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should i wait for nehalem?

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July 13, 2008 8:57:03 AM

I have an old system AMD 939 socket system with 2500+ venice, radeon x800xl, with 2gig OCZ (2-2-2-5). I was thinking about building a new intel LGA 775 system (probably Q6600). Or should I wait for the nehalem cpu? Even if I do wait for it, when will the price of nehalem cpu will be down to a reasonable range (for me, around ~$250)?

More about : wait nehalem

July 13, 2008 9:03:35 AM

Phenom and nehalem is very similar. nehalem for consumers is probably more than one year away
a c 159 à CPUs
July 13, 2008 9:07:18 AM

If your setup runs ok, then stick with it. It's hard to say when nehalem will become affordable. I waited over one year for socket 939 prices to drop before getting a board and cpu. I would focus more on the sweet spot for video cards. Any number of cpus will run the current crop of games fine.
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July 13, 2008 9:11:59 AM

kassler said:
Phenom and nehalem is very similar. nehalem for consumers is probably more than one year away


phenom and nehalem similar how? because of the Quickpath and hypertransport???

as for the OP: since nehalem is a new architecture overall, price mark ups are sure to occur. i agree that it won't be awhile until nehalem cpu's are affordable to most people.

if you are good with your setup now, then keep it.

if you want to upgrade for gaming reasons and such, a moderate price LGA775 systems would be a good choice (roughly 600-800$) if you want an upgrade to last until the affordable nehalems come.
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July 13, 2008 9:13:31 AM

I wouldn't wait. prices on core 2 products are getting dirt low. and as o1die said nehalem will be very expensive at first. not only will the chips cost money but ddr3 and you can be sure that the first x58 boards will not be cheap. nehalem is said to be about a 11% performance boost per clock which is not alot IMO.

A decent core 2 will last you till the next iteration of nehalem when performance gains will be much better and the prices more reasonable.
July 13, 2008 9:15:03 AM

In computerland you can wait forever, because there's always something new on the horizon.

The only time I wait is when a new release of something is very near (a few weeks), like ATI's latest 4800 graphics card generation.
July 13, 2008 9:26:28 AM

i forgot to ask, with the release of nehalem, will the price of cores such as Q9450 readily drop? or will that also take awhile?
July 13, 2008 9:36:04 AM

eylee86 said:
i forgot to ask, with the release of nehalem, will the price of cores such as Q9450 readily drop? or will that also take awhile?


Most likely, some of the old models will be axed to make way for new ones, while the high-end old models will get discounted and become more mainstream.

But if it's the Q9450 you're interested in in particular, that's scheduled to be dropped with the thrid quarter price drops this year, with the Q9550 being marked down to it's previous price level and the Q9400 introduced as a cheaper alternative.

Here's some detail of what's in store in a few week's time:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1898
July 13, 2008 9:56:25 AM

aznguy0028 said:
phenom and nehalem similar how? because of the Quickpath and hypertransport???

It would be easier to tell what differs, please do
July 13, 2008 10:36:12 AM

kassler said:
It would be easier to tell what differs, please do

performance? since we know phenom is less than core 2, and nehalem isn't going to be less than core 2....
July 13, 2008 11:01:32 AM

spuddyt said:
performance? since we know phenom is less than core 2, and nehalem isn't going to be less than core 2....

Nehalem isn't going to beat Core 2 on single threaded applications that don't use a lot of memory. Core 2 is designed for single threaded applications.

You have seen reviews with Nehalem that has a higher clock then phenom, also more L3 cache. Denem (phenom 45 nm) is out soon, compare to that and you will hard to know wich is faster
July 13, 2008 12:28:21 PM

OP, have you explored the possibility in adding to your current rig. Eg that GPU is fairly past it and I have just seen some AGP versions of the 3850 floating around at a very reasonable price. Also a used X2 Opteron could make a world of difference for a very reasonable price. But you would also probably be looking at BIOS and PSU upgrades as well.

If you want to replace the whole kit and kaboodle, Deneb as kassler has put forward as some enticing arguments. One it is new 45nm tech and is expected to clock better than current Phenom. Planned in at least 3 flavours, X2, X3 & X4 so priced for all market segments. Tauted to run on both AM2+ and AM3 mobos with DDR2/3 respectively. Of course none of this is cast in iron.

Comparatively socket 775 will end with Nehalem. So at this late stage you will experience socket 939 all over again. If (Nehalem) it is the speed daemon that early testers are suggesting, then you can bet it will be pricey. Probably looking at 12 months away for desktop availability at the outset and all going well.

Another interim jump you could consider is by using AsRock's Dual setup for C2D or quad, very cheap on ebay. On to that platform you can carry an AGP card and then upgrade to PCIe card, (but board has only 4 X PCIe slot) so fast cards drop a bit of umph. From there you shold be able to spring comfortably to either platform and all the while get some reasonable performance happening. The mobo also supports the 6600 quad, but won't go beyond 1066FSB.

Also you can carry the DDR 400/333/266 RAM and later upgrade to DDR2 modules 2 of each type of RAM are supported on this board. Biggest down side with this setup was that I experienced some issues with stability in games between C2D & Via chipset. However that's the platform I used to ween myself off the 939 without tossing out everything in one swoop.

In the end the choice is yours. Goodluck.
July 13, 2008 12:31:53 PM

Quote:
I have an old system AMD 939 socket system with 2500+ venice, radeon x800xl, with 2gig OCZ (2-2-2-5). I was thinking about building a new intel LGA 775 system (probably Q6600). Or should I wait for the nehalem cpu? Even if I do wait for it, when will the price of nehalem cpu will be down to a reasonable range (for me, around ~$250)?


The question is why do You want a new sytem?
I was strongly considering building new system myself couple of weeks ago, but after a bit of thinking I realized that my current Pc is doing all I want and I can wait for a new build a year or even two or 3.

The main specs of the system I have now is
Athlon X2 4200+ a little overclocked to 2.42GHz
4GB Ram
8800GTX
And I was going to get P35/P45 motherboard
Q9450
8 GB RAM
HD 4870

I have built similar system to my friend just two days ago and it is amazing fast system and CPU overclocked easily to 3.4 GHz from 2.66 and it is damn fast. But it does not metter if he gets 80-100 fps 1680x1050 in the same game where I get 30-40 fps 1280x1024 with the same settings. Important is that my PC is doing what I want and 30-40 fps is totally playable so I don't need new one just for bragging rights that I am getting 100 fps or a high 3dmark score.
So it is up to You to decide if You need new one or if Your old one is sufficient for Your needs. If You are not happy with old Pc's perfomance then get a new one now. There is no need to wait, it is not like nehalem is coming out in 2 weeks. And when it comes out there will be something new to come out .

It is a long post, but I just want to help someone to make right decission. To sum it up- If Your pc does what You want - don't build new, if it does not - get a new one , there is no need to wait unless there is something that You want coming out in next two weeks or if You are expecting noticable price drop in next two weeks on something You want.
July 13, 2008 1:13:48 PM

With anything regarding technology, the longer you can wait, the better you will get for the same price, be it a toaster, computer or camera. Having said that waiting for Nehalem is worth it, not to get a Nehalem but to watch other cpu prices drop. I already have a QX9650 but if I was waiting, I'd be looking at a QX chip because the unlocked multi and a reliable set of components will either match or beat the 4 core Nehalem. If you've read the review and the other Nehalem threads, you'll realise this isn't the big landmark everyone's making it out to be. The 8 core Nehalem on a dual socket board on the other hand.........
July 13, 2008 1:55:17 PM

I think that a new C2D or especially a C2Q will be reasonably competitive for at least 1.5 -2.0 years due based on some of the early benches. Intel has said they are moving into multithreading/multicore to increase performance rather than MHZs so current quads are especially appealing if you are considering an upgrade now. Nehalem will have a premium and the new MB and memory will also cost more for a while after release so the question is how long do you plan to wait and what is your budget. I agree with the prior posts in that I wouldn't pair the new 3850agp with that 3500 Venice plus you may also need a new PSU. I think it will seriously bottle neck the 3850's performance. If you are going to wait find a s939 X2 or OPTy cpu and OC it. You will notice a big increase in performance but no where near a C2D/Q improvement. I can hardly stand to wait on my FX60 @ 2,94ghz system after being on my Q6600 at 3.4ghz.
a c 159 à CPUs
July 13, 2008 2:22:21 PM

You're lucky your 939 system is still running strong. If you can't wait, I would sell your board, cpu, and memory on ebay and see what you get for them before planning your upgrade. I found my compaq pc at Fry's for $199 on their anniversary sale. Newegg sells the same system for $349, so I knew it was too good a deal to pass up; cheaper than I could build it for myself. Upgraded the video and power supply with old leftover parts, and the cpu/heatsink for only $75. If you get a board with limiting overclocking options, use the "pin mod" trick for overclocking. It's the most stable overclock I've ever used.
a b à CPUs
July 13, 2008 2:58:19 PM

Just my 2 Cents;
If you wait for Price drop on current procs you might save 100 - 200 dollars Depending on what you opt for. My self I'ld propably wait and spring for a Q9450. Then in about 3 yrs MAYBE going for a nehalem system, and then only if overall performance is 30% or better.

Bear in mind the CPU is only one part of the equation. Games, in most cases - not all, are more a function of the GPU. The bottleneck for most systems when it comes to everyday apps is more a function of HHD performance with the exception of high end video encoding. You can only type so fast, Internet will not be much effected, DVD writes will be the same. Boot times will only be marginally effect (More a function of HDD (Windows 7 unknown)

Bottem line - If you want a new system and don't mind an extra $150 Cost: do it now. If you can wait till closer to the end of the year and get the best you can afford. If you overclock get Intel, if not flip a coin. Me I'ld still get a Intel.
July 13, 2008 3:01:05 PM

don't wait for nehalem just stick to it if it runs fine if not upgade to a quad to future proof your system
July 14, 2008 2:04:44 PM

Also having the latest is exciting but it doesn't come easy most of the time. You have to remember Nehalem will be revolving around the X58 chipset and a new northbridge so I'm betting minimum 6 months before everything settles and becomes stable. Anyone with experience knows you don't buy an OS until you see the first service pack and you don't buy technology software can't use, so there's a basic guide to help you make your mind up. Also from your initial post:

"Even if I do wait for it, when will the price of nehalem cpu will be down to a reasonable range (for me, around ~$250)? "

I'm betting Nehalem will be $250 in about 2010....maybe.
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July 14, 2008 3:46:37 PM

kassler said:
Nehalem isn't going to beat Core 2 on single threaded applications that don't use a lot of memory. Core 2 is designed for single threaded applications.

You have seen reviews with Nehalem that has a higher clock then phenom, also more L3 cache. Denem (phenom 45 nm) is out soon, compare to that and you will hard to know wich is faster


Actually, it should beat core 2 on single threaded and multi threaded, but the margin of victory will be much greater on multi threaded.

As for Phenom, the architcture is not as fast per clock cycle as Nehalem, it will not clock as high, likely even at 45nm (we'll see though), and in heavy multitasking or multithreaded apps, it will be left even farther behind due to the SMT.

Basically, Nehalem = what phenom should have been, but failed to achieve.
July 14, 2008 6:16:14 PM

eylee86 said:
I have an old system AMD 939 socket system with 2500+ venice, radeon x800xl, with 2gig OCZ (2-2-2-5). I was thinking about building a new intel LGA 775 system (probably Q6600). Or should I wait for the nehalem cpu? Even if I do wait for it, when will the price of nehalem cpu will be down to a reasonable range (for me, around ~$250)?


You could go budget with a good AM2+ board and a 95 watt Phenom B3, then see how much Deneb loses to Nehalem before deciding whether you want to transition to Intel. If you go Q6600 now, it will be a great system but Nehalem will require a new socket.

If you go AMD now, you won't have Intel's first quad level of performance but it won't be far behind Q6600 stock, and that AM2+ board should support Deneb.


August 4, 2008 4:23:38 AM

RetiredChief said:
Just my 2 Cents;
If you wait for Price drop on current procs you might save 100 - 200 dollars Depending on what you opt for. My self I'ld propably wait and spring for a Q9450. Then in about 3 yrs MAYBE going for a nehalem system, and then only if overall performance is 30% or better.

Bear in mind the CPU is only one part of the equation. Games, in most cases - not all, are more a function of the GPU. The bottleneck for most systems when it comes to everyday apps is more a function of HHD performance with the exception of high end video encoding. You can only type so fast, Internet will not be much effected, DVD writes will be the same. Boot times will only be marginally effect (More a function of HDD (Windows 7 unknown)

Bottem line - If you want a new system and don't mind an extra $150 Cost: do it now. If you can wait till closer to the end of the year and get the best you can afford. If you overclock get Intel, if not flip a coin. Me I'ld still get a Intel.



I was thinking of upgrading my gaming system: I was looking at the ATI HD4850 and I was wondering if I should go to E8500 or Q9450? I'm not an overclocker.
August 4, 2008 4:39:50 AM

if you're not overclocking, i think you should get Q9450. It's on sale for $280 at microcenter.com right now.
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August 4, 2008 6:53:32 PM

mikeny

Ref Q9450
Alot depends on how long you plan on keeping the system. As you know, the GPU is more important for a "Gaming" system. Myself, I'd probably go with a Q6600 and save the $90 to $100 - Put that toward an upgrade to a 4870 GPU. This should last for two - 3 yrs When next generation MB/Procs come down out of the statasphere Just kidding

Dual vs Quad
Points to consider:
1) Currently the E8400 is only about $15 dollars cheaper than the Q6600.
2) Currently @ stock the E8400 will beat the Q6600 for games. BUT will this be true 1 to 3 yrs from now - probably Not (Just a quess.

Two side comments;
In either case, get a better HSF. A large % of people have no problems with the stock cooler, But enough do. Myself I much prefer a HSF that has a backing plate.

I respect your "Not an overclocker". I've built all my computers since my first, a Standard 386sx. This was my first attempt at overclocking (system in more info). It was very easy and I had not a single problem. IF (and that's a big IF) Pick a processor with a Multiplier of 8 (can be higher as you can knock it down to 8) and use DDR2 6400. This will give you an easy overclock to 3.2 THIS way a year from now if you feel you want to modestly OC - your good to go.
August 4, 2008 11:09:52 PM

Thanx Chief.

I heard the Q6300-6600 were getting discontinued. I was doing some research and the E8500 is $189, Q6600 is $194 and the Q9300 is $270. I don't mind spending extra to get the 4870. Which combo would benefit one another (cpu/gpu)? Regardless of price. I have FSX and I plan to go back to MMORPG soon (when Star Trek Online and APB are released).

From what I learned, it will be a whiel before Nehalem prices will be low and available. I see prices have fallen dramtically since I built my system. My RAM went from $150 to $40 kits each. My x1900xtx was close to $400 and I see the 4850 is only a little below $200 (in Microcenter).
a c 117 à CPUs
August 5, 2008 12:08:15 AM

mikeny said:
Thanx Chief.

I heard the Q6300-6600 were getting discontinued. I was doing some research and the E8500 is $189, Q6600 is $194 and the Q9300 is $270. I don't mind spending extra to get the 4870. Which combo would benefit one another (cpu/gpu)? Regardless of price. I have FSX and I plan to go back to MMORPG soon (when Star Trek Online and APB are released).

From what I learned, it will be a whiel before Nehalem prices will be low and available. I see prices have fallen dramtically since I built my system. My RAM went from $150 to $40 kits each. My x1900xtx was close to $400 and I see the 4850 is only a little below $200 (in Microcenter).


If it were me and I was into FSX the first thing I would look at would be a CrossFire motherboard. If I was really into FSX I would take a very close look at the upcoming AMD 790gx with the sb750.

The new 790gx motherboards will have 2 x PCIe2 x16 slots including an onboard IGP. In a CrossFire configuration (let's say with 2 HD 4850s or 2 HD4870s) you will be able to shut down the multi-card set-up and enable the 'new' ATI SurroundView - which will allow a maximum of 5 monitors.

With a single video card and the AMD IGP you should be able to run up to 4 monitors.

The only question is .... just how big will you go with the monitors? 3 22-inch monitors and an HD 4850 for $170 might be the sweet spot :p 


a b à CPUs
August 5, 2008 12:13:34 AM

The 9300 does have some advantages. (1) It would be very easy to OC to 3 GHz (7.5 multipler x 400 Bus freq) this would be a very mild OC and with DDR 2 800 would run in sync (1 to 1). At stock you could use DDR2 667 for a 1::1 ratio. (2) It has the New SSE4 which would improve programs (That use it) performance. (3) it would run cooler. Only disadvantage is the Cache 6MB vs 2 x 4 MB - but that is a very small performance issue. Based on that I'd prabaly spring for the 9300. Don't let the "Discontinued" fact enter into your choice.

Off topic. My Son takes to pictures at the Star trek Charity convention (Held first weekend of Dec). He took pictures of my wife with Several SciFi actors/actress. My wife does the printing. My son took the VERY last group picture of the original case (Just before Scotty died. He als did a promotion DVD for Micheal Dave Ward who does the Star Trek painting. Asa has two ($13K and $16K) plus a halve dozen cheaper ones.
August 5, 2008 6:37:39 AM

Wisecracker said:
If it were me and I was into FSX the first thing I would look at would be a CrossFire motherboard. If I was really into FSX I would take a very close look at the upcoming AMD 790gx with the sb750.

The new 790gx motherboards will have 2 x PCIe2 x16 slots including an onboard IGP. In a CrossFire configuration (let's say with 2 HD 4850s or 2 HD4870s) you will be able to shut down the multi-card set-up and enable the 'new' ATI SurroundView - which will allow a maximum of 5 monitors.

With a single video card and the AMD IGP you should be able to run up to 4 monitors.

The only question is .... just how big will you go with the monitors? 3 22-inch monitors and an HD 4850 for $170 might be the sweet spot :p 



OMG, multiple monitors lol. I not a diehard FSX fan, I play it at times. I'm into this one more than the past flight simulators because this time, I can actually takeoff, fly, turn, and land without crashing. LoL major accomplishment. I played the very first flight simulator. I don't play FPS's but I will be going back to MMORPG's though.
a b à CPUs
August 5, 2008 5:54:03 PM

FSX loves CPU speed. I'd wait for Nehalem if you want to run it on high settings.
August 5, 2008 6:03:39 PM

PsyKhiqZero said:
nehalem is said to be about a 11% performance boost per clock which is not alot IMO

90% of the tests ignore that nehalem has a tri-channel memory bus.

As well as other issues with the hardware being in beta.

There are tests that show 20% performance and I'd expect more when testers actually learn how to test the chip.

If you are going to spend 3k+ on a new computer (well, ram, mobo, and cpu), wait for Nehalem. If not, buy a new system now.
a b à CPUs
August 6, 2008 12:05:50 AM

mikeny said:
OMG, multiple monitors lol. I not a diehard FSX fan, I play it at times. I'm into this one more than the past flight simulators because this time, I can actually takeoff, fly, turn, and land without crashing. LoL major accomplishment. I played the very first flight simulator. I don't play FPS's but I will be going back to MMORPG's though.


Sanders Teacher or Link Trainer eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_Trainer
a b à CPUs
August 6, 2008 11:54:38 AM

when phenom goes to 45nm, things might change a lot. i have this feeling because i have seen sevarel report (even one by intel) stating k10 archi is a very hard thing to do in 65nm and will face lot of hard barrier. and that that is y intel waitd for 45nm to move to IMC. so am hoping that will solve phenoms issues and let amd stop the intel making the already exsisting monopoly even worse.

plus lack of compitition not only increases price but also slows down progress of devoloping new better chips since there will be no reason for intel to produce 1.
!