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Everybody here comes the new GTX 260!!!

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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September 9, 2008 7:48:41 PM

http://66.196.80.202/babelfish/translate_url_content?.i...

i dont think there is anything to get excited about but its faster(slightly) but still dont know how much its going to cost in retail.

More about : gtx 260

a b U Graphics card
September 9, 2008 8:02:26 PM

Nice find, thanks. Nvidia needs to stop half-assing their "new" products. the GTX 200 series was an ultimate failure (at the high end, not price/performance) They should be focussing on reclaiming the top spot.
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a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 1:08:33 AM

Wow... nVidia really knows how to come up with really confusing products, lol.

How the hell the avg consumer will know that one is the "new" and the other is the "old"? lol

On the review of that card, i missed STALKER... It would've been fair to use it and show how it handles against DX10.1 HW :p 

Esop!
September 10, 2008 1:24:19 AM

well AVG consumers cant tell anything about nvidia's new product but they can tell products like AVG 7.5 FREE edition to the new AVG 8 FREE edition!LOL

no but i guess people who buy expensive card will obviously do a lot of research on the internet or ask forums before shelling out such big cheque!

we will live i guess!:p 
September 10, 2008 1:25:37 AM

The Nvidia renaming/rebranding/revivison machine never stops working. /yawnfest
September 10, 2008 1:30:42 AM

really puts them to shame, lol meh I think Quad sli will last me till January where I can switch over to who is reigning champion:) 
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 1:31:06 AM

I'm saying mostly for people buying built computers. That kind of people asks little no none about the specs i'd say :p 

Esop!
September 10, 2008 1:41:45 AM

Yuka said:
Wow... nVidia really knows how to come up with really confusing products, lol.

How the hell the avg consumer will know that one is the "new" and the other is the "old"? lol

On the review of that card, i missed STALKER... It would've been fair to use it and show how it handles against DX10.1 HW :p 

Esop!


I'm really surprised if you guys haven't figured it out yet. That's the whole point of the confusing naming scheme, get the word out that a new faster card is out, people with little knowledge will flock to it and end up buying the old one in confusion, helping to move all the old stock.

I wouldn't be one bit surprised that they moved hundreds if not thousands of 8800GTS that way after the 8800GTS 512 was released.
September 10, 2008 1:43:41 AM

Exactly:)  Its all business, in the confusion, its a win win for them. If the people grab the new 1, CHing ching, if they buy the old one, ching ching and good bye old Cr*p:D 
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 2:41:45 AM

Look for a slight reduction in 4870s pricing. What Ill find interesting is, they cant really go too far with this card, as itll impinge on the G280, say with a G260XXXFTW216SPHOPETHISONEWORKS edition. Stupid move
September 10, 2008 3:03:51 AM

Stupid mood for you cuz you actually read, research and review. The "norms" look at the picture on the box, what Their friends/Acquaintances say (even the employees at the store):D .

So we'll see if it is a stupid move or not:D 
September 10, 2008 3:11:20 AM

He's not talking about sales though, he's talking about the price point where this'll be sold on. And I agree with jaydee (a lot recently...), the GTX 260 can't really drop in price any more, and let's not even mention the GTX 280, with the GTX 260 retailing at $270-280 and the GTX 280 at $400, there is very little wiggle room for this card.

From the results it doesn't look like anything that makes it a must-buy, it's the same old card with a +5% boost
September 10, 2008 3:13:57 AM

on average yes, but new drivers might show some improvements (maybe)
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 3:30:29 AM

Theres not enough hardware to back up alot more improvement here. Most youll see , I suspect is 8%. Now, that doesnt mean that drivers as a whole may not make improvements on virtually newer cards, and nVidia could even hold back those improvements on the plain jane 260, and leave the goodies for the Letstrythisagain260. Itll be interesting to see how thats done, cause if they do, its a easy driver fix to correct it. But thats hype. Anyways, to me its just not a good idea. Its stretching a product that underperformed vs the competition, and nothing more, that leaxes very little wriggle room between it and its bog bro, which again is a bad move. When I bought my 1900xt512mb, I did simply because it was so close to the xtx the extra money wasnt worth it. So, if the sales of G280s are bad, they could cripple them just to be able to sell em as the G260onemoretime edition
September 10, 2008 3:41:50 AM

You REALLY are an optimist l1qu1d. I obviously can't predict the market, but if they were any smarter (which apparently they seem not to be), they'd be selling those new G260s with very fast clocks instead of the same standard ones that don't show much of an improvement. Then again I don't think their yields are good enough for them to be taking those kind of luxuries.

I am usually excited to see what the newer releases from either company are about, but this card generated zero hype in me, probably because I knew how it was going to pan out before it was even thought of.

I honestly see nvidia as a REALLY bad gambler that doesn't know when to call it quits, they got ahead of ati by far with the GF8 and Rinse-&-Repeat GF9 spawns, got cocky, but lost this time around to Ati. There are times when you just have to stop trying, regroup, and come up with a new strategy... This is one of those times, consider the GT200 chip a decent performer, but not up to snuff against what the competition has in store (Kinda like G80 vs R600), go back to the drawing board and come back with a better card on next generation.
September 10, 2008 3:49:40 AM

I really liked how NV rebadged the 88's and called them 98's ... confusing the customers and bascally tricking people into thinking they were getting "newer" technology ... then clearly they were not.

This smacks of the GTS confusion with the 88's ...

Had to check and see how much ram was on the board to make sure you were not getting an older GPU ...

a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 3:55:40 AM

Isnt this also to come in at 50$ more? For 4 to 8% improvements? Higher power usage? Either louder or hotter? Like I said, bad move
September 10, 2008 3:56:37 AM

emp said:
You REALLY are an optimist l1qu1d. I obviously can't predict the market, but if they were any smarter (which apparently they seem not to be), they'd be selling those new G260s with very fast clocks instead of the same standard ones that don't show much of an improvement. Then again I don't think their yields are good enough for them to be taking those kind of luxuries.

I am usually excited to see what the newer releases from either company are about, but this card generated zero hype in me, probably because I knew how it was going to pan out before it was even thought of.

I honestly see nvidia as a REALLY bad gambler that doesn't know when to call it quits, they got ahead of ati by far with the GF8 and Rinse-&-Repeat GF9 spawns, got cocky, but lost this time around to Ati. There are times when you just have to stop trying, regroup, and come up with a new strategy... This is one of those times, consider the GT200 chip a decent performer, but not up to snuff against what the competition has in store (Kinda like G80 vs R600), go back to the drawing board and come back with a better card on next generation.


It's not really optimism, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I try to see the good, and expose the bad most of the time, but previews are always different from final results (remember the 4870 results? 2-3 times faster than a GX2). So for all we kno the real results might be better, equal, and knowing nvidia, it might even be worse than the original if Nvidia screws it up:) .

I will prob be excited when we see a card that can double the 280 GTX or more than double with out using dual GPUs.

And I'll be even more excited when Scaling in both sli and CF will be 80% (drool*).

As for this article, i'm just trying to point out the good with the bad.

:) 
September 10, 2008 4:07:39 AM

This is nothing but a lazy trend for Nvidia, which started with the 512mb 8800GTS/9800GTX. ATI putting out such a good performer for a good price and the questionable failure of the GTX series is the first stage of results from Nvidia's lazyness since the launch of the 8800GTX/GTS. Theyve literally done NOTHING but rename and rebrand the 8800 series close to a dozen times, with every single card having similar performance to one or the other, all having different prices in one time or another, ALL questionable buys. I remember early reviews on Newegg when the 9600GT first came out, people droped their 8800GT's and ran after them, tools.

8800GTS, 8800GTX, 8800 Ultra, 8800GTS 512, 8800GT, 9800GTX, 9800GTX+, 9800GT. Thats 8, EIGHT cards right there that came out within a 2 year span that are basically all the same thing, with a few % of performance here and there with the 8800GTS at the low end. You could even throw the 9600GT in there since I believe its about on par with the 8800GTS. And even the 9800GX2 since its just a squash card to get rid of stock.
September 10, 2008 4:08:01 AM

Thing is there isn't much good... Sure it's 5% faster (that's the good), but at what cost. As jaydee said, expect to pay a $50 premium for this thing and I don't see the original GTX 260 dropping in pricing to make room for this thing either, they just can't afford to play price war with Ati right now.

I'll point out a few 'good' things about this card though, most likely it won't run any hotter or louder than a GTX 260, and the power consumption won't be drastically increased, a few watts at most, don't expect this to make a real negative impact on how this card will be seen.
September 10, 2008 4:08:26 AM

Wasn't that supposed to be a 55nm refresh? The article still says its 65nm, what's wrong with NV?
September 10, 2008 4:13:38 AM

emp said:
Thing is there isn't much good... Sure it's 5% faster (that's the good), but at what cost. As jaydee said, expect to pay a $50 premium for this thing and I don't see the original GTX 260 dropping in pricing to make room for this thing either, they just can't afford to play price war with Ati right now.

I'll point out a few 'good' things about this card though, most likely it won't run any hotter or louder than a GTX 260, and the power consumption won't be drastically increased, a few watts at most, don't expect this to make a real negative impact on how this card will be seen.


Good point, considering Nvidia posted its first quarterly loss in ages a few weeks(months?) ago. That might be blamed on production cost of the GTX cards, but regardless...
September 10, 2008 4:23:46 AM

The thing is that from what I hear their yields aren't really stellar and to top it off the chips cost a fortune to make due to their insane size. In the meantime Ati is living the good life with apparently great yields on rather inexpensive chips to produce (compared to nvidia).

I believe at this point that nvidia wasn't so much trying to make a killing off GTX series by placing them at $450 & $650 originally, but instead they just wanted to make approximately as much as what they were making with the 8800GTS 640 and 8800GTX on release, just that production costs "forced" them to increase their prices to keep the revenue flowing at desired levels.

I would love to see the cost per GT200 chip, I read somewhere (The inquirer most likely, so I'm not really putting much faith in it) that the cost was around $150-170 per chip.
September 10, 2008 4:27:49 AM

$150-$170 a chip? Thats not even counting the price of the PCB, memory, heatsink/fan assembly, and the actual construction of the card? If so, we are talking about maybe $200 a card? Why the hell even bother making/selling it if profits margins are that close?
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 4:31:29 AM

Its running on an old process, wont come in at or very near the 260s price point. Adds to the confusing monstocity nVidia has created by simply making another card out of an old card. It spanks of arrogance, meaning that they have to have a faster card, no matter what the cost. It wont address the 4870x2 as being the fastest card. Doesnt address the 4850x2 at all. I see too many negatives in this card to make any difference. IF its priced right, like the exact same as the 4870 currently is, then itll be a good buy, otherwise for me, its goodbye
September 10, 2008 4:33:41 AM

But even at the same price of the 4870, there are other factors. Is that extra 5% (arguable) performance increase worth the loss of AA performance, and a tad bit more power consuption? Besides, I think it was you jaydee that earlier said all ATI would do is just drop the price on the 4870 again and it would be back to square 1 for Nvidia.
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 4:34:38 AM

spathotan said:
Good point, considering Nvidia posted its first quarterly loss in ages a few weeks(months?) ago. That might be blamed on production cost of the GTX cards, but regardless...


I'll take that flamebait, thanks XD

That loss would be also defective chips, luckluster marketing (lead to smaller sales) and yeah, GTX series production costs.

ATi really struck hard this time to nVidia with it's fierce price/perf ratios.

On the topic: I don't think the GTX260 is a bad product at all, it just is overpriced due to it's production costs. This refresh is a good thing for the card, they can add things and (prolly) make a better product for the consumer (thanks to ATi, though, lol). On the performance "to see" thing, i really doubt this board has many improvements over the original 260 hardware wise. A few more SPs, TMUs and TAUs won't change the way the drivers are writen to the GTX series since the GPU is still the same arch with the same instruction set.

Anyway, if they can sell it in the 4870 price range, it'll challenge hard the 4870 on mid-stream if ATi doesn't drop prices. Now, like JDJ said, it won't happen and nVidia is slacking big time. Maybe some heads will roll some time soon ._.

Esop!
September 10, 2008 4:36:27 AM

As I said, I must have read that from a dubious source, otherwise you'd see me quoting it left and right. (That's not to say it's not too far from the truth) Remember these cards were originally retailing for $450 and $650, they were 'forced' to drop in price by Ati's offerings, not by free will. More evidence of this is that Gainward jumped ship (I know they didn't drop their nvidia lineup, but still...) and decided to start making Ati cards.

At times for a company it is more important to at least try to keep their 'prestige' for the brand name to be seen in high regards than to save some money. Remember that nvidia has become in the minds of many simply superior than Ati thanks to the events that transpired in the past 2 years. They could be losing money, but attempting to save their reputation, just check at how many people come every day thinking about buying the inferior GTX 260 and 280s over the ati cards.

My theory in the paragraph above also would seem to explain the reasoning behind the latest move with this card. And while I do agree with these marketing tactics to try and preserve your brand, I much rather have nvidia keep making whatever they got right now, come up with something else and release it ONLY if they're sure they can beat the competition, otherwise you're not making much favors for your brand's prestige in the long run.

EDIT @ Spathotan and Jaydee: Even though we talk about the superior AA performance a lot on the HD 4ks, something that has to be reminded to everyone every now and then is that Ati also offers a better quality AA, and for nvidia to match this quality the cards take even a bigger toll.
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 4:40:29 AM

I posted the coming of the 4670 thread awhile back, saying its the final smackdown. Connect the dots. nVidias plans were to hype the G200s at incredible price points, and milk the G80/90 til the next arch at mid to low end. Thas where the real monies are made, not on performance/high end. They cant shrink the G200 to mid to low, theyve lost the high end, performance is their only chance, and they come up with this? OK, if like I said itas priced right, itll do OK, otherwise itll only be seen as just more of nVidias cavalier attitude towards its competition and its customers.
September 10, 2008 4:45:59 AM

so from the second link i posted it looks like they are droping the 55nm refresh on the GTX280 and skip to GT212 or whatever that is?unless there are improved architecture for it other wise we might see 20 times bigger then Nehalem and it draws kilowatt.

sigh.....just wish nvidia did a bit more work then lay back and have a "sex on the beach"!LOL
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 4:46:02 AM

emp said:
I much rather have nvidia keep making whatever they got right now, come up with something else and release it ONLY if they're sure they can beat the competition, otherwise you're not making much favors for your brand's prestige in the long run.


In all fairness, ATi kinda did the same with the 2K and 3K series... They weren't even close to the 8800s and G9800s, so nVidia has to come up with "mediocre" products on the meantime so they can have income. They have to gather up and think for a little. ATi putting pressure is a good think for them IMO, lol. nVidia is a good player in this market, and we have to wait and see.

Now, i won't buy their cards anyway, since i want a thing they don't handle very well: costless accelerated video playback :p 

Esop!
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 4:51:14 AM

Now that I remember, maybe this "new" card is aimed to fight the 4870 1GB segment. I mean, that card is going to be a lil' more expensive with an almost same 5% increase at mid-res (the target niche IMO).

I'd have to see the prices and talk about it later on, lol.

Esop!
September 10, 2008 4:52:53 AM

Yes ati did a very similar thing with their 'broken' R600, but they "fixed" most of what was wrong with the RV670, which is what nvidia is not doing. Instead of releasing more GT 200 products, they need to stop trying to win a lost battle, go back to the drawing board, try to ride this storm, and hopefully (for them) come winning on the next round, but apparently they are unable to stand still.

What I'm trying to say is that at times it's better to take a few punches while trying to come up with a new game plan than just keep swinging poorly and aimlessly at whatever moves. Doesn't make you look like a smart fighter, makes you look like a chump.

EDIT @ Yuka: Undoubtedly this card will sell, to the same people that would buy fecal matter with an nvidia branded heatsink strapped to it, just like how the R600 sold even though it was pretty much a failure since launch.
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 5:01:50 AM

OT, but speaking of the 4670 look here http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Powercolor/HD_4670/ http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/amd_ati_radeon_4670... http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=15393 Mow, back on topic. The links are important in that, like Ive said, its very important nVidia gives this new card a decent chance in the marketplace. Thier name will only carry them so far. As ATI starts cranking these new 46xxs out, itll run cheaper, cost less, have more features etc, and once again, nVidia will pay hell to compete. That being said, in order for nVidia to have a decent brand to come out of all of this with, to me, this would be the perfect vehicle to do so. I doubt itd happen, but one can dream
September 10, 2008 5:07:57 AM

Oh boy now that you show those... Things aren't looking up for nvidia. They REALLY can't afford to lose hold of the last bastion, the sub $130 segment. I don't recall seeing a scenario like this, where one manufacturer would actually gain control over the whole market. They REALLY need to hang on tight to this, because this is actually making a lot of money for them right now.

EDIT: Adding to this... I just skimmed over some stuff and read about an upcoming HD 4750...



More info here: http://www.madshrimps.be/vbulletin/f22/ati-radeon-hd-47...
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 5:16:45 AM

emp said:
Oh boy now that you show those... Things aren't looking up for nvidia. They REALLY can't afford to lose hold of the last bastion, the sub $130 segment. I don't recall seeing a scenario like this, where one manufacturer would actually gain control over the whole market. They REALLY need to hang on tight to this, because this is actually making a lot of money for them right now.


Well, it actually depends on the big sales... I mean, Dell for instance buys a lot of 8500s and 9500s from nVidia to their OEM PCs and Notebooks, wich are the strong points on their strategy (so far at least). If ATi can take away those players from nVidia, then it would be a woopass to the green company and they'll prolly see red numbers (and a red logo in their nightmares? lol) for a long time...

This turn over in the market though, is not a minor thing, i won't argue that, but like i said, it's one out of many for nVidia.

Esop!
September 10, 2008 5:22:08 AM

well nvidia got until the christmas sale to bring something new and bad ass tot he table otherwise champagne will be splashing at AMD's factory!
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 5:22:14 AM

They wont be able to compete price wise with those cards, and come nowheres near in performance
September 10, 2008 5:22:53 AM

Oh no, don't worry I'm not talking about doomsday or anything for them yet, they got a ton of money, especially out of those GF8 and GF9s, they will still get money from OEMs and from clueless people. I am talking about how it hurts their image in people's eyes not to have any product out in the market to go head-to-head with your competition.

A few years ago people felt like they would go either way, these days with all the propaganda and reputation that nvidia has built for themselves, people tend to lean towards nvidia, even if it's not the right choice. Just look at a few posts in this forums about clueless people asking for advice on nvidia cards only... I have yet to see the ati counterpart. Marketing is a powerful tool in the eyes of the masses.

I don't doubt that the company will remain fluent for the foreseeable future, even if reporting losses, just that their public image will be hurt in the meantime... A LOT.
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 5:27:33 AM

This has been my point. The G260 is nVidias best chance to compete price/performance wise. It isnt their best card, but a great performing card, that could save alot of face IF priced right. Now, looking at this briefly, this may knock hard on 9600 sales, and its goodbye to the 9500s. OK, this isnt over yet. The LE edition, itll wipe out the 88/98GT. And of course theres the 4850x2 to once again take out the G280 at anything near what the price point of nVidia can do
September 10, 2008 5:27:40 AM

i have said many times before and now someone came along and sing with me that Nvidia have very good marketing and promotion department as they are such success upto a point consumers just literally gets blinded by the flash light.

GREEN(NVIDIA) LIGHT=GO
RED(AMD) LIGHT=NO GO

simple isnt it?isnt that what you do when you are at the light?lol
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 5:30:22 AM

Again, as Ive tried to say, people going around downing DX10.1 as well as nVidia are going to start to see a whiplash effect as the DX10.1 games appear.
September 10, 2008 5:33:51 AM

Haha... yeah I can't believe they haven't used that for their marketing yet...

And I know what you mean Jaydee, but to defend nvidia a little here, I understand why nvidia can't really put much pressure even with the 260, their already cutting it dangerously close to making their partners lose money on their cards (You don't want your buddies jumping ship like Gainward did because you want to have a pissing contest with AMD), while Ati probably has still room to drop price on their RV770.

That is why I firmly believe that this is a time for nvidia to lay low, they do not want to anger Ati and all of a sudden have $150 HD 4850s and $210-220 HD 4870s. Kind of like what AMD is doing with intel at the moment, laying low without angering them until they got something ready to release (might take a while though... so wait for it...)

EDIT: The only way I see Ati can jumpstart DX10.1 any time soon is if they find a brave enough developer like Valve, who doesn't mind doing things their way, and provide support with DX10.1 programming.
September 10, 2008 5:45:54 AM

i think pretty much its history repeating itself.remember how long the netburst have been bursting and when it strikes back?well the loosing side now still keep on loosing but still. not its amd vs nvdia in the graphics card market.

so maybe really there will need to be Nvidia Core 2(sandwicher) or a the 1st native Dual GPU.
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 5:49:30 AM

iluvgillgill said:
i think pretty much its history repeating itself.remember how long the netburst have been bursting and when it strikes back?well the loosing side now still keep on loosing but still. not its amd vs nvdia in the graphics card market.

so maybe really there will need to be Nvidia Core 2(sandwicher) or a the 1st native Dual GPU.


That'd be a real marketing strategy, lol.

I mean, GPUs are already fully parallel processors :p 

Well, to not go deeper into that, i'll just say that CPUs like long single instructions and GPUs like short and parallelizable (weird word, lol) instructions.

Esop!

EDIT: Spelling xP
a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2008 6:02:16 AM

Cant happen cause of power restraints. OK, I admit, Im a lil over zealous when it comes to the DX10.1 thing, and how it all turned out starting with the change in DX10 to AC and the patch. What Im saying is, its another chink in nVidias armor. I believe yor right, lay low, take your losses, and nail the next release. And hopefully, lighten up on the cavalier attitude when the new arch comes, and hope it performs in the market as expected
September 10, 2008 6:03:40 AM

Hah! Don't expect either of those unless we hear a big retraction from nvidia some time soon, remember they stated multiple times that large, single dies are the future for them, while AMD stated that smaller, scalable (RV770 like) are the future. If you ask me, AMD just pulled a Core 2 on nvidia with the RV770 and unless nvidia shows some innovation on next gen, I see them getting smacked by AMD once again with the RV870.
September 10, 2008 6:12:56 AM

^now that i think i heard it some where before when intel prove amd that 64bit is the way to go!something along those lines.

maybe nvidia is working on something secretly long time ago right after the launch of gt200.but so is AMD's unknown next gen.
!