Build Now or Wait for Nehalem?

[reidthaler]

I'm running a P4 3.0 2 GB RAM, XP

I'm a photographer and not a gamer, so that is my focus.

I was thinking of waiting until the new Nehalem CPUs come out, but am realizing that it may not be worth the pain of being an early adopter--too much cost for perhaps a 15% performance increase--but am open to arguments to wait. Money is tight as we have 2 kids in daycare, and a fat California mortgage.

And if Nehalem will only run DDR3 memory, that's another hit in the wallet.

So, I'm thinking of a Quad core, likely the Q6600 on and Asus mobo as that seems to be well regarded and a good performance/cost value.

I've built my previous system, so I'm comfortable going under the hood. If any one wants to take me under their wing and be a hardware mentor and help me spec things out that would be great. I thought of buying off the shelf, but have hardware I could recycle--PS, optical drives and hard drives. I bought an Antec P182 case in anticipation. I like quiet systems.

I've been looking at the Asus P5Q mobo for $120. I'm not interested in RAID--seems liek more of a hassle for little gain.

What about overclocking? Does it make much of a performance difference, or is it more of an exercise in seeing how far you can push a system? Can you OC without water cooling and still have a quiet system? Any quick ways to OC? I know Asus mobos can OC in the BIOS by percentage boost, or do you just have to go trial and error and back off when it starts to bleed?

So thoughts? Mentors?

Thanks!

Reid

 

[yomamafor1]

I would recommend Q6600 over anything at this point. Since you're not as free on money as other early adopters, going Nehalem will not be wise choice.

As for overclocking, you should obtain a 3.2Ghz~3.4Ghz with a good cooler very easily. You can either do so by ASUS's utility (which nets you less overclock), or you can do it by yourself. There are a lot of overclocking guide available online, and a simple search should turn up a lot of results.

I would go for:

Q6600 185USD + Tax
Thermalright Ultra120 60USD + Tax
P5Q Pro 120 + Tax - Rebate
Crucial Ballistix 4GB (2GB x 2) 62 + Tax - Rebate
ATI HD3250 33 + Tax

You can also go for AMD's quad core offering, which is slightly cheaper.

You can pretty much recycle the PSU from your last build, but it would be better if it has a 300~350W rating. The other components (optical drive, hard drives) can also be recycled and reused as well.

 

[Scotteq]

Agreed on sticking with current generation stuff, rather than deal with the potential financial/technological pain of early adopting a new proccy/chipset.

I love my Q6600 and have no plans on retiring it any time in the near future. But if I were to buy now I'd go for a Yorkie (Q9300/9400 - figure $50~100 more). Why? Before overclocking and depending on the measurement they're roughly 10~20% more efficient clock for clock, consume less power and therefore make a little bit less heat/noise. The stock FSB is higher (1333 versus 1066) as well, so you have a bit more bandwidth for running large picture files through that little bit more efficiently.

Just my $0.02...

 

[TechnologyCoordinator]

The epic "build or wait". Always a tough choice!

I always use my rigs until they are unbearably slow then upgrade to whatever is out at the time unless there is some major, solid launch date coming in the near future.

 

[bobwya]

If you are on a tight budget and you aren't going need 4 cores, hows abouty the E5200??
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116072
http://uneit.com/2008/07/06/intel-e5200-performance-in-overclocking/
Ironically its only 5 bucks more then a 3.0Ghz P4!!

I have recommended one of these to my Flatmate who does 2D animation for Clubs and the like. Currently he is on a Athlon XP system (ouch!!) so really needs an upgrade urgently as well. He is also on a budget and this is the current winner at the low end.

Don't forget that the C2D architecture just flys rings around the older Netburst architecture (micro/macro- instruction globbing, out-of-order memory accesses, etc., etc.) Anything off the newer range will seem like your system is on NxO!! I built a E2180-based system with a neighbour (we ended up supergluing a backing plate on his heatsink...hmmm) and I started thinking my Opterons were feeling their age!! The CPU utilisation on his system just stayed so low during normal usage (it was like a flatline near zero in ProcessExplorer)!!

The E5200 will also be friendly on your Electricity bills with a 65W TDP at stock...

Personally I prefer multicore but only because I do a lot of x264 video encoding...

Just a thought...

Bob

 

[snarfies1]

If you upgrade to a 775 quad today, you will probably be performing so well for so long that by the time you "need" to upgrade again the Nelahem prices will have dropped dramatically.

 

[icyicy]

On the other hand you might want to wait for Nehalem anyway since when they are released current cpu prices are most likely going to drop. Unless you need it urgently that is.

 

[zenmaster]

If you are fretting about price, don't get Nehalem.
With the Age of your current system, the new Q6600 system will be worlds better.

At this point, I only think those who are not price sensitive should be waiting/holding out for Nehalem.

 

[geofelt]

If you are thinking about quad core, and your budget for cpu is near $300, then you should wait until November and Nehalem.

That said, though, is the work that you do very cpu intensive, and is the software that you use optimized for multiple cores? Do you do a lot of multitasking?

If not, then you would be better served by a higher clocked duo like the E8500, a P45 mobo, and 4-8gb of ram.

 

[snarfies1]

On the other hand you might want to wait for Nehalem anyway since when they are released current cpu prices are most likely going to drop. Unless you need it urgently that is.

The only problem with that is that there will ALWAYS be something around the corner to wait for. Once Nehalem comes out you will see posts along the lines of "Should I buy now or wait for Westmere?"

 

[bobwya]

The only problem with that is that there will ALWAYS be something around the corner to wait for. Once Nehalem comes out you will see posts along the lines of "Should I buy now or wait for Westmere?"

Plus like I mentioned the C2D architecture came as a KO reaction to the K8 architecture. Since AMD is backpeddling just now with a rubber ring on Intel don't have to push to hard. Nahelem is mainly aimed at the Server space (plus people after better multicore support) where AMD still has some advantages. So you wait for it mainly for the price reductions in the current processor lineup (late next year I think??)

Bob

 

[reidthaler]

yomamafor1
I would recommend Q6600 over anything at this point. Since you're not as free on money as other early adopters, going Nehalem will not be wise choice.

As for overclocking, you should obtain a 3.2Ghz~3.4Ghz with a good cooler very easily. You can either do so by ASUS's utility (which nets you less overclock), or you can do it by yourself. There are a lot of overclocking guide available online, and a simple search should turn up a lot of results.

I would go for:

Q6600 185USD + Tax
Thermalright Ultra120 60USD + Tax
P5Q Pro 120 + Tax - Rebate
Crucial Ballistix 4GB (2GB x 2) 62 + Tax - Rebate
ATI HD3250 33 + Tax

Why would you recommend the P5Q pro over the P5Q? It looks like the pro has crossfire and 8 gb RAM and the P5q would take 16 GB RAm and no cross fire. Isn't crossfire just for gaming?

Thanks all for great responses. wil write more. got to run

Reid

 

[LAN_deRf_HA]

I'd say build now. I'm all for the Q6600/P5Q setup. Nehalem may launch perfectly, or it may have issues. Either way it doesn't perform better enough to justify the price premium after you factor in DDR3. A quad should provide you with sufficient future proofing as more and more programs take advantage of those cores. On the issue of the P5Q vs. P5Q Pro the only thing I can think to say about it is the non pro version has had some complaints about audio noise.

 

[reidthaler]

Anythought about this barebones?

Just needs CPU fan, hd, and os.

the cpu is $200 alone!

http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=C-C2Q-P6N-K3&AID=10440852&CJPID=227502

Quad Core 2.4GHz Geek Kit™ w/Case, MSI MB, 680W PSU, 2GB RAM, DVD±RW, 56K PCI Modem, Keyboard, Mouse, Speakers

Thanks!

Reid

 

[reidthaler]

First, I want to thank everyone for some excellent advice. The clear majority favor go with a build now approach, as a opposed to wait to ride the bleeding edge.

I looked at the Geeks.com deal, but in the end, I'm still a "roll my own" type.

I'm looking at the Asus P5Q and the P5Q Pro. I see that the boards are very similar feature set, but a different design. It may me more appropriate to create a new message on the mobo forum, so just let me know. I'll be using an Antec P182 so one mobo may cable better than the other. Any recommendations between the 2 boards? I don't game, so I don't know what advantage Crossfire would be.

As far as slots, the only thing I think I would need would be a video card. I need a dual montior card, and preferably fanless. Recommendations? It's my understanding that since I'm not gaming, graphic card RAM doesn't make much of a difference. Recomendations?

(BTW, Newegg appears to be incorrect about the Pro only supporting 8 GB RAM; Asus says 16)

I hate noisy computers and would likely get the Thermalright Ultra-120 extreme. (I have a Thermalright HS on my current computer, and they are nice products) Any chance I can fanless if I don't OC?

I have a Seasonic 460 watt PS, so I can recycle that.

I work in Photoshop and Lightroom. I've heard that they are optimized to use all 4 cores. Plus, my OS would be either Vista 64 (??) or likely XP 64. Rcommendations? I know Vista gets dissed, uses more RAM, and I know XP.

Thanks again everyone, esp yomamafor1 Your recommendations are very close to what I have been thinking.

Reid

 

[yaoiboimi]

the new processors that come out use a different socket type. bye-bye 775... but the new processor does support 1600Mhz and also requires DDR3. Also the motherboards on the market will not support this new processor. There are definitely a lot of advantages of total throughput, but what will the stability be like with the new architecture. I am going to hold off just till I see for myself.

 

[bobwya]

I have a Seasonic 460 watt PS, so I can recycle that.

I work in Photoshop and Lightroom. I've heard that they are optimized to use all 4 cores. Plus, my OS would be either Vista 64 (??) or likely XP 64. Rcommendations? I know Vista gets dissed, uses more RAM, and I know XP.

Thanks again everyone, esp yomamafor1 Your recommendations are very close to what I have been thinking.

Reid

I can only comment to say that Windows XP x64 is OK. The driver situation is good now (inc. a lot of older hardware). I have not tried Windows Vista 64-bit so cannot comment about this at all.

You have to be aware of some very occasional issues with software that force a version check to install or run. This can take a bit of messing about since the use of XP compatibility mode will not change the OS build version that an installer reads. So I am occasionally editing older games (read really old here) and things like the BBC iPlayer (here in the UK) .msi files in Ocra to remove the OS version check. So some old software can cause issues.

I have also had issues with all versions of DVD players by Cyberlink and Corel WinDVD. So I generally just use the codecs in Zoom Player which works fine (and you can use the demo version codecs - sneaky!!) Also very few software firewalls will run under Windows XP x64. The newer AVG one does. So some quirks can bring Windows XP x64 to it's knees (blue screen) but if you learn to avoid these programs it is a very stable OS!!

I have heard of people using and needing big RAM (like 16Gb+) with Photoshop. I only have 4Gb and get along fine without a paging file. So obviously it depends on the size of the files you open and how many you have open at once. I think I am trying to say that 8Gb may be all you need but you will need to judge that yourself!!

As for CPUs the only advice I can find on the web is that Photoshop (>CS3 version I guess??) is multithreaded but not very effectively. Apparently you can't separate the data so successfully for independent processing per thread/core like with video encoding. Just reading the THG CS3 benchmark chart shows this (dual-core Wolfie at the top):
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/charts/desktop-cpu-charts-q3-2008/Photoshop-CS-3,826.html

If you are going for a modest GPU that Seasonic powersupply will be fine. You only need a modest GPU for 2D work of course. My flatmate only uses a HIS 9800 Pro (128Mb) for his 2D animation work. Passive cooling will be fine in a P182 for a low end card. Crossfire is only for enhancing the 3D performance of GPUs (by combining their respective rendering powers into one "supercard").

I wouldn't try and cool your CPU passively that will just lead to system instability. Rather do get your Thermalright HS and use a top quality ultra quiet fan with it. The Arctic cooling PWM fan range are v. good in my personal opinion (the PWM connection will help reduce the noise at low CPU loads - bringing the fan to very low RPM barely above stall speed).

Bob

 

[snarfies1]

My own experiences with XP64 have been more mixed. I was in the middle of playing Gothic 3 when I went from a single-core Athlon64 to a Q9450, and I tried XP64 in the process. Getting all the drivers was no issue. But the game actually performed more slowly than before. Switching back to regular XP fixed that problem. Maybe newer games will run well under XP64, but...

 

[geofelt]

If your programs can use lots of ram,and I believe they do, go ahead and get 8gb. It's cheap, quiet, and can't hurt.

Don't believe the FUD about vista. I have been using vista home premium-64 bit without a problem. For a humorous view on the vista haters, google "mojave experiment"

For a silent graphics card, look at the Asus EN3650, as reviewed by spcr:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article848-page1.html

www.silentpcreview.com is a very good site dedicated to silent computing.

Read their review of the Antec P150. It now is known as the Antec designer 500 which includes a psu. You can get it in black w/o the psu as the Antec Solo. http://www.silentpcreview.com/article272-page1.html They test it with a fanless cpu cooler, and with a quiet fan. You decide.
I use the solo, and can vouch for it's quietness.

If you get a quad, I would suggest one of the newer ones using the 45nm manufacturing process. They are a bit faster, clock for clock, and will run cooler.

You also might want to look into the details. Photoshop CS4 coming in October will use GPU power. That might alter your GPU choice.
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=13040

 

[mikeny]

what about a strictly gaming machine? wait for Nehalem? I was reading that Nehalem is more suited for servers and so much for games. My build time is sometime between next month and maybe as late as december.

I was thinking of getting a E8600 or Q9550 and a 4870 or 4870x2, or 4850x2. Im just afraid of passing Nehalem and seeing that there are noticable gains for games on a Nehalem.

 

[geofelt]

@mikeney:
If your budget for CPU is over $400-$500, then wait for nehalem.
If your game is FSX or supreme commander, then wait for nehalem.
If price and value are issues, then build now with a E8500. Spend your $ on the best vga card you feel comfortable paying for.

 

[yipsl]

The epic "build or wait". Always a tough choice!

I always use my rigs until they are unbearably slow then upgrade to whatever is out at the time unless there is some major, solid launch date coming in the near future.

TC, I'd say you missed a major launch date (and I don't mean Phenom). The way you carry on about Intel, you missed out on C2D. Perhaps Conroe wasn't enough of a boost over your Opteron, but I'm sure the 45nm Intel quads are. Are you waiting to be an early adopter of Nehalem? If not, then why not a Penryn?

To the OP, the Q6600 is the best budget Intel solution right now, especially if you need 4 cores.

I didn't go that route. I love AMD chipsets and ATI graphics. I accept slightly less CPU performance (but not that bad when more than 2 cores are utilized by software). I replaced an Athlon X2 4600+ on a 690V board with a Phenom 8750 on a 780G board.

The reason I didn't go quad is budget and the expected arrival within 6 months of 45nm Deneb quads with L3 cache or Heka triple cores with shared L3 (I'm not that interested in Propus or Rana cores without L3 cache). I simply didn't want to spend too much 6 months before Deneb and didn't want to wait with the slow performance of my old X2 box.

Q6600 is a good choice if you want to overclock and plan on keeping it till you absolutely need something else. If you don't, then it's not significantly better than B3 Phenom's and is an end of life technology that won't have upgrade paths to Nehalem like Phenom has to Deneb. Nehalem will require a new socket and DDR3, whereas Deneb will be backwards compatible with AM2+ boards and DDR2.

Here are a few comparisons between the Q6600 and Phenom's:

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3272&p=9

I got the 8750 because it was $139 right now for the retail version.

http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/amd_phenom_8750/9.html

 

[TechnologyCoordinator]

TC, I'd say you missed a major launch date (and I don't mean Phenom). The way you carry on about Intel, you missed out on C2D. Perhaps Conroe wasn't enough of a boost over your Opteron, but I'm sure the 45nm Intel quads are. Are you waiting to be an early adopter of Nehalem? If not, then why not a Penryn?

lol, when I built this system it originally had aa Athlon 3200+. AMD was stomping Intel both in performance, performance per watt, and price. AMD was the best choice and WAY better than Preshott. Then I wanted to upgrade to dual on the cheap and upgrading to Intel meant new board, new RAM, and new proc, so I stayed with AMD and got my Opty.

I'm not waiting at all. I'm happy with my current rig. It is as Amiga would say, "Fast Enough" to do the stuff I want. If I needed a new rig today I would of course go Intel and probably get the Q6600 or something similar.

 

[reidthaler]

If your programs can use lots of ram,and I believe they do, go ahead and get 8gb. It's cheap, quiet, and can't hurt.

I remember not too long ago paying $120 for 256 MB, so $120 for Ggb seems like a bargain!

Don't believe the FUD about vista. I have been using vista home premium-64 bit without a problem. For a humorous view on the vista haters, google "mojave experiment"

For a silent graphics card, look at the Asus EN3650, as reviewed by spcr:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article848-page1.html

www.silentpcreview.com is a very good site dedicated to silent computing.

I've spent a good deal of time on there site, hence the P182 and Thermalright HS

Read their review of the Antec P150. It now is known as the Antec designer 500 which includes a psu. You can get it in black w/o the psu as the Antec Solo. http://www.silentpcreview.com/article272-page1.html They test it with a fanless cpu cooler, and with a quiet fan. You decide.
I use the solo, and can vouch for it's quietness.

If you get a quad, I would suggest one of the newer ones using the 45nm manufacturing process. They are a bit faster, clock for clock, and will run cooler.

How does the Q8200 sound? http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010340343%2050001157%201051707842%201050727216&bop=And&Order=PRICE

1333MHz, 4MB 2.33



You also might want to look into the details. Photoshop CS4 coming in October will use GPU power. That might alter your GPU choice.
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=13040

Thanks for the heads up. I didn't have a chance to see Adobe's webcast this morning. Looks like the card has changed a bit from SPCR site http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121243 You think 512 would be good?

Thanks for the great info!

Reid

 

[geofelt]

The new 3650 card seems to have some issues, say the comments on newegg. I think it might be better to avoid it.
You might look at the asus en9600GT: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121244
It might be a stronger card than you need though.

I have a XFX 7600GS card which I use in my test/backup PC. It runs cool and works well. It's not a gaming card, though. You might be able to find one somewhere.
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16814150170