1 or 2 new rigs?

[mojoroc]

First post, relatively new reader of these boards... gotta say I really appreciate the wealth of good information here.

First a little background: I am a pretty heavy user of computers. Gaming: MMO addict (WOW currently, Warhammer when it comes out too). Work: extensive graphics (i.e. Adobe Creative Suite), workflow, project mgmt, and presentations (a LOT of this). Home: high-end digital photography and some low-end HD video, some web development and programming. Now, in the past, I have generally tried to separate gaming from all other stuff, building 2 rigs instead of 1 that can do it all. This hasn't been so much a HW issue as it has been a safety issue - can't have my gaming goodness potentially impact the critical work stuff.

So fast forward to today... both my current rigs are having major issues, and I suspect it is due to them both having very similar builds (the only difference is the RAID configuration), and more specifically, both are using geforce 7900 GTX in SLI (and Asus A8N32 SLI Deluxe, 2G DDR400 PC3200 RAM, Enermax 620W PSU, Athlon FX-60, Thermaltake Armor full tower case, SB X-Fi Plat, and Arctic Freezer Pro 64). Basically both rigs are locking up / freezing and becoming increasingly unreliable. For example, the gaming rig which has been able to run 2 instances of WOW without any hickups is now crashing to BSOD, or else just freezing. Strangely, the work comp is also doing the same without any gameplay - eventually the screen just locks or doesn't come back from the black screen even though the PC is still powered on. I have literally spent weeks trying to diagnose various things (from cooling to drivers to RAM to BIOS to MB to malware/virus to other components) and all are showing clear except the inevitable graphic lockups. Some research has basically told me that the most likely cause are the 7900 GTX cards, and that I may have even been lucky to get 2 solid years out of them... and also that the nvidia mobo is apparently a very moody animal. Anyway, I digress... Ironically, despite my anger with the nvidia cards, I have ordered a temporary replacement for the 7900 GTX cards atm: 8800 GT until I build new rigs. Hoping this will get me the fix till then.

Now at the time (little over 2 years ago), these rigs were considered pretty high-end. Problem was I went with stuff (specifically mobo and gfx cards) that turned out to be less than reliable. I definitely do not want to do that again. Furthermore, it seems that the much safer route is to get a mid-range system with proven HW, spend less money and potentially upgrade/rebuild more often? I can say with pretty high certainty that I am not gonna be building any leading edge / high-end stuff again... what an incredible money sink.

So, what do you guys think? Is my original precaution of separating gaming and all else into 2 rigs still appropriate? Seems like it would be. Also, should the rig build be different for each if I stick with this philosophy? If so, any suggestions are welcome.

Equipment guidlines that I am thinking of living with:
** stay away from Athlon CPU (Intel seems to be just way better these days), prolly a no-brainer atm
** stay away from nvidia mobos
** stay away from nvidia graphic cards (not so sure about this last one, but I am pretty pissed atm)
** stay away from Asus mobos??
** wide open on PSU, RAM, and other suggestions. Oh, and it seems that RAID seems less useful than I used to think (still have my server configured this way, but desktop RAID might be overkill)

 

[assasin32]

I personally see no point in having 2 exact same computers just to do 2 separate things when your the only one using them. If you had 2 complete different setups, yeah I can see it being plausible to have 2 different computers (like one built for work and another built for gaming).

But if I were you I would build one good mid-range build with the intent to last a 2-3 years before being upgraded, and set up a duel OS on the computer each with the raid configuration you want on them.

As for the equipment guild lines:
1) Intel seems to be currently leading the pack.
2) can't comment, as I don't know much
3) Currently the 4850 and 4870 and a better bang for the buck compared to the Nvidia equivalent.
4) also can't comment mobo's aren't my specialty.
5) As for configurations of your computer try reading a couple pages in the home built forum, you get a better idea of what to get and what's out there than I can type in this box.

 

[aevm]

Let me get this straight, you built a work computer, for no gaming at all, with 7900GTX SLI? Too bad - you paid several hundred bucks more than you had to, and paid a lot extra in electricity bills too.

For your work machine: use RAID 1 or no RAID at all. Do not use RAID 0, it puts your data at risk. Also, don't use SLI or even 8800GT. Just get a medium-range card, not a gaming card. A $40 HD 3450 or a $70 HD 3650 would be fine, for example.

For your gaming machine: a single HD 4870 would be a big improvement over 7900GTX SLI, and it avoids all the nonsense of multi-GPU. Two HD 4870 would handle even Crysis properly, IMO (as in, 46 fps at 1280x1024 with all the eye candy).

Your motherboard is a socket 939. That means it's a dead end, you can't upgrade the CPU unless you replace the motherboard too.

I suggest a Q6600 for each machine. Maybe a Q9450 for the work machine, if you use any software with SSE4.

For the gaming machine: a GA-EP43-DS3L motherboard:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128347&Tpk=GA-EP43-DS3L
This motherboard will not support either RAID or Crossfire. If you want them then GA-EX38-DS4.

Don't get Crossfire for your work machine, that would be a waste. Get a GA-EP35-DS3R for that machine. It has RAID, by the way, if you want RAID 1.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128086

PSU: 750TX for the gaming machine, existing Enermax for the work machine.

RAM: 2x2GB DDR2-800 for each.

Edit: about the main question, 1 or 2 rigs. You only need a $200 CPU/$100MB/$40 video card/$80 RAM for the work machine. That's a very small price to pay for peace of mind, if your income comes from that machine. I'd pay it.

 

[geofelt]

I think you have it figured out about right.

Are your PC's clear of dust? That can cause your symptoms.

Two computers seems like a good thing to me. You have backup for your work machine, and can check out any updates or changes on your play machine first. When a new, better, generation arrives, build it on your play machine first.

Some guideline thoughts:
1)Intel is much better today, and probably more so when nehalem arrives.
2)Intel chipsets seem to be a bit more stable today. I think P35,P45 , X38, x45 are all good.
Gigabyte, and Asus mobo's should be good. For stability, Intel is also very good.
3)I would stick to a single vga card, unless you need more vga power than a single vga card can deliver.
sli/crossfire make pc's hotter and more complex.
Dual monitors don't work with sli/crossfire.
4)I have no problem with either NVIDIA or ATI, now that the prices are more competitive. It is better to stick with one, or the other. Upgrading to a different vendor is more complex because of cleaning up the opposite drivers.
5)I would avoid raid. For simplicity and performance, you can't beat the WD velociraptor today.
6)Get plenty of RAM, particularly since you do lots of multitasking. 4gb at a minimum, but 8gb is better, and is cheap today. Speed is not important. DDR2-800 is fine.
7)Don't overclock. You probably don't need it. Stability is good.
8)Get a good PSU up front. Something like the PC P&C silencer 750. It should last for several generations.
9)Go to dual monitors with the best and largest units you can afford. They will last a good while, and dual monitors are a wonderful productivity upgrade.

---good luck---

 

[ausch30]

All suggestions above are good but I was thinking that you might be better off just getting one mid-range system and ripping your 2 other systems apart to produce a backup system. You would have a solid comuter which you can do everything on and with regular backups to your backup system (consider it like a file server where you save all your important data) then you don't have to worry about data corruption or loss and if your main system goes down you still have a backup to use until it's fixed.

As for your golden rules
-Intel has been much better for the last couple years, AMD is coming back but they still have a long way to go.
-Nvidia chipsets are garbage, Intel chipsets are much more stable and less expensive.
-Price/performance wise ATI 4850 and 4870 are king
-Asus makes very good motherboards except for the aforementioned Nvidia based boards.
-PSU's are one of the most important part of the system and there are a lot of good brands but they all make good and not so good products so look for a particular model rather than brand. RAM is the same thing, just remember that the standard for DDR2 is 1.8v and speeds of 400, 533, 667 and 800. Anything sold at anything other than that is sold at it's overclocked speed so just be careful and look around. Raid is a bad idea especially with terabyte hard drives ~$200 or 750gb drives ~130. For data integrity and security you should go with single drives and make sure SMART is enabled. Running Scan Disk regularly will also help to ensure your data doesn't get ruined and inform you of any problems as they occur.

 

[mojoroc]

Thanks for the quick replies already!!

One question though about the work comp... even though the true "work" that gets done is fairly graphic intensive at times, it is the home graphics that really push the limits of the rig - think 3 Photoshop filters applied to a very large digital image. If any of you have real experience with higher end digital photography and editing, I would love some additional input for build "minimums".

 

[ausch30]

Have you ever thought about building a work station with a Quadro or FireGL rather than using gaming cards, although they are much more expensive that's what their designed for.

 

[mojoroc]

Have you ever thought about building a work station with a Quadro or FireGL rather than using gaming cards, although they are much more expensive that's what their designed for.

Can't say I have... would be a new experience for sure - do any of the fundamentals change other than chaning the vid vard?

 

[aevm]

I think Photoshop depends on the CPU, not the GPU. I've seen benchmarks showing it does better on quads than on higher-clocked dual-cores, by the way.

 

[ausch30]

I think Photoshop depends on the CPU, not the GPU. I've seen benchmarks showing it does better on quads than on higher-clocked dual-cores, by the way.

It's just something I thought of and then I did a little looking around and it does make more use of the CPU rather than the GPU making use of the SSE instructions and multiple cores so I think your previous suggestion of a inexpensive video card coupled with a fast quad (something like the Q9450) and a lot of fast RAM would be the best option.

 

[mojoroc]

I got some homework to do it seems... gonna go mull over 2 possible builds based on this feedback. I will post them here when I have my arms around the major components

 

[geofelt]

If one of your builds will use a Quad, it might be good to point toward a nahalem cpu, coming at the end of the year. They will include hyperthreading which is a massive increase in multicore enabled software.

 

[ausch30]

If one of your builds will use a Quad, it might be good to point toward a nahalem cpu, coming at the end of the year. They will include hyperthreading which is a massive increase in multicore enabled software.

I was just thinking the same thing, Nehalem with DDR3 would run circles around what you could build today but there won't be full availability of Nehalem until spring of next year. They are supposed to begin production during Q4 of this year and I'm sure the only chip released before the new year will be the Extreme processors. Over the first few months of 2009 they'll start trickling the chips out just like the did with Penryn.

 

[mojoroc]

Given that I have to most likely replace both rigs now, I am leaning towards building two solid mid-range machines with proven parts (geared towards the specific use)... Mebbe a year after the new CPUs/mobos have been out, I can look at a reasonable upgrade path. At this point, I am very leery about jumping on anything brand new.

 

[ausch30]

Given that I have to most likely replace both rigs now, I am leaning towards building a solid mid-range machine with proven parts... Mebbe a year after the new CPUs/mobos have been out, I can look at a reasonable upgrade path. At this point, I am very leery about jumping on anything brand new.

when it comes to this hobby you are always looking to the next big thing. A solid upper mid rage system would be a night and day improvement over what you have so you'll be fine without Nehalem.

 

[halcyon]

I would build one higher end rig and use virtualization software (VMWare WKS) for the work stuff and saved a lot of $$. Today, with a mid-end quad core (Q9450) and 8GB of RAM you could easily have more than enough power to get it all done one rig.

I think you'd be blown away at the power of VMWare on solid hardware.

 

[roadrunner197069]

Dont hate on Asus motherboards. Just dont get one with Nvidia chipsets. Asus is good bud Nvidia chipsets are crap.

Asus with Intel chipsets are great.

 

[mojoroc]

Ermm... perhaps a goofy question, but what kind of HD should I be looking at? SATA or IDE?

 

[geofelt]

SATA!
cabling is easier
faster
all new hard drives are sata

 

[Mousemonkey]

IDE is dead, long live SATA.

 

[FrozenGpu]

Ermm... perhaps a goofy question, but what kind of HD should I be looking at? SATA or IDE?

since u apparently have the money, look at velociraptors, WD3000GLFS I think is the WD part number.

If you need more storage look at the 7200.11 series or even better the ES.2 from seagate

 

[ausch30]

I would suggest the 1Tb Seagate 7200.11 drives. I have 2 of the 500gb 7200.11's and they are very fast and quiet.

 

[aevm]

I like the WD6400AAKS. Very fast and very cheap per GB. Seagate is good too, but you pay more for the 5 year warranty.

The velociraptor is VERY nice, but overkill for gaming IMO. Could be a great idea for the work machine.

 

[mojoroc]

What are the best heatsink options for a daul core and also for a quad core?

 

[FrozenGpu]

I like the WD6400AAKS. Very fast and very cheap per GB. Seagate is good too, but you pay more for the 5 year warranty.

The velociraptor is VERY nice, but overkill for gaming IMO. Could be a great idea for the work machine.

see thats the thing he should just combine both machines into one, and then the use for the velociraptor will be worth it.

Zalman has an amazing line of heatsinks, like the ZALMAN CNPS9700, simply one of the best, period!for the high end. [60-70ish]

thermaltake blue orb II is a very good mid-end solution, great cooling can reach some amazing overclocks with it, so it is pretty great, and the price can sometimes be a little high [35-4ish], but defiently a great cooler.

the arctic cooling freezer 7 is a must if cash is a little tight, amazing cooler for the price, can still achieve some really nice o/c w/ it, [23-35ish]

again those are just some the HSf I have used in the past and there are many more that do the job really well like the tuniq tower, or other equivalents.