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ATSC 8VSB News

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Anonymous
July 24, 2004 9:14:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

<http://www.digitaltelevision.com/mondaymemo/mlist/frm02...;

"We just did a test, this morning, in my apartment, and I thought
the news was too important not to release immediately. Present
were two senior research engineers from LG Electronics in Korea,
Bob Miller and an associate from Viacel, and Richard Bogner and
an associate. Miller had arranged for the test in my apartment.
The receiver was the LG LST-3100A."

Kirk Bayne
alt.video.digital-tv Home Page
<http://www.geocities.com/lislislislis/avdtv.htm&gt;

More about : atsc 8vsb news

Anonymous
July 24, 2004 9:26:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

K. B. wrote:

> <http://www.digitaltelevision.com/mondaymemo/mlist/frm02...;
>
> "We just did a test, this morning, in my apartment, and I thought
> the news was too important not to release immediately. Present
> were two senior research engineers from LG Electronics in Korea,
> Bob Miller and an associate from Viacel, and Richard Bogner and
> an associate. Miller had arranged for the test in my apartment.
> The receiver was the LG LST-3100A."
>
> Kirk Bayne
> alt.video.digital-tv Home Page
> <http://www.geocities.com/lislislislis/avdtv.htm&gt;

My response to Mark's post on OpenDTV was ...

Can confirm Mark's enthusiastic post.

Richard Bogner is the Bogner of Bogner antenna. His broadcast antennas
account for a fair proportion of all full power antennas. He is one of
the RF pioneers of the TV age. My associate was Meric Adriansen who is
responsible computer technology behind the ABC sign in Times Square as
well as the new J.P. Morgan sign on the Rudin Reuters building at 3
Times square that is composed of the equivalent of three HDTV 1080i
signals horizontally. I think it is 125 by 25 ft. and wraps around the
NW corner of 42nd and 7th Ave. It has been lit only the last week or so.

Congratulations should go to Sung-Ryong Hong who arrived last night from
Seoul Korea and if I heard right is the engineer most responsible for
the 5th generation Zenith receiver. He was accompanied by Mr. Ja-Hyuk Koo.

Before testing at Mark's apartment I tested at my apartment on Roosevelt
Island in the East River and I can say that this is truly a receiver
that works plug and play right out of the box WITH NO INSTRUCTION MANUAL
since they didn't include one if they even have one yet. I will post the
details of each location tested later.

We also tested at 32 Ave. of Americas on the 25th floor which is the
former AT&T World HDQTs floor and one location from which we have been
broadcasting COFDM. I believe we received 11 channels there with a
random placement of a bow tie antenna. We also tested at Richard
Bogner's home in Roslyn Long Island. His home is secluded in high large
trees and there is a hill between him and Manhattan at around 20 miles.
He has had many multipath problems and a limited selection of channels
that he could receive at all. When it is windy he has atrocious reception.

He was very impressed with the new receiver and it picked up
successfully every channel he thought possible.

The clear winner in the antenna department were the simplest loop and
rectangle antennas both beating out the quad bow tie, a Weingard HDTV, a
Radio Shack powered antenna, another similar unpowered RS antenna. The
rectangular wire antenna (can't cost more than $5) tied with Richard
Bogner's monstrous rooftop Yagi antenna with rotor. The rooftop only
matched the wire antenna by using two different directions.

The wire antenna was taped to a bedroom window casually by Richard with
a piece of scotch tape.

The receiver could work portable if you do not mind using a directional
antenna. By portable in this case I mean take a portable DTV to another
fixed location and fiddle with a simple antenna for a moment.

This 5th generation receiver will not do true portable or mobile in any
way. COFDM still blows it away and Mr. Hong did not seem to have much
faith that such would be the case in any reasonable timeframe.

That being said this 5th generation receiver does replicate NTSC if you
leave out the mobile part. It will cause the transition to digital to
finally proceed IMO.

Two weeks ago I called Hisense and told them I would be interested in
their receiver if they could use Zenith 5th generation tech and WM9.
Seems that is in the cards now to. They said at the time that they could
do it. That and a rave review from Mark Aitken made me call LG who
promptly sent a 5th gen receiver DHL and two senior engineer designers.

The only thing that confuses me is why LG didn't drop 8-VSB in 2000 for
COFDM. They would have sold a ton more HDTV sets in the last four years.
Easy to see why S. Korean broadcasters caved on COFDM and why it was
easier for Mexico to get off the fence now.

BTW we still cannot broadcast a signal (COFDM) of any strength above
Midtown because of interference issues.

Bob Miller
Viacel
Anonymous
July 24, 2004 10:14:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 05:26:37 GMT, Bob Miller
<robmx@earthlink.net> posted:

>This 5th generation receiver will not do true portable or mobile in any
>way. COFDM still blows it away and Mr. Hong did not seem to have much
>faith that such would be the case in any reasonable timeframe.

Put this new ATSC 8VSB receiver and a TV/VCR combo in a vehicle
and try out mobile 8VSB reception. Connect a microphone to the
TV/VCR audio input to provide a running commentary of the
reception locations for later analysis of the VHS recording of
the ATSC(NTSC) signal.

Kirk Bayne
alt.video.digital-tv Home Page
<http://www.geocities.com/lislislislis/avdtv.htm&gt;
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Anonymous
July 25, 2004 12:10:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Within these hallowed halls, K. B. of <hotmail.com@lis2lis2> added the
following to the collective conscience:
> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 05:26:37 GMT, Bob Miller
> <robmx@earthlink.net> posted:
>
>> This 5th generation receiver will not do true portable or mobile in
>> any way. COFDM still blows it away and Mr. Hong did not seem to have
>> much faith that such would be the case in any reasonable timeframe.
>
> Put this new ATSC 8VSB receiver and a TV/VCR combo in a vehicle
> and try out mobile 8VSB reception. Connect a microphone to the
> TV/VCR audio input to provide a running commentary of the
> reception locations for later analysis of the VHS recording of
> the ATSC(NTSC) signal.
>
Don't worry Kirk, I'm sure there are many individuals around the U.S. who
would be more than happy to perform such an experiment just to post the
results.
July 25, 2004 5:47:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"K. B." <hotmail.com@lis2lis2> wrote in message
news:4101f011.1715672@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> <http://www.digitaltelevision.com/mondaymemo/mlist/frm02...;
>
> "We just did a test, this morning, in my apartment, and I thought
> the news was too important not to release immediately. Present
> were two senior research engineers from LG Electronics in Korea,
> Bob Miller and an associate from Viacel, and Richard Bogner and
> an associate. Miller had arranged for the test in my apartment.
> The receiver was the LG LST-3100A."


"With a simple loop antenna, with NO care in the positioning, we were able to
pull in seven DTT stations reliably. When I say "reliably," I mean not only that
the pictures and sound were okay but that people could move around the room and
I could move the antenna around without causing any breakup."

Why is this amazing?


Az.
Anonymous
July 25, 2004 5:47:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Aztech wrote:

> "K. B." <hotmail.com@lis2lis2> wrote in message
> news:4101f011.1715672@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
>
>><http://www.digitaltelevision.com/mondaymemo/mlist/frm02...;
>>
>>"We just did a test, this morning, in my apartment, and I thought
>>the news was too important not to release immediately. Present
>>were two senior research engineers from LG Electronics in Korea,
>>Bob Miller and an associate from Viacel, and Richard Bogner and
>>an associate. Miller had arranged for the test in my apartment.
>>The receiver was the LG LST-3100A."
>
>
>
> "With a simple loop antenna, with NO care in the positioning, we were able to
> pull in seven DTT stations reliably. When I say "reliably," I mean not only that
> the pictures and sound were okay but that people could move around the room and
> I could move the antenna around without causing any breakup."
>
> Why is this amazing?

Google up bob miller's posts about reception in that apartment.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game
July 25, 2004 8:05:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Aztech" <az@tech.com> wrote in message
news:AROMc.1476803$ef4.176461@news.easynews.com...
> "K. B." <hotmail.com@lis2lis2> wrote in message
> news:4101f011.1715672@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> > <http://www.digitaltelevision.com/mondaymemo/mlist/frm02...;
> >
> > "We just did a test, this morning, in my apartment, and I thought
> > the news was too important not to release immediately. Present
> > were two senior research engineers from LG Electronics in Korea,
> > Bob Miller and an associate from Viacel, and Richard Bogner and
> > an associate. Miller had arranged for the test in my apartment.
> > The receiver was the LG LST-3100A."
>
>
> "With a simple loop antenna, with NO care in the positioning, we were able
to
> pull in seven DTT stations reliably. When I say "reliably," I mean not
only that
> the pictures and sound were okay but that people could move around the
room and
> I could move the antenna around without causing any breakup."
>
> Why is this amazing?
>
>

Wouldn't it depend on transmission frequencies and power levels?

> Az.
>
>
Anonymous
July 26, 2004 12:04:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Aztech wrote:
> "K. B." <hotmail.com@lis2lis2> wrote in message
> news:4101f011.1715672@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
>
>><http://www.digitaltelevision.com/mondaymemo/mlist/frm02...;
>>
>>"We just did a test, this morning, in my apartment, and I thought
>>the news was too important not to release immediately. Present
>>were two senior research engineers from LG Electronics in Korea,
>>Bob Miller and an associate from Viacel, and Richard Bogner and
>>an associate. Miller had arranged for the test in my apartment.
>>The receiver was the LG LST-3100A."
>
>
>
> "With a simple loop antenna, with NO care in the positioning, we were able to
> pull in seven DTT stations reliably. When I say "reliably," I mean not only that
> the pictures and sound were okay but that people could move around the room and
> I could move the antenna around without causing any breakup."
>
> Why is this amazing?
>
>
> Az.
>
>
It is only amazing in relationship to what was previously experienced
with 8-SVB in those locations. It is truly a major improvement in an
8-VSB receiver. And a perfect way to show exactly how much of an
improvement is to try a 4th generation 8-VSB receiver in the same
location at the same time.

Not close to COFDM as the two Senior Engineers admitted during the
testing. When asked about the possibility and time schedule for a
compatible 8-SVB receiver that could do mobile/portable they expressed
serious doubt about any possible time frame.

COFDM is king but at least we have something that works in the US now.
Broadcasters can have a business plan and I think you will see a lot of
action as soon as these receivers hit the stores.
July 26, 2004 1:34:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7nUMc.14019$mL5.906@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Aztech wrote:
> > "K. B." <hotmail.com@lis2lis2> wrote in message
> > news:4101f011.1715672@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> >><http://www.digitaltelevision.com/mondaymemo/mlist/frm02...;
> >>
> >>"We just did a test, this morning, in my apartment, and I thought
> >>the news was too important not to release immediately. Present
> >>were two senior research engineers from LG Electronics in Korea,
> >>Bob Miller and an associate from Viacel, and Richard Bogner and
> >>an associate. Miller had arranged for the test in my apartment.
> >>The receiver was the LG LST-3100A."
> >
> >
> >
> > "With a simple loop antenna, with NO care in the positioning, we were
able to
> > pull in seven DTT stations reliably. When I say "reliably," I mean not
only that
> > the pictures and sound were okay but that people could move around the
room and
> > I could move the antenna around without causing any breakup."
> >
> > Why is this amazing?
> >
> >
> > Az.
> >
> >
> It is only amazing in relationship to what was previously experienced
> with 8-SVB in those locations. It is truly a major improvement in an
> 8-VSB receiver. And a perfect way to show exactly how much of an
> improvement is to try a 4th generation 8-VSB receiver in the same
> location at the same time.
>
> Not close to COFDM as the two Senior Engineers admitted during the
> testing. When asked about the possibility and time schedule for a
> compatible 8-SVB receiver that could do mobile/portable they expressed
> serious doubt about any possible time frame.
>
> COFDM is king but at least we have something that works in the US now.
> Broadcasters can have a business plan and I think you will see a lot of
> action as soon as these receivers hit the stores.

Will the new chip set add to receiver cost Bob, or will the potential
increase in sales cancel out any extra production costs?
Prices here in the UK keep falling, and I notice that one company is now
selling them for as little as £37.99 http://tinyurl.com/3lmv3
Anonymous
July 26, 2004 3:05:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

manitou910 (manitou910@rogers.com) wrote in alt.video.digital-tv:
> This is good news -- except that the best current US TV programing is
> from cable-only networks, most notably HBO.

Well, that's arguable, because there is a large faction that feels many
of the actual storylines/plots are fairly weak, but a little T&A and bad
language make the show "better".

There are quite a few great shows on network TV without having to resort
to such things. Although it might not be your cup of tea, "Navy NCIS" was
pretty compelling this past year, and you don't have to suspend nearly
as much disbelief as you do for the various CSI incarnations.

> People are watching _less_ OTA network TV than a decade ago and I don't
> see this trend changing.

People are watching less TV...OTA *or* cable stations. DVDs, video games,
and a lot of other activities are taking people away from TV.

--
Jeff Rife |
SPAM bait: | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/OverTheHedge/TiVoForRealLi...
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
uce@ftc.gov |
Anonymous
July 26, 2004 3:34:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

ivan wrote:
> "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:7nUMc.14019$mL5.906@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>>Aztech wrote:
>>
>>>"K. B." <hotmail.com@lis2lis2> wrote in message
>>>news:4101f011.1715672@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>><http://www.digitaltelevision.com/mondaymemo/mlist/frm02...;
>>>>
>>>>"We just did a test, this morning, in my apartment, and I thought
>>>>the news was too important not to release immediately. Present
>>>>were two senior research engineers from LG Electronics in Korea,
>>>>Bob Miller and an associate from Viacel, and Richard Bogner and
>>>>an associate. Miller had arranged for the test in my apartment.
>>>>The receiver was the LG LST-3100A."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"With a simple loop antenna, with NO care in the positioning, we were
>
> able to
>
>>>pull in seven DTT stations reliably. When I say "reliably," I mean not
>
> only that
>
>>>the pictures and sound were okay but that people could move around the
>
> room and
>
>>>I could move the antenna around without causing any breakup."
>>>
>>>Why is this amazing?
>>>
>>>
>>>Az.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>It is only amazing in relationship to what was previously experienced
>>with 8-SVB in those locations. It is truly a major improvement in an
>>8-VSB receiver. And a perfect way to show exactly how much of an
>>improvement is to try a 4th generation 8-VSB receiver in the same
>>location at the same time.
>>
>>Not close to COFDM as the two Senior Engineers admitted during the
>>testing. When asked about the possibility and time schedule for a
>>compatible 8-SVB receiver that could do mobile/portable they expressed
>>serious doubt about any possible time frame.
>>
>>COFDM is king but at least we have something that works in the US now.
>>Broadcasters can have a business plan and I think you will see a lot of
>>action as soon as these receivers hit the stores.
>
>
> Will the new chip set add to receiver cost Bob, or will the potential
> increase in sales cancel out any extra production costs?
> Prices here in the UK keep falling, and I notice that one company is now
> selling them for as little as £37.99 http://tinyurl.com/3lmv3
>
>
We will be talking to manufacturers starting tomorrow. Have no idea yet.
Anonymous
July 26, 2004 3:52:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

ivan wrote:

> "Matthew L. Martin" <nothere@notnow.never> wrote in message
> news:10g8cope1at8kc9@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>manitou910 wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bob Miller wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>It is only amazing in relationship to what was previously experienced
>>>>with 8-SVB in those locations. It is truly a major improvement in an
>>>>8-VSB receiver. And a perfect way to show exactly how much of an
>>>>improvement is to try a 4th generation 8-VSB receiver in the same
>>>>location at the same time.
>>>>
>>>>Not close to COFDM as the two Senior Engineers admitted during the
>>>>testing. When asked about the possibility and time schedule for a
>>>>compatible 8-SVB receiver that could do mobile/portable they expressed
>>>>serious doubt about any possible time frame.
>>>>
>>>>COFDM is king but at least we have something that works in the US now.
>>>>Broadcasters can have a business plan and I think you will see a lot
>>>>of action as soon as these receivers hit the stores.
>>>
>>>
>>>This is good news -- except that the best current US TV programing is
>>>from cable-only networks, most notably HBO.
>>>
>>>People are watching _less_ OTA network TV than a decade ago and I don't
>>>see this trend changing.
>>>
>>>I expect the broadcast networks in another decade or so will have
>>>descended to the status of AM radio. News and sports will be about the
>>>only reason to continue watching.
>>>
>>>Raucious commercials virtually destroy even the small amount of quality
>>>programs from the broadcast networks.
>>
>>A major owner of US radio stations has recently announced that it is
>>going to reduce the number of commercial minutes available to be sold.
>>They are concerned about exactly the problem you cite.
>>
>
>
> I read in yesterday's (London) Times newspaper, that because advertisers
> know that increasing numbers of people are rapidly skiping through adverts
> with PVRs, they have now come up with a system that can impinge a message on
> the viewers brain, even when the PVR is being scanned at 30 times normal
> speed!
>
Is that spelled subliminal? As in from the sixties?

http://www.poleshift.org/sublim/
Anonymous
July 26, 2004 4:23:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
>>
>> I read in yesterday's (London) Times newspaper, that because advertisers
>> know that increasing numbers of people are rapidly skiping through
>> adverts
>> with PVRs, they have now come up with a system that can impinge a
>> message on
>> the viewers brain, even when the PVR is being scanned at 30 times normal
>> speed!
>>
> Is that spelled subliminal? As in from the sixties?

The great bicameral mind IIRC....








C.
Anonymous
July 26, 2004 3:33:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

ivan wrote:
> "Matthew L. Martin" <nothere@notnow.never> wrote in message
> news:10g8cope1at8kc9@corp.supernews.com...
>> manitou910 wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Miller wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is only amazing in relationship to what was previously
>>>> experienced with 8-SVB in those locations. It is truly a major
>>>> improvement in an 8-VSB receiver. And a perfect way to show
>>>> exactly how much of an improvement is to try a 4th generation
>>>> 8-VSB receiver in the same location at the same time.
>>>>
>>>> Not close to COFDM as the two Senior Engineers admitted during the
>>>> testing. When asked about the possibility and time schedule for a
>>>> compatible 8-SVB receiver that could do mobile/portable they
>>>> expressed serious doubt about any possible time frame.
>>>>
>>>> COFDM is king but at least we have something that works in the US
>>>> now. Broadcasters can have a business plan and I think you will
>>>> see a lot of action as soon as these receivers hit the stores.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is good news -- except that the best current US TV programing
>>> is from cable-only networks, most notably HBO.
>>>
>>> People are watching _less_ OTA network TV than a decade ago and I
>>> don't see this trend changing.
>>>
>>> I expect the broadcast networks in another decade or so will have
>>> descended to the status of AM radio. News and sports will be about
>>> the only reason to continue watching.
>>>
>>> Raucious commercials virtually destroy even the small amount of
>>> quality programs from the broadcast networks.
>>
>> A major owner of US radio stations has recently announced that it is
>> going to reduce the number of commercial minutes available to be
>> sold. They are concerned about exactly the problem you cite.
>>
>
> I read in yesterday's (London) Times newspaper, that because
> advertisers know that increasing numbers of people are rapidly
> skiping through adverts with PVRs, they have now come up with a
> system that can impinge a message on the viewers brain, even when the
> PVR is being scanned at 30 times normal speed!
>

Anyone remember the "Blipverts" from Max Headroom?

Steve
Anonymous
July 26, 2004 3:35:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin wrote:
> manitou910 wrote:

[snip]

>> Raucious commercials virtually destroy even the small amount of
>> quality programs from the broadcast networks.
>
> A major owner of US radio stations has recently announced that it is
> going to reduce the number of commercial minutes available to be sold.
> They are concerned about exactly the problem you cite.
>

In the UK the UKTV group (a joint venture between the BBC and Flextech) has
come to a similar decision with regard to its TV channels. They announced a
while back that they were considering reducing the length of their peak-time
programme junctions (the gaps of trails and ads between shows) to try to
avoid people surfing away.

Steve
Anonymous
July 26, 2004 3:40:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>
>> manitou910 wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Miller wrote:
>>>
[snip]

>> A major owner of US radio stations has recently announced that it is
>> going to reduce the number of commercial minutes available to be
>> sold. They are concerned about exactly the problem you cite.
>
> I think you are right but the more immediate problem they are
> concerned with is XMRadio and Sirius.
>
> Everything is converging however. Radio and Television are converging.
> One DTV channel we got on our test yesterday in New York City had a
> bunch of audio only (radio) on sub channels. XM and Sirius are talking
> of adding video. Cable is adding VOIP. Cable is already TV and radio.
>

Yep - the same is true in the UK. The main digital TV platforms - cable,
satellite, terrestrial - all carry a large number of radio stations (some
unique to digital, some analogue AM and FM services simulcasted) in addition
to TV. Although we also have DAB digital radio, the percentage of listening
via digital TV is significant. The advantages of having EPG/Digital Text
using MHEG also means that the radio over TV broadcasts have channel logos
and/or programme details.

There area also a number of 1/4 screen video services on the digital TV
platforms, which are supported by digital text applications - a convergence
of video and text. This allows a headline news loop to be watched, whilst
reading supporting and additional text information. Some of these video
loops are also available via the internet!

You are right - the world is a changing.

Steve
July 26, 2004 5:03:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Stephen Neal" <stephen.neal@nospam.please.as-directed.com> wrote in message
news:ce2mlm$sac$1$830fa17d@news.demon.co.uk...
> ivan wrote:
> > "Matthew L. Martin" <nothere@notnow.never> wrote in message
> > news:10g8cope1at8kc9@corp.supernews.com...
> >> manitou910 wrote:
> >>
> >>> Bob Miller wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> It is only amazing in relationship to what was previously
> >>>> experienced with 8-SVB in those locations. It is truly a major
> >>>> improvement in an 8-VSB receiver. And a perfect way to show
> >>>> exactly how much of an improvement is to try a 4th generation
> >>>> 8-VSB receiver in the same location at the same time.
> >>>>
> >>>> Not close to COFDM as the two Senior Engineers admitted during the
> >>>> testing. When asked about the possibility and time schedule for a
> >>>> compatible 8-SVB receiver that could do mobile/portable they
> >>>> expressed serious doubt about any possible time frame.
> >>>>
> >>>> COFDM is king but at least we have something that works in the US
> >>>> now. Broadcasters can have a business plan and I think you will
> >>>> see a lot of action as soon as these receivers hit the stores.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This is good news -- except that the best current US TV programing
> >>> is from cable-only networks, most notably HBO.
> >>>
> >>> People are watching _less_ OTA network TV than a decade ago and I
> >>> don't see this trend changing.
> >>>
> >>> I expect the broadcast networks in another decade or so will have
> >>> descended to the status of AM radio. News and sports will be about
> >>> the only reason to continue watching.
> >>>
> >>> Raucious commercials virtually destroy even the small amount of
> >>> quality programs from the broadcast networks.
> >>
> >> A major owner of US radio stations has recently announced that it is
> >> going to reduce the number of commercial minutes available to be
> >> sold. They are concerned about exactly the problem you cite.
> >>
> >
> > I read in yesterday's (London) Times newspaper, that because
> > advertisers know that increasing numbers of people are rapidly
> > skiping through adverts with PVRs, they have now come up with a
> > system that can impinge a message on the viewers brain, even when the
> > PVR is being scanned at 30 times normal speed!
> >
>
> Anyone remember the "Blipverts" from Max Headroom?
>

> S
Can't say as I do, however, as Bob has already pointed out, it amounts to
little more than subliminal advertising, which I was under the impression
was outlawed here (in the UK) in the 1960s.

teve
>
>
Anonymous
July 26, 2004 7:03:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Stephen Neal wrote:
>
> Yep - the same is true in the UK. The main digital TV platforms - cable,
> satellite, terrestrial - all carry a large number of radio stations (some
> unique to digital, some analogue AM and FM services simulcasted) in addition
> to TV. Although we also have DAB digital radio, the percentage of listening
> via digital TV is significant. The advantages of having EPG/Digital Text
> using MHEG also means that the radio over TV broadcasts have channel logos
> and/or programme details.

Ditto in Canada.

Digital cable (and IINM satellite also) offers the CBC's Galaxie service
of dosens of all-music channels.










C.
Anonymous
July 26, 2004 9:06:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

ivan (Ivan'H'older@yahoo.co.uk) wrote in alt.video.digital-tv:
> Can't say as I do, however, as Bob has already pointed out, it amounts to
> little more than subliminal advertising, which I was under the impression
> was outlawed here (in the UK) in the 1960s.

The US has no such law, and I'd be surprised if the UK had a law that
actually prevents subliminal images/sounds. They might have *tried* to
write such a law, but it probably won't be written well enough to really
stop anything.

--
Jeff Rife |
SPAM bait: | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Dilbert/LoveRanking.jpg
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
uce@ftc.gov |
Anonymous
July 26, 2004 9:20:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

manitou910 <manitou910@rogers.com> wrote:

> Don't expect HBO (or Showtime) shows OTA for a _long_ time. This
> would put them under the FCC censorship guidelines for public
> airwaves.

The rules do not apply for encrypted subscription OTA services.

With improved tuner specs, expect to see more and more "OTA cable"
services, like USDTV offering premium channels in the future.
<http://www.usdtv.com/&gt;
July 27, 2004 3:11:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Jeff Rife" <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b6f3c72cd1506cb98974f@news.nabs.net...
> ivan (Ivan'H'older@yahoo.co.uk) wrote in alt.video.digital-tv:
> > Can't say as I do, however, as Bob has already pointed out, it amounts
to
> > little more than subliminal advertising, which I was under the
impression
> > was outlawed here (in the UK) in the 1960s.
>
> The US has no such law, and I'd be surprised if the UK had a law that
> actually prevents subliminal images/sounds. They might have *tried* to
> write such a law, but it probably won't be written well enough to really
> stop anything.
>

I found this reference on the net..

"In Australia and Britain, the use of subliminal advertising has been banned
with severe consequences for those who disobey the strict laws. The Federal
Communications Commission (FCC) in the United States will now revoke a
company's broadcast license if the use of subliminal messages is proven.
Subliminal message usage has also been banned for all members of The
National Association of Broadcasters."



> --
> Jeff Rife |
> SPAM bait: | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Dilbert/LoveRanking.jpg
> AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
> uce@ftc.gov |
Anonymous
July 27, 2004 6:17:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

ivan wrote:
> "Stephen Neal" <stephen.neal@nospam.please.as-directed.com> wrote in
> message news:ce2mlm$sac$1$830fa17d@news.demon.co.uk...
>> ivan wrote:
>>> "Matthew L. Martin" <nothere@notnow.never> wrote in message
>>> news:10g8cope1at8kc9@corp.supernews.com...
>>>> manitou910 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bob Miller wrote:
>>>>>
[snip]

>>> I read in yesterday's (London) Times newspaper, that because
>>> advertisers know that increasing numbers of people are rapidly
>>> skiping through adverts with PVRs, they have now come up with a
>>> system that can impinge a message on the viewers brain, even when
>>> the PVR is being scanned at 30 times normal speed!
>>>
>>
>> Anyone remember the "Blipverts" from Max Headroom?
>>
>
>> S
> Can't say as I do, however, as Bob has already pointed out, it
> amounts to little more than subliminal advertising, which I was under
> the impression was outlawed here (in the UK) in the 1960s.

I'm not sure that this is subluminal advertising though - this is something
a bit different?

Subliminal advertising, AIUI, embeds images either through flash-frames or
other means, so that you don't see a message during "normal viewing" - but
subconsciously you do. In this case I think the advertisers are working on
methods that will allow an advert to work when viewed at normal AND
high-speed (i.e. watching every 6th or 12th field/frame). This is different
isn't it? If you did something interesting with on-screen graphics, that
slowly revealed when watched in real-time, and thus appeared to reveal more
quickly in shuttle, then the ad might still work in fast-forward, to some
degree?

Won't work on my Tivo or PC based PVR though - that allows jumping forward
in 30" or 15" lumps...

Steve

>
> teve
Anonymous
July 28, 2004 7:51:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:

> Not close to COFDM as the two Senior Engineers admitted during the
> testing. When asked about the possibility and time schedule for a
> compatible 8-SVB receiver that could do mobile/portable they expressed
> serious doubt about any possible time frame.
>

I will bet you $1 that this receiver will work portable in most
places where there is a gigantic signal, quite well. Mobile,
I agree, it probably will not be useably reliable in cities.

But no one has ever expected mobile in the US to use VSB. Whether
E-VSB will work mobile is a big question. But TRUE useful
area coverage mobile in the US ... NOT just in a few big cities ...
will in any case have to wait for the turn-off of NTSC.

Doug
Anonymous
July 29, 2004 5:20:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Doug McDonald wrote:
> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> Not close to COFDM as the two Senior Engineers admitted during the
>> testing. When asked about the possibility and time schedule for a
>> compatible 8-SVB receiver that could do mobile/portable they expressed
>> serious doubt about any possible time frame.
>>
>
> I will bet you $1 that this receiver will work portable in most
> places where there is a gigantic signal, quite well. Mobile,
> I agree, it probably will not be useably reliable in cities.
>
> But no one has ever expected mobile in the US to use VSB. Whether
> E-VSB will work mobile is a big question. But TRUE useful
> area coverage mobile in the US ... NOT just in a few big cities ...
> will in any case have to wait for the turn-off of NTSC.
>
> Doug
>

If you mean by portable being able to take a receiver to a location and
then position it fixed, yes. If you mean walking with a portable
receiver that will work reliably during the walk, I don't think so from
what I saw.

The turn off of selective channels NTSC is all that is needed for mobile
now.
!