Don't drink the HD tuner Kool-Aid

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

As has been said here before OTA is being killed by 8-VSB. Here is an
article that will become the standard sales pitch for HD displays sans
OTA reception capability. It is only common sense and Econ 101.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6305617-1.html

Instead of thriving like OTA using COFDM is doing in other countries the
FCC's misguided choice of 8-VSB and its continued insanity in "staying
the course" with the 8-VSB tuner mandate is killing OTA. Or is that
their intention?

Bob Miller

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I just connected my OTA antenna. I am in Sequim, WA and getting 8 digital
channels from Seattle, which is 50 miles away. I am behind TWO mountains.

If 8 VSB is sooooo bad, why is it working so well for me? Why did it
work so well in my previous home, 80 miles from the transmitter?

If the transmitters on Qween Ann hill in Seattle were COFDM, they'd
have to transmit at 2 million watts to reach me.


"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Yn7Te.1532$9x2.144@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> As has been said here before OTA is being killed by 8-VSB. Here is an
> article that will become the standard sales pitch for HD displays sans OTA
> reception capability. It is only common sense and Econ 101.
>
> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6305617-1.html
>
> Instead of thriving like OTA using COFDM is doing in other countries the
> FCC's misguided choice of 8-VSB and its continued insanity in "staying the
> course" with the 8-VSB tuner mandate is killing OTA. Or is that their
> intention?
>
> Bob Miller

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 02:44:08 GMT Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:

| As has been said here before OTA is being killed by 8-VSB. Here is an
| article that will become the standard sales pitch for HD displays sans
| OTA reception capability. It is only common sense and Econ 101.
|
| http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6305617-1.html
|
| Instead of thriving like OTA using COFDM is doing in other countries the
| FCC's misguided choice of 8-VSB and its continued insanity in "staying
| the course" with the 8-VSB tuner mandate is killing OTA. Or is that
| their intention?

The FCC "tuner mandate" is intended to do three things:

1. Be sure DTV tuners are present in new sets bought for the purpose of
OTA reception, so consumers are not shafted with something that will
become obsolete (can't receive OTA).

2. Make sure more and mroe people can test out the DTV signal stations
are currently co-broadcasting with.

3. Make sure DTV tuners are manufactured in greater quantity, and in
thus will be lower in price, but the time analog is cut off.

None of that has any bearing on what the modulation or format choices for
digital TV are in the USA. Regardless of choices like ATSC vs DVB, or
8VSB vs QAM vs COFDM, these three issue would be there, and there would
be a tuner mandate, and manufacturers would be making some models with
no tuner at all. If the tuner mandate kills OTA because all manufacturers
drop tuners in all products, or at least most do for most, that would be
the same even if COFDM was chosen (with ATSC or DVB being used).

So your logic falls on its face, Bob.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <Yn7Te.1532$9x2.144@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:

> As has been said here before OTA is being killed by 8-VSB. Here is an
> article that will become the standard sales pitch for HD displays sans
> OTA reception capability. It is only common sense and Econ 101.
>
> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6305617-1.html
>
> Instead of thriving like OTA using COFDM is doing in other countries the
> FCC's misguided choice of 8-VSB and its continued insanity in "staying
> the course" with the 8-VSB tuner mandate is killing OTA. Or is that
> their intention?
>
> Bob Miller

Is it good or bad that the psychiatric facility that you're in allows
you to access the Internet?

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

X-No-archive: yes

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Yn7Te.1532$9x2.144@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> As has been said here before OTA is being killed by 8-VSB. Here is an
> article that will become the standard sales pitch for HD displays sans OTA
> reception capability. It is only common sense and Econ 101.
>
> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6305617-1.html
>
> Instead of thriving like OTA using COFDM is doing in other countries the
> FCC's misguided choice of 8-VSB and its continued insanity in "staying the
> course" with the 8-VSB tuner mandate is killing OTA. Or is that their
> intention?
>
> Bob Miller
===================================
1) I PREFER a separate OTA tuner. The built in ones are usually not as
good.
2) I receive fantastic HD from many stations OTA.
3) I use a-VSB
4) Bob Miller is trying to kill the transition to HD.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Yn7Te.1532$9x2.144@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> As has been said here before OTA is being killed by 8-VSB. Here is an
> article that will become the standard sales pitch for HD displays sans OTA
> reception capability. It is only common sense and Econ 101.
>
> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6305617-1.html
>
> Instead of thriving like OTA using COFDM is doing in other countries the
> FCC's misguided choice of 8-VSB and its continued insanity in "staying the
> course" with the 8-VSB tuner mandate is killing OTA. Or is that their
> intention?
>
> Bob Miller

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <bJGdnThiRLLOe4DeRVnyrA@pipex.net>,
"mattk" <mail@nowhere.com> wrote:

> Except almost all of those countries which use COFDM DVB-T don't have any
> terrestrial high-definition services.

....which a certain person completely ignores as the REAL reason that
ATSC tuners still cost $200+. The cost is due to the requirement to
decode full 1080 line HD even if it is being displayed on a plain NTSC
monitor, and not due to the choice of RF modulation.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:19:10 -0500 Bruce Tomlin <bruce#fanboy.net@127.0.0.1> wrote:
| In article <Xns96C9396437F39k@207.217.125.201>, k <k@nospam.com> wrote:
|
|> My over the air HD is much better than HD from Direct TV
|
| My OTA HD is so good, I'm watching a station from over 600 miles away
| right now.
|
|
| Okay, so there's a catch. The local ABC station (KVUE) has put the New
| Orleans ABC station (WWL) on its second subchannel. WWL is using a
| studio in Baton Rouge right now, or I'd say 700 miles. I really miss
| ABC News Now on the subchannel, but anything is better than that
| anamorphically stretched radar feed.

WWL-TV, channel 4, is a CBS affiliate.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:57:24 -0700 Richard C. <post-age@spamcop.net> wrote:
| X-No-archive: yes
|
| "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
| news:Yn7Te.1532$9x2.144@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
|> As has been said here before OTA is being killed by 8-VSB. Here is an
|> article that will become the standard sales pitch for HD displays sans OTA
|> reception capability. It is only common sense and Econ 101.
|>
|> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6305617-1.html
|>
|> Instead of thriving like OTA using COFDM is doing in other countries the
|> FCC's misguided choice of 8-VSB and its continued insanity in "staying the
|> course" with the 8-VSB tuner mandate is killing OTA. Or is that their
|> intention?
|>
|> Bob Miller
| ===================================
| 1) I PREFER a separate OTA tuner. The built in ones are usually not as
| good.

Not that any manufacturer has ever been wise enough to do this, that I have
seen, but a nice feature would be the ability to have settings, such as
volume, brightness, contrast, chroma, hue, and a bunch of other things they
don't even provide at all, on a per-channel basis. But maybe with digital,
this can still be done even with a separate tuner if enough info from the
ATSC stream comes through for the display to ID what station is coming in.

Otherwise, I would agree with you that a separate OTA tuner is better. But
it would be nice to have the tuning integrated under a single control with
tuning for cable and/or satellite(s). That doesn't mean they all have to
be in a single box if there was a method standardized to allow one tuning
control point to drive the other boxes.


| 4) Bob Miller is trying to kill the transition to HD.

I think Bob is just unhappy because he wanted:

1. A single standard for the whole world (maybe).

2. Something that performs better for close-in multi-path cases (which the
USA has less of than other parts of the world, but it might be what Bob
lives in right now).

3. His investments in companies making COFDM products to flourish.

Before the decision was made, perhaps he could have convinced a lot of
people to support COFDM.

To Bob:

Tell you what. I'll switch sides and support you on changing the USA DTV
system over to COFDM if you'll take my side on switching the rest of the
world over to 60 Hz electrical power. :-)

IOW ... it ain't gonna happen no matter what sides _we_ take.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I have no problem supporting a change to 60Hz so I guess you are
> converted. It won't happen but the US will change to a new DTV
> modulation. The trigger will not be the deficiencies of 8-VSB however
> but the deficiencies of MPEG2.
>
> Once they decide to switch to MPEG4 the modulation will change with it
> since all current receivers will be obsolete anyway.
>
> Bob Miller

You really are nuts, aren't you?
Chip

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:22:27 GMT Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:

| I have no problem supporting a change to 60Hz so I guess you are
| converted. It won't happen but the US will change to a new DTV
| modulation. The trigger will not be the deficiencies of 8-VSB however
| but the deficiencies of MPEG2.
|
| Once they decide to switch to MPEG4 the modulation will change with it
| since all current receivers will be obsolete anyway.

I doubt that will trigger such a change, because it means doing the same
"two channels" thing all over again, and the core TV channel spectrum is
being reduced in size as the current transition phases out, and there is
simply not enough spectrum available to do that again.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
> On 07 Sep 2005 17:47:17 GMT cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net wrote:
> | Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:
> |>
> |> I have no problem supporting a change to 60Hz so I guess you are
> |> converted. It won't happen but the US will change to a new DTV
> |> modulation. The trigger will not be the deficiencies of 8-VSB however
> |> but the deficiencies of MPEG2.
> |>
> |> Once they decide to switch to MPEG4 the modulation will change with it
> |> since all current receivers will be obsolete anyway.
> |>
> |> Bob Miller
> |
> | You really are nuts, aren't you?
>
> If you have no facts/experience/analysis/logic to refute what he says,
> then how can you know he isn't right? If you want to dispute him (much
> as I do), at least do so on that basis before making any personal attacks.
> If you do have those facts/experience/analysis/logic, post them.
>

Here you go, you lazy, stupid, self centered, lying son of a bitch:

<http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22bob+miller%22&hl=en>

It's called "research".

--
Matthew

"All you need to start an asylum is an empty room and the right kind of
people" -- Alexander Bullock ("My Man Godfrey" 1936)

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob,

Any news on 5th generation HDTV terrestrial receivers?

IB

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 14:31:16 -0500 Bruce Tomlin <bruce#fanboy.net@127.0.0.1> wrote:
| In article <dfmtg1331fa@news4.newsguy.com>, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net
| wrote:
|
|> On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:19:10 -0500 Bruce Tomlin <bruce#fanboy.net@127.0.0.1>
|> wrote:
|> | In article <Xns96C9396437F39k@207.217.125.201>, k <k@nospam.com> wrote:
|> |
|> |> My over the air HD is much better than HD from Direct TV
|> |
|> | My OTA HD is so good, I'm watching a station from over 600 miles away
|> | right now.
|> |
|> | Okay, so there's a catch. The local ABC station (KVUE) has put the New
|> | Orleans ABC station (WWL) on its second subchannel. WWL is using a
|> | studio in Baton Rouge right now, or I'd say 700 miles. I really miss
|> | ABC News Now on the subchannel, but anything is better than that
|> | anamorphically stretched radar feed.
|>
|> WWL-TV, channel 4, is a CBS affiliate.
|
| I realized that last night when they started talking about showing
| Letterman. Apparently what they have in common is that they are both
| Belo-owned stations.

Ah, yeah, that would make it easy for them to do the carriage. Then
that means they could be doing the same thing on WFAA-DT in Dallas and
other places Belo owns.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 04:56:38 GMT Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:

| Nothing, I am hardly paying attention. Just counting the number of
| monitors for sale at various retail outlets. Two salesmen cornered me at
| Best Buy and said that monitors are the way to go because there will be
| no need for NTSC tuners and there is no need for ATSC tuners now. They
| actually were getting into the monitor thing.
|
| OTA is still in its death spiral. The only hope on the horizon is
| broadcasters losing the fight for multicast must carry.

That is definitely ironic ... what could save OTA is _not_ getting the
multicast must carry. This is the first argument that got me thinking
that maybe supporting MMC might not be the best. Of course cable systems
could _choose_ to do full multicast carry even without an MMC law. You
think maybe that will help sink OTA and given cable an even stronger
monopoly and ability to raise prices yet again?

Now I wonder what will happen with Satellite services carrying local
stations, where in many locations the way they do this is by installing
an OTA antenna for the customer, if (I did not say "when" since I am
not really convinced it is inevitable) OTA goes dark.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Yn7Te.1532$9x2.144@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> As has been said here before OTA is being killed by 8-VSB. Here is an
> article that will become the standard sales pitch for HD displays sans OTA
> reception capability. It is only common sense and Econ 101.
>
> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6305617-1.html
>
> Instead of thriving like OTA using COFDM is doing in other countries the
> FCC's misguided choice of 8-VSB and its continued insanity in "staying the
> course" with the 8-VSB tuner mandate is killing OTA. Or is that their
> intention?
>
> Bob Miller
>

Just when you think that Bob has finally gone away......

At any rate, I don't believe that Bob ever actually reads the articles that
he cites, as this one has nothing to do with COFDM or 8VSB, only
manufacturers attempting to save some bucks (what a shock that is). They
would be doing the same thing even if the tuners they were trying to avoid
including were COFDM.

What an annoying obsession you have Bob.

Phil

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <1g_Ue.1504$Hj7.16@bignews6.bellsouth.net>,
stephen voss <voss749@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> Some time next year, the UK will get HDTV via Satellite only. Through a
>> company already demonstrating that it is happy to abuse its monopoly
>> position. They also don't care about image quality, as they'll squeeze
>> 10 channels on a 19Mhz multiplex, though fortunately they've committed
>> to MPEG-4 for HDTV, so maybe if they limit themselves to 2 per MUX it
>> might be tolerable.
>
>The equivalent of multidozen channel free over the air cable tv at
>480p...those b?st?rds!

Actually, it's 576i, but yeah, it's not great. Watching soccer on any of
the regional channels which are heavily compressed results in fuzzy
blocks around all the players, even on a small set. On a projector, it
looks awful!

However, since I made my original post, the BBC have announced that they
are launching a FTA system to rival the PPV monopoly that exists, and
the major other channel has also pledged to support FTA too. Whilst, all
this is non-HD, I'm sure the drive behind it is to enable them to push
out free HDTV rather than let the monopoly take over the HDTV market. I
can't really see any other reason, as all the free channels are already
available OTA, which has had good take up already, albeit that there is
no room for expansion as would be required by HDTV coming along.

Suddenly, I'm a lot happier about HDTV here if I know I can use generic
no-name STBs, as I'll also be able to get (with an additional
satellite) HDTV from the rest of Europe and here, so whilst currently we
have nothing, it's looking promising that we could be able to receive up
to 8 channels within a year or two...

Ralf.
--
Ranulf Doswell | Please note this e-mail address
www.ranulf.net | expires one month after posting.