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Anonymous
August 13, 2005 10:32:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

A small success, anyway.

After meeting up with a character who was like level 10 and had not slotted
a single enhancment (he sold everything that dropped to the store), I
decided to run my second (and later) generation of alts on a simple theory:

Never buy a TO.

For the first 12 levels, I just slot whatever I can out of drops and sell
the rest. I don't worry if most of the enhancements are yellow most of the
time (and they are). The money I didn't spend buying TOs should buy more
DOs with when the character hits 12.

....or so the theory goes.

I have a magic Assault Rifle/Devices blaster who just hit 12th. He was the
first test of my theory. (I have two 14th level characters I did under that
theory but they both got 99K gifts, so they weren't valid tests). I don't
know what a character is expected to have in the bank when he hits 12, but
I'll assume 77K is pretty healthy for somene who got no gifts.

I then decided to take advantage of the free respec that NC Soft was kind
enough to give heim whenthey put out issue 4. I sat down with an excel
spreadsheet and figured out what to allocate spending for so I knew where
the money was going to go. I then respecced my blaster. The blaster came
out the same, but I didn't re-slot those enhancements that would have been
relaced with DOs. The respec sold off all the TOs that would otherwise just
be lost. And I got to slot the powers that weren't getting DOs with the
best TOs my character had.

All said and done, it made me another 9K to play with, which at level 12 is
nothing to sneeze at.

I have a block of about 7 characters in the 9-11 range. I want to get them
all to 12 and have their respecs used (and DO's bought) by the time Issue 5
goes live

Then all I have to do is get them all to 17 or 18 before issue 6 comes out.
(and probably gives them all another round of fresh respecs)

:) 


--
John Trauger,
Vorlonagent


"Methane martini.
Shaken, not stirred."

chat: @vorlonagent

Vorlonagent (M), level 30 Blaster (Electric/Energy), Guardian
RolIing Thunder (F), Level 25 Defender (Storm/Electric), Infinity
NightfalI (M), Level 18 Defender (Dark/Dark), Pinnacle
Steel Night (M), Level 17 Tanker (Invulnerable/Super-Strength), Virtue
lmpact (F), Level 17 Blaster (Gun/Energy), Virtue
MC-2 (F), Level 16 Blaster (Force/Fire), Protector
Girl at the Bar (F), Level 14 Controller (Mind/Empthy), Triumph

More about : success

Anonymous
August 13, 2005 1:15:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:32:48 GMT, "Vorlonagent" <jt@otfresno.com> scribed
into the ether:

>A small success, anyway.
>
>After meeting up with a character who was like level 10 and had not slotted
>a single enhancment (he sold everything that dropped to the store), I
>decided to run my second (and later) generation of alts on a simple theory:
>
>Never buy a TO.
>
>For the first 12 levels, I just slot whatever I can out of drops and sell
>the rest. I don't worry if most of the enhancements are yellow most of the
>time (and they are). The money I didn't spend buying TOs should buy more
>DOs with when the character hits 12.
>
>...or so the theory goes.

To get that theory to work still involves packing in a fair amount of debt.
This is my default strategy for all characters; I never buy TOs, ever.

The changes to debt in I5 will make this...challenging.

>I have a magic Assault Rifle/Devices blaster who just hit 12th. He was the
>first test of my theory. (I have two 14th level characters I did under that
>theory but they both got 99K gifts, so they weren't valid tests). I don't
>know what a character is expected to have in the bank when he hits 12, but
>I'll assume 77K is pretty healthy for somene who got no gifts.

77k is pretty good. Should be enough to upgrade everything important
(ignoring stuff like sprint and rest). Depending on what you are slotting,
75-90k is pretty typical for a full load of DOs at level 12.
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 11:33:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:p berf1d0jdsqjdod3n3cel3q1jjb7bci1u@4ax.com...

>>For the first 12 levels, I just slot whatever I can out of drops and sell
>>the rest. I don't worry if most of the enhancements are yellow most of
>>the
>>time (and they are). The money I didn't spend buying TOs should buy more
>>DOs with when the character hits 12.
>>
>>...or so the theory goes.
>
> To get that theory to work still involves packing in a fair amount of
> debt.
> This is my default strategy for all characters; I never buy TOs, ever.

Mine also, once I found my feet with the game. (My poor main has had to
weather every bad decision imaginable, such as me buying TOs all though his
teens. When he was at 20th level, I blew his entire wad of cash on TOs,
leaning only a few days later on this NG what DOs and SOs were for. Now at
30 he's a force to be reckoned with. I put him through a massive retooling,
building up cash till 22, then respeccing to drop useless powers, adopting a
the perma-haste/conserve power strategy and transitioning first to DOs then
SOs in his combat powers)

I'm a little curious about your "debt" comment. I've never noticed a
greater incidence of debt by choosing not to buy TOs. My characters now
don't seem to have a much harder road than earlier ones who did buy TOs.
It's that lack of difference that really makes the strategy a no-brainer.

TOs just don't have that much effect, so for the marginal value you get out
of them, a yellow is as good as a green. The difference between a yellow
and green TO certainly isn't worth the cost of buying the greening-up TO.

> The changes to debt in I5 will make this...challenging.

Really? What changes?


>>I have a magic Assault Rifle/Devices blaster who just hit 12th. He was
>>the
>>first test of my theory. (I have two 14th level characters I did under
>>that
>>theory but they both got 99K gifts, so they weren't valid tests). I don't
>>know what a character is expected to have in the bank when he hits 12, but
>>I'll assume 77K is pretty healthy for somene who got no gifts.
>
> 77k is pretty good. Should be enough to upgrade everything important
> (ignoring stuff like sprint and rest). Depending on what you are slotting,
> 75-90k is pretty typical for a full load of DOs at level 12.

Pretty much. The actual budget turned out closer to 86K with the
respec-induced sellback of TOs that were going to be reslotted with DOs.

I upgraded 4/4 end reduction, 5/8 combat power, 4/4 accuracy and 1/1
recharge reduct with about 4k left over.

The character was having massive end issues, so end reduction DOs got first
call, then Acc, then Damage. I didn't have enough to put something in web
grenade's one lone slot. I don't use it a lot but I want it to hit when I
do. I'll buy an Acc DO for it when I can afford the 6K and change for one.


--
John Trauger,
Vorlonagent


"Methane martini.
Shaken, not stirred."

chat: @vorlonagent

Vorlonagent (M), level 30 Blaster (Electric/Energy), Guardian
RolIing Thunder (F), Level 25 Defender (Storm/Electric), Infinity
NightfalI (M), Level 18 Defender (Dark/Dark), Pinnacle
Steel Night (M), Level 17 Tanker (Invulnerable/Super-Strength), Virtue
lmpact (F), Level 17 Blaster (Gun/Energy), Virtue
MC-2 (F), Level 16 Blaster (Force/Fire), Protector
Pulsar Staraven (F), Level 15 Controller (Grav/Rad), Liberty
Girl at the Bar (F), Level 14 Controller (Mind/Empthy), Triumph
Faraday Facade (F), Level 14 Controller (Illusion/Forcefield), Justice
Related resources
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 12:07:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Vorlonagent" <jt@otfresno.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>A small success, anyway.
>
>After meeting up with a character who was like level 10 and had not slotted
>a single enhancment (he sold everything that dropped to the store), I
>decided to run my second (and later) generation of alts on a simple theory:
>
>Never buy a TO.


I used a variant of this.
The only thing I bothered slotting at all (even from drops) was
accuracy, since it's really the only thing that is actually worth
slotting with TOs.
If I didn't get enough in drops, I'd buy, but since I sold everything
else, it generally didn't burn up the inf supply and the lessened "damn,
missed again" factor made it worthwhile.

Even DOs are barely worth slotting in some powers.

I really wish they had made the way enhancements affected powers
_consistent_ across all powers.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 3:28:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:33:55 GMT, "Vorlonagent" <jt@otfresno.com> scribed
into the ether:

>
>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:p berf1d0jdsqjdod3n3cel3q1jjb7bci1u@4ax.com...
>
>>>For the first 12 levels, I just slot whatever I can out of drops and sell
>>>the rest. I don't worry if most of the enhancements are yellow most of
>>>the
>>>time (and they are). The money I didn't spend buying TOs should buy more
>>>DOs with when the character hits 12.
>>>
>>>...or so the theory goes.
>>
>> To get that theory to work still involves packing in a fair amount of
>> debt.
>> This is my default strategy for all characters; I never buy TOs, ever.
>
>I'm a little curious about your "debt" comment. I've never noticed a
>greater incidence of debt by choosing not to buy TOs. My characters now
>don't seem to have a much harder road than earlier ones who did buy TOs.
>It's that lack of difference that really makes the strategy a no-brainer.

Err no, not that TOs incur debt, but that you need to incur debt in order
to get enough influence for a complete DO makeover at level 12.

If you don't die at at from 5-12, you just won't have gotten enough
influence to make all of the purchases. Someone with lots of debt (my
characters are all permadebted pre-20, and often pre-30 as well) will be
able to afford upgrades a lot easier.

>> The changes to debt in I5 will make this...challenging.
>
>Really? What changes?

No debt at all through level 10. Currently this is level 5. Also, half-debt
acrual while inside a door mission, which isn't as big a deal for a
debt-monger such as myself. There's always a trip to some horribly
overpowered zone to die a bunch of times in short order.

>>>I have a magic Assault Rifle/Devices blaster who just hit 12th. He was
>>>the
>>>first test of my theory. (I have two 14th level characters I did under
>>>that
>>>theory but they both got 99K gifts, so they weren't valid tests). I don't
>>>know what a character is expected to have in the bank when he hits 12, but
>>>I'll assume 77K is pretty healthy for somene who got no gifts.
>>
>> 77k is pretty good. Should be enough to upgrade everything important
>> (ignoring stuff like sprint and rest). Depending on what you are slotting,
>> 75-90k is pretty typical for a full load of DOs at level 12.
>
>Pretty much. The actual budget turned out closer to 86K with the
>respec-induced sellback of TOs that were going to be reslotted with DOs.

Blasters tend to have the highest bills when doing upgrades, because they
have the fewest number of non-power 10s, and almost no access to the cheap
power-10s like DamRes and DefBuff (which are substantially cheaper then Acc
or Dam or Heal enhancements).
August 14, 2005 3:28:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

Matt Frisch wrote:
>
>>>The changes to debt in I5 will make this...challenging.
>>
>>Really? What changes?
>
> Blasters tend to have the highest bills when doing upgrades, because they
> have the fewest number of non-power 10s, and almost no access to the cheap
> power-10s like DamRes and DefBuff (which are substantially cheaper then Acc
> or Dam or Heal enhancements).

Another item to keep in mind is that I5 is balancing based on maximum
capability heros. That means some powers are having base effects set low
in expectation of them getting six SOs in them, sometimes perma-hasten
and epic pools seem to be factored in as well.

This seems to be most extreme in the case of the defender/trick arrow
set. The first power is a fast recharging single target immobilize, the
next seven powers all appear to have two minute recharge times, while
the last power is apparently a clone of radiation's EMP. Other than
making all TA defenders desperate superspeed addicts this wouldn't be
bad, except that several of the powers are very similar to current
defender toggle powers.

To be fair the devs have said they will look at the performance of the
set after I5 goes live. But currently it looks like the entire power set
is based off of perma-hasten and recharge SOs in order to simply keep up
with a team.

Anyways, some powers are being cut down based on six SO performance,
depending on AT and power set you may want to be aware that TO/DO
slotting will yield little or no effect in some powers.

--
I am learning that criticism is not nearly as effective as sabotage.
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 6:22:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:l90tf15g640p44bu70j2mkedkhi1rqo096@4ax.com...

>>I'm a little curious about your "debt" comment. I've never noticed a
>>greater incidence of debt by choosing not to buy TOs. My characters now
>>don't seem to have a much harder road than earlier ones who did buy TOs.
>>It's that lack of difference that really makes the strategy a no-brainer.
>
> Err no, not that TOs incur debt, but that you need to incur debt in order
> to get enough influence for a complete DO makeover at level 12.
>
> If you don't die at at from 5-12, you just won't have gotten enough
> influence to make all of the purchases. Someone with lots of debt (my
> characters are all permadebted pre-20, and often pre-30 as well) will be
> able to afford upgrades a lot easier.

My characters have never had a problem with that. :) 

Also finding groups that can challenge orange and red opponents. I have
noticed that beating blue and green opponents gives less infl than exp and
beating oranges and above gives more infl than exp.


>>> The changes to debt in I5 will make this...challenging.
>>
>>Really? What changes?
>
> No debt at all through level 10. Currently this is level 5. Also,
> half-debt
> acrual while inside a door mission, which isn't as big a deal for a
> debt-monger such as myself. There's always a trip to some horribly
> overpowered zone to die a bunch of times in short order.

I won't worry about it.

Going all-DO at 12 means you have to buy all those DOs again at 18 when it
comes time to upgrade them or watch them go red at 19. You'd have to make
debt a way of life.

And since I seem to earn my share of debt without much help, it seems almost
masochistic to to out of your way to seek it out. :)  It makes good
financial sense, but I just can't wrap my mind around it.


>>>>I have a magic Assault Rifle/Devices blaster who just hit 12th. He was
>>>>the
>>>>first test of my theory. (I have two 14th level characters I did under
>>>>that
>>>>theory but they both got 99K gifts, so they weren't valid tests). I
>>>>don't
>>>>know what a character is expected to have in the bank when he hits 12,
>>>>but
>>>>I'll assume 77K is pretty healthy for somene who got no gifts.
>>>
>>> 77k is pretty good. Should be enough to upgrade everything important
>>> (ignoring stuff like sprint and rest). Depending on what you are
>>> slotting,
>>> 75-90k is pretty typical for a full load of DOs at level 12.
>>
>>Pretty much. The actual budget turned out closer to 86K with the
>>respec-induced sellback of TOs that were going to be reslotted with DOs.
>
> Blasters tend to have the highest bills when doing upgrades, because they
> have the fewest number of non-power 10s, and almost no access to the cheap
> power-10s like DamRes and DefBuff (which are substantially cheaper then
> Acc
> or Dam or Heal enhancements).

I have noticed that. I imagine scrappers have the same problem. Tanks
would depnding on build and empasis.


--
John Trauger,
Vorlonagent


"Methane martini.
Shaken, not stirred."

chat: @vorlonagent

Vorlonagent (M), level 30 Blaster (Electric/Energy), Guardian
RolIing Thunder (F), Level 25 Defender (Storm/Electric), Infinity
NightfalI (M), Level 18 Defender (Dark/Dark), Pinnacle
Steel Night (M), Level 17 Tanker (Invulnerable/Super-Strength), Virtue
lmpact (F), Level 17 Blaster (Gun/Energy), Virtue
MC-2 (F), Level 16 Blaster (Force/Fire), Protector
Pulsar Staraven (F), Level 15 Controller (Grav/Rad), Liberty
Girl at the Bar (F), Level 14 Controller (Mind/Empthy), Triumph
Faraday Facade (F), Level 14 Controller (Illusion/Forcefield), Justice
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 6:28:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Xocyll" <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in message
news:qtctf1p9ropo17dqm9jejahrs1nc6t83fm@4ax.com...

> Even DOs are barely worth slotting in some powers.
>
> I really wish they had made the way enhancements affected powers
> _consistent_ across all powers.

I can understand why they cut back the defense-enhancements.

I just wish I could extend some effects. Many powers, I'd prefer a duration
increase instead of a recharge rate reduction.



--
John Trauger,
Vorlonagent


"Methane martini.
Shaken, not stirred."

chat: @vorlonagent

Vorlonagent (M), level 30 Blaster (Electric/Energy), Guardian
RolIing Thunder (F), Level 25 Defender (Storm/Electric), Infinity
NightfalI (M), Level 18 Defender (Dark/Dark), Pinnacle
Steel Night (M), Level 17 Tanker (Invulnerable/Super-Strength), Virtue
lmpact (F), Level 17 Blaster (Gun/Energy), Virtue
MC-2 (F), Level 16 Blaster (Force/Fire), Protector
Pulsar Staraven (F), Level 15 Controller (Grav/Rad), Liberty
Girl at the Bar (F), Level 14 Controller (Mind/Empthy), Triumph
Faraday Facade (F), Level 14 Controller (Illusion/Forcefield), Justice
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 1:07:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 02:22:23 GMT, "Vorlonagent" <jt@otfresno.com> scribed
into the ether:

>
>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:l90tf15g640p44bu70j2mkedkhi1rqo096@4ax.com...
>
>>>I'm a little curious about your "debt" comment. I've never noticed a
>>>greater incidence of debt by choosing not to buy TOs. My characters now
>>>don't seem to have a much harder road than earlier ones who did buy TOs.
>>>It's that lack of difference that really makes the strategy a no-brainer.
>>
>> Err no, not that TOs incur debt, but that you need to incur debt in order
>> to get enough influence for a complete DO makeover at level 12.
>>
>> If you don't die at at from 5-12, you just won't have gotten enough
>> influence to make all of the purchases. Someone with lots of debt (my
>> characters are all permadebted pre-20, and often pre-30 as well) will be
>> able to afford upgrades a lot easier.
>
>My characters have never had a problem with that. :) 

Sans debt, the most money I've ever had at 12 was about 50k. Nowhere near
enough.

>Also finding groups that can challenge orange and red opponents.

XP comes *far* too fast, and hitting oranges and reds with DO accuracies is
far too much of a pain.

>>>> The changes to debt in I5 will make this...challenging.
>>>
>>>Really? What changes?
>>
>> No debt at all through level 10. Currently this is level 5. Also,
>> half-debt
>> acrual while inside a door mission, which isn't as big a deal for a
>> debt-monger such as myself. There's always a trip to some horribly
>> overpowered zone to die a bunch of times in short order.
>
>I won't worry about it.
>
>Going all-DO at 12 means you have to buy all those DOs again at 18 when it
>comes time to upgrade them or watch them go red at 19. You'd have to make
>debt a way of life.

Yea...and? The sub-30 leveling pace is obscenely fast, debt makes the game
more enjoyable. So what if I have to upgrade my enhancements?

>And since I seem to earn my share of debt without much help, it seems almost
>masochistic to to out of your way to seek it out.

My sub-30 characters make regular trips to Bricks in order to die a half
dozen times. Otherwise I'd barely get any debt at all.

>>>Pretty much. The actual budget turned out closer to 86K with the
>>>respec-induced sellback of TOs that were going to be reslotted with DOs.
>>
>> Blasters tend to have the highest bills when doing upgrades, because they
>> have the fewest number of non-power 10s, and almost no access to the cheap
>> power-10s like DamRes and DefBuff (which are substantially cheaper then
>> Acc
>> or Dam or Heal enhancements).
>
>I have noticed that. I imagine scrappers have the same problem. Tanks
>would depnding on build and empasis.

Decently built scrappers have a big chunk of their slots in their
secondary, which are mostly DamRes and DefBuff (for non-Regens, at least).
Not so bad. Blasters have it worst, Controllers and some Defenders have it
best.
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 3:36:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:28:33 GMT, Matt Frisch
<matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:

> Err no, not that TOs incur debt, but that you need to incur debt in order
> to get enough influence for a complete DO makeover at level 12.
>
> If you don't die at at from 5-12, you just won't have gotten enough
> influence to make all of the purchases. Someone with lots of debt (my
> characters are all permadebted pre-20, and often pre-30 as well) will be
> able to afford upgrades a lot easier.

I never understood the point of this. If you don't have enough DOs, the
debt will come by itself, right? So why take it earlier. If you survive,
your enhancements are good enough. It is the ultimate test. Of course,
you may get defeated at a time more convenient to you. Then again, without
debt you get to a more diverse power set earlier, which increases the fun
of the game. The only reason I can see to incure debt deliberately is if
you are afraid to outlevel contacts.

--
"When someone starts bragging about how much debt they have, it's not a
good sign." -G
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 9:44:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Magnus Itland" <itlandm@online.no> wrote in message
news:o psvhrm2fxb52ai9@news.online.no...

> I never understood the point of this. If you don't have enough DOs, the
> debt will come by itself, right? So why take it earlier. If you survive,
> your enhancements are good enough. It is the ultimate test. Of course,
> you may get defeated at a time more convenient to you. Then again, without
> debt you get to a more diverse power set earlier, which increases the fun
> of the game. The only reason I can see to incure debt deliberately is if
> you are afraid to outlevel contacts.

Yes, I suppose you could put it that way. Or you can think of it as
stopping to smell the roses on your way up through the levels.

Matt is primarily putting it forth as a way of controlling the ratio of
experience vs influnce a character gets, with an eye toward making sure the
chracter has enough influence to completely deck himself out with the best
enhancements his level affords him when the time comes to renew them.

My problem is perhaps rooted in my own competitive nature. A heavy-debt
character can end up feeling "stifled" to me. Like I'm being held down or
held back when playing that character. I have a hard time abiding debt,
even though I know it's good for my character come enhancement-buying time.
Part of it is also rooted in social pressure. I have a several RW friends
who play and we have characters that are set aside to go through the game
together. We try to stay at the same level as compared to each other. Debt
means I fall behind.


I'd disagree with Matt on one issue: If a character can challenge orange or
better opponents I still think it's a good idea. If we say that E is the
experience we get for taking down a bad guy and I is the influence:

For green and blue opponents, I < E (Just based on memory, the ratio of I:E
is about 4:5). A character gains experience faster than he gains influence,
which is decidedly bad for enhancement-buying.

For white opponents, usually I = E. Yellow, too, I would expect.

For orange and above, I > E. (ratio is about 5:4)

When a character is in debt, E is divided by 2, dramatically altering the
I:E ratio. The green/blue ratio closer to 8:5. White and yellow would be
2:1. But with orange and above the ratio would be more like 5:2.

If you really want max money for enhancements, fight the toughest baddies
you can beat while under constant debt.

If you think of it, daring to push the enveolope of what you're capable of
and taking on the worst you can handle is rather heroic and gets you the
best rewards.

And that is as it should be.


--
John Trauger,
Vorlonagent


"Methane martini.
Shaken, not stirred."

chat: @vorlonagent

Vorlonagent (M), level 30 Blaster (Electric/Energy), Guardian
RolIing Thunder (F), Level 25 Defender (Storm/Electric), Infinity
NightfalI (M), Level 18 Defender (Dark/Dark), Pinnacle
Steel Night (M), Level 17 Tanker (Invulnerable/Super-Strength), Virtue
lmpact (F), Level 17 Blaster (Gun/Energy), Virtue
MC-2 (F), Level 16 Blaster (Force/Fire), Protector
Pulsar Staraven (F), Level 15 Controller (Grav/Rad), Liberty
Girl at the Bar (F), Level 14 Controller (Mind/Empthy), Triumph
Faraday Facade (F), Level 14 Controller (Illusion/Forcefield), Justice
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 12:53:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:36:28 +0200, Magnus Itland <itlandm@online.no>
scribed into the ether:

>On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:28:33 GMT, Matt Frisch
><matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>
>> Err no, not that TOs incur debt, but that you need to incur debt in order
>> to get enough influence for a complete DO makeover at level 12.
>>
>> If you don't die at at from 5-12, you just won't have gotten enough
>> influence to make all of the purchases. Someone with lots of debt (my
>> characters are all permadebted pre-20, and often pre-30 as well) will be
>> able to afford upgrades a lot easier.
>
>I never understood the point of this. If you don't have enough DOs, the
>debt will come by itself, right?

No. I very seldomly die without intending to.

> So why take it earlier. If you survive, your enhancements are good enough.

It's not an issue of good enough. I could get to 50 only slotting TO
accuracies and still wouldn't die all that much.

>Then again, without
>debt you get to a more diverse power set earlier, which increases the fun
>of the game.

The fun of the game is not skyrocketing through the low levels for me. I
could get any character to level 15 in a day, but that isn't fun. I'd much
rather take 2 weeks.

> The only reason I can see to incure debt deliberately is if
>you are afraid to outlevel contacts.

This is the primary reason. The extra influence is a nice bonus, really.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 12:56:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:44:37 GMT, "Vorlonagent" <jt@otfresno.com> scribed
into the ether:


>I'd disagree with Matt on one issue: If a character can challenge orange or
>better opponents I still think it's a good idea. If we say that E is the
>experience we get for taking down a bad guy and I is the influence:
>
>For green and blue opponents, I < E (Just based on memory, the ratio of I:E
>is about 4:5). A character gains experience faster than he gains influence,
>which is decidedly bad for enhancement-buying.
>
>For white opponents, usually I = E. Yellow, too, I would expect.
>
>For orange and above, I > E. (ratio is about 5:4)
>
>When a character is in debt, E is divided by 2, dramatically altering the
>I:E ratio. The green/blue ratio closer to 8:5. White and yellow would be
>2:1. But with orange and above the ratio would be more like 5:2.
>
>If you really want max money for enhancements, fight the toughest baddies
>you can beat while under constant debt.

I didn't say that fighting +villians was bad influence. I said it leveled
me too fast (even with debt), and that it was annoying with pre-SO
accuracies.

I'm quite happy when running high-XP TFs like Sister Psyche, where the rest
of my group gains 2-3 levels each, and I don't even get one, and that's
going against orange minions (and thus purple bosses) the whole time.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 1:23:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:44:37 GMT, Vorlonagent <jt@otfresno.com> wrote:
> "Magnus Itland" <itlandm@online.no> wrote in message
> news:o psvhrm2fxb52ai9@news.online.no...
>
>> I never understood the point of this. If you don't have enough DOs, the
>> debt will come by itself, right? So why take it earlier. If you
>> survive, your enhancements are good enough. It is the ultimate test.
>> Of course, you may get defeated at a time more convenient to you. Then
>> again, without debt you get to a more diverse power set earlier, which
>> increases the fun of the game. The only reason I can see to incure debt
>> deliberately is if you are afraid to outlevel contacts.
>
> Yes, I suppose you could put it that way. Or you can think of it as
> stopping to smell the roses on your way up through the levels.
>
> Matt is primarily putting it forth as a way of controlling the ratio of
> experience vs influnce a character gets, with an eye toward making sure
> the chracter has enough influence to completely deck himself out with
> the best enhancements his level affords him when the time comes to renew
> them.

Part of my attitude is perhaps that I make alts like crazy, so I get to
see the low-level content as much as I could possibly desire. (Also I
played on the US servers for almost a year before starting on the Euro
servers, and it's the same content.) I can see debt being useful if you
want to see as much as possible of the game with only one character.

Once you get a bit further up, you get a new tool to control the inf:xp
ratio, namely exemplaring. With the new auto-exemplaring for task forces,
getting influence is riduculously simple once you're past lvl 16. Just
pick a task force, there is usually one starting within reasonable time.
If you're not in debt, all your xp is converted to influence, so it just
keeps rolling in. The higher your level, the faster the torrent of
influence. But if you are in debt, this won't work, since reducing debt
is in fact the same as gaining experience.

--
"When someone starts bragging about how much debt they have, it's not a
good sign." -G
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 1:15:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:53:32 GMT, Matt Frisch
<matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:36:28 +0200, Magnus Itland <itlandm@online.no>
> scribed into the ether:

>> Then again, without
>> debt you get to a more diverse power set earlier, which increases the
>> fun of the game.
>
> The fun of the game is not skyrocketing through the low levels for me. I
> could get any character to level 15 in a day, but that isn't fun. I'd
> much rather take 2 weeks.

OK. I am one of those "life begins at 14" people myself. I love the
travel powers, as well as combat with a tactical element of picking the
right power at any given moment. There are others again who think life
begins with Stamina, or even perma-Haste. Of course, in my case it is
likely a result of alt-itis too. I can see the first maps right now
without even closing my eyes.

I get enough debt when I come to the Terra Volta respec. ^_^

--
"When someone starts bragging about how much debt they have, it's not a
good sign." -G
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 2:07:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:15:57 +0200, Magnus Itland <itlandm@online.no>
scribed into the ether:

>On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:53:32 GMT, Matt Frisch
><matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:36:28 +0200, Magnus Itland <itlandm@online.no>
>> scribed into the ether:
>
>>> Then again, without
>>> debt you get to a more diverse power set earlier, which increases the
>>> fun of the game.
>>
>> The fun of the game is not skyrocketing through the low levels for me. I
>> could get any character to level 15 in a day, but that isn't fun. I'd
>> much rather take 2 weeks.
>
>OK. I am one of those "life begins at 14" people myself. I love the
>travel powers, as well as combat with a tactical element of picking the
>right power at any given moment. There are others again who think life
>begins with Stamina, or even perma-Haste. Of course, in my case it is
>likely a result of alt-itis too. I can see the first maps right now
>without even closing my eyes.

Actually, for me, life begins at 30, when I can finally stop obsessing over
the hyper-velocity leveling rate and enjoy my missions without having to
micromanage my XP to avoid outleveling stuff. I still like taking my time
in the early going. Travel powers are marvelous, yes, and it is a relief to
finally get one, but it's not really when the game starts for me.

>I get enough debt when I come to the Terra Volta respec. ^_^

People die on the respec trial?
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 3:19:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

I don't know why some people actually want to get in debt just so they
can afford DOs at 12...
Hello? if you don't get debt, then at the same time you would get to
12 I would be 13 or 14, so each mob gives more influence, each mission
yields more influence, etc, so I would be 14 with all my DOs in place
while you're 12 with all your DOs in place.
Having debt just doesn't make any sense, unless you set yourself on a
mission to 'have all DOs at 12'.
August 15, 2005 10:18:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

Xocyll wrote:
>>People die on the respec trial?
>
>
> Yeah - usually on teams with people who really NEED to respec.
>
> The number of times I've seen people rushing to do respec while at the
> _MINIMUM_ possible level - well you just know they're going to die.

Or the team of three level 24s, one level 26, three level 30s, and a
level 50? They wanted to exemp the 30s and 50 to the 24s and 26, and the
30s were the defenders and the tank. They ended up kicking my 30 FF def
and I went with another group that SKed people up instead. About the
time we finished and were standing around TV chatting half of that exemp
happy team got spat out the door face down.

I never did find out if they won or not. Our only defeat was when the
regen scrapper decided to play kiss-the-bomb, it happens.

--
The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign that the conspiracy is
working.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 11:44:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>I don't know why some people actually want to get in debt just so they
>can afford DOs at 12...
>Hello? if you don't get debt, then at the same time you would get to
>12 I would be 13 or 14, so each mob gives more influence, each mission
>yields more influence, etc, so I would be 14 with all my DOs in place
>while you're 12 with all your DOs in place.
>Having debt just doesn't make any sense, unless you set yourself on a
>mission to 'have all DOs at 12'.

It does make sense form one point of view - just not yours or my default
one.

Being able to function without all your powers fully DO'd or SO'd up
doesn't mean that's the most fun (unless you like a challenge.)

It's far less noticeable with DO's but the same thing kicks in again at
22 when it's SO time.
Unless you've gotten a handout (won a contest, handed down cash from
another account, etc) the chances of you actually getting a full load of
SOs at 22 is, well, zero, unless you've played the debt game.

Hell on the last scrapper I was running I didn't have a full load of SOs
until level 28 or so because I just didn't die.
I hadn't finished upgrading the level 27 SOs by the time i'd reached the
next replace level.

This DID make me slightly less effective. Not really a concern since I
was still functioning just fine, but a certain amount of that "just
fine" is pure player experience making up for a deficiency in the
character.

Scrappers/Tankers can (or at least could) afford to do this - to a
point, other ATs might have much more trouble due to less
defenses/resists.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 12:02:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Vorlonagent" <jt@otfresno.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>
>"Xocyll" <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in message
>news:qtctf1p9ropo17dqm9jejahrs1nc6t83fm@4ax.com...
>
>> Even DOs are barely worth slotting in some powers.
>>
>> I really wish they had made the way enhancements affected powers
>> _consistent_ across all powers.
>
>I can understand why they cut back the defense-enhancements.
>
>I just wish I could extend some effects. Many powers, I'd prefer a duration
>increase instead of a recharge rate reduction.

That too.
And area affected. and chance of status affect percentage and area
affected (cone width, AOE radius) and a few others.

For all the types included, there just aren't that many actually worth
using at all, much less at the TO level.


The main thing I meant about consistency is that Accuracy is purely
additive to the base 75%, while pretty much everything else is a
percentage of current damage/end cost/recharge time/etc.
As a result, 3 TOs gets you to 99% acc (capped at 95%), while everything
else applies 8% (or less) to the base level.

Oooo Ahhh +8% damage to an attack that does 10 at that level.

They've really made a hash of things, and it doesn't look like they'll
ever fix it. I doubt at this point that they are capable of fixing it.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 10:39:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

I dunno, all my characters have worked 'just fine', and I actually
enjoyed it more, when I had to buy my enhancements one by one. Gave me
like a mini ding after every mission. Oh and I had no trouble at all
with any of my heroes (some 12 in total, never had a problem performing
solo or in groups) and never transferred influence among them, my
blaster has millions of influence, while my low level defender has like
300.
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 9:42:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124199541.358957.125760@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I dunno, all my characters have worked 'just fine', and I actually
> enjoyed it more, when I had to buy my enhancements one by one. Gave me
> like a mini ding after every mission. Oh and I had no trouble at all
> with any of my heroes (some 12 in total, never had a problem performing
> solo or in groups) and never transferred influence among them, my
> blaster has millions of influence, while my low level defender has like
> 300.

My play isn't always "just fine". I get myself (wahtever self I'm playing)
killed a decent amount as it is.

While this discussion has had me consider intentionally taking on debt, I
haven't yet.

In the end, I'm here to play, not to gear the game so my character is an
absolute power-fantasy. If I can take small steps along the way that will
help with effectivness (such as conserving money by not buying TOs or using
the free respecs we get to sell off enhancements I'm about to replace) I'm
gonna do it. I'll try to look at debt as inf help not a liability.


--
John Trauger,
Vorlonagent


"Methane martini.
Shaken, not stirred."

chat: @vorlonagent

Vorlonagent (M), level 30 Blaster (Electric/Energy), Guardian
RolIing Thunder (F), Level 25 Defender (Storm/Electric), Infinity
NightfalI (M), Level 18 Defender (Dark/Dark), Pinnacle
Steel Night (M), Level 17 Tanker (Invulnerable/Super-Strength), Virtue
lmpact (F), Level 17 Blaster (Gun/Energy), Virtue
MC-2 (F), Level 16 Blaster (Force/Fire), Protector
Pulsar Staraven (F), Level 15 Controller (Grav/Rad), Liberty
Girl at the Bar (F), Level 14 Controller (Mind/Empthy), Triumph
Faraday Facade (F), Level 14 Controller (Illusion/Forcefield), Justice
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 1:51:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

Magnus Itland <itlandm@online.no> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:53:32 GMT, Matt Frisch
><matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:36:28 +0200, Magnus Itland <itlandm@online.no>
>> scribed into the ether:
>
>>> Then again, without
>>> debt you get to a more diverse power set earlier, which increases the
>>> fun of the game.
>>
>> The fun of the game is not skyrocketing through the low levels for me. I
>> could get any character to level 15 in a day, but that isn't fun. I'd
>> much rather take 2 weeks.
>
> OK. I am one of those "life begins at 14" people myself.

Here too. I've beaten enough Skulls and Hellions for a lifetime.

> Of course, in my case it is likely a result of alt-itis too. I can
> see the first maps right now without even closing my eyes.

Bingo!
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
!