hope your friend is satisfied with whatever he ends up with, would suck to spend that much cash and not be satisfied.

 

[lx_flier]

Id build him the same comp from dell with 2x 9800gtx instead and put the money to a new computer 1-2 years from now ( i would suggest 2)

 

[kad]

I told him I thought I could build him something better for less money.

If I was your friend and going to give you 4000$ to get Bleeding Edge system I would expect the following
1- PSU: 1000W
2- CPU: QX9650
3- RAM: 8G DDR2 1066
4- HDD: 1 Ter.
5- GPU: 2 of the best available (this is questionable now)
6- OS: Dual Boot XP Pro 32bit + Vista Ultimate 64 bit

Are you ready ??