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Copper conducts better!

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July 29, 2009 7:46:00 PM

Hey i have noticed majority of the heatsinks for cooling are aluminum. Now, is there a big difference in temps with a copper and aluminum conductor? At the moment i have a copper thermaltake v1. ive seen the same in aluminum. Anyone have good info on this? Lemm know! Thank you! :hello: 

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a c 324 K Overclocking
July 29, 2009 8:00:32 PM

Aluminum = cheaper.

Copper = better.


Case closed.
July 29, 2009 8:13:54 PM

yup...copper transfers heat better than aluminum...simple as that...thats why copper heatsinks cost more...

usually you can find aluminum heatsinks with copper plating...which helps, but its not the same as being entirely made from copper...
Related resources
a b K Overclocking
July 29, 2009 10:34:45 PM

^ Actually you guys are wrong.

The truth is, It is mest to have a copper base and copper heatpipes because it conducts heat better than aluminum.

Copper heat conductivety=401

Aluminum heat conductivity=250

So the common illusion is that a 100% copper HSF whould cool better than an aluminum HSF.

This however is not the case, because we have to look at the specific heat capacity of both of these metals.

Aluminum=.902
copper.....=.375


The ideal heatsink has heat pipes that draw heat away quickly and fins that Dont change temperature quickly.

To cool "efficiently" it must have a high specific heat capacity because the temperature of the fins must not be changed quickly (wich is difficult to do because air doesnt cool very efficiently). Thus a heatsink with aluminum fins and a copper base would cool the best.
July 29, 2009 10:58:24 PM

overshocked said:
^ Actually you guys are wrong.

The truth is, It is mest to have a copper base and copper heatpipes because it conducts heat better than aluminum.

Copper heat conductivety=401

Aluminum heat conductivity=250

So the common illusion is that a 100% copper HSF whould cool better than an aluminum HSF.

This however is not the case, because we have to look at the specific heat capacity of both of these metals.

Aluminum=.902
copper.....=.375


The ideal heatsink has heat pipes that draw heat away quickly and fins that Dont change temperature quickly.

To cool "efficiently" it must have a high specific heat capacity because the temperature of the fins must not be changed quickly (wich is difficult to do because air doesnt cool very efficiently). Thus a heatsink with aluminum fins and a copper base would cool the best.


QFT

Pure copper heatsinks are expensive because it's more expensive, but that in no way makes them better.

On the other hand, pure copper looks quite nice :) 
July 30, 2009 12:22:57 AM

i was under the impression that although copper was able to draw heat better then aluminum it also kept the heat with it making it more difficult to cool the copper hence the combo's etc of copper and aluminum
July 30, 2009 1:16:13 AM

The two main reasons for the copper aluminum combination over pure copper is cost and weight. At a given weight they can put many more aluminum fins than copper. Back when the heatsinks were smaller there were many more pure copper and all the best were the all copper ones. When the large heatpipe coolers started to appear is when all copper units became too expensive and heavy for the small advantage they had over the hybrids.
a c 86 K Overclocking
July 30, 2009 3:33:26 AM

BroHamBone said:
Hey i have noticed majority of the heatsinks for cooling are aluminum. Now, is there a big difference in temps with a copper and aluminum conductor? At the moment i have a copper thermaltake v1. ive seen the same in aluminum. Anyone have good info on this? Lemm know! Thank you! :hello: 



So are you a Science guy? Geeze your title is just fail, I haven't seen one so stupid in a long long time. Your clueless but a pretty good marketer. Maybe you also can be on TV selling a new toilet cleaner with a stupidly loud voice.

I'm NOT making any effort to help this guy.
July 30, 2009 6:11:38 AM

overshocked said:
^ Actually you guys are wrong.

The truth is, It is mest to have a copper base and copper heatpipes because it conducts heat better than aluminum.
Copper heat conductivety=401
Aluminum heat conductivity=250
So the common illusion is that a 100% copper HSF whould cool better than an aluminum HSF.
This however is not the case, because we have to look at the specific heat capacity of both of these metals.
Aluminum=.902
copper.....=.375
The ideal heatsink has heat pipes that draw heat away quickly and fins that Dont change temperature quickly.
To cool "efficiently" it must have a high specific heat capacity because the temperature of the fins must not be changed quickly (wich is difficult to do because air doesnt cool very efficiently). Thus a heatsink with aluminum fins and a copper base would cool the best.


That's why water cooling with copper contact heat-pipes works so well. Water has one of the highest specific heat of any substance - 4185 joules per gram, so it is great at absorbing a ton of heat.
a b K Overclocking
July 30, 2009 10:41:42 AM

^ You kinda have it right "BSOD".

The specific heat capacity is how much energy it takes to change the temperature of a substance.

Water is a good cooler because it has a thermal conductivety about 20x that of air.

Sounds good huh?
Wrong.

water has a thermal conductivety of .58

copper has a thermal conductivety of 401


July 30, 2009 12:02:47 PM

Guys, a "water cooled" system is still being cooled by air.

The water just acts as a replacement for the heat pipes.


The advantage is that you are not limited to the form factor of your case, but instead you can use a huge, very effective radiator outside your compy case.

True, the thermal conductivity of water is quite low compared to copper and alu, however, since the water is constantly pumped around between the radiator and the cpu/gpu/whatever, that is not an issue.

July 30, 2009 2:26:11 PM

Conumdrum said:
So are you a Science guy? Geeze your title is just fail, I haven't seen one so stupid in a long long time. Your clueless but a pretty good marketer. Maybe you also can be on TV selling a new toilet cleaner with a stupidly loud voice.

I'm NOT making any effort to help this guy.




1 thing for this dood...D1KK! Get a life dood and quit being a cyber bully! HAH! thats funny!

Anyway... the reason i posted this thread is to find out about different cooling systems. I am very skeptical on water cooling do to, water being that close to running electronics. I would have to see one to believe it :??:  Like i stated, i have a copper HSF right now. But for my new build i was curious about copper pipes/aluminum fins or all copper or all aluminum or H20. With the water its just over my head expensive compared to something that can be cooled by fan and metals. But thanks for the help thus far! It has informed me on what i never knew... oh yea again to Con..... D1KK!
July 30, 2009 5:20:12 PM

BroHamBone said:
1 thing for this dood...D1KK! Get a life dood and quit being a cyber bully! HAH! thats funny!

Anyway... the reason i posted this thread is to find out about different cooling systems. I am very skeptical on water cooling do to, water being that close to running electronics. I would have to see one to believe it :??:  Like i stated, i have a copper HSF right now. But for my new build i was curious about copper pipes/aluminum fins or all copper or all aluminum or H20. With the water its just over my head expensive compared to something that can be cooled by fan and metals. But thanks for the help thus far! It has informed me on what i never knew... oh yea again to Con..... D1KK!



Well technically, pure water does not conduct electricity, as in de-ionized water. The water that we see each day is filled with ions that give it its conductive properties.

Also there are plenty of non conductive liquids that are used for liquid cooling that will not fry your components if they leak.
July 30, 2009 5:25:17 PM

jonsy2k said:
Well technically, pure water does not conduct electricity, as in de-ionized water. The water that we see each day is filled with ions that give it its conductive properties.

Also there are plenty of non conductive liquids that are used for liquid cooling that will not fry your components if they leak.



i will do more research on it before making the decision... there was a thread where the guy unscrewed the pipe connected to the cpu cooler..... and he said it spilled... of course that was his fault for missing some important step in there.. Scary!!! :cry:  Lol, but i will keep it in mind for the future. Thanks for the moral boost on my quest!
July 30, 2009 7:27:44 PM

overshocked said:
^ Actually you guys are wrong.

The truth is, It is mest to have a copper base and copper heatpipes because it conducts heat better than aluminum.

Copper heat conductivety=401

Aluminum heat conductivity=250

So the common illusion is that a 100% copper HSF whould cool better than an aluminum HSF.

This however is not the case, because we have to look at the specific heat capacity of both of these metals.

Aluminum=.902
copper.....=.375


The ideal heatsink has heat pipes that draw heat away quickly and fins that Dont change temperature quickly.

To cool "efficiently" it must have a high specific heat capacity because the temperature of the fins must not be changed quickly (wich is difficult to do because air doesnt cool very efficiently). Thus a heatsink with aluminum fins and a copper base would cool the best.


good points, but the thermal resistance from fin to air is the largest resistance in the thermal equation, the schematic you would use to model the CPU-interface-heatsinkbase-interface-heatpipe-interface-fin-air transition.

and the transition from fin to air is affected hardly at all by fin material.

a b K Overclocking
July 30, 2009 7:35:23 PM

Raviolissimo said:
good points, but the thermal resistance from fin to air is the largest resistance in the thermal equation, the schematic you would use to model the CPU-interface-heatsinkbase-interface-heatpipe-interface-fin-air transition.

and the transition from fin to air is affected hardly at all by fin material.



I didnt even want to touch on thermal resistance. If i had to start there LOL. [:lectrocrew:6]
July 30, 2009 8:25:30 PM

overshocked said:
^ You kinda have it right "BSOD".

The specific heat capacity is how much energy it takes to change the temperature of a substance.

Water is a good cooler because it has a thermal conductivety about 20x that of air.

Sounds good huh?
Wrong.

water has a thermal conductivety of .58

copper has a thermal conductivety of 401


ya, that's what I meant. The water takes the place of aluminum - lower thermal conductivity but higher specific heat. The water acts as the heatsink to hold the heat for dissipation while the copper acts as the heat conductor.
a b K Overclocking
July 30, 2009 8:32:47 PM

^WORD!
a b K Overclocking
July 30, 2009 8:55:31 PM

The short answer is that copper is generally better. The long answer is to go study thermal dynamics :D 
a b K Overclocking
July 30, 2009 9:15:02 PM

^ thermal dynamics and physics (=
a b K Overclocking
July 31, 2009 2:05:56 AM

Hmm.... lol.... should I come up with a sim (CFDesign, FloWorks, Thatmal Desktop) for this? :lol: 
July 31, 2009 3:53:26 AM

yes you should :) 
a b K Overclocking
July 31, 2009 6:11:17 AM

LOL
a b K Overclocking
July 31, 2009 8:40:51 AM


Heat conduction is the flow of internal energy from a region of higher temperature to one of lower temperature by the interaction of the adjacent particles (atoms, molecules, ions, electrons, etc.) in the intervening space.

Factors affecting the rate of heat transfer by conduction.

temperature difference
length
cross-sectional area
material

P = ΔQ = kAΔT
Δt ℓ

Aluminum = good
Copper = better
Silver = best





July 31, 2009 8:59:00 AM

jonsy2k write>Well technically, pure water does not conduct electricity, as in de-ionized water. The water that we see each day is filled with ions that give it its conductive properties.

Also there are plenty of non conductive liquids that are used for liquid cooling that will not fry your components if they leak.

Well, good luck with that as tests have proven that NONE of the selling SO CALLED non conductve cooling liquids ARE actually non conductive.
The only ones that are really non conductive are mineral oil and fluorient, both not suited for watercooling.

I suggest you actually check as much as posible on water cooling so u get a general idea, then post a new thread mayb :D .

And BTW, as far as i know best heat conductor is a diamond, so tell me when someone is crazy enought to actually me those heatsinks :D .
July 31, 2009 12:13:54 PM

Conumdrum said:
So are you a Science guy? Geeze your title is just fail, I haven't seen one so stupid in a long long time. Your clueless but a pretty good marketer. Maybe you also can be on TV selling a new toilet cleaner with a stupidly loud voice.

I'm NOT making any effort to help this guy.


Stop being a troll and a bully. We don't like that very much around here... :pfff: 
July 31, 2009 12:15:31 PM

jonsy2k said:
Well technically, pure water does not conduct electricity, as in de-ionized water. The water that we see each day is filled with ions that give it its conductive properties.

Also there are plenty of non conductive liquids that are used for liquid cooling that will not fry your components if they leak.


Pure water DOES conduct electricity; and that is because of the auto-dissociation of water molecules...
July 31, 2009 2:03:50 PM

Raviolissimo said:
good points, but the thermal resistance from fin to air is the largest resistance in the thermal equation, the schematic you would use to model the CPU-interface-heatsinkbase-interface-heatpipe-interface-fin-air transition.

and the transition from fin to air is affected hardly at all by fin material.



So in "my terms" :p  .. you are are saying a heatsink with copper base/copper pipes/aluminum fins are possibly equal, maybe greater(considering price and output of product) than an all copper heatsink?
August 1, 2009 7:15:58 AM

aziraphale said:
Pure water DOES conduct electricity; and that is because of the auto-dissociation of water molecules...




Taken from Wikipedia:

"Purified water can also be used in PC watercooling systems. The lack of impurity in the water means that the system stays clean and prevents a build up of bacteria and algae. Also, the low conductance leads to less risk of electrical damage in the event of a leak or spillage. This enables the machine to work at optimal efficiency even after extensive periods of time without water exchange."


However, on the same page it also states:

"The very lack of ions make deionized water unusually corrosive and one of the most aggressive solvents known. It is not generally considered acceptable to spray water on electronic circuits that are in use or with power applied. It is wise to avoid mixing water and electricity."



Good read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deionised_water
a b K Overclocking
August 1, 2009 7:17:24 AM

^ Man this page is full of trolls now!
August 2, 2009 7:34:33 AM

santeana said:
I'm not sure if you are just looking for info on the whole theory of copper vs. aluminum, or if you are seeking advice on a good cooler. There is already a fountain of info on the former in this thread so I'll just tell you that if you are looking for a good cooler, I use the Thermalright Ultra120 Plus. It cools my system extremely well when combined with some AS5 thermal grease. My cpu temp never has gone above 46C since adding the cooler. It also has a good reputation of being one of if not the best air cooler on the market and will cool better than some water cooling systems. There are also a couple disadvantages to this cooler, however: 1) measure your case for clearance as this cooler is very tall. and 2) it doesn't come with a fan out of the box, so you will want to grab a decent fan to go with it.
I'm sure someone here will disagree with me and say theirs is better, or whatever. Just telling you that I bought it after reading dozens of reviews and it works very well for me.




thanks very much for the response. I am looking for information on different types of cooling. The thread is a bind between air and water. Which should i choose from? considering the research i/ and everyone else has *smart ass mofo's* I dont think h2o is really to much of an increase in cooling. If you consider the price a copper/aluminum fan will do the exact same minus some degrees which isnt bad at all. I most likely will not go the water route, although the article on the corsair h50 has me interested.......ugh! decesions!
August 2, 2009 8:52:55 AM

BroHamBone said:
thanks very much for the response. I am looking for information on different types of cooling. The thread is a bind between air and water. Which should i choose from? considering the research i/ and everyone else has *smart ass mofo's* I dont think h2o is really to much of an increase in cooling. If you consider the price a copper/aluminum fan will do the exact same minus some degrees which isnt bad at all. I most likely will not go the water route, although the article on the corsair h50 has me interested.......ugh! decesions!


At the end of the day, it is not really about the effectiveness of a given cooling medium. It is about the effectiveness of how fast that medium can conduct the heat away from the source, and xfer it to the sink. Usually in the case of PC's the sink is the air interface, ignoring ln2 or he or other exotic mediums...

So for any heatsink, it is about how fast the heat can be moved away from the source (cpu, gpu) to the sink - the air outside of your system. Then there are some other factors that come into play, such as how much noise are you willing to put up with vs. how much cooling do you really need to keep your system happy? A water cooled system with a poor radiator and a smallish fan all mounted inside of your case will likely perform very poorly compared to a decent air cooled HSF with good high CFM low noise fan(s).

No matter what system you eventually use, if it cannot conduct the heat away from your system effeciently, it will end up not being adequate.

a b K Overclocking
August 2, 2009 11:34:00 AM

as i have a physics degree ill chime in :D , the perfect air cooler would have silver heat pipes and base with liquid metal inside the pipes for optimal heat transfer and then silver fins to disipate the heat to the air.

the liquid metal is prefered as it would have a very high thermal conductivity to take heat away but also a very low specfic heat such that the liquid metal would rise in temp quicker, this is needed so that there is a larger delta T from the air to the metal fins.

which including the airflow and air resistance no of fins and the coeff of emissivity are the only factors which will affect the heat transfer from fins to air.
a b K Overclocking
August 2, 2009 2:24:36 PM

richardscott said:
as i have a physics degree ill chime in :D , the perfect air cooler would have silver heat pipes and base with liquid metal inside the pipes for optimal heat transfer and then silver fins to disipate the heat to the air.

the liquid metal is prefered as it would have a very high thermal conductivity to take heat away but also a very low specfic heat such that the liquid metal would rise in temp quicker, this is needed so that there is a larger delta T from the air to the metal fins.

which including the airflow and air resistance no of fins and the coeff of emissivity are the only factors which will affect the heat transfer from fins to air.


I agree silver is the best metal to use as the base and heatpipes for CPU cooler. Too bad it's so expensive but if someone wanted to make a custom bling bling CPU cooler for computer shows, maybe one dau we'll see an all silver, or better, all gold (no corrosion) cooler.
a b K Overclocking
August 2, 2009 2:37:05 PM

gold wouldn't work :p  it reflects heat well but not transferring it and as far as no corrosion goes that's only for pure gold. erm but gold plated silver :D  with diamond thermal paste
!