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Newegg and 790GX: A matchmade in heaven?

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August 6, 2008 7:29:18 PM

Howdy folks,
Yes I'm back reporting on the doings of the company we all love to hate. And today's news we'd rather not hear is that Neweg has stocked 790GX boards as I said they would this week. I actually thought last week, but wasn't aware of when the NDA lifted.

There are tons of reviews floating around the Web, but as usual,

NO ONE SHOWS OC SCORES.

WTH?


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131331Asus

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813186150FoxConn

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138128BioStar


There are also Gigabyte, DFI and MSI boards in the pipeline. Now that Phenom will consistently run at 3GHz+ I wonder what the excuse for their sagging stock price will be. I mean they demoed EUV, set records in Web, VM and SPEC, but still they are not getting any respect. Puma is a brilliant platform, 4800 series is the fastest single slot card (X2).

What more do they have to do to show that they are not really behind Intel? It looks like the process gap is lessening adn should be around even if 32nm goes off without a hitch. I think that's what upsets me most. Atom -> delayed, Centirino2 -> delayed. G45 -> still crap.

Intel stock shodl be $6 according to how AMD took hits for the same things. Yet another reason why I stopped posting here.
a b à CPUs
August 6, 2008 7:59:28 PM

LOL, you don't really know how the stock market works, right? AMD is being punished for Citigroup's screwups, Intel too, but AMD is punished worse because it's a smaller company (that is, it has a very large "beta"). Once the financial crisis is fixed, the higher beta will work in AMD's favor i.e. it should go up way faster than Intel.

Look, I like AMD, and I wish them the best, but I don't get why the 790GX works at x8+x8 in Crossfire. That's silly IMO, especially with AMD having the best video cards around at the time. You get to pick between 790GX with great overclocking but Crossfire bottlenecks, and 790FX with less overclocking and Crossfire at full speed. I want something that does both!!!

a b à CPUs
August 6, 2008 8:03:11 PM

Baron,
I enjoy reading some of your comments, and the responsea. Very seldom get involved. But your reflection on stock price... well. Unless AMDs products were to take Intels current line up to the cleaners, it will have very little bearing on the relative diff in stock price.

The value of amd vs intel stock price is determined be investors - vast majority have a hard time setting up a "store bought" computer to do their trade let along care about high end performance for.

They care more about how moch the company is worth compared to the number of outsanding shares. This includes debt, cash on hand, and value of assets. Amd - high debt little cash on hand, assets sheding to increase bottom line. Compare that to intel's position.
Analysis Recomendations:
INTC AMD
Srong Buy 11 3
Buy 15 4
Hold 12 18
Underperform 0 4
Sell 0 1

Hummmm I quess this is why I have 200 Shares of Intel, an zero AMD
Has noting to do with Which Proc is better, Money is Money
August 6, 2008 8:22:31 PM

aevm said:
LOL, you don't really know how the stock market works, right? AMD is being punished for Citigroup's screwups, Intel too, but AMD is punished worse because it's a smaller company (that is, it has a very large "beta"). Once the financial crisis is fixed, the higher beta will work in AMD's favor i.e. it should go up way faster than Intel.

Look, I like AMD, and I wish them the best, but I don't get why the 790GX works at x8+x8 in Crossfire. That's silly IMO, especially with AMD having the best video cards around at the time. You get to pick between 790GX with great overclocking but Crossfire bottlenecks, and 790FX with less overclocking and Crossfire at full speed. I want something that does both!!!



The Stock Market sucks then.

AMD doesn't want to cannibalize their 790FX sales, so of course the GX will have something less than FX. Besides, x8 PCIe 2 is like x16 PCIe 1 which had plenty of bandwidth. 790FX will get the SB750 soon. I'm assumign that manufs want to let stock go down on the SB600 boards. They work, why not sell them?
a b à CPUs
August 6, 2008 8:32:54 PM

The stock market sure sucks, true :) 

Yeah, I hear that 790FX/SB750 will be out soon. That should change the tone a bit in the forums, if it's really as good as the previews claim.



a b à CPUs
August 6, 2008 8:33:42 PM

Quote:
The Stock Market sucks then.


That didn't help your cause any.

I like your fire and motivation; work on the research and underlying basis for investment connections.
August 6, 2008 8:39:23 PM

RetiredChief said:
Baron,
I enjoy reading some of your comments, and the responsea. Very seldom get involved. But your reflection on stock price... well. Unless AMDs products were to take Intels current line up to the cleaners, it will have very little bearing on the relative diff in stock price.

The value of amd vs intel stock price is determined be investors - vast majority have a hard time setting up a "store bought" computer to do their trade let along care about high end performance for.

They care more about how moch the company is worth compared to the number of outsanding shares. This includes debt, cash on hand, and value of assets. Amd - high debt little cash on hand, assets sheding to increase bottom line. Compare that to intel's position.
Analysis Recomendations:
INTC AMD
Srong Buy 11 3
Buy 15 4
Hold 12 18
Underperform 0 4
Sell 0 1

Hummmm I quess this is why I have 200 Shares of Intel, an zero AMD
Has noting to do with Which Proc is better, Money is Money



That is ilogical. It takes years to produce a CPU and months to ramp. Sure, AMD made some mistakes. Mainly trying to win a price war with a company 10X its size, but the fruits of the ATi purchase are more than visible now. AMD chipsets seem to be outselling nVidia. 790GX is able to play games at 1024 and in some cases 1280 or 1680. Deneb is looking really good which means Shanghai may be a revelation.

From everything I see, AMD should be more above hold. They should break even in operating income this Q and maybe even be in the black, depending on what the margin on 4800 is. Phenom is selling like hotcakes right now and the largest interest is in the most expensive CPUs (9850\9950BE). I know that Phenom has higher margins than X2 90nm because of 300mm wafers and Barcelna is above Opteron for the same reason.

Now if they can get Turion moving into business, they will be in business - no pun intended. But I knwo Intel is on the phone right now shmoozing and working around how bad X4500 sucks. I have an Intel IGP now and even with a Turion X2 and 6150(3 years old), I get better window refresh, faster taskbar drawing, etc.

That's what upsets me. It's OK if Intel is selling somethign barely does what it's supposed to and people actually defend them but AMD is a little slower now and the world ended.


BAAAHHHHH!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 6, 2008 9:00:46 PM

yeah economy sucks... last year when I was in California... there was fast food chain (Carl's Jr) and I could get a hand scooped extra large shake for like 3 bucks... now, a year later when i'm back out here... i can get a small hand scooped shake for 4.50.... how awesome is that ?
August 7, 2008 12:33:44 AM

wow baron amd is back!

they actually have a decent product now! I actually like it!


baron what is this bs:


"Intel stock shodl be $6 according to how AMDhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Micro_Devices took hits for the same things. Yet another reason why I stopped posting here. "



amd has lost so much money the have predictive bankruptcy, intel comes in makes money and is right in the money -dude do you know anything about the stock makert?

its predicts the future not the past, amd stock should be at 40 if single core athlons where still state of the art. seeing as intel is about to release a new major revolution called nehalem and amd is loosing moeny the stock is properly priced



ati is worth $10 but amd'sliablity is minus 5 = $5 wow thats where its at!
August 7, 2008 5:09:43 PM

dragonsprayer said:
wow baron amd is back!

they actually have a decent product now! I actually like it!


baron what is this bs:


"Intel stock shodl be $6 according to how AMDhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Micro_Devices took hits for the same things. Yet another reason why I stopped posting here. "



amd has lost so much money the have predictive bankruptcy, intel comes in makes money and is right in the money -dude do you know anything about the stock makert?

its predicts the future not the past, amd stock should be at 40 if single core athlons where still state of the art. seeing as intel is about to release a new major revolution called nehalem and amd is loosing moeny the stock is properly priced



ati is worth $10 but amd'sliablity is minus 5 = $5 wow thats where its at!



Really, well explain why both ATi and nVidia got their chipset licenses canceled? Is that how to foster competition? Did they think AMD would steal some secret that they probably already have access to anyway? And why as soon as Larrabee was MENTIONED, nVidia was basically told they won't get a QPI license. Or perhaps you can explain how ATi col dbe worth the same without the Intel chipset sales.

Strange that.

Competition is good?
a b à CPUs
August 7, 2008 5:32:17 PM

You realize that nvidia does have a nehalem license now, and will be selling lga1366 boards, right?
a b à CPUs
August 7, 2008 5:37:48 PM

Will Intel get a SLI license in exchange, by any chance? It would be nice to have a Nehalem MB with an Intel chipset that supports two nVidia cards.

August 7, 2008 7:28:23 PM

cjl said:
You realize that nvidia does have a nehalem license now, and will be selling lga1366 boards, right?



That's not what I heard. The word was that Intel wanted SLI. nVidia would only give them the NForce 200 chip like in SkullTrail. Intel held off on the Penryn specs until AFTER their chipset came out and said it was an oversight. And if they did the same thing with Neh I guess it's a pattern of stifling competition. I'll Google it. Though it still doesn't explain why even the chipset that appeared before the AMD buy was not even put out. No one wanted to upset Intel. Yeah, they're real friendly to competitors and partners.
August 7, 2008 7:30:55 PM

aevm said:
Will Intel get a SLI license in exchange, by any chance? It would be nice to have a Nehalem MB with an Intel chipset that supports two nVidia cards.



The word was that nVidia WON'T give Intel a license because Intel would abuse the privilege. nVidia doesn't want to give them the "keys to the kingdom."
a b à CPUs
August 7, 2008 7:44:52 PM

Nice find. Thanks!

a c 111 à CPUs
August 7, 2008 8:00:30 PM

Thread : Newegg and 790GX: A matchmade in heaven?

Maybe.

But I would prefer me in a flesh pile in a tub of warm oil with the Swedish female Olympic swim team.

(And I have high hopes that AMD and their mobo vendors will soon be rolling out a 790FX with sb750)

The 790GX looks sweet, however :bounce: 

As far as the Intel/AMD stock thing ...go here --->>
http://tools.morningstar.com/charts/Mcharts.aspx?Countr...

Click the Price tab
Click the 10yr tab
Type AMD in the text box and click the add button

AMD has consistently kicked Intel butt since 2000. If I had the $$$ I'd ride them back up ...

a b à CPUs
August 8, 2008 8:10:14 PM

Wisecracker

Two things come to mind.
One is that litle phrase at the end of mutal funds and ads for buying gold - Past performance is not a given for future growth.

The 2nd is your choise of words "Consistantenly kicked ...." Check the 1, 2, $ 5 year stock prices, I think you will find Intc comes out ahead.

Until AMD gets out from under the 5 Billion (With a capital B") debt and profits (NOT from sale of assets) significatly improves ther stock price is going to be range bound.
a c 111 à CPUs
August 9, 2008 2:05:02 PM

Sorry to disagree, Chief ....

A $10k purchase on August 1st would have a gain of $2,666.67 at the closing price on Friday August 8th. After taxes and fees that's a sweet cool return of 22% in a week on your money.

Any way you look at it you have been p'wned.

In case you haven't been paying attention TSMC (the world's largest chip foundry) is doing 45 nm SOI for AMD. In the next 12 months AMD will introduce the world's first discrete GPUs using SOI 45 nm (and High-K gates) - i.e., Fusion - into the mainstream desktop market (with 'shrinks' to half-node 40 nm or even 32 nm SOI).

AMD is not going fab-'less' but fab-'light'. I don't care if they sell Dirk's desk to keep the train rolling. And IIRC no debt principle is due until 2012 (giving AMD more than enough time to 'chip' away at the principle and refinance in 4 years).

btw - Saratoga approved a $54 million wastewater expansion back in June for the AMD 32nm Fab at Malta. Oh, darn! There I go with those pesky facts again!


a b à CPUs
August 10, 2008 2:41:21 AM

Wisecracker
I have not been p'wned - You did not refute any points I made
You can cherry pick all you want with hind sight, That does not make it a valid argument. I did not cherry pick dates, I just looked at 1,2,5 yr returns. I do very poorly at timing the market as MOST People do. SO I DON"T.

Counter point (Cherry picking)
How about picking AMD $40 + (06 price) to current price $5
A 10K purchase is now worth ONLY $1,250 OUCH
While at same time Intc went from approx $21 to current price $24
or a gain (NOT LOSS) of approx $1,400

Lets see - I bought 200 Shares of csco After splits ended up with 900 shares, sold 400 shares. Still have 500 shares with an equivalent share price of 90 cents per share currently worth $24 per share - How's your real life investment doing.

Your "facts" don't impress the majority of the analysis nor me when it comes to Money!
August 10, 2008 3:54:23 AM

I wish I had 10-20K right now to throw into AMD stock: it would be a VERY good idea at this time.

(But I'm buying a new Jeep in the next year or so. And I like to pay cash.)
a c 127 à CPUs
August 10, 2008 4:44:40 AM

aevm said:
LOL, you don't really know how the stock market works, right? AMD is being punished for Citigroup's screwups, Intel too, but AMD is punished worse because it's a smaller company (that is, it has a very large "beta"). Once the financial crisis is fixed, the higher beta will work in AMD's favor i.e. it should go up way faster than Intel.

Look, I like AMD, and I wish them the best, but I don't get why the 790GX works at x8+x8 in Crossfire. That's silly IMO, especially with AMD having the best video cards around at the time. You get to pick between 790GX with great overclocking but Crossfire bottlenecks, and 790FX with less overclocking and Crossfire at full speed. I want something that does both!!!


Actuallyt its not Citigroup. Citi just gets most of the news because its the largest financial institution in the world that also holds Smith Barney on of the worlds largest brokering firms that holds over 1 trillion in assests. I know because I work for Citi.

The major cause is not just Citi its all financial institutions and mainly the mortgage lending companies. Why? The lending companies borrowed from a very unsecure place and started lending to people who couldn't afford it. Like a person making $30K could afford a 300K house in Cali..... yea right. So what happened? Well forclosures started happining and the sub-prime credit market basically crashed causing a lot of mortgage companies (i.e. Country Wide) to go bye bye and to be bought out and to have the damages asorbed by the larger banks such as B of A who bought Country Wide at the wrong time.

Either way its because stupid people gave dumber people money they could not pay back and got screwed.

As for the stock market RetiredChief is right that it is NOT based on how good a product is. Its dependant on the companies overall quarterly profits. Take Intel as a good example. Back in I think Q407 they posted past THEIR expectations and hell even record profits. But a analyst expected about $100million more than Intel made so their stock went down.

Until AMD gets their debt issues down a bit and are able to turn some good profits their stock will not skyrocket. Maybe you can invest now but the return will probably take a few years that is if you want a GOOD return.
a b à CPUs
August 10, 2008 5:09:45 AM

Oops, sorry if my comment offended you as an employee of Citigroup. I'm assuming you personally work in IT and shouldn't really get any blame for bad loans or for what the stock does. I'm just mad at them these days because I own a lot of their shares and they're taking a beating.

Yeah, it's not just Citi, of course. In fact, others have done much worse.

You know what, I'm especially blaming all these TV shows that show somebody buying a house, making a few superficial improvements, then selling it for A LOT more. I have a feeling that some people and their banks got in trouble that way.
a c 127 à CPUs
August 10, 2008 5:20:22 AM

^I wasn't offended. I don't care either way its just that Citi gets a lot of the focus and people think they are going to go out of business when Citi is doing the best out of all the banks.

I just read all of BMs post and he just doesn't understand does he? Atom is a side project and Intels Centrino is still doing great. Intels IGPs do great for businesses hence why Intel outsells anyone else there. I don't think a company will pay $150 for a 4850 when they can get the mobo and IGP for less that $100.

Intels main markets are giving them PROFITS. Thats what AMD does not have and without PROFITS AMDs stock will not go up.

Wow. You stopped posting here because Intels stock didn't go down when their main markets still did well?

Oh and another thing, AMDs Barcy delay is NOTHING like Intels Atom delay. Atom is not Intels money maker. Its a side project and thats all. Barcy is AMDs biggest income genorator and delaying that cost them.

Seriously your Intel hate makes you post some of the dumbest things.
August 10, 2008 6:33:51 AM

I will wait until AMD's financial status becomes a lot better... at the moment AMD's investment grade is well below "investable".
August 11, 2008 3:47:30 PM

jimmysmitty said:
^I wasn't offended. I don't care either way its just that Citi gets a lot of the focus and people think they are going to go out of business when Citi is doing the best out of all the banks.

I just read all of BMs post and he just doesn't understand does he? Atom is a side project and Intels Centrino is still doing great. Intels IGPs do great for businesses hence why Intel outsells anyone else there. I don't think a company will pay $150 for a 4850 when they can get the mobo and IGP for less that $100.

Intels main markets are giving them PROFITS. Thats what AMD does not have and without PROFITS AMDs stock will not go up.

Wow. You stopped posting here because Intels stock didn't go down when their main markets still did well?

Oh and another thing, AMDs Barcy delay is NOTHING like Intels Atom delay. Atom is not Intels money maker. Its a side project and thats all. Barcy is AMDs biggest income genorator and delaying that cost them.

Seriously your Intel hate makes you post some of the dumbest things.




I understand totally that there is a double standard when it comes to Intel and AMD. The reason Intel is selling more is because they can force people out of the IGP arena by canceling chipset licenses. Everytime they cancel someone's license of course they pick up the business. That's why ATi lost most of its revenue. At this point you can get an X2 with 2GB RAM for the same price as a EeePC nearly. Puma with the Ql series is cheaper and more powerful than Centrino 1, 2, or 3.

That means that OEMs can sell less expensive products with more power. Wouldn't that make their customers recommend them? If they are not selling the better product, you have to wonder why. Puma is just trickling into retail with no systems above 2.1GHz. If you can sell a system for $1500 and get a higher margin due to static component prices, why wouldn't you? Unless you are under pressure not to. Sound familiar?
a c 127 à CPUs
August 11, 2008 4:13:28 PM

The business market is different. Businesses do not need high power. They just need to be able to run the basic programs and thats it.

BTW why should Intel havd a license for ATI chipsets if AMD does not havs a license for Intel to make chipsets for AMD CPUs?

I pondered why Intel would stop it and it makes sense. Why should Intel have AMD make them chipsets when AMD doesn't have Intel make them chipsets.

Anywho, there is no double standard for Intel. Its about the facts. Fact AMDs Barcy delay cost them a lot of money. Fact Intel keeps posting great profits. Results? AMDs stock goes down while Intels stock stays the same or goes up.

I would love to see the Puma results and see how "powerful" it is since I have yet to see it out in the market yet. Of course I would expect a discrete ATI GPU like the 3200 or 3400 to be faster than the G45 IGP.
August 11, 2008 4:51:09 PM

jimmysmitty said:
BTW why should Intel havd a license for ATI chipsets if AMD does not havs a license for Intel to make chipsets for AMD CPUs?


I'm sure just as soon as Intel provides a method to use 2,3 or 4 video cards on their chipsets and it becomes a popular standard that is supported by ATI and NVIDIA then AMD will probably need Intel to make chipsets for their CPU.

That will happen about the same time that the Intel and AMD fanboys on this forum agree on every issue.

a c 127 à CPUs
August 11, 2008 5:06:51 PM

^My point isn't about that. And they could just license the multi GPU technology to AMD just like AMD has licensed CFX to Intel.
August 11, 2008 5:09:18 PM

jimmysmitty said:
The business market is different. Businesses do not need high power. They just need to be able to run the basic programs and thats it.

BTW why should Intel havd a license for ATI chipsets if AMD does not havs a license for Intel to make chipsets for AMD CPUs?

I pondered why Intel would stop it and it makes sense. Why should Intel have AMD make them chipsets when AMD doesn't have Intel make them chipsets.

Anywho, there is no double standard for Intel. Its about the facts. Fact AMDs Barcy delay cost them a lot of money. Fact Intel keeps posting great profits. Results? AMDs stock goes down while Intels stock stays the same or goes up.

I would love to see the Puma results and see how "powerful" it is since I have yet to see it out in the market yet. Of course I would expect a discrete ATI GPU like the 3200 or 3400 to be faster than the G45 IGP.



I have an Intel laptop (at work - I'd NEVER buy one) and the redraws are horrendous. I can actually see it drawing one icon at a time on my XP desktop. AMD wouldn't be making the chipsets, they would own the company that makes them. Even if they dumped the ATi brand it would still be two different engr units. Puma is on Newegg right now and also in several brick and mortars like Best Buy and Circuit City. HD3200 is not a discrete chip. It's an IGP attached to the No Bridge.

Intel could have that very same IGP, but they said no, our customers only need something "fast enough." The funny thing is that when I said that about X2, I got called every name in the book. Double standards, I think so.
August 11, 2008 5:15:30 PM

jimmysmitty said:
^My point isn't about that. And they could just license the multi GPU technology to AMD just like AMD has licensed CFX to Intel.


Buy Low, Sell High.

I would buy AMD stock. But im Portuguese and all, ill keep investing in wine. Safest investment you can do !!!
a c 127 à CPUs
August 11, 2008 5:22:53 PM

You are right about the 3200. Its not truly discrete since it uses system RAM unlike the 3400 which uses its own seperate RAM.

Now are you basing that Puma being better on just the graphics performance? Or did you count CPU performance, power usage, battery life and all the other things that effect a laptop user more than graphics performance?

See the funny thing is that most laptops are not used for gaming. Yes you will get a bit of media playback for trips but you wont see them encoding, playing a HD movie and playing a game all at once. Thats also why the desktop is there because thats what most desktop users do.
August 11, 2008 10:54:01 PM

Quote:
I wonder what the excuse for their sagging stock price will be. I mean they demoed EUV, set records in Web, VM and SPEC, but still they are not getting any respect. Puma is a brilliant platform, 4800 series is the fastest single slot card (X2).

As others said, stock price is mainly based on financials. But good financials are built from a combination of good management and good products. The problem is AMD doesn't have very good products in most of its business.

A demo of EUV is nice, but how you get to a process node is secondary to arriving there first. AMD is currently at 65nm while Intel is basking in 45nm. That means AMD's CPU division is behind, as usual, and nothing around says they will suddenly catch up. When they intro 45nm, if Intel is still at 45nm, you can still expect process maturity concerns.

Setting records in server benchmarks with Barcelona is nice, for now, but notice what's around the corner? Will they be able to hold onto these records when Nehalem arrives, removing the Achilles' heel of Woodcrest and Harpertown systems, the FSB?

Puma is okay, but it's not that awesome when you think about it. It consumes a lot of power in a market where battery life and form factor are major selling points, not performance. The CPU is slower than Core 2, but that's not usually a big deal. The problem is that the graphics are unnecessarily faster than the business world needs, yet noticeably slower than discrete solutions. I understand they are marketing a "balanced" solution, but different markets demand different balances in CPU and GPU and overall power consumption, and Puma doesn't appear flexible to cater to them individually. So far it's catering to the budget-mainstream consumer who will trade some power consumption for lower system price.

On graphics, "fastest" is not a primary selling point of "single slot" cards, so your comment is more of a technical triumph. About the 4850, you could just have said it delivers unparalleled GPU price/performance, which most here would probably agree. Nvidia, however, seem to have turned complacent on AMD's buyout of ATI and then pulled a Netburst with their G200 series, so the next 6-12 months I hope the ATI division leverages that for some healthy market share and competition. I'm not the only one to say the 8800 stood up top for an eternity.

Quote:
I have an Intel laptop (at work - I'd NEVER buy one) and the redraws are horrendous. I can actually see it drawing one icon at a time on my XP desktop.

Graphics card isn't the bottleneck for redrawing individual icons; CPU and RAM are, or if there's too little RAM, the hard disk. It also depends on how many windows you have open and how complex they are.

As proof, try this simple test in Vista with a decent GPU. Disable Aero, forcing everything into 2D like XP, and leave on "show window contents while dragging." Vigorously move a blank browser window over a loaded explorer window and watch the redraw. Now enable Aero and do the same thing. Notice no more redraw problems?
August 11, 2008 11:41:41 PM

WR said:
Quote:
I wonder what the excuse for their sagging stock price will be. I mean they demoed EUV, set records in Web, VM and SPEC, but still they are not getting any respect. Puma is a brilliant platform, 4800 series is the fastest single slot card (X2).

As others said, stock price is mainly based on financials. But good financials are built from a combination of good management and good products. The problem is AMD doesn't have very good products in most of its business.

A demo of EUV is nice, but how you get to a process node is secondary to arriving there first. AMD is currently at 65nm while Intel is basking in 45nm. That means AMD's CPU division is behind, as usual, and nothing around says they will suddenly catch up. When they intro 45nm, if Intel is still at 45nm, you can still expect process maturity concerns.

Setting records in server benchmarks with Barcelona is nice, for now, but notice what's around the corner? Will they be able to hold onto these records when Nehalem arrives, removing the Achilles' heel of Woodcrest and Harpertown systems, the FSB?

Puma is okay, but it's not that awesome when you think about it. It consumes a lot of power in a market where battery life and form factor are major selling points, not performance. The CPU is slower than Core 2, but that's not usually a big deal. The problem is that the graphics are unnecessarily faster than the business world needs, yet noticeably slower than discrete solutions. I understand they are marketing a "balanced" solution, but different markets demand different balances in CPU and GPU and overall power consumption, and Puma doesn't appear flexible to cater to them individually. So far it's catering to the budget-mainstream consumer who will trade some power consumption for lower system price.

On graphics, "fastest" is not a primary selling point of "single slot" cards, so your comment is more of a technical triumph. About the 4850, you could just have said it delivers unparalleled GPU price/performance, which most here would probably agree. Nvidia, however, seem to have turned complacent on AMD's buyout of ATI and then pulled a Netburst with their G200 series, so the next 6-12 months I hope the ATI division leverages that for some healthy market share and competition. I'm not the only one to say the 8800 stood up top for an eternity.

Quote:
I have an Intel laptop (at work - I'd NEVER buy one) and the redraws are horrendous. I can actually see it drawing one icon at a time on my XP desktop.

Graphics card isn't the bottleneck for redrawing individual icons; CPU and RAM are, or if there's too little RAM, the hard disk. It also depends on how many windows you have open and how complex they are.

As proof, try this simple test in Vista with a decent GPU. Disable Aero, forcing everything into 2D like XP, and leave on "show window contents while dragging." Vigorously move a blank browser window over a loaded explorer window and watch the redraw. Now enable Aero and do the same thing. Notice no more redraw problems?




It's just amazing that people will ACTUALLY attempt to defend Intel's crayons - I mean IGPs. That's why AMD is behind. You're like zombies or something. People cursed em otu for sayingthat X2 was fast enough, and someone actually said G45 is "fast enough."



BAAAAHHHHHHH!

Yes, that's the sound of SHEEP.
a c 127 à CPUs
August 11, 2008 11:46:41 PM

^Says the guy who thinks just because the GPU is good they should be doing better in the stock market.

I would love to see you talking to a financial advisor and watch him laugh at you with your reasoning and logic.

Intel has never held the GPU crown yet they sell more IGPs than nVidia or ATI sells together. Why? Its cheap and does whats needed for the business. G45 is great for most tasks that most laptop users will do and since 90% of the time thats not gaming then thats great.

You call other people sheep yet you blindly follow AMD and believe every word they say.

Oh here is a great example. Ford has had the best selling car in the US for over 30 years. The F Series. Ford has been making better quality cars recently. You think their stock has gone up? No. Its been fluxuating between $6-$8 dollars. Why? Because they haven't shown a profit in a long time.
a b à CPUs
August 12, 2008 12:25:25 AM

Quote today from marketwatch.

Quote
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Moody's Investors Service late Monday downgraded the corporate family ratings of Advanced Micro Devices Inc. (AMD:Advanced Micro Devices, IncAMD 5.11, -0.02, -0.4%) to B2 from B1 because of ongoing operating losses. Moody's also cut the rating on a $390 million senior note due 2012 to B3 from B2. The outlook is negative. "Moody's believes that AMD will remain challenged to internally fund the advancement of its process capability and production capacity, which is essential to keep pace with competitor manufacturing cost reduction and process node advances," the ratings agency said in a statement.

End Quote'
August 12, 2008 12:25:37 AM

I don't understand which aspect of Puma is "amazing". Just as wr pointed out, the graphics solution is faster than what people usually need, so it will not become a huge selling point. Its slower than Centrino 2, dissipates more heat, and consumes more battery. Not to mention that people tend to recognize Centrino a lot better than "Puma", or "Turion X2 Ultra".

The biggest selling point might be its inexpensiveness, and its in no way "amazing", when Santa Rosa refresh is going for low 600 bucks market.
August 12, 2008 1:17:30 PM

jimmysmitty said:


Intel has never held the GPU crown yet they sell more IGPs than nVidia or ATI sells together. Why? Its cheap and does whats needed for the business. G45 is great for most tasks that most laptop users will do and since 90% of the time thats not gaming then thats great.

You call other people sheep yet you blindly follow AMD and believe every word they say.



There are lies, really big lies and then statistics.

Intel is counting as sales, the NB with graphics capabilities as well, but:

1 - They wont necessarily be used.
2 - They have internal capability (chipset) but it is impossible to use due to lack outputs. (vendor choice to reduce BOM)

People wont blindly believe AMD. There are always tools and fanatics, but that, you get them has Trekkies and Pringles addicts. Now, some things you really got to take them with a grain of salt.

@yomamafor1

Ive seen the Price to the Public, and Montevina it is going nowhere near 600bucks/eurobucks. Santa Rosa on the other hand is start to reach the 700€. But it is more likely to be the surplus units. If you really want a cheaper laptop, you go with Turion. Some use Nvidia and others ATI IGPs that surprass the more expensive (150-250€/$) Intel based laptops.
I believe if you would search for 1 expecific example you could contradict me, but look to the market as a whole and you will see I am correct.

@jimmy

Quote:
Intel has never held the GPU crown yet they sell more IGPs than nVidia or ATI sells together. Why? Its cheap and does whats needed for the business. G45 is great for most tasks that most laptop users will do and since 90% of the time that's not gaming then great.


We usually don't disagree much, but have you ever seen the Diablo 3 trailers on the web with a X3100 ? The CPUs just glue at 100% and visualization of the same movies suck big time. The X3100 (or intel IGPs) fail miserably in several day to day tasks. I use 360Desktop, a freeware app here in my work, and i can tell you the ATI x1550 is helping out a lot. Several colleagues of mine with Intel IGPs couldn't get it to work decently.A Intel IGP isn't good for day-to-day-use. Only if you use MS Office and the very limited IE. A bit of multi-tasking, a bit of tweaking, and you find out why people shell out 40-60$/€ in a 8500/8400/3450/3650. Intel IGP crawls to power point standards with a bit of load. And no, im not talking about gaming/video decoding here. Just good old multi-tasking.

About stock prices, don't talk about electronics stocks please. People don't like to invest in such a volatile market. People like "money in the bank". Not literally, but they prefer low-risk investments.

Edit: calling Intel IGPs PowerPoint is a such a cliché, i know, but to the use, in this we case, we give them in work, it is what i can call them.
a c 127 à CPUs
August 12, 2008 1:26:16 PM

^Yea if you put a new game with newer graphics and that will have a lot of things on it sure a IGP wont do it. But thats my point. Laptop users normally don't game. Most laptops are used for school work and work. Those who play games on a laptop usually buy a Alienware or the like with a true discrete GPU.

August 12, 2008 1:47:28 PM

jimmysmitty said:
^Yea if you put a new game with newer graphics and that will have a lot of things on it sure a IGP wont do it. But thats my point. Laptop users normally don't game. Most laptops are used for school work and work. Those who play games on a laptop usually buy a Alienware or the like with a true discrete GPU.


You would also be surprised about it. People don't expect heavy gaming from their lappys, but they expect some gaming.
Remembering the sales of last year (im no longer in the distribution business), and the clients from last year also, people were starting to look for RAM/IGP/CPU in that order. Joe Consumer is getting more educated. Lappys with a X1600 or a X1200 or something from Nvidia would fly (in terms of sales) compared with Intel IGPs ones. Really.

Never forget, enthusiasts bought Crysis and it sold one million copies, light gamers play WoW.......... and it keeps rocking.
A discussable example, but a fine one for the point being made i guess.

PS: I remembered even a LG (lappy) model that came equipped with a X1400 512mb dedicated. We lowered the price due to EOL in stock, and keep it in line with his category. Sold like candy when we had Intel IGPs from more "mainstream" brands and lower price point (and with a overall better specs, except the IGP/GPU). Joe Consumer does value a good IGP. And it is highly valuable.
a c 127 à CPUs
August 12, 2008 1:55:01 PM

Trust me I agree that a discrete GPU is better than a IGP. That I will never argue against.

What I am saying is that the G45 is showing the ability to play HD movies in a normal scenario that most people will do which is just the movie. I have never seen a person on a laptop watching a HD movie and doing other CPU intensive tasks. Most would pause the movie and do what they need to do then go back.

BM is trying to say its not able to with a link that obviously shows a uneven test setup so we don't get to see true results. That plus not knowing the specs of each laptop makes it even harder to discern if the tests were even.

I myself will never get a IGP. But I built a machine for my grandparents with a G33 and a E6550 (not sure what CPU) and its able to run a lot of IE 7.0, watch movies and do other normal tasks. I wouldn't trust it with gaming though, thats the discrete GPUs strong point. But they don't need it so it worked out for them since it cost me $400 to build for them.

Bleh this is getting repetative.
August 12, 2008 1:59:10 PM

jimmysmitty said:
^Says the guy who thinks just because the GPU is good they should be doing better in the stock market.

I would love to see you talking to a financial advisor and watch him laugh at you with your reasoning and logic.

Intel has never held the GPU crown yet they sell more IGPs than nVidia or ATI sells together. Why? Its cheap and does whats needed for the business. G45 is great for most tasks that most laptop users will do and since 90% of the time thats not gaming then thats great.

You call other people sheep yet you blindly follow AMD and believe every word they say.

Oh here is a great example. Ford has had the best selling car in the US for over 30 years. The F Series. Ford has been making better quality cars recently. You think their stock has gone up? No. Its been fluxuating between $6-$8 dollars. Why? Because they haven't shown a profit in a long time.



I never said that. I said they have been innovating and producing great products after the pain of the ATi acquisition. I have never paid much attention to anyone to change my opinion. I always say they are my preferred vendor. Period.

Competition in the auto industry is nothing like competition in x86. There are TWO x86 companies and how many car companies?

And you're back to the same argument that wasn't reasonable for X2. Intel's graphics suck. My machine a Turion with 6150 GeForce (2+ years old) doesn't have the redraw lag that the Core 2 I use does. The Core 2 has 2X the RAM and they both are loaded similarly.
a c 127 à CPUs
August 12, 2008 2:16:10 PM

^I never said X2 was not good enough. But if a person asks me whats the best performance for a NEW build then I will go with Core 2. If they have a preference I cater to that hence why I just helped a friend build a Phenom system with a SB750 mobo.

But you are saying that G45 is useless when most laptop users are not gamers. Some do and for that they should still go with a discrete GPU like a X1900 mobile or equvalent from ATI/nVidia.

As for your work system there is something more wrong with it. I have a system I built for my grandparents with a E6550 and a G33 chipset with a IGP and 2GB of DDR2 and it NEVER has the redraw or lag on IE 7.0
August 12, 2008 3:20:13 PM

jimmysmitty said:
^I never said X2 was not good enough. But if a person asks me whats the best performance for a NEW build then I will go with Core 2. If they have a preference I cater to that hence why I just helped a friend build a Phenom system with a SB750 mobo.

But you are saying that G45 is useless when most laptop users are not gamers. Some do and for that they should still go with a discrete GPU like a X1900 mobile or equvalent from ATI/nVidia.

As for your work system there is something more wrong with it. I have a system I built for my grandparents with a E6550 and a G33 chipset with a IGP and 2GB of DDR2 and it NEVER has the redraw or lag on IE 7.0



The Brood said that. I didn't say "and JimmySmittty." I'm not talking about games but if you mention WoW, that is a game that IGPs should be able to play. Intel IGPs can't even render properly. I posted a link to the video at YouTube in the Puma thread.

JUST ADMIT THAT INTEL'S GRAPHICS SUCK. EVERYONE ELSE HAS. WAKE UP.


That doesn't mean they have to kill themselves, it means that when you buy Intel graphics you are getting ripped off basically. As someone said, if I open a lot of windows, things do slow down. When I said redraw I mentioned icons, not IE. It would be difficult to separate graphics from network based on IE redraws.
a c 127 à CPUs
August 12, 2008 3:28:19 PM

I meant everything in redraw it does great. The icons never have to slowly redraw nothing does. And thats good for what they do.

Intels IGP sucks for gaming as I have said many times. But for laptops, what you used for your main argument in that video, they do what most people need.

You need to admit that the G45 is good for what it does. It plays HD fine, it does simple tasks and that even the 3200/3450 is not a viable gaming solution. Its great at low quality on a 5 year old game (HL2) @ 1024x768 but WoW would take more than that.
August 12, 2008 5:02:59 PM

radnor said:

@yomamafor1

Ive seen the Price to the Public, and Montevina it is going nowhere near 600bucks/eurobucks. Santa Rosa on the other hand is start to reach the 700€. But it is more likely to be the surplus units. If you really want a cheaper laptop, you go with Turion. Some use Nvidia and others ATI IGPs that surprass the more expensive (150-250€/$) Intel based laptops.
I believe if you would search for 1 expecific example you could contradict me, but look to the market as a whole and you will see I am correct.



That's not exactly true, at least in the United States. Both HP and Dell offer Santa Rosa platform well into the low 500~600 range. Acer (or Packard Bell) also offers Santa Rosa laptops in the 500 range.

So to conclude, it is true that AMD has more presence in the low end market, but that doesn't mean it reigns free in that segment. Especially when Centrino laptops going as low as 599 USD, along with Intel's marketing, its really difficult for Puma to actually acquire a sizeable portion of the laptop market.
August 12, 2008 5:27:59 PM

BaronMatrix said:
The Brood said that. I didn't say "and JimmySmittty." I'm not talking about games but if you mention WoW, that is a game that IGPs should be able to play. Intel IGPs can't even render properly. I posted a link to the video at YouTube in the Puma thread.

JUST ADMIT THAT INTEL'S GRAPHICS SUCK. EVERYONE ELSE HAS. WAKE UP.


That doesn't mean they have to kill themselves, it means that when you buy Intel graphics you are getting ripped off basically. As someone said, if I open a lot of windows, things do slow down. When I said redraw I mentioned icons, not IE. It would be difficult to separate graphics from network based on IE redraws.


Yup, totally unplayable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeGok2zdMXA&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6X3K2Rkh1E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqDqf9RIA94&feature=related

and WoW on Intel IGP is just simply horrible!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhMOMQBvy0Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZTL1bPZg-U&feature=related

What ever were we thinking? Intel's IGP does suck for laptop gaming! There should be a recall of all Intel IGPs, since they did claim that their IGPs were made for gaming and these videos show that they cannot game at all.

August 12, 2008 6:16:06 PM

NMDante said:
Yup, totally unplayable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeGok2zdMXA&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6X3K2Rkh1E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqDqf9RIA94&feature=related

and WoW on Intel IGP is just simply horrible!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhMOMQBvy0Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZTL1bPZg-U&feature=related

What ever were we thinking? Intel's IGP does suck for laptop gaming! There should be a recall of all Intel IGPs, since they did claim that their IGPs were made for gaming and these videos show that they cannot game at all.




I'm using Intel graphics right now. They suck. I did a test with Excel of resizing cells and there was a nice delay with XP\Excel 2003 and a small file. I used a larger file with XP\Excel 2007(more resource hungry) and half the RAM and got NO delay on my 1.6 Turion w\6150.

Besides, the last time I put up videos from YouTube, I was told they were homemade and didn't count (double standards anyone - you all just prove WHY you're sheep and why I will never buy Intel). I'll have to look later as our network is SLOWWWWW. But I've seen several tests vs AMD systems and the Intel system sucked.

Also, EVERYONE KNOWS Intels graphics suck. I'm actually late to the party.
August 12, 2008 6:20:27 PM

I have a Toshiba laptop with a 17" screen and an Intel IGP. Plays WoW just fine... even on the highest resolution possible with that screen. It's no screamer, to be sure, but it does what's asked of it. I'm not going to be playing COD4 on it anytime soon... but then that's why I built my desktop system.
a c 127 à CPUs
August 12, 2008 6:30:35 PM

^He wont believe it. You should make a video of that and that way its proof.

BM your second 2 videos were of course made by AMD thus its hard to trust them. If you were a company and made a video about your new hardware would you say how great the competition is? No you would make sure your product looks better.

If those two were from say a reliable PC hardware site then they would have more credability.

Same goes for the video with the two systems you posted. And not only the fact that that video was made by AMD but they were obviously handicapping the Intel system.

I will watch the videos when I get home because it takes 15-20 minutes to load one at work. But then I will judge the videos.
!