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Tempeture Monitoring

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October 1, 2009 7:56:12 PM

Hey
Just wondering if anyone could help me figure out if these numbers are just right, or "you need to throw water on that thing man!" I posted the HWmonitor and CPU-Z screens, one is idle and one is under load, playing GTA IV, 1200x856, high detail, decent average fps of 36.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/nfspck/Tempspecs...

Are these temp normal or not?

I know i'm a bit of a noob, i'm just trying to learn something new, I can not find out for instance, when articles are talking about watching CPU temps, are they talking about the CPU temperatures or the Core temps?
Do you think, according to these numbers, that their is any room to over clock without replaces the stock HS?

I built this comp two years ago i was hoping to built another one now but cash is strapped i'm trying to increase the longevity of this one while still being able to play some new games decently.
Thanks.

More about : tempeture monitoring

a b à CPUs
a b K Overclocking
October 1, 2009 10:19:57 PM

51C is fine.
Mine loads in the low 60's.

I wouldn't change to water until I jumped in to the high 60's or low 70's.

Yes there is room to overclock, but being a small overclock you wont notice the difference (5-10%). Get a new heatpipe based heatsink if you want to overclock. Using a CM NS520 on my E8500 at stock, the core temps were below measureable even on load (although once it did hit 45C lol).

What temperature people refer to gets mixed up all the time. I always use 'Core Temp'. There are lots of threads on here about this, and one user in particular has done a huge write up on it, check it out. Unfortunately you can never be sure what temp people are talking about unless you know the tool they're using or specifically say 'core temp'.



a b à CPUs
a c 86 K Overclocking
October 2, 2009 3:17:04 AM

We always talk coretemps, always. Well the informed ones. HWMonitor is another good proggy to use.

Your temps are way good.

Use OCCT linpack test to see what temps are under a good solid load. Games don't push the CPU enuff many times.
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a b à CPUs
a b K Overclocking
October 3, 2009 10:29:30 PM

Conumdrum said:
We always talk coretemps, always. Well the informed ones... Use OCCT linpack test to see what temps are under a good solid load...
Conumdrum ,

Many enthusiasts consider me to be among those who are "informed", and I speak CPU temperature and Core temperature, since Core temperature alone does not reveal the entire thermal "big picture", especially on 45 nanometer Core 2 processors, most of which have poor quality Digital Thermal Sensors (DTS).

Also, while OCCT Linpack is suitable for stability testing, it is not appropriate or recommended for thermal testing. This is why Real Temp uses Prime95 Small FFT's for thermal testing. Please read on ...

Rallo ,

Your CPU temperature is uncalibrated, and reads 6c too low. Also, Hardware Monitor can not be calibrated. SpeedFan allows calibrations for CPU temperature and Core temperatures.
Rallo said:
I can not find out for instance, when articles are talking about watching CPU temps, are they talking about the CPU temperatures or the Core temps?
Excellent question! Typically it's Core temperature, however, let's not speculate about processor temperatures. For everyone's benefit, I am posting the following information. As I've said in countless threads, temperatures and overclocking are all about specifications, so it's very important to be specific. If we're not specific, then the topic makes about as much sense as comparing apples-to-oranges thermal fruit salad in a blender! :pt1cable:  My objective is to assure that enthusiasts understand Intel's specifications, standards and test methods, so they can better decide how to apply and manage their overclocking options.

From Intel's Processor Spec Finder - http://processorfinder.intel.com/List.aspx?ParentRadio=...

All E6x50 variants:

Vcore Max 1.5v
Tcase Max (CPU temperature) 72c
Tjunction (Core temperature) 77c

From the Core i7 and Core 2 Temperature Guide - http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/221745-29-sticky-core...


"Section 1: Introduction

Core i and Core 2 processors have 2 different types of temperature sensors; a CPU case (not computer case) Thermal Diode centered under the Cores, and Digital Thermal Sensors located on each Core. The case Thermal Diode measures Tcase (Temperature case), which is CPU temperature, and the Digital Thermal Sensors measure Tjunction (Temperature junction), which is Core temperature. Since these sensors measure 2 distinct thermal levels, there is a 5c temperature difference between them, which is Tcase to Tjunction Gradient. Core i7’s / i5’s and Core 2 Quad’s have 1 Tcase and 4 Tjunction sensors, while Core 2 Duo's have 1 Tcase and 2 Tjunction sensors ...

... The monitoring utilities provided by motherboard manufacturers monitor CPU temperature, while some popular freeware utilities monitor Core temperatures ... Real Temp ... is recommended for users interested in monitoring Core temperatures only ... SpeedFan monitors Tcase (CPU temperature) and Tjunction (Core temperature) ... "


The Thermal Specification shown in Intel's Processor Spec Finder is Tcase Max (CPU) not Tjunction (Core), which is a very common misconception among most enthusiasts. Since there's a 5c gradient between the CPU sensor and the Core sensors, (shown in the following Intel document) - http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0709/0709.1861.pdf - just add 5c to the value shown in the Spec Finder to determine the corresponding Core temperature, which is 77c for all E6x50 variants.

Intel's second and frequently misunderstood Thermal Specification, Tjunction Max, (100c for all E6x50 variants) applies to overtemp protection such as Throttle and Shutdown, so you don't toast your transistors. As such, any E6x50 Core temperatures which exceed 77c should be considered "overtemp". Further, when specifications are exceeded, then processor degradation becomes a concern, which is explained in the following AnandTech article - http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3...

Prime95 Small FFT's is the Standard for processor thermal testing, because it's a steady-state 100% workload which yields steady-state temperatures, whereas Blend is a memory cyclic workload which yields fluctuating processor temperatures. Small FFT's will reach 97% thermal saturation within 7 to 8 minutes, so a 10 minute test is adequate. Thermal testing should be conducted as close as possible to 22c (72f) Standard ambient, with case covers removed, the computer clear of any desk enclosures, and all fans at 100% RPM to eliminate cooling variables, and to produce consistent and repeatable results for comparisons. If the Gradient between CPU temperature and "mean" (average) Core temperature is not ~ 5c, then BIOS is incorrectly coded. CPU temperature and Core temperatures can be individually calibrated in SpeedFan by following the Calibrations Section in the Temperature Guide.

OCCT and Burn Test (reminiscent of TAT) use LinPack, which shows thermal signatures that resemble the ups and downs of a bad day on the stock market, and cycle between light workloads, through test segments which spray all processor registers with all one's, (100% thermal load, which equates to 115% workload), and can push an overclocked E6x50 at Vcore Max 1.5, right on past Tcase Max! :o 

Since there are very few applications or games that will spike, let alone sustain processor workloads beyond 70% to 85%, utilities which load all registers with all one's are not representative of real-world computing. While these utilities are certainly very useful for stability testing, they are inappropriate for thermal testing. The 3DMark benches are excellent for stability testing, as are applications for ripping and encoding.

The best anaolgy to make sense of CPU temperature and Core temperature is to compare them to a 4 cylinder car that has 5 temperature guages; 4 of the 5 guages are cyclinder head temperatures (closest to the heat source), and the 5th guage is the overall engine temperature, which is 5c lower than the other 4 guages, and is the temperature guage with which we're all familiar. We know that red-line for the E6x50 is 72c (Tcase Max) on the engine temp guage and 77c (Tjunction) on the cylinder head temp guages, but if we push the engine too hard and peg all the guages, (95c Tcase overtemp / 100c Tjunction Max) then the engine will shut down.

If you'd like to learn more about processor temperatures, then just click on the link in my signature.

Hope this helps,

Comp :sol: 
October 3, 2009 10:57:31 PM

Thanks for the replies, you out my mind at ease for now, lol.
Now just have to see how to go about doing some minor oc.

One question so far, I have a GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L, and in the BIOS their is no direct mention of the FSB in their M.I.T section or in any of the other sections of the BIOS. I've been reading article after article on proper procedusres to oc, but can not seem to get past this small hump, any ideas?
Is it the CPU Host Clock Control?
Or just in creasing the voltage to the FSB?

Sorry for being such a noob.... ;) 
a b à CPUs
a c 86 K Overclocking
October 3, 2009 11:06:27 PM

Awesome Computronix! Yes you are way informed, glad to see that info here. I don't get into the temps a lot because mine are just fine, and it does me well enough to use the standard monitoring tools.

And thanks, when I need to calibrate etc, I'll use P95 SFFT, used it before, it's good.

Whats wrong with Linpack? Not enuff loading or too much? I know IntelBurnTest is way more than a load we should ever see, it's for gee wiz loading?

a b à CPUs
a b K Overclocking
October 3, 2009 11:10:20 PM

Rallo ,

CPU Host Clock Control sounds like you're in the right place, however, you can post a question on Graysky's Overclocking Guide for a response from someone with your board and BIOS version. Our Stickies have been moved to the newly created Intel Forum.
a b à CPUs
a b K Overclocking
October 3, 2009 11:14:42 PM

Conumdrum said:
Whats wrong with Linpack? Not enuff loading or too much?
Both. From my post:

Prime95 Small FFT's is the Standard for processor thermal testing, because it's a steady-state [b said:
100% workload which yields steady-state temperatures,..

OCCT and Burn Test (reminiscent of TAT) use LinPack, which shows thermal signatures that resemble the ups and downs of a bad day on the stock market, and cycle between light workloads, through test segments which spray all processor registers with all one's, (100% thermal load, which equates to 115% workload), and can push an overclocked E6x50 at Vcore Max 1.5, right on past Tcase Max! :o 

Since there are very few applications or games that will spike, let alone sustain processor workloads beyond 70% to 85%, utilities which load all registers with all one's are not representative of real-world computing. While these utilities are certainly very useful for stability testing, they are inappropriate for thermal testing.]Prime95 Small FFT's is the Standard for processor thermal testing, because it's a steady-state 100% workload which yields steady-state temperatures,..

OCCT and Burn Test (reminiscent of TAT) use LinPack, which shows thermal signatures that resemble the ups and downs of a bad day on the stock market, and cycle between light workloads, through test segments which spray all processor registers with all one's, (100% thermal load, which equates to 115% workload), and can push an overclocked E6x50 at Vcore Max 1.5, right on past Tcase Max! :o 

Since there are very few applications or games that will spike, let alone sustain processor workloads beyond 70% to 85%, utilities which load all registers with all one's are not representative of real-world computing. While these utilities are certainly very useful for stability testing, they are inappropriate for thermal testing.
[/b]
a b à CPUs
a b K Overclocking
October 3, 2009 11:41:15 PM

First, there is no problem with 65C core temps. But calling them "Full Load" may not be the case at all.

Thermal temps at full load are best determined at full load, and the best way to do that is to run Prime95 (with "Detect rounding errors" checked) on all cores for at least an hour, watching temps. Generally speaking, we don't want core temps over 70C over the long term, so stop the test if temperatures pass 70C and look like they are headed to 75C.

Get Prime95 here: http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/latest-overclocking-pro...

If that happens, install an aftermarket cooler and/or improve the air flow out of the case. The cooler gets heat out of the cpu, and air flow gets the heat out of the case.
a b à CPUs
a b K Overclocking
October 4, 2009 12:06:41 AM

Twoboxer said:
run Prime95 ... for at least an hour, watching temps. Generally speaking, we don't want core temps over 70C over the long term, so stop the test if temperatures pass 70C and look like they are headed to 75C.
Twoboxer ,

Although most of your advice is well founded, I am painfully aware that sometimes enthusiasts read a question and post an answer without reading the entire thread. Respectfully, did you read what I posted above? I conduct my research and testing responsibly and thoroughly, in order to provide accurate figures for our readers. Please, let's not confuse anyone with conflicting information. I've already covered this in detail, according to Intel's specifications, and according to my findings, which have been verified, validated and confirmed on numerous occasions by knowledgable sources, such as the author of Real Temp.

From my above post:

Prime95 ... Small FFT's will reach 97% thermal saturation within 7 to 8 minutes, so a 10 minute test is adequate. said:
Prime95 ... Small FFT's will reach 97% thermal saturation within 7 to 8 minutes, so a 10 minute test is adequate.
You recommended "for at least an hour" which is a waste of time. Proof available upon request.

All E6x50 variants:

Vcore Max 1.5v
Tcase Max (CPU temperature) 72c
Tjunction (Core temperature) 77c said:
All E6x50 variants:

Vcore Max 1.5v
Tcase Max (CPU temperature) 72c
Tjunction (Core temperature) 77c
This is not "Generally speaking", but is instead exact information which I provided specifically for the OP's processor variant, and followed up with a thorough explanation, including links to back it up.

Comp :sol: 
a b à CPUs
a b K Overclocking
October 4, 2009 1:22:29 AM

Here is a visual example of why LINPACK/Intel Burn Test/LinX/<insert other GUI for LINPACK> is not suitable for reaching a stable maximum temperature:



Note the cyclic load and significant regular drop in temperature.
a b à CPUs
a b K Overclocking
October 4, 2009 4:32:19 AM

@computronix

Yes, I read the entire thread.

In any case, what concerned me was the OP's response. After your post, he gave no indication he was doing anything other than proceeding to OC. IMO, that was not the correct take-away if in fact he read and understood your post.

So I chose to briefly address the central issue.

I certainly trust you when you say a 10 minute thermal test is perfectly adequate for a cpu.

But I will continue to recommend a one hour test in cases like this because cpus are in a case and that case may be near or under furniture and all that stuff is in a room and that room does not always start at 71.6F. And because other failures not apparent after 10 minutes may become so after longer periods of stress, whether thermal or not. Doing my own as well as remote diagnoses has taught me that's the best approach.

So on that point and that point only we may well have to agree to disagree.

a b à CPUs
a b K Overclocking
October 4, 2009 4:54:39 AM

@ randomizer,

Thanks for posting that visualization. An image is worth a hundred words. :D 

@ twoboxer,

Here's another example. The proof is in observing the thermal signatures, which respond directly to workload.

Shown below is Prime95 Blend, then Idle. Blend creates a varying thermal signature due to a cyclic workload.



Shown below is Prime 95 Small FFT's, then Idle. Small FFT's provides a steady-state thermal signature due to a steady-state 100% workload.



This is why Small FFT's is the Standard for thermal benchmarking. Again, saturation is typically reached within 7 to 8 minutes, so a 10 minute test is adcequate. While I agree with you that test durations of at least 8 hours are recommended for stability testing, longer durations may yield only a 1c increase in a closed case environment.

There's 101 variables that contribute to computer temperatures, so in the Calibrations Section of my Guide, I show a very specific Test Setup which is designed to eliminate as many of these variables as possible, so that enthusiasts will have consistent and repeatable results for apples-to-apples comparisons.

From the Guide:


Section 9: Calibrations

Note: It is preferred, but not required, that Calibrations be conducted as close to 22c Standard Ambient as possible, which provides a normal temperature ceiling, and maintains environmental consistency for comparing Idle and Load temperatures among processor variants and system platforms.

Prerequisites:

(A) CPU cooler correctly installed.

(D) Follow the Test Setup: (Standardized configuration for maximum cooling at Auto Vcore, Frequency and Multiplier).

Computer Case Covers = Removed
Computer Case Fans = Manual 100% RPM
CPU Fan = Manual 100% RPM
CPU Frequency = Auto (See Note 1: below) **
CPU Internal Thermal Control = Enabled
Enhanced C1 Control (C1E) = Enabled
Internet = Disconnected
Memory Frequency = Auto
PECI (If Equipped) = Enabled
Speedstep (EIST) = Enabled
Vcore = Auto (See Note 1: below) **
Vdimm = Auto
Windows Programs = Closed


Part 1: Calibration - Tcase Idle (Uses maximum cooling at minimum Vcore, Frequency and Multiplier)

** Note 1: If BIOS does not respond properly to Auto Vcore, Frequency and Multiplier settings, then use an appropriate combination of manual settings to provide the following in CPU-Z:

Core Voltage = 1.100 V
Core Speed = 1600 Mhz (Core i7 processors)
Core Speed = 1600 Mhz (Core 2 - 65 nm processors)
Core Speed = 2000 Mhz (Core 2 - 45 nm processors)

(A) Measure Ambient near the computer case air intake, clear of warm exhaust. A trusted indoor analog or digital thermometer will suffice. The accuracy of this device and measurement will determine the overall accuracy of the Calibrations.


As you can see, when the Test Setup is followed to the letter, it's hard to screw up the results. It's as close as we can get to conducting a controlled experiment. If you're a pilot, then think of it as following the ckeck list.

Comp :sol: 
!