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when will they get rid of all the old tech?

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August 3, 2008 4:49:09 PM

I just wonder when they will get rid of all the old technology they stuff on the motherboards these days. Generally the layouts are okay on motherboards but they aren't great. The thoughts I have is general but I will use GA-MA780GM-S2H as an example. http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2814&ProductName=GA-MA78GM-S2H

IDE: Most use SATA (whichever version) these days, and having it for opticals is redundant, opticals come with sata now too and I would say most of them come with sata. The old cabling is huge and ruins airflow and tidyness inside the case.

Parallel/Serial ports: Those should have died many years ago. USB for the way.

Floppy: I can't recall when I last used a floppydisk but still I have a floppy drive in my pc. Why I even bothered to put it in, is still something I wonder about, but one thing is for sure, I wont put a floppy in my next build.

Chipset coolers: They are usually blocked important slots, preventing the use of longer cards and if they aren't blocking the slots then they have ultra low profile coolers on and gets very hot, so the cards you do put over them will get very hot too. A solution here would be to put them where you most often don't have very long cards, so away from the PCIe X16 and X1 (usually only 1 of these on a mATX board).

They should generally be big and tall so we don't have annoying little 40mm fans that begin to be noisy after 2-3 months of use and so the chipsets doesn't get too hot. Good case flow is expected.

A solution for the southbridge could be a heatpipe up to the northbridge which has more room for a large cooler.

Power connector: The power connecter (24pin) should be placed near the cpu and not down where the floppy power is (on the gigabyte board). and then all the sata slots should be moved up in that area where ide/floppy/power connecter was removed from.

Additional connectors: Many additional connectors are found on motherboards for extra usb or firewire connections should be placed at the bottom so they don't block the lowest pci slots.

Major issues with the gigabyte board are these (and most other boards share these issues):

A. Using a doublewide X16 card will block several of the sata ports (up to 3).
B. Using a X1 soundcard or tvcard will block the northbridge cooler and cause heat issues.

So what can be done to improve things?
Why do we keep this ancient technology that most people hardly ever use?

More about : rid tech

August 3, 2008 5:11:08 PM

its hard to remove because most corporate people still use these.... imagine having 100pcs ide on stock.. for more than 200 workstations in your office. its not easy upgrading corporate computers

with multinational offices with billion dollar programs.. even some huge companies still use Windows 2000 as primary OS
a b V Motherboard
August 3, 2008 5:19:10 PM

Alot of the ide todays boards is emulated through the sata bus. And many boards no longer come with a floppy connector. it's happening but really there is no good reason to rush it, i'm glad they're giving time for everyone to upgrade their parts casually.
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August 3, 2008 5:39:36 PM

IDE: There are still a LOT of IDE drives around. People don't just throw them away and buy SATA. Also, IDE cables do have some advantages. They are flat so they can be easily ran under your motherboard for cleaner cabling. They are also more flexible so they can be folded for better cabling. Also, many people complain that SATA cables don't connect securely to the drives. That's not a problem on IDE. Besides, they are going out, slowly. Most manufacturers only include 1 IDE port anymore. New Dells and HPs have gone exclusively SATA.

Parallel/Serial ports: I agree, not in a gamer's board. However, there are still plenty of commercial/business application for these ports. A lot of equipment still in production use these types of connections. It's too expensive to upgrade everything, so there is still a demand for motherboards with serial/parallel. I don't know what you're complaining about. Look at any of the popular motherboards and you'll see the parallel/serial ports are already gone.

Floppy: HP and Dell no longer ship PCs with floppy drives. Some manufacturers are shipping motherboards without a floppy port. There is still somewhat of a demand in the enthusiast market and floppy drives are often needed to update your BIOS.

Chipset cooler: I think you're not looking very hard. There are plenty of boards out there that don't have the problems you described, and even include the heatpipe on the southbridge. You chose a micro atx board, anyway. Of course the components are going to be crammed on there.

Power connector: A lot of cases now have bottom-mounted power supplies. It would be a bad idea to move the power port to the top. In the middle it's more compatible.

SATA connectors: I agree, they don't always place them in good spots. That's why I typically look for boards which have the right-angle SATA connectors.

I think you just haven't been looking. Check out most enthusiast boards and a lot of these problems have already been addressed. You also have to consider the market each board is targeting.
August 3, 2008 6:05:25 PM

I recently built a computer for farmer and he needed serial for his computerto plug in his combine computer.

I also recently built 2 office computers that had parallel printers.
August 3, 2008 6:09:55 PM

A lot of people still used legacy components, recently built one for a client that needed a serial port.
a b V Motherboard
August 3, 2008 6:12:31 PM

Godiwa said:
Why do we keep this ancient technology that most people hardly ever use?


Maybe because counter to your thinking, not everyone is like you .

I just built a new system with e8400 computer and DS3L mobo.

I need the IDE connectors because I choose to install a tape drive for regular backups and don't want to be burning a new disk every day but do want copies to take offsite. They do not make reasonably priced tape drives with SATA connectors for desktops,

I need the parallel port because I still use a great HP 6MP laser printer and prefer not to be forced to purchase a new one when this one works fine.

I still use floppies for quick backup and having mobile copies of serveral work products with relatively small files. They are cheap and convenient.

I am glad not all the vendors are deserting the "old" technology. Its a shame more don't build products to last and then provide support for a longer life - like MS dumping XP support. Forced obsolescence is often not in the consumers best interest.
August 3, 2008 6:12:42 PM

Quote:
A solution for the southbridge could be a heatpipe up to the northbridge which has more room for a large cooler


Quote:
SATA connectors: I agree, they don't always place them in good spots. That's why I typically look for boards which have the right-angle SATA connectors.



obviously you havent seen my board , very well layed out and meets most of your requirements.





August 3, 2008 6:12:57 PM

dunno, I want a small and modern one but most of them seem to include lots of ancient tech on them.

my printers have used usb for years and the newest one which is 2-3 years even support network and wireless.

those few that still need some "legacy" stuff can get that via usb converters thus saving precious pcb space
August 3, 2008 6:19:34 PM

samuraiblade thats a very nice board and if I was building an extreme gaming rig I would go for something like that, they put a lot of thought into it.

some coling like that could have been possible on a mATK as well, very impressive

I am pondering on a build use for multiple purposes but the plan is to hook it up to a 40" hdtv (blu ray etc.) but also possibly upgrade it to a gaming station, hence the 2slot X16 card which there is room for in this case and the case is small but with quite decent airflow, but I do need that the mobo doesn't create further heat problems by halfhearted cooling solutions
August 3, 2008 6:20:04 PM

Put simply when demand for "old tech" ends so will "old tech".
The ATX design Specs are the reason for most of the location options of components.
Most factories are setup to make ATX spec boards.
The AT to ATX transition took years, no one uses BTX, and the next great thing will be years in transition too.
a b V Motherboard
August 3, 2008 6:21:03 PM

Nice of Samuraible to decide that his needs come first and that we should pay for an expensive add-in card rather than have inexpensive components added to the board.

Its also simple economics that it is often cheaper for a manufacturer to make one model with a few components that only some users need than to make severl different models that address only the specific requirements of a smaller group of users. They save on engineering, tooling, longer production runs, and fewer items with smaller numbers to inventory.

Gee, come to think of it they do have boards already set up without the old technology. They just cots more. Is that what you are whining about Samuraible?
August 3, 2008 6:21:49 PM

Quote:
B. Using a X1 soundcard or tvcard will block the northbridge cooler and cause heat issues


p.s you know that a pci-e x1 card doesnt have to go in the x1 slot , my asus xonar is in the bottom most slot on that motherboard which is a x4. it will automatically run it at the speed required.
August 3, 2008 6:28:18 PM

samuraiblade I know this, but at the board I found with the most interesting chipset for my needs only have 1 and it is located at the top.

I am looking for other makers that use the same chipset but they are all worse then the gigabyte one as none of them come with esata and such
August 3, 2008 6:33:55 PM

so your looking for an AM2 board thats compact but has AMD 780G Chipset
onboard graphics and 'new tech' on it like esata , pci-e slots and good passive cooling?
August 3, 2008 6:37:13 PM

correct, would be nice if they started to use the sb750 instead og the sb700 sb but it's not even out yet

many goes the intel way and so have I for ages but I seek a system with lower power usage and runs cooler but still with the option to slap on a massive gfx like the 4870 should I want to play again but primary goal is less power/less heat :)  hope that makes sense
August 3, 2008 6:42:02 PM

very interesting mobo there samurai, but inferior in chipset.

nice placement of the northbridge though, sucky place for the X1 slot since it will be blocked by the gfx if I put one in

excellent place for the sata ports though and the same with the extra usb pins and so on

maybe I should see if abit makes a 780g mobo
August 3, 2008 6:50:23 PM

actually found this one at abit now you mentioned them: http://www.abit.com.tw/page/no/motherboard/motherboard_...

I will have to look up some reviews of it but it looks promising, it will 100% guaranteed need a soundcard since the build in is bleeh (but will have to check it more in detail how good/bad it is)

and the no esata can be cured with a backplate running from the internal satas
August 3, 2008 6:55:26 PM

aye looks good , they placed the sata ports well too so they dont get blocked , hopefully this is the solution your looking for
August 3, 2008 7:05:18 PM

just weird they didn't utilize the the backplane more then they have, it seems a bit lacking compared to the other boards
August 3, 2008 7:35:38 PM

First let me say that
Quote:
the old cabling is huge and ruins airflow
is myth and has never been proven. The only way they can affect air flow is if you were to lay one right over a fan.

If SATA would ever be fully implemented you would say the old SATA is untidy inside the case. SATA designs greatest advantage was daisy chaining several drives together. This is why everyone wanted SATA over PATA as PATA can handle any single HD drives though put today.

The only type of drive I would want SATA for is SSD. If daisy chaining were to see light of day from SATA I would love it because Unlike todays SATA 1 cable using PATA can address 2 drives.
August 3, 2008 8:22:13 PM

rockyjohn said:

I still use floppies for quick backup and having mobile copies of serveral work products with relatively small files. They are cheap and convenient.


Heesh, I have 600gb of data to keep backed up, I'd hate to do that with floppies. I'd get a usb pen drive if I was you, much more reliable and cheap too :kaola: 
August 3, 2008 8:41:13 PM

I also think that you are looking at this for a single user view point. Anyone that works on Cisco equipment or is studying for certification at home will definitely want a serial port.

Before someone says get a USB to serial adapter, half of them do not follow the standard completely. Some companies selling them have had to start advertizing guaranteed compatibility because of bad press.

We recently bought brand new graphics tablet white boards, the million hot point kind that are 5 feet across and ceiling mount projectors. Guess what; serial input only basically because you can still have 100 foot serial cables to run through the walls is what the company said. There is an new model coming some time with Ethernet for a much higher price

The systems have Asus motherboards with no serial ports, 3 brands of converters later all claiming compatibility we found one that worked. Would have been simpler to use a PCI card in hindsight but the problem would still exist for the occasional laptop needing to be hooked up.

You would be amazed at how much expensive irreplaceable equipment requires a serial port. I assume that is the reason why many motherboard models have put one port back on, either with a berg connector buried on the board or the connector on the back again.

In the drive market some stores still charge a premium for SATA optical drives so you save a few bucks buying IDE. The cheap micro boards limit the number or SATA connectors anyway and if you want RAID none of them seem to have enough to give up one of a burner if you also want e-SATA.

As long as the chipsets support them and new legacy port products continue to be sold, I am all for leaving the connectors on. While I am caring less and less about IDE unless I have to replace a motherboard, I would never buy one without a serial port for my personal use.
a b V Motherboard
August 4, 2008 8:22:27 PM

rtfm said:
Heesh, I have 600gb of data to keep backed up, I'd hate to do that with floppies. I'd get a usb pen drive if I was you, much more reliable and cheap too :kaola: 


One more attempt to try to tell others what they should be doing without having a real knowledge of what they are doing. Again just assuming everyone's needs are like theirs. Just proves my point.

And totally misleading. I never suggested using floppies to back up an entire system of any size much less 600 gb. So he is trying to disprove my statement with a false, misleading case.

And I have USB drives that I use when needed. However, using floppies is much cheaper for having multiple copies of multiple files. And easier to label and flip through to find the right one.

I sure hope you don't work for a design firm - or in any marketing position. Trying to find someone else's requirements would elude you terribly. You would just be telling the customer what he should buy without any regard for his needs or requirements.
August 4, 2008 9:20:27 PM

rockyjohn said:
One more attempt to try to tell others what they should be doing without having a real knowledge of what they are doing. Again just assuming everyone's needs are like theirs. Just proves my point.

And totally misleading. I never suggested using floppies to back up an entire system of any size much less 600 gb. So he is trying to disprove my statement with a false, misleading case.

And I have USB drives that I use when needed. However, using floppies is much cheaper for having multiple copies of multiple files. And easier to label and flip through to find the right one.

I sure hope you don't work for a design firm - or in any marketing position. Trying to find someone else's requirements would elude you terribly. You would just be telling the customer what he should buy without any regard for his needs or requirements.


Hey, calm down, I was just being flippant :sarcastic:  .You can do whatever you like, it's your data. From my personal experience of backing up to floppies, it was a nightmare, flakey disks and slooow. If that's for you, great, I'd rather use cds, cheaper and more durable.

As for your last paragraph, that's you making assumptions without any knowledge of my qualifications or abilities :kaola: 
a b V Motherboard
August 4, 2008 9:43:01 PM

rtfm said:
Hey, calm down, I was just being flippant :sarcastic:  .You can do whatever you like, it's your data. From my personal experience of backing up to floppies, it was a nightmare, flakey disks and slooow. If that's for you, great, I'd rather use cds, cheaper and more durable.

As for your last paragraph, that's you making assumptions without any knowledge of my qualifications or abilities :kaola: 


1. I am perfectly calm. One again you are making bogus assumptions and jumping to a faulty conclusion.

2. If CD's better meet your needs fine. In the post before you recommended flash drives as the alternative. Go figure.

3. As to "you making assumptions without any knowledge of my qualifications or abilities", to say that I do not have "any" knowledge is simply not true - I had your previous statement where you first threw out a misleading "stalking horse" argument then told me what I should do. You were clearly dictating what I needed without knowing my requirements - which was the point I made. You only reinforced the accuracy of my comment by jumping to another conclusion and faulty assessment here.
August 4, 2008 11:03:07 PM

John,
Considering this thread is about a hypothetical situation, no one is assuming anything about anyone's needs. I don't see why you're taking it so personally and attacking someone who was only making a joke.
August 5, 2008 2:51:03 AM

actually when I look through this thread now, most say they need legacy ports when it is related to "work machines" not to their home machines, game machines and htpc machines and most of the motherboards you see is not what I call typical "work machines".

there are motherboards for different needs and yes there is reason for ancient tech on work machines, but why put it on boards clearly aimed as an enthusiast gamer board or a htpc board? (I guess I modified my original question a little)

I know work machines are old and ancient in most cases runing Win2000 and NT and what not, but most home users would use Vista these days or in some cases XP but it is a dying thing for the home user, even from MS's side. Many new mobos don't even support XP anymore.

PC's have held itself back a LOT by backwards compatibility, some of it good but a lot of it bad. Who knows what kind of computers we would have today had they not been forced to support 10-20 year old stuff in the new computers because companies force them to it? 16bit to 32bit? 32bit to 64bit? Noone will ever have the need for more then 640kb ram *grins*
August 5, 2008 3:23:30 AM

Godiwa said:
actually when I look through this thread now, most say they need legacy ports when it is related to "work machines" not to their home machines, game machines and htpc machines and most of the motherboards you see is not what I call typical "work machines".

there are motherboards for different needs and yes there is reason for ancient tech on work machines, but why put it on boards clearly aimed as an enthusiast gamer board or a htpc board? (I guess I modified my original question a little)

I know work machines are old and ancient in most cases runing Win2000 and NT and what not, but most home users would use Vista these days or in some cases XP but it is a dying thing for the home user, even from MS's side. Many new mobos don't even support XP anymore.

PC's have held itself back a LOT by backwards compatibility, some of it good but a lot of it bad. Who knows what kind of computers we would have today had they not been forced to support 10-20 year old stuff in the new computers because companies force them to it? 16bit to 32bit? 32bit to 64bit? Noone will ever have the need for more then 640kb ram *grins*


In another thread someone was whinging that a MB had specs for com and lpt headers, but the board came without the slot plates for them. Go figure, just no pleasing some people I guess...

The point is that there are MB's out there that would more fulfill your childish needs, so go find one. While you are at it, besides not needing com or lpt ports, you don't really need ps2 ports either, do you? Or a vga port? IDE headers can go as well, right?

Just think how 'sleek and modern' your new MB will look without all that 'ancient technology' on it. Then you can run your PC back to front to prove how 'cool' you are... Kind of like your baseball cap.
a b V Motherboard
August 5, 2008 3:37:55 AM

qwertycopter said:
John,
Considering this thread is about a hypothetical situation, no one is assuming anything about anyone's needs. I don't see why you're taking it so personally and attacking someone who was only making a joke.


I am very surprised you are now accusing me of attacking others.

This started with my post - very on point - about the my specific need for the vintage devices and pointed out that boards need to be made for all users.

Mr. RTFM responded - he later admited - in a flippant manner and, in direct contradiction of your statement above that "no one is assuming anything about anyonels needs" - he told me that he would use a usb flash drive if he were me - supplanting his opinion of what works best in my situation over mine.

I pointed out that his claim - to know best what I need - was the very problem I talked about first. I also correctly pointed out that he was also using a misleading argument to attack my statements.

He responded again in a flippant manner telling me to "calm down" - another arrogant and patronizing responese.

I think I have objectively addressed the issue and defended myself from his flippant and patronizing remarks. I don't have any idea why you now join him in attacking me as taking it personally and attacking him.
August 5, 2008 5:47:43 AM

rockyjohn said:
1. I am perfectly calm. One again you are making bogus assumptions and jumping to a faulty conclusion.

2. If CD's better meet your needs fine. In the post before you recommended flash drives as the alternative. Go figure.

3. As to "you making assumptions without any knowledge of my qualifications or abilities", to say that I do not have "any" knowledge is simply not true - I had your previous statement where you first threw out a misleading "stalking horse" argument then told me what I should do. You were clearly dictating what I needed without knowing my requirements - which was the point I made. You only reinforced the accuracy of my comment by jumping to another conclusion and faulty assessment here.


1 You don't sound very calm, in fact looking back at the other posts in this thread, you seem like the most agressive person to have posted.

2 CDs DON'T meet my needs, but are preferable to me as an alternative to floppies.

3 I think you have "issues" that are best discussed with somebody more qualified than me.

Not everything in life is a personal attack on you, people are allowed oppossing opinions and differing ideas, just because those ideas and opinions don't match yours it doesn't mean you should take it as a personal insult.
August 5, 2008 9:33:08 AM

^+1 bro
August 5, 2008 12:29:52 PM

rockyjohn said:
I think I have objectively addressed the issue and defended myself from his flippant and patronizing remarks. I don't have any idea why you now join him in attacking me as taking it personally and attacking him.

You're taking this extremely seriously, unusually so... this is a light-hearted discussion. I don't see why you're swinging a torch at everyone with your heated, jaded, vehement comments. The only explanation I can come up with is that you are somehow taking it personally. I don't see how such lengthy, detailed, angry responses such as yours could be produced otherwise. They sound like rants. Personally, I don't see anything above that qualifies as provocation and for the life of me how you can't see the light-heartedness of this statement:

"Heesh, I have 600gb of data to keep backed up, I'd hate to do that with floppies. I'd get a usb pen drive if I was you, much more reliable and cheap too :kaola: "

He's saying what he'd do in that situation. Is he not entitled to his own opinion?
August 5, 2008 11:53:30 PM

Godiwa said:


Parallel/Serial ports: Those should have died many years ago. USB for the way.

So what can be done to improve things?
Why do we keep this ancient technology that most people hardly ever use?


As for the serial port, there are still lots of things that connect to it especially for commercial use. At work I have a number of systems that I connect my laptop up to make adjustments and take various readings with.

At home, I have my whole house connected to the serial port of my desktop. I can adjust my heating/cooling and set a schedule to automatically adjust my water heater temperature. I also have relays connected to specific light circuits so that I know if I left the garage lights on and I have current sensors to tell me if the outside security lights are working. I have micro switches to let me know if I left a garage door open. I control my lawn sprinkler system and I can automatically open the dog door to let the dogs out. There are countless other possibilities that I haven’t even tried yet, but the whole system interfaces through the serial port of my computer.

I imagine that someday my controller will die and a new controller will have to take its place. It might use USB or something else to interface with, but for right now the serial port works great and I'm not about to spend the money to replace my system.

Some things just last forever!


a b V Motherboard
August 6, 2008 4:54:13 AM

1781457,35,76041 said:
I don't see why you're swinging a torch at everyone with your heated, jaded, vehement comments.... . I don't see how such lengthy, detailed, angry responses such as yours could be produced otherwise. They sound like rants.
said:


You have grossly mischaracterized my responses. In response to his admittedly flippant comments followed by his patronizing ones, I have remained calm the entire time. I have made long responses because I was being specific and, except when defending my self from attack, was always focusing on the issue of understanding and accepting others requirements - which he repeatedly refused to accept or recognize - stating why his approach was better than mine. Not just that it was the way he would do it - but that it was better than mine. Again - the point is not acknowledging the others requirements.

You may again attack this post as being angry and ranting but I have calmy defended myself against your attacks. Your are the one ranting and attacking - not me.
a b V Motherboard
August 6, 2008 5:01:06 AM

rtfm said:


3 I think you have "issues" that are best discussed with somebody more qualified than me.

Not everything in life is a personal attack on you, people are allowed oppossing opinions and differing ideas, just because those ideas and opinions don't match yours it doesn't mean you should take it as a personal insult.


And I suppose your statement that I have "issues" is not a personal attack? Just another example of how you attack and then when I defend myself you accuse me of being the attacker.
August 6, 2008 5:21:25 AM

@mod, this thread should be closed.
August 6, 2008 8:16:14 PM

rockyjohn said:
And I suppose your statement that I have "issues" is not a personal attack? Just another example of how you attack and then when I defend myself you accuse me of being the attacker.


No, that was a genuine observation about your ranting. I do believe you have "issues." Either that or you just want an argument. Either way, this discussion has gotten pointless
August 6, 2008 8:17:56 PM

come on folks just keep it clean from all this personal stuff
August 6, 2008 10:24:53 PM

I still use an IDE CD writer,and have a couple of drives which use IDE..but my main drive uses SATA....Why should IDE slots just go away? Personally,I'm not seeing reduction in air flow because of a couple of prongs coming out of my motherboard,if it's not being used.
!