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Need advice on a cooler (I'm thinking H20)

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August 8, 2009 5:45:40 AM

Hello. As an introduction, I admit I am a total newb. This is my first build ever. It's actually my first desktop ever. After 4 laptops... I need something with some power. I have purchased all the components listed below for the build. The only thing that's missing is the cooler. Since I have little experience in this field, I figured I'd as some guys in-the-know about what works for a setup like mine and what doesn't.

I want to build a smaller mid-tower primarily for general home/office use but I would like to do some casual gaming and the occasional LAN party. I do not want a big monstrous thing that screams "gaming pc" - something of a sleeper if you'd want to call it that. The build is very value/budget based. The big hurdle is my case choice, the GMC R-2 Toast. I like that it's minimalistic... one ODD, 2 HDDs, no other drives. This case is notorious for being a little on the small side and having less than optimal flow (understatement from what I've read). This is why I'm leaning towards something H20 cooled w/out a reservoir but I am open to suggestions.

Chiefly, I was looking into the Corsair CWCH50 or something based off a Swiftech Apogee Drive. Being a dual 80mm fan midtower case, I'm a little handcuffed here. I was thinking two higher flow 80mm fans in the normal exhaust spots blowing into an externally mounted Black Ice II dual 80mm radiator (on the outside of the rear panel wall). My only question here is how do I get the processor fan control to control BOTH radiator fans... or is one of the fans left to run continuous. Alternatively, the Corsair H50 seems ideally small and simple other than it's a 120mm radiator and my case is dual 80mm... maybe just use a 120mm to 80mm adapter if there's room in the case (doubtful).

Let me know what you guys think might be a solution:
(Thanks for your time)

AMD Phenom II X3 720BE
ASUS M4A785TD-V EVO 785G
4GB (2X2GB) Crucial Blitz2 DDR3 1333 RAM
ASUS Dark Knight 1GB HD 4870 VGA
2X Seagate Barracuda 500GB HDD (Not sure if I want to RAID yet but the MB supports it.)
APEVIA 650W PSU
Samsung DVD/CD Burner (all in one kind of drive)
GMC R-2 Toast (White)
HANNSG 1080P|LCD 21.5" 5MS HH-221HPB - Reta
Cooler ?
a b K Overclocking
August 8, 2009 5:51:45 AM

THe h50 seems to be the perfect solution for you because you have almost no case airflow.
a c 86 K Overclocking
August 8, 2009 6:01:23 AM

Please do yourself a favor. A high powered rig needs a good airflow case. 80 mm fans are so 2000. Move up to what all the other peeps are using. At least TWO 120mm fans intake, a 120mm on the back with a 120mm on the top or more.

Lots of cases out there. The new stuff makes soo much heat you gotta have the case airflow.

And watercooling, LOL, even the cheapo H50 no better than a top notch air cooler is a 120mm radiator with fan, it won't even fit on a 80mm fan hole.

Real watercooling starts witha 2x120mm radiator size at a minimum. So you need at a MIN a spot with TWO 120 fans on the front of the case. Your watercooling solution, and I know what you need is a 120x3 rad, pump, res, fans.

No case air flow, your gonna be hurting.

.......................................
CPU HS $65
GPU HS and air HS for vram and mosfets $95, full cover block, $100-$200
Radiator $60 min, up to $130
Pump $50 +
Resiviour $25
Hose, some barbs and clamps etc (min $25, more like $35)
Fans $15-30

I went top notch and spent close to $600 to cool my CPU and GPU.
First you gotta learn about WC. It's not like walking into Best Buy.
Spend a while (weeks is best for your sanity) at these links.
Look at the hundreds of loops close to your case and components in the stickies, read a couple 50 or so threads over the next week or so, you'll be on the ball to make the right choices and by then know how to put it together.
Not 'Roket Sience', but basic knowledge is required.
And you should spend a few hours on the listed sites reading threads. It's how we learn. Once the goodies show up on your doorstep your on your own.
For your benefit please spend a few days reading a LOT. At the busiest places for WC masters. Guys who have done it for YEARS at OC Forums and xtreme forums. It took me a while (I was OCing on air, aftermarket stuff, bios settings, best chipsets etc etc) to learn the language and the tricks to a easy install.

Don't expect miracles or SUPER DOOPER over clocks. What you will get is a quiet system that can handle OC to the max of your hardware IF you buy quality and buy smart. And minor maintenance too, a bonus for the water cooler.

Also while there please read on case mods etc. The radiators are not for small cases, pumps and hose routing, wire management and other things are important. Google your planned case and the word water-cooled in one line. You might get lucky. Look here too…. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22...
............................
Edit: The next paragraph was from 2008. With the advent of the HOT i7 and bigger GPU's, it has changed. A 220 size MIN rad for an i7, you want big overclocks, better go 320 sized rad.
................................

IF you just cool your CPU and your NB if you want, you can get by with a 120.2 sized radiator (RAD). And MAYBE fit in inside depending on your mod skillz. You want to cool your GPU too, you'll need a 120.3 sized rad, and it probably won't fit inside. The rear external rad really works great. No matter what your adding 10lbs to your PC.

Once you got an idea of what is good/bad then start getting your system for WC put together and we'll be glad to help.
…………………………………………………………
Cleaning a loop, not a new loop: I do this once a year, I drain and refill at 6 months, the next time I do this……
Wash hands very well, getting rid of hand oils.
For pumps and blocks, fittings, clamps, acrylic res/block parts.... not hose, tear it to smallest pieces, put in a bowl, heat water up not to boiling add 10% vinegar, when hot, pour over parts. Rinse in 10 min or so. Put aside.
The bocks will probably have some black oxidation. Take the copper parts out of the pile of parts you took out of the water. Dry well and pour ketchup on them, and set aside. Only the copper parts need this.
Rad cleaning: fill with very almost boiling hot water. Let sit 10 minutes, drain half out and shake for 5 min. Repeat till liquid is clean.
All the pump, block, fittings, and clamps, inspect, get in the tiniest corners with a tooth brush. Kind of meditative, time consuming, you learn a lot about o-ring size, how it all feels. Run a rag using a coat hanger and dish soap through the tubing, rinse well.
Rinse all the parts and hose with distilled, dry then really dry with an air compressor (nice extra step to get rid of water spots). Don’t need to dry the inside of the hose.
Now on to the copper parts, they should have been soaking an hour or two. A toothbrush and ketchup should clean much of the oxidation. It probably won’t be like new, but pretty darn good. Rinse, dry, and blow the parts.
That’s it.
………………………………………………………
Benching software and such is very varied. I use these for each purpose:
These are pretty standard and used by many.
Monitoring the PC temps overall: HWmonitor aka hardware monitor
CPUZ for CPU info
GPUZ for GPU info
CPU only: RealTemp
GPU only: ATI Tool, I have a Nivida GTX280, so it works on Nvidia

Loading/benching tools:
CPU loaders: Prime95 and OCCT
GPU Loaders: ATI Tool and the best one is Furmark, nothing pushes the GPU harder right now.
Benching for overall graphics/gaming performance is 3DMark06
……………………………………………………………
Guides
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=... Pretty up to date info and buying guide
 verclocking-and-cooling&Itemid=86" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://gilgameshreviews.com/index.php?option=com_conten... Another good guide
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=... What to do once all the stuff is in the door
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22... Many build logs on MANY cases, great learning tool.

My latest rig:
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=604016

Forums
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/index.php? Not a noob site, but great stickies
http://www.ocforums.com/ My fav, good peeps, know their stuff, less hardcore
http://www.over-clock.com/ivb/inde [...] opic=20277 A GREAT Europe site
http://www.overclock.net/water-cooling/ Decent site

Tests on equipment, not reviews, truly scientific tests
http://translate.google.com/transl [...] n&ie=UTF-8 Info on rad testing
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22... More rad testing
http://skinneelabs.com/ Host for Martins lab and some newer tests
http://www.skinneelabs.com/MartinsLiquidLab/ Test results, very technical


Stores
http://www.dangerden.com
http://www.petrastechshop.com/
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/
http://www.jab-tech.com/
http://www.performance-pcs.com
http://www.frozencpu.com/
……………………………………………………………………………….
Related resources
August 8, 2009 6:06:07 AM

Quote:
THe h50 seems to be the perfect solution for you because you have almost no case airflow.

My thoughts exactly.

If I cant fit a 80mm > 120mm adapter inside the case, I could probably mount the adapter on the outside of the case and put the Corsair radiator/fan out there. With a high flow 80mm fan on the inside, it would make a nice little push/pull setup. The 80mm case fans would always blow through and the CPU control would kick on the external 120mm when it needs to.

Does anyne know if the corsair hoses will reach far enough to put the radiator on the outside of the back panel?
If not could I cut and jerry rig them to be longer?
If so, I think I found a <$100 solution to cool temps. :sol: 

Also, more expensively (but compatible with dual 80mm cases) would be an Apogee Drive pump/block and 80mm radiators. But This priced out to ~$200. I only spent $800 on the Whole setup... so $200 for cooling seems wrong.
August 8, 2009 6:17:55 AM

Conumdrum, I don't really plan on OCing and if there is any OC it will be VERY modest. Maybe 3-3.2g GHz tops up from the factory 2.8 GHz.
I probably wont ever have t bother with OC on the VGA because my monitor is just a 1200x1080.
Should be a walk in the park for the 1G 4870.

As for the case choice, my wife would like to keep it (in her words) "normal looking" and not "some big crazy thing".

I'll probably end up running it on the stock AMD cooler until I figure out where I stand with this setup and what course of action I can take to cool this rig.
Right now I'm just planning ahead and recognizing that this case will not make my life any easier.
August 8, 2009 4:47:58 PM

Well, so far on the whole thing (monitor included) I've spent about $800.
I really don't to go over $100 on the cooler and more case fans if possible.
a b K Overclocking
August 8, 2009 9:24:07 PM

^ Yeah... you dont really have much room for mounting fans in that case so i think the H50 is a great solution.
a c 86 K Overclocking
August 8, 2009 9:51:52 PM

You could cut a nice 120mm fan hole onthe top and mount the rad/fan on the outside blowing in? Get some HS fans for the 80MM exhaust? More case air flow never hurts.
August 8, 2009 9:53:03 PM

it seems like you are willing to cripple your build just for the sake of a case, which doesn't make much sense. Cases like that are not meant for performance systems, so all you will never get the performance you've paid for with the other top end components. Your best bet to get the performance you are paying for is to get a case more suited to the other parts you've chosen.
August 9, 2009 6:27:27 AM

the OP pretty much wasted his money on the 4870..he runs 1200x1080 which is ridiculous for the 4870
a c 86 K Overclocking
August 9, 2009 3:52:28 PM

overshocks said:
the OP pretty much wasted his money on the 4870..he runs 1200x1080 which is ridiculous for the 4870



We aren't disussing what he bought, the GPU was his cost, so it's what he bought, it has no bearing on this discussion.


I run an i7 and two GTX280's, I am playing Neverwinternights 2 on a 24" monitor. It's the only game I have played for the last 3 months. I surely don't need my GPU power, you like to comment on my hardware choice too?

You didn't help the OP at all with his question.
August 9, 2009 6:47:22 PM

4870 at 1200x1080
wasted the money of a video card
August 9, 2009 7:29:03 PM

Conumdrum said:
We aren't disussing what he bought, the GPU was his cost, so it's what he bought, it has no bearing on this discussion.


I run an i7 and two GTX280's, I am playing Neverwinternights 2 on a 24" monitor. It's the only game I have played for the last 3 months. I surely don't need my GPU power, you like to comment on my hardware choice too?

You didn't help the OP at all with his question.


Neither did you in this post, don't b1tch at me. You making yourself look more pathetic than you are already. If you did not comment on my post then I wouldn't be dissing you back. Therefore, you wasted both of our time when you could of think before you talk. Also, I don't care about what you played for the last 3 months, it's your decision now stop crying about my comment like a little baby.

Also to OP , h50 is a good choice like overshocked said.
Also you should increase air flow of your case
August 9, 2009 7:33:15 PM

TerminatorXT said:
4870 at 1200x1080
wasted the money of a video card


I said that already no need to repeat
a b K Overclocking
August 9, 2009 9:45:49 PM

overshocks said:
Neither did you in this post, don't b1tch at me. You making yourself look more pathetic than you are already. If you did not comment on my post then I wouldn't be dissing you back. Therefore, you wasted both of our time when you could of think before you talk. Also, I don't care about what you played for the last 3 months, it's your decision now stop crying about my comment like a little baby.

Also to OP , h50 is a good choice like overshocked said.
Also you should increase air flow of your case



alright dude dont go getting yourself banned like last time. [:thegreatgrapeape:4] [:thegreatgrapeape:4]
a b K Overclocking
August 9, 2009 11:45:47 PM

Quote:
APEVIA 650W PSU

Just some friendly advice: Start by replacing that cr@p PSU. It's NOT good. For an example of Apevia's quality:
Quote:
It should be noted that I stopped testing on the first Apevia unit we had after Test #3 because the unit began to melt. I could not completely identify where the unit was melting from nor photograph it very well because the unit had to remain in tact in order to get an RMA as these units were purchased at retail. However, the second unit we received also began to melt during Test #3 but not nearly as badly and from what appeared to be a different location. This time the melting was obviously from some of the caulk used to secure the components on the PCB. It would seem that the temperature rating by Apevia may have been for a good reason, however it should be noted that even at these temperatures the manufacturer should not be using caulk or plastics that should melt. This unit is supposedly UL certified and if so I would be interested to find out how that happened.

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article/2007/05/23/450w50...

More:
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

Quote:
And the strange thing was, every time the unit did this, I was able to shut down and restart the unit in test four and it would work perfectly until I hit test five again. I tried four times to get the unit to complete test five, and it failed every single time. At no time did the protection circuitry step in and shut the unit down, which is inexcusable for me. Especially since exhaust temps went past 72 degrees the moment test five started. The unit brags about having overtemp protection, but I'll be darned if I ever saw it work. At any rate, overtemp protection is the least of my worries now, what with test CL1 giving me new records of suck on the 3.3V and 5V readings. Forget about overtemp, where's the overcurrent protection in all this?

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

I wouldn't trust this PSU to power any thing.

Now as for your question about the H50, you could just go with a good HSF like the Core Contact or do this:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/253560-29-cheapest

considering that the H50 is ~$100, you could spend $100 more and have a real WC loop.
a b K Overclocking
August 10, 2009 12:12:23 AM

Shadow703793 said:
Quote:
APEVIA 650W PSU

Just some friendly advice: Start by replacing that cr@p PSU. It's NOT good. For an example of Apevia's quality:
Quote:
It should be noted that I stopped testing on the first Apevia unit we had after Test #3 because the unit began to melt. I could not completely identify where the unit was melting from nor photograph it very well because the unit had to remain in tact in order to get an RMA as these units were purchased at retail. However, the second unit we received also began to melt during Test #3 but not nearly as badly and from what appeared to be a different location. This time the melting was obviously from some of the caulk used to secure the components on the PCB. It would seem that the temperature rating by Apevia may have been for a good reason, however it should be noted that even at these temperatures the manufacturer should not be using caulk or plastics that should melt. This unit is supposedly UL certified and if so I would be interested to find out how that happened.

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article/2007/05/23/450w50...

More:
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

Quote:
And the strange thing was, every time the unit did this, I was able to shut down and restart the unit in test four and it would work perfectly until I hit test five again. I tried four times to get the unit to complete test five, and it failed every single time. At no time did the protection circuitry step in and shut the unit down, which is inexcusable for me. Especially since exhaust temps went past 72 degrees the moment test five started. The unit brags about having overtemp protection, but I'll be darned if I ever saw it work. At any rate, overtemp protection is the least of my worries now, what with test CL1 giving me new records of suck on the 3.3V and 5V readings. Forget about overtemp, where's the overcurrent protection in all this?

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

I wouldn't trust this PSU to power any thing.


Nice digging.


Now as for your question about the H50, you could just go with a good HSF like the Core Contact or do this:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/253560-29-cheapest

considering that the H50 is ~$100, you could spend $100 more and have a real WC loop.


But this guy doesnt seem the type to make your sub $200 water rig. I think this is a prime example of what the H50 was made for. ;) 
a b K Overclocking
August 10, 2009 12:40:05 AM

^True. Next time can you italicize or bold your reply. It took me a while to find your reply.
a b K Overclocking
August 10, 2009 1:20:37 AM

My bad LOL i didnt mean to put it in your quote, better?
a b K Overclocking
August 10, 2009 2:15:00 AM

^ Yes lol
August 10, 2009 7:09:10 AM

Thanks for all the input and responses guys.

After taking your advice, I canceled my first newegg order (it was delayed due too billing) and replaced the order below roughly the same net price with a better setup.
Even thoough I ditched the neat GMC toast case I will still stick with the H50 cooler because (for $70) it really seems like a good cooler that is not heavy loud or bulky.
I will actually be installing it into a push-pull setup at the rear exhaust fan so it will do some very respectible cooling. The VGA can fend for itself at cooling ;)  .
As for the HD 4870 working a 22" 1080P screen... Yes it's overkill for now but I plan on going dual monitor in the near future. Engineer, lots f 3D modeling, dual monitor... you know.

+ Antec Three Hundred Illusion Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
- Still looks sweet and simple, 4 120mm fans and a 140mm top fan, bottom PSU, looks good with my board.
+ Corsair H50 Water Cooler in Push-Pull setup.
+ OCZ ModXStream Pro OCZ600MXSP 600W CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS PSU.
- Lots of good reviews and same price as the 650w Apevia
+ ASUS M4A785TD-V EVO AM3 AMD 785G ATX AMD Motherboard
+ ASUS Dark Knight Radeon HD 4870 1GB 256-bit GDDR5
+ AMD Phenom II X3 720 2.8GHz AM3 95W Triple-Core Black Processor
+ Crucial Ballistix 4GB (2 x 2GB ) DDR3 1333
+ 2X Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
- Still Don't know if I want to run RAID or not
+ OCZ USB Wired Slim Alchemy Series Elixir II Keyboard
+ Hanns·G HH-221HPB Black 21.5" 5ms HDMI Widescreen LCD Monitor
- Yeah, it was cheap... but I need a monitor and $139 for a 22"1080P ain't bad.
+ SAMSUNG DVD Burner Black SATA Model SH-S223L LightScribe
+ Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound. Used on every Laptop and Xbox I ever owned.
+ 2X Rosewill 120mm 4 Blue LED 74cfm Case Fan
August 10, 2009 9:10:01 AM

I forgot to give my input on the H50
lets say this
I have a Q6600 that ran at stock speeds of
IDLE temp of whatever my ambient temperature was
LOAD temp of 42C

now my processor runs at 28C IDLE and 45C LOAD at 3.1ghz

the h50 is an extremely good way to liquid cool your cpu without building your own loop that would cost $100 more
a b K Overclocking
August 10, 2009 5:51:13 PM

Yeah the h50 is pretty damn good.
a c 86 K Overclocking
August 11, 2009 3:26:12 AM

Make that almost $150 more to do it right.
August 11, 2009 4:53:07 AM

yup...
!