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Socket AM3 versus socket G34: AM3 short lifespan?

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September 4, 2008 4:36:31 PM

I'm currently running a couple of socket 939 systems (Opteron 185 and an X2 4400). They continue to serve me well though I am interesting in upgrading towards the end of the year as my system can barely handle Oblivion for crying out loud. I don't game that much but still you know it'd be nice to get at least 30FPS at 1920x1200 with most things turned up...for an older game. >__>

I have read that AMD's upcoming 12 core CPU will not use socket AM3 but instead use socket G34...WTF? I haven't even heard about this new socket until today.

I'm not finding any information that shows the relation between socket AM3 and socket G34. If AM3's lifespan will be only a year I'll be stuck with the short end of the stick if I upgrade there. I'm not interested in the upgrade issues with Intel as I typically buy a socket, get a cheaper CPU, and later on upgrade to a high end CPU when the prices start falling to a reasonable level. Or is the G34 a dual-socket system? Will socket AM3 see 12 core CPU's or is AMD going to continue to mess around? Seriously, where are the dual-quad cores to slap Intel in the face for AM2 just like how Intel slapped AMD in the face with it's dual-dual core (AKA "quad" core).

Fan boys need not reply, I'm just trying to make sense of the socket road ahead of us. An advanced thanks to those who provide useful information. ;) 
September 4, 2008 4:47:55 PM

I THINK i read that G34 would be for servers and AM3 will be for desktops.
Could be completely wrong though. AM2+'s life span seems short too
September 4, 2008 4:50:09 PM

Well, i share most of your concerns when i assemble a rig. I guess AM3 will live a bit more than just 1 year. Deneb core although improved above Barcelona, wont be a ballistic improvement.

Bulldozer on the other hand might be, or might be vaporware. Still too soon to know. I guess it will last at least 2 years. The motherboards should start being announced soon enough and the CPU will come un Jan09. Bulldozer imho will only come late 2010 or 2011. And if it will be monster i believe it will be, it will be expensive.

So you Deneb should be fine. A bit of flame to the Intel Fanboys (because the op is going to be flamed to buy a intel, so i divert flame to meh) how good will a 8 threaded CPU with 8 "logical" Cores deal with SINGLE threaded apps ?

Sound corny doesn't it ?
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September 4, 2008 4:59:04 PM

AM3 is the successor to the AM2/AM2+ on the Desktop market. G34 is the successor to Socket 1207/1207+ (socket F)on the server and multiprocessor market. Won't likely see G34 until AMD gets done with their new HT3.1 server chipset.
September 4, 2008 6:02:13 PM

i'm not that excited about nehalem now.... I think a cheapend lineup of penryn will do me fine though :D  (wishing for q9650 to replace my e2160)
September 4, 2008 6:06:21 PM

Given the compatability betweeb AM2, AM2+ and AM3 - I think there has been plenty lifespan in the socket. Better than the various versions of socket 775 we have seen over the years.
September 4, 2008 6:37:18 PM

when are am3 boards coming out? nehalem is supposed to be out ocotber 2008 as stated by wikipedia....AMD can't come late to this battle...plus i need a new processor my 3600+ isn't quick enough for me...
a c 127 à CPUs
September 4, 2008 7:33:43 PM

jamesgoddard said:
Given the compatability betweeb AM2, AM2+ and AM3 - I think there has been plenty lifespan in the socket. Better than the various versions of socket 775 we have seen over the years.


G34, from what I have read, will be a completely different pin count so I am doubting any G34 chips will be backwards compatable with AM3, AM2/2+.

S775 has been fine really. There have only been 4 chipset families and all of them support the early Core 2 CPUs and 3 of them will support Penryn. Thats not half bad really.

teh_boxzor said:
when are am3 boards coming out? nehalem is supposed to be out ocotber 2008 as stated by wikipedia....AMD can't come late to this battle...plus i need a new processor my 3600+ isn't quick enough for me...


I think it should be out with Deneb (not sure of the release date but have heard January 2009) from what I have heard since Deneb will support DDR3 and thats what AM3 is for is DDR3. An interesting thing I have heard about AM3 though is that AM3 CPUs will work on AM2+ (remember dependant on the mobo maker for full support) but AM2/AM2+ CPUs will not work on AM3. More than likely its due to the AM2 chips not having a DDR3 memory controller.
September 4, 2008 8:08:04 PM

AM3 chips will (given BIOS updates) work on any AM2 and AM2+ mobo

a c 127 à CPUs
September 4, 2008 9:03:02 PM

^Thats what I said.

My other part is that AM2 based chips will not work on AM3 mobos because AM3 mobos are going to be DDR3 only. Maybe some mobo companies will create a hybrid setup like they did with Intels (both DDR2 and DDR3) but since DDR3 is getting lower in price, by January of 2009 when Deneb is released and probably when AM3 is released DDR3 will more than likely be cheap enough to not need a hybrid setup.
September 4, 2008 9:06:26 PM

jimmysmitty said:
An interesting thing I have heard about AM3 though is that AM3 CPUs will work on AM2+ (remember dependant on the mobo maker for full support) but AM2/AM2+ CPUs will not work on AM3. More than likely its due to the AM2 chips not having a DDR3 memory controller.


Yeap.


If you've an AM2+ board, you can upgrade to the Deneb - but you'll have to stick with DDR2.


If you've an AM3 board, you need to use a Deneb (or K10.5) as you need to use DD3 and need the mem controller to deal with it.

Apparently different pins activate different IMCs, so I suppose if there is a switch on the mobo, the manufacturer can make a hybrid... but would they want to?


a c 127 à CPUs
September 4, 2008 9:10:39 PM

^I would guess the one downside to using Deneb on a AM2+ mobo is that you will be stuck not using HTT 3.0 (or are they going for HTT 3.1 with AM3?) and lowering the potential of the chip a bit.

Not that it matters that much but when I buy a new CPU I tend to just build whole new system that way I can utilize the full power of the CPU and also take advantage of other new technologies that will help such as SATA3, which I hear is going to be coming with Nehalem.

BTW is AM3 set to support SATA3? That would be awesome seeing as hard drives are one of the biggest bottlenecks in any computer system.
September 4, 2008 9:42:41 PM

^ Too bad hard drives don't even come close to the 3gb/s standard that SATA II is rated for. It wouldn't make a big difference...
September 4, 2008 9:44:58 PM

SATA3 will ONLY! benefit SSD ordinary HDD wouldnt benefit from it.its a physical limitation unless the recording technology makes a big leap!
September 4, 2008 9:56:14 PM

Does htt speed really make that big a difference?
Hmm think my next system will be AMD
September 5, 2008 3:21:54 AM

jimmysmitty said:
G34, from what I have read, will be a completely different pin count so I am doubting any G34 chips will be backwards compatable with AM3, AM2/2+.


You are correct that the pin count on G34 is much different, however G34 is the successor to socket F (server chips) as Mathos said earlier, not socket AM3. I have not heard of a successor for AM3 yet, which likely means that it will be in service for at least 2 years.
September 5, 2008 5:16:38 AM

HTT 3 won't make a huge impact on CPU performance on AM2+ boards. ive seen articles that show no bottlenecks in athlon x2 system until HTT hits 500mhz or below.
September 5, 2008 5:32:49 AM

jimmysmitty said:
^I would guess the one downside to using Deneb on a AM2+ mobo is that you will be stuck not using HTT 3.0 (or are they going for HTT 3.1 with AM3?) and lowering the potential of the chip a bit.

Not that it matters that much but when I buy a new CPU I tend to just build whole new system that way I can utilize the full power of the CPU and also take advantage of other new technologies that will help such as SATA3, which I hear is going to be coming with Nehalem.

BTW is AM3 set to support SATA3? That would be awesome seeing as hard drives are one of the biggest bottlenecks in any computer system.


Well, the phenoms use HTT 3.0, just not anywhere near it's full speed. Even the 9950 only runs HTT at 2ghz(4G/T). HTT 3.0 is capable of 2.6ghz (5.2g/t), but it's currently limited by the HTT not being able to run at a higher clock than the IMC. Granted from that article about HTT 3.1 it should only take a firmware update to allow current systems to run HTT 3.1 speeds, which are suppose to be up to 3 or 3.2ghz max. Shanghai is HTT 3.1 enabled, which means Deneb will most likely have it enabled too. But if they're capable of taking advantage of HTT3.1, it makes me wonder if they aren't doing something to speed up the IMC/L3, which would explain a slight amount of the IPC gain.

I wouldn't worry too much about SATA3 till SSD drives get to decent caps and reasonable prices. Even then all AMD needs to do is release a new Southbridge to support it.
a c 127 à CPUs
September 5, 2008 9:02:06 AM

^True the new southbridge support would include it. But too bad if they wont include it with some SATAII ports for future use since Nehalem should have it and hopefully SSDs come down in price and go up in space by Deneb.

The only reason why I say include it with SATAII is because when SATA first came out I did some research on it (I even bought one of the first mobos with SATA the P4PE from Asus) and SATAI & II are supposed to use the same connector but SATAIII is supposed to change it.

But I haven't heard anything yet so I don't know for sure.
a c 99 à CPUs
September 5, 2008 1:17:37 PM

jimmysmitty said:
G34, from what I have read, will be a completely different pin count so I am doubting any G34 chips will be backwards compatable with AM3, AM2/2+.


Socket G34 has 1974 lands, so it is a *completely* different socket than the ~940-pin units AMD has been using (socket 940/939/AM2/AM2+/AM3) and the 1207-land Socket F. Here's an article about G34 with a drawing of the socket:

http://www.dailytech.com/Hello+AMD+Socket+G34/article12...

Quote:
S775 has been fine really. There have only been 4 chipset families and all of them support the early Core 2 CPUs and 3 of them will support Penryn. Thats not half bad really.


There have been five Intel socket 775 chipset families:

(0. 865/875: these were really socket 478 chipsets, but some were LGA 775 and support Conroes. I'm not including it in my tally.)
1. 915/925: only support single-core P4s
2. 945/955: some 945s support Conroes and Penryns
3. 965/975: most boards with these support most socket 775 processors
4. 30-series: supports Core 2s
5. 40-series: supports Core 2s

That's not even counting VIA, SIS, ATi, or NVIDIA chipsets, several of which do not support Core 2s.

Quote:
I think it should be out with Deneb (not sure of the release date but have heard January 2009) from what I have heard since Deneb will support DDR3 and thats what AM3 is for is DDR3. An interesting thing I have heard about AM3 though is that AM3 CPUs will work on AM2+ (remember dependant on the mobo maker for full support) but AM2/AM2+ CPUs will not work on AM3. More than likely its due to the AM2 chips not having a DDR3 memory controller.


From what I've read, the AM3 CPUs have 938 pins- one of the two-pin pinless blocks in the AM2 socket has been expanded to four pins. This allows for you to put a socket AM3 CPU in an older AM2 board (two pin holes in the socket have no pins in them), but the AM2 CPUs will not fit in the AM3 boards because two pins will hit one of the blocked-off areas in the socket. It's the reverse of Socket 603 and 604 Xeons, where you could put an older Socket 603 chip in a newer 604 board but not a newer 604 processor in the older 603 boards due to an extra pin.

blackwidow_rsa said:
Does htt speed really make that big a difference?
Hmm think my next system will be AMD


HT speed in itself only makes a difference in multi-socket socket F Opteron setups as it carries CPU-to-CPU data. On the desktop, all it does is talk to the chipset and that takes little bandwidth. However, the HT link speed on Phenoms is tied to the northbridge/IMC/L3 speed and that DOES make a difference in performance. So a 2.6 GHz HT link speed would yield better performance than a 2.0 GHz HT link speed only because your NB/IMC/L3 speed is 600 MHz faster, not because the actual HT link was saturated.
a c 127 à CPUs
September 6, 2008 4:20:55 AM

MU_Engineer said:


There have been five Intel socket 775 chipset families:

(0. 865/875: these were really socket 478 chipsets, but some were LGA 775 and support Conroes. I'm not including it in my tally.)
1. 915/925: only support single-core P4s
2. 945/955: some 945s support Conroes and Penryns
3. 965/975: most boards with these support most socket 775 processors
4. 30-series: supports Core 2s
5. 40-series: supports Core 2s

That's not even counting VIA, SIS, ATi, or NVIDIA chipsets, several of which do not support Core 2s.



Um technically family wise only 4. The late 8XX series, the 9XX series and now the 3 and 4 series. You could technically count the P965 and P975 series as seperate but there was not that much change in them.

Either way the bulk of all of those chipsets have support up to Penryn.

As for the other companies, I don't count them as they are not controled by Intel thus Intel cannot make the decision to have support for certain chips on those chipsets.

I think the earliest chipset I have seen supporting Penryn was a 945 and that would give Penryn 945, 955, 965, 975, 3 series and 4 series. Tha leaves only the 865G/GV, 915 and 925. The 875 was never presented for the LGA775 support (check Intels website) and only 2 of the 4 865 chipsets were made for LGA775 while the rest were made for PGA478.

So overall LGA775 has had a good life and most of the chipsets would last 1-2 years and some support 3 or 4 generations of CPUs and thats not bad. My P35 supports from the LGA775 Pentium 4s all the way up to the latest Penryn based quad/dual.
a b à CPUs
September 6, 2008 6:32:48 AM

You should be able to put an AM3 CPU into your AM2+ board. Of course this will only happen if your board can supply the required power, AND the manufacturer of the board actually puts out a BIOS update for it. If you got a decent MSI, Gigabyte, or ASUS board, that can handel at least 125W CPUs, I wouldn't worry about it. AM3 will probably be around for 2 years at least. I'm not really too worried about needing a new board for a while.
September 6, 2008 6:55:57 AM

Why not just get a cheap AM2+ board for now? The 780G boards are quite good and there are inexpensive triple and quads that will allow an upgrade to Deneb with a bios flash. All you need is one of your two systems upgraded for games. If your PSU can handle it, then a 4850's a great deal. That should make Oblivion at 1920 viable.

a b à CPUs
September 7, 2008 4:46:05 AM

yipsl said:
Why not just get a cheap AM2+ board for now? The 780G boards are quite good and there are inexpensive triple and quads that will allow an upgrade to Deneb with a bios flash. All you need is one of your two systems upgraded for games. If your PSU can handle it, then a 4850's a great deal. That should make Oblivion at 1920 viable.


Because even at 45nm the 9950 is going to be rated as a 125W processor. If your looking for an AM2+ Board that you can drop an AM3 CPU in then your best bet is for a board that can handle at least 125W, preferably 140W, and come from a manufacturer that will take the time to update the BIOS to support the new CPUs instead of trying to sell you a new MB. Heck Asus still updates BIOS for their Nvidia 570 boards to support the Phenom and they stopped making those boards a while ago.
September 9, 2008 7:43:08 AM

megamanx00 said:
Because even at 45nm the 9950 is going to be rated as a 125W processor. If your looking for an AM2+ Board that you can drop an AM3 CPU in then your best bet is for a board that can handle at least 125W, preferably 140W, and come from a manufacturer that will take the time to update the BIOS to support the new CPUs instead of trying to sell you a new MB. Heck Asus still updates BIOS for their Nvidia 570 boards to support the Phenom and they stopped making those boards a while ago.


I was thinking of the 95 watt Deneb's @ 2.4 and 2.6 that was pointed out to me on another thread.

The performance models will still be 125 watt at 2.8 and 3.0:

http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=323951

Still, though some 780G boards might not have a bios update. I trust both ASUS and Gigabyte to do that.

And I meant the 8450:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

At those prices, anyone upgrading later who needs a new board can still use it for an HTPC or upgrade a PC used for business and not games.
September 9, 2008 9:57:41 AM

Yipsl - i believe megamanx00 was referring to how a lot of 780g boards tend to catch fire if you try to make them run a 125watt or above processor due to not having a very well configured power circuitry ... sadly this includes the 125watt athlon x2's as well.
September 9, 2008 10:15:04 AM

coret said:
Yipsl - i believe megamanx00 was referring to how a lot of 780g boards tend to catch fire if you try to make them run a 125watt or above processor due to not having a very well configured power circuitry ... sadly this includes the 125watt athlon x2's as well.


I know, he said 125 watts for the 9950 but when I said it might be a cheap upgrade path to Deneb, I didn't mean all 45nm quads from AMD, just the lower clocked 95 watt. I do not recommend a 125 watt CPU on a 780G. Still, even the good manufacturer's that did not cut corners aimed the board at HTPC's, SOHO, and light gaming.

Why are people so adamant that Deneb won't be worth anything unless it's 3.0 @ 125 watts? Even there, it won't compete well against Nehalem (my best guess as an AMD fan) in games. The point is the OP wanted info on how to upgrade for a futureproof system that can handle a relatively "old" but graphically intensive game like Oblivion.

We won't know about AM3's futureproofing until it and the Denebs arrive. For now, a cheap solution isn't a bad idea if he doesn't mind upgrading in 6 months. With a 95 watt triple core priced close to a hundred and a quality 780G board he has two possibilities when Deneb arrives:

1. Bios flash and upgrade to a 95 watt processor

2. Use the board and triple core in a non-gaming PC; it's especially suited for an HTPC.

I don't mind if he doesn't take my advice. Waiting is the best thing to do for now, but some people need an upgrade as soon as possible and simply cannot wait. After building a 780G box for my kid (X2 4200+ and 3850) and one for my sister in law's kids (X2 4200+ and 3650), I'm really impressed with the two ASUS boards, but I haven't quite decided what to do with the Gigabyte board I got for myself.

If only AMD's CPU's were as good as their chipsets and ATI graphics cards!



July 27, 2010 7:16:00 AM

MU_Engineer said:
Socket G34 has 1974 lands, so it is a *completely* different socket than the ~940-pin units AMD has been using (socket 940/939/AM2/AM2+/AM3) and the 1207-land Socket F. Here's an article about G34 with a drawing of the socket:

http://www.dailytech.com/Hello+AMD+Socket+G34/article12...

Quote:
S775 has been fine really. There have only been 4 chipset families and all of them support the early Core 2 CPUs and 3 of them will support Penryn. Thats not half bad really.


There have been five Intel socket 775 chipset families:

(0. 865/875: these were really socket 478 chipsets, but some were LGA 775 and support Conroes. I'm not including it in my tally.)
1. 915/925: only support single-core P4s
2. 945/955: some 945s support Conroes and Penryns
3. 965/975: most boards with these support most socket 775 processors
4. 30-series: supports Core 2s
5. 40-series: supports Core 2s

That's not even counting VIA, SIS, ATi, or NVIDIA chipsets, several of which do not support Core 2s.

Quote:
I think it should be out with Deneb (not sure of the release date but have heard January 2009) from what I have heard since Deneb will support DDR3 and thats what AM3 is for is DDR3. An interesting thing I have heard about AM3 though is that AM3 CPUs will work on AM2+ (remember dependant on the mobo maker for full support) but AM2/AM2+ CPUs will not work on AM3. More than likely its due to the AM2 chips not having a DDR3 memory controller.


From what I've read, the AM3 CPUs have 938 pins- one of the two-pin pinless blocks in the AM2 socket has been expanded to four pins. This allows for you to put a socket AM3 CPU in an older AM2 board (two pin holes in the socket have no pins in them), but the AM2 CPUs will not fit in the AM3 boards because two pins will hit one of the blocked-off areas in the socket. It's the reverse of Socket 603 and 604 Xeons, where you could put an older Socket 603 chip in a newer 604 board but not a newer 604 processor in the older 603 boards due to an extra pin.



HT speed in itself only makes a difference in multi-socket socket F Opteron setups as it carries CPU-to-CPU data. On the desktop, all it does is talk to the chipset and that takes little bandwidth. However, the HT link speed on Phenoms is tied to the northbridge/IMC/L3 speed and that DOES make a difference in performance. So a 2.6 GHz HT link speed would yield better performance than a 2.0 GHz HT link speed only because your NB/IMC/L3 speed is 600 MHz faster, not because the actual HT link was saturated.




hay i have a socket 478 asus motherboard there not half bad really i seen one on water cooled and it was over clocked and it came out to 4.0ghz with 1000fsb for a singel core processor it can get donw if u ahve the right eqment but ya most mother board knwo days are confuzeing as hell thay dont make alot of ddr3 board of am3 for some reaosn i check amazon and theres only 2 mother boards hig price im not welling to pay new egg its ok for 242 buck u can get a am2+ quad core processor with 2gb ddr2 ram and a computer case and psu not to bad althorw i wish it was ddr3 and ebay half of them dont even have some type of worrenty
a b à CPUs
July 27, 2010 7:37:42 AM

@lawrence: Please check the thread's date and then post!! Last post was made in 2008!
a b à CPUs
July 27, 2010 5:28:14 PM

This topic has been closed by Mousemonkey
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