Best controller... a defender?

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Dark miasma defender to be exact. Most controllers get their AoE hold
by lvl 26, some by 32. Most of these are around the caster, so the
tradeoff is that the controller (with their low health and defense) has
to get in the middle of the villains and use it. Also, for it to be
effective, it has to be well slotted, so we're talking lvl 36+ or so.
Well, last 2 weeks I've been playing with a dark miasma defender, and I
must say... the fear power is as powerful as any controller AoE hold,
it's cone so no need to be in the middle of the targets, and the
duration is looooooooong!
Sure, mobs hit you back once if you melee them, but ... we're no
scrappers!!!
Also, we get it at level 12!!! An AoE hold at level 12!!!!

I started playing it after I5 so after the supposed 'nerf'... all I can
say is 'pfft!' If this is post nerf, I can only imagine it pre-nerf.
As it is now, I must say it's broken, but not gonna post it in the
official forums

 

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Listen, I also have an earth/FF controller, an Ice/storm controller,
and Mind/storm controller, and now I'm playing a dark miasma/sound
defender, I'm telling you it's better, lasts longer, less chance of
dying from an 'alpha strike', etc. If you don't believe me, try it
yourself.

 

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wolfing wrote:
> Dark miasma defender to be exact. Most controllers get their AoE hold
> by lvl 26, some by 32. Most of these are around the caster, so the
> tradeoff is that the controller (with their low health and defense) has
> to get in the middle of the villains and use it. Also, for it to be
> effective, it has to be well slotted, so we're talking lvl 36+ or so.

All controllers but mind get a pet at lvl 32.

A number of controllers get their hold at lvl 18, not 26.
Some are PBAoE, some aren't.

But they're certainly slotted up well before 36+!

Also, controllers get vast amounts of other control, sleep, disorient,
immobilise, phasing, etc. No to mention that a controller single target
hold is available from level 2 most of the time and is very powerful in
both magnitude and duration.

Sure a Dark Defender can do a good control job, but nothing like a
controller.

--
John Parkinson

 

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John Parkinson <jp--usenet--spam--trap@destiny.org.uk> wrote in
news:slrndi15lq.4tp.jp--usenet--spam--trap@p15163169.pureserver.info:

> wolfing wrote:
>> Dark miasma defender to be exact. Most controllers get their AoE hold
>> by lvl 26, some by 32. Most of these are around the caster, so the
>> tradeoff is that the controller (with their low health and defense) has
>> to get in the middle of the villains and use it. Also, for it to be
>> effective, it has to be well slotted, so we're talking lvl 36+ or so.
>
> All controllers but mind get a pet at lvl 32.
>
> A number of controllers get their hold at lvl 18, not 26.
> Some are PBAoE, some aren't.
>
> But they're certainly slotted up well before 36+!
>
> Also, controllers get vast amounts of other control, sleep, disorient,
> immobilise, phasing, etc. No to mention that a controller single target
> hold is available from level 2 most of the time and is very powerful in
> both magnitude and duration.
>
> Sure a Dark Defender can do a good control job, but nothing like a
> controller.
>

Exactly. I'll put my ice or earth controller up against a dark miasma
defender any day and I guarantee I'll have half or more of the mobs
standing still within moments *and* taking damage from the rest of the team
without fighting back

--
Marc Bissonnette
CGI / Database / Web Management Tools: http://www.internalysis.com
Looking for a new ISP? http://www.canadianisp.com

 

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On 8 Sep 2005 12:33:10 -0700, "wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> scribed into
the ether:

>Dark miasma defender to be exact. Most controllers get their AoE hold
>by lvl 26, some by 32. Most of these are around the caster, so the
>tradeoff is that the controller (with their low health and defense) has
>to get in the middle of the villains and use it. Also, for it to be
>effective, it has to be well slotted, so we're talking lvl 36+ or so.
>Well, last 2 weeks I've been playing with a dark miasma defender, and I
>must say... the fear power is as powerful as any controller AoE hold,
>it's cone so no need to be in the middle of the targets, and the
>duration is looooooooong!
>Sure, mobs hit you back once if you melee them, but ... we're no
>scrappers!!!

Not just melee. Any attack will get them to counterattack.

Feared monsters are also not detoggled the way Held ones are, and there are
mob types which ignore the fear (though they still get the acc debuff).
Nothing is immune to being Held.

>Also, we get it at level 12!!! An AoE hold at level 12!!!!

Technically, being a cone means that it is also not AOE. Cones are tricky.

Unless the mobs are tossing around a lot of cones/AOEs themselves, it is
completely safe for a controller to get into the middle of a pack and
launch an AOE hold. Until that happens, the controller is not on the target
list. After it happens, well...they are all held, aren't they?

 

[Buser]

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Matt Frisch wrote:

> Unless the mobs are tossing around a lot of cones/AOEs themselves, it is
> completely safe for a controller to get into the middle of a pack and
> launch an AOE hold. Until that happens, the controller is not on the target
> list. After it happens, well...they are all held, aren't they?

Bwahahahaha! No.
There's a reason "standard" AoE hold slotting includes multiple accuracy
and rechage Sos.

All AoE holds are as follows.
Illusion/Flash, level 6 power, PBAoE
Gravity/GDF, level 18 power, ranged AoE
Ice/Glacier, level 26 power, PBAoE
Mind/Total Domination, level 18 power, ranged AoE
Fire/Cinders, level 18 power, PBAoE
Earth/Volcanic Gasses, level 26 power, ranged drop pulsing AoE

All of the above except Earth/VG have 55% accuracy, 14 second duration,
4 minute recharge, 20 to 30 endurance cost, magnitude 3. Earth/VG is a
dropped emitter that pulses a mag 1 AoE hold for it's duration.
Many of the sets have other control methods that you see alot more of
then the AoE holds, simply becauce they work better under I5 rules.
Earth and Ice can, for the same slot investment and at lower levels,
perma-knockup with Ice Slick and Earthquake both of which have secondary
effects and auto-hit anything on the ground. Some sets have AoE sleep on
a 90 second timer with 24 second durations, others have AoE
immobilize/disorient combinations (14 seconds again), Gravity gets an
AoE intangible (30 seconds, unenhanceable). All of the non-hold controls
have 65% accuracy, 90 second recharge (exception - immobilize is 45s),
and cost 15 to 20 endurance, the disorients generally run about 14
second durations as I recall. Illusion is the odd man out in that it has
Phantom Army and Spectral Terror as it's non-hold AoE controls.

I think the last time I tested the Fearsome Stare cone it was about 30
second duration and... what... 45? second recharge? Coupled with the
accuracy debuff in FS and Darkest Night, it's pretty much just as good
as any hold or immobilize/disorient combo.

For control under I5 Ice and Earth are wonderful, they rely on the AoE
knockups and use the holds/sleeps to manage additional aggro. Illusion
dose well using Phantom Army and Spectral Terror with lots of recharges.
Mind usually has enough variety in AoEs at 32 that they can use one per
fight and cycle them, or sling single target controls and save the AoEs
for emergencies. Of course everyone in I5 is going to be throwing lots
of single target powers in order to not over-aggro.

On the aggro issue... It's not really a problem with the ranged AoEs but
Illusion, Fire, and Ice all use PBAoEs. Now, your AoE hold will check
target to-hit and generate aggro when clicked... but the hold won't take
effect until the animation finishes. This is a paticular problem with
Flash, it's closely paired with the invisibility powers but has a two
second animation. It looks like it was designed to be a stealth opening
control attack, it's generally considered more of a death sentence for
the controller. Pretty much everything not aggroed by some form of true
taunt (tanker, scrapper, provoke, Force Bubble) will turn and fire on
the Illusion controller before the animation finishes. What's even
better is watching someone new to the game pick up Flash at 6, and
knowing it's massive innaccuracy, recharge, duration problems that can't
be fully corrected until level 22.

Of course if you really want a good AoE hold you need to hit the
Radiation defender set. EMP costs a huge chunk of endurance, but it has
75% accuracy, about a 35 second duration, can do damage to robots,
instantaneous activation animation, and only about 7-8 minute recharge.
It's still PBAoE, but it holds stuff before they shoot you and lasts
forever, recharge isn't even that bad since you don't have to slot extra
accuracy and hold SOs multiply off the base duration.
--
Evil, malice, death, decay,
Just another working day.

 

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On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 18:30:02 -0800, buser@heck.huh scribed into the ether:

>Matt Frisch wrote:
>
>> Unless the mobs are tossing around a lot of cones/AOEs themselves, it is
>> completely safe for a controller to get into the middle of a pack and
>> launch an AOE hold. Until that happens, the controller is not on the target
>> list. After it happens, well...they are all held, aren't they?
>
>Bwahahahaha! No.
>There's a reason "standard" AoE hold slotting includes multiple accuracy
>and rechage Sos.

Yes, so that it doesn't miss, and you can use it a lot. I'm fully aware
that AOE holds have reduced accuracy. It's a nuisance, but it would hardly
be fair to turn an AOE hold into an I-Win button by giving it default power
accuracy.

>Of course if you really want a good AoE hold you need to hit the
>Radiation defender set. EMP costs a huge chunk of endurance, but it has
>75% accuracy, about a 35 second duration, can do damage to robots,
>instantaneous activation animation, and only about 7-8 minute recharge.
>It's still PBAoE, but it holds stuff before they shoot you and lasts
>forever, recharge isn't even that bad since you don't have to slot extra
>accuracy and hold SOs multiply off the base duration.

It's even better than that, actually, as rad defenders will tend to stay
right in the midst of mob piles anyway to get best results from their
toggle debuffs. Radiation Infection is always my lead-off power when facing
a group. In addition to making it so the mobs can barely hit me, it makes
*them* more hittable, so that EMP has an even better chance of landing.

Mostly I don't bother. Rad Infection + Lingering Radiation + Tenebrous
Tentacles floors anything but Boss accuracy, reduces their attack rate by
40%, roots them, and does considerable damage. Tack on Enervating Field
after the first TT application, and the to them damage ramps up
significantly (plus whatever damage they actually land is severely
reduced). I don't need EMP very often...but not every Rad/X is /Dark, and
might have more need for it.

 

[Buser]

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Matt Frisch wrote:
>
> Mostly I don't bother. Rad Infection + Lingering Radiation + Tenebrous
> Tentacles floors anything but Boss accuracy, reduces their attack rate by
> 40%, roots them, and does considerable damage. Tack on Enervating Field
> after the first TT application, and the to them damage ramps up
> significantly (plus whatever damage they actually land is severely
> reduced). I don't need EMP very often...but not every Rad/X is /Dark, and
> might have more need for it.

Yup, with three powers that are available when you want/need them you
have more effective control (and good damage too) than many controllers
can get out of thier primaries. This is part of what makes */Rad and
*/Storm controllers so good, leveraging secondary powers as an effect
multiplier for primary powers.

I keep seeing people yakking about "hold = 1-win", and it never was. The
people who played controllers know that even in I4 simply laying a AoE
hold didn't assure anything. It stopped the action in an area for a bit,
it didn't do any damage, didn't mitigate what happened after it wore
off, didn't help if anything else aggroed in the next minute or so. EMP
was always closer to the mythical "i-win" button with it's much much
better duration and accuracy. I love EMP, it's what I replaced my AoE
holds with on my controllers high enough to have it.

The contention I would make is that a well built and played defender can
control better than many full primary controller sets. I'm thinking
mostly of Rad, Dark, and Storm defenders here in contrast to the
/Empathy and /FF controllers. Of course there's also the whole Hasten
issue too, it's actually optional for defenders who don't have to deal
with four to six 90-240 second recharges. In theory it's not required
for controllers but... with AoE immobilize being the only controller AoE
power with less than a 90 second recharge, I don't see controllers being
able to keep up with teams effectively unless the team just dosen't need
the controller anyways.

Meh, I mostly just don't like the nerf > buff mentality and the
challenge reduction in I5. Just max your damage to win, no thinking, no
stealthing, no tatics past "pull & kill". I5 is just not my play style.

--
Don't tell him she liked them best
For this must ever be
A secret kept from all the rest
Between yourself and me

 

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On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 16:52:28 -0800, buser@heck.huh scribed into the ether:


>I keep seeing people yakking about "hold = 1-win", and it never was.

Exactly, due in part because AOE holds don't have the default 75% accuracy.
If they did, then Holds would be rather grossly overpowered.

> I love EMP, it's what I replaced my AoE
>holds with on my controllers high enough to have it.

The endurance crash it produces is a pretty serious drawback, however.

>The contention I would make is that a well built and played defender can
>control better than many full primary controller sets. I'm thinking
>mostly of Rad, Dark, and Storm defenders here in contrast to the
>/Empathy and /FF controllers. Of course there's also the whole Hasten
>issue too, it's actually optional for defenders who don't have to deal
>with four to six 90-240 second recharges. In theory it's not required
>for controllers but... with AoE immobilize being the only controller AoE
>power with less than a 90 second recharge, I don't see controllers being
>able to keep up with teams effectively unless the team just dosen't need
>the controller anyways.

Which is an amusing counterpoint to the arguement which went on for a while
that nobody needed defenders because controllers could defend just as well
as (or better than) defenders could, and do a ton more damage as well. The
worm doth turn.

 

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On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 06:43:45 -0800, buser@heck.huh scribed into the ether:

>Matt Frisch wrote:
>>
>> Which is an amusing counterpoint to the arguement which went on for a while
>> that nobody needed defenders because controllers could defend just as well
>> as (or better than) defenders could, and do a ton more damage as well. The
>> worm doth turn.
>
>Oddly my controllers never did more damage then my defenders. Even my
>"uber" Ill/Rad was slower and less damaging than my "teamy" FF/Rad. Of
>course part of that was because I slotted for perma-PA and four Phants
>on the controller for <gasp!> more control, while the FFer had awesome
>defense and six slotted snipe and Cosmic Burst for damage.

The pets should have supplied all the damage you need. They aren't whirling
engines of destruction in the way that fire imps are, but they do put out a
lot of hurt. ill/rad controllers in I4 could solo just about any AV,
something no other combo could claim.

> Especially
>comparing my Fire/Rad to my Dark/Elec was harsh, the defender cruised
>through missions on Lightning Bolt and Zapp while the controller took an
>hour per "Defeat All" with poor Air Sup.

Pre-imps, this would certainly be true, but not post.

>I think the original overlap of defender/controller wasn't a bad thing.
>You could get one or the other at the very least, and both at best. It
>was even pretty balanced in that defenders had solid, respectable damage
>at all levels while the controllers only had damage in the end, even if
>it was a bit extreme for two sets when coupled with a paticular
>secondary.

I think CoV has it done better, their controllers (I forget the name) are
Controller primary, and their secondaries are a combination of blaster
primary/secondary powers. No overlap with defenders at all (except in
inflicting damage, and that's not exactly an exclusive area to overlap in).

 

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Not that there are defenders in CoV

 

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Matt Frisch wrote:
> buser@heck.huh scribed into the ether:
> > I keep seeing people yakking about "hold = 1-win", and it never was.

> Exactly, due in part because AOE holds don't have the default 75% accuracy.
> If they did, then Holds would be rather grossly overpowered.

Not in my opinion, mainly because a held mob is not a defeated
one, especially not for the vast majority of AOE holds which
are just a sleep effect that's broken by any damage.

Even a single target hold with full accuracy isn't an "I win"
button - it's a "uh, wait a minute while I feebly pummel you
with my puny fists" button. At one point in the distant past
I had occasion to comment on the amount of time my 22nd level
mind controller required to defeat a single even-con minion
foe, specifically that it's unfair for any process to be that
tedious until it's concluded with an election. I'm sure it
could be argued that the 5 minutes it takes to beat the locked-
down opponent are essentially low risk, but if I'm getting
the same reward for those 5 low risk minutes that a scrapper
is getting for 15 fast-paced exciting seconds it takes to beat
the same foe, I have to feel that I'm not getting the same
value-for-money that the scrapper is.

--
Nathan Engle Computer Support, IUB Psych Dept
nengle@indiana.edu http://mypage.iu.edu/~nengle
"Some Assembly Required"

 

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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:39:21 -0500, Nathan Engle <nengle@indiana.edu>
scribed into the ether:

>Matt Frisch wrote:
>> buser@heck.huh scribed into the ether:
>> > I keep seeing people yakking about "hold = 1-win", and it never was.
>
>> Exactly, due in part because AOE holds don't have the default 75% accuracy.
>> If they did, then Holds would be rather grossly overpowered.
>
>Not in my opinion, mainly because a held mob is not a defeated
>one,

May as well be.

> especially not for the vast majority of AOE holds which
>are just a sleep effect that's broken by any damage.

Well, first off, I've never seen an AOE sleep used in a group, because AOE
damage from everyone-but-the-controller wakes everything up immediately and
is thus useless.

Second, vast majority?
AOE Controller Powers:

Root:
Stone Cages
Fire Cages
Crushing Field
Frostbite

Knockdown:
Earthquake
Ice Slick

Sleep:
Salt Crystals
Flash Freeze
Mass Hypnosis

Disorient:
Stalagmites
Flashfire
Wormhole

Hold:
Volcanic Gasses
Cinders
Gravity Distortion Field
Glacier
Flash
Telekinesis
Total Domination

Then there are a bunch that don't fit into such neat categories, like
Gravity's Dimension Shift, or Mind's Mass Confusion.

What are you talking about?

>Even a single target hold with full accuracy isn't an "I win"
>button - it's a "uh, wait a minute while I feebly pummel you
>with my puny fists" button.

Always worked for me. Course, it helps to have something besides Brawl to
hit with. Air Superiority is a good one, even before the double damage
effect. Held mobs are completely powerless to do anything about it. Only
AVs and Giant Monsters have any real hope of breaking out of it while still
alive. I have no problem keeping Bosses held permenently even at very low
levels with TOs and minimal slotting.

> I'm sure it
>could be argued that the 5 minutes it takes to beat the locked-
>down opponent are essentially low risk, but if I'm getting
>the same reward for those 5 low risk minutes that a scrapper
>is getting for 15 fast-paced exciting seconds it takes to beat
>the same foe, I have to feel that I'm not getting the same
>value-for-money that the scrapper is.

Well, it's a lot faster now.

 

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You should include fears as aoe holds, cause they pretty much are, and
last longer too

 

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hmm... let's be a little honest here. Maybe you were not playing your
scrapper or blaster right. A blaster or scrapper can kill much faster
than a controller with his pet and his 'medium' damage attack. Maybe
illusion controllers with their 3 phantoms and the final pet, but I've
played several controllers (Ice/storm, Earth/FF, Mind/storm, Ill/rad)
and none have killed even close to my fire/dev blaster or my katana/SR
scrapper

 

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wolfing wrote:
> You should include fears as aoe holds, cause they pretty much are, and
> last longer too

They're not much better than sleep really, just like a sleep which
auto-reapplies itself after every attack.

Unless it's PvP and you don't get an attack back.
Then they're amazingly powerful, but, tbh, that's a bug.

--
John Parkinson

 

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"wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1126638200.961044.239020
@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> hmm... let's be a little honest here. Maybe you were not playing your
> scrapper or blaster right. A blaster or scrapper can kill much faster
> than a controller with his pet and his 'medium' damage attack. Maybe
> illusion controllers with their 3 phantoms and the final pet, but I've
> played several controllers (Ice/storm, Earth/FF, Mind/storm, Ill/rad)
> and none have killed even close to my fire/dev blaster or my katana/SR
> scrapper

Agreed. My 40 Earth/Emp 'troller and my 50 Ice/Emp troller can solo
invinceable level missions without a problem with their Earth/Ice golems,
but my 39 Spines/Regen scrapper whips through the same missions in half the
time (assuming all three are killing everything on the map)



--
Marc Bissonnette
CGI / Database / Web Management Tools: http://www.internalysis.com
Looking for a new ISP? http://www.canadianisp.com

 

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Nathan Engle wrote:

>> > especially not for the vast majority of AOE holds which
>> > are just a sleep effect that's broken by any damage.
>
>> Second, vast majority?
>
> Majority of the ones I've used and that I consider a "hold".

Sticking with what I know here.

Grav gets (ignoring 2 attack powers and a pet here):
- single target immobilise
- single target hold
- AoE immobilise
- AoE phase
- AoE hold
- AoE disorient

2 of 6 powers there let the mobs attack back. 1/3 is not a vast majority.
(I use all of them but the AoE immobilise.)

>> Always worked for me. Course, it helps to have something besides Brawl to
>> hit with. Air Superiority is a good one, even before the double damage
>> effect. Held mobs are completely powerless to do anything about it.
>
> And as long as you get off on that one-sided fist-fight for the
> several minutes it lasts that's great. Some people find it dull.

If it took you that long to kill its your own fault for not slotting for
damage. It'd be that slow for a blaster or scrapper too if they don't
slot for any damage.

> It's moderately faster, but still not what I consider to be
> an "I win" button any more than a scrapper wading into a group
> and defeating them all in less time that the troller takes
> to knock down one is an "I win" button for the scrapper.

My 32 troller solos just as safely as my 50 scrapper.
Slower? Perhaps, but only because he's not yet built to perfection. But I
don't think I'm any slower than my scrapper was at 32. Or my blaster.

--
John Parkinson