Religion

Dude you own this forum!! Anyways What religion is Jehovah's witness I havent heard of it.
I'm Hindu BTW

<b><font color=blue>Algebra was easy for the Romans because "X" was always 10 </b></font color=blue>
<font color=red>Jay Kay</font color=red>

they are a set of people like pettytheftsaid with some extremely odd beliefs. they believe that only 118,000 people will go to heaven who are already determined. they go door to door trying to convince you to join their religion. other things, they don't celebrate birthdays, holidays (both religious and nonreligious), and don't believe in blood transfusions.

<i><font color=red>What you need and everything you'll feel is just a question of the deal In the eye of storm just think of the lonely dove the experience of survival is the key to the gravity of love</font color=red></i>

i am not sure if it is 118000 but it is a number around that. party up boys

<i><font color=red>What you need and everything you'll feel is just a question of the deal In the eye of storm just think of the lonely dove the experience of survival is the key to the gravity of love</font color=red></i>

It is 144,000 which is taken from the book of Revelation.

Revelation 7:4-8

(I linked the entire chapter just so you can also see the rest of the context.)


The problem is that passage is refering to the Jewish people that have believed the testemony concerning Jesus Christ. (<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+5&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">See 1st John 5:10-13</A> )

These would be what are referred to as "Mesianic Jews." I had a discussion with a couple of JW's where I asked them if they were Jewish. They said "no". I showed them the tribes who are all of Jewish decent. They didn't have an answer for me.


Salvation is for anyone who calls upon the the Lord to save them.

Romans 10:9-13

(Again, I linked it so you can read the rest of the context.)


As you can see, I voted Christian in this poll. I believe in the Finished work of Jesus Christ and His substitutionary death in my place to pay for my sins. I also believe at He rose again to prove that he defeated sin and death.

Jesus said that He is God. John 10:30

This is some good stuff to read. The religious leaders of that day wanted to kill Him, by stoning, because He claimed to be God. They knew what he was saying. They said in verse 33, The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." There is a lot that Jesus said.

One of major things that sets Christianity, the true Christianity, apart from other beliefs is the fact that Christ himself says that He is the only way of salvation. John 14:6; Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."


Any questions? Comments? He changed my life around 180 degrees and did a 100% overhaul. There are still some rough edges and my sin nature still lives on, but one day He will change that too.






<A HREF="http://www.millionmanlan.com/MMLDefault.asp" target="_new">Million Man LAN 2 is June 25-29, 2003 in Louisville Kentucky... Be there!</A>

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+8&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">Jesus said, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 3:36</A>

Sin is what binds us. The Bible defines sin as missing the mark. Basically, anything that goes against God. Some in men's eyes seem big like murder, adultery, etc. but the motive of why people do things is also in question. Pride, greed, etc. are just as big even though man likes to make it seem trivial.

Sin is a poison of the body, mind, and spirit. The Bible states in Jeremiah 17:9 that... <A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jer+17:9&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1" target="_new">"The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?"</A>




<A HREF="http://www.millionmanlan.com/MMLDefault.asp" target="_new">Million Man LAN 2 is June 25-29, 2003 in Louisville Kentucky... Be there!</A>

i have done a little reading to know that Sidhartha rejected Hinduism and created Buddhism, but what are the differences that you know of between the Hinduism and Buddhism? thanx

<i><font color=red>What you need and everything you'll feel is just a question of the deal In the eye of storm just think of the lonely dove the experience of survival is the key to the gravity of love</font color=red></i>

Why didn't you put a "None" or "Other" option?

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<font color=blue> "Trying is the first step towards failure." </font color=blue>

To be really honest i dont really know the big difference. It was more like Buddha did'nt denounce Hinduism rather Created a new religion where he thought everybody as equals and stuff. Here's some stuff i could collect: If you dont understand anything ....Just ask (there's a lot of stuff you wont get at first)
1. Buddha rejects the Karma Kanda of the Vedas but did not deny the
Jnana Kanda (i.e the Upanishads). This is the view of the Hindu scholars. The
Buddhists probably feel that Buddha rejected the whole of the Vedas. It is,
however, true that Buddhist theologians would quote from the Upanishads when
they thought that it would strengthen their case. Buddhists have their own
scriptures like Dhammapada.

2.Buddha kept silent about the existence of the Ultimate Reality. To
some Buddhist sects this implies that Buddha does not believe in any Ultimate
Reality. Other Buddhist sects like the Tibetan system thinks that Buddha did
believe in an Ultimate Reality. However, all Buddhist sects reject the concept
of Personal God. Thus some of the Buddhist sects are very close to the Advaita
system of Sri Sankara in that they both believe in Impersonal Reality. Modern
Hindu theologians have interpreted Buddha's silence as to mean that he was
merely saying that the Ultimate Reality can not be expressed in words.

3.Both Hinduism and Buddhism believe in Karma and rebirth. There is,
however, one major difference. Hindus believe that the Atman transmigrates
from one birth to another. Buddhism believes that nothing transmigrates
from one birth to another since there is no such thing as the Atman. In the
Buddhist view the karmas of one individual give birth to another, but the two
individuals are not related. This is a fundamental difference between the two
systems. Radhakrishnan, however, feels that this is not Buddha's position and
that Buddha does accept the Atman doctrine.

4. In Sanatan Dharma, a person who realizes God or Self is freed from
the cycle of Birth and Death and is no longer subjected to the cycle of Karma.
According to the theistic systems of Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhva the liberated
person retains his individuality even in the divine abode. According to Sri
Sankara's Advaita system the liberated person merges in to Brahman. This is
because the Atman is really Brahman and the liberated person has himself
become Brahman. The difference can be understood as follows. You can think of
the liberated person as a candle light while Brahman as the sun. Sri Ramanuja
and Sri Madhva are saying that the candle light while similar to the sun can
never be the sun. It remains a candle light. Sri Sankara is saying that the
liberated individual is like a light which merges in the effulgent glory of
Brahman just as a river merges in the sea. Thus all individuality is lost.
Sri Ramakrishna says that both positions are true and depends on the
wish of the liberated person. If the liberated person is a devotee, he will
not want to become sugar but want to eat sugar. Thus the devotee will retain
his individuality to enjoy God's love. On the other hand, those who are jnani
wants to merge with Brahman. Sri Ramakrishna also makes the point that
although the individuality of the jnani is lost (in agreement with Sri
Sankara) this loss is not annihilation. It is not to be thought of as the
little water drop losing itself into an ocean. Rather, you should think that
the little rain drop has expanded to become the entire ocean. This is his
explanation of what happens to the jnani.
In Buddhism, a person who experiences nirvana is also freed from the
law of Karma. However, after this person dies no new individual comes into
existence thus reducing suffering in the Samsara. The Buddhist position, the
loss of individuality, seems to be similar to Sri Sankara's Advaita system.

5.Buddha considers both the Atman and the world as unreal. (Of course
Radhakrishnan does not accept that this is really Buddha's position. )
Nearly all Hindu sects accept that the Atman is divine and real but
there is difference about the reality of the world. The theistic Hindu systems
feel that the world is real while Sankara's Advaita considers it unreal. Sri
Ramakrishna has a more nuanced position. He considers the world to be real but
explains the Theistic Vedanta and the Advaita position as follows. According
to Sri Ramakrishna, a devotee wants to think of the glories of God and thus
has to keep a separation from God and thus world is naturally real to him. The
Jnani wants to completely merge with God and thus looses all individuality in
Nirvikalpa Samadhi. In that state there is no I and thus no you and thus no
world. However, you can not keep yourself at such a high state and your
consciousness has to come down. Then you see the world again. Thus Sri
Ramakrishna says that the Advaita position is a philosophical position. He
says that there is a higher state than a jnani which he calls Vijnani. A
Vijnani is one who sees (even when he is not in Samadhi) that God has become
the world and then the world seems to be very real to him. Thus in Sri
Ramakrishna's view the Theistic schools and Advaita Vedanta are describing the
experience of persons of different bent of mind. The theistic schools are
describing the experience of the devotees. The Advaita school is describing
the experience of the Jnani. Although they are mutually exclusive they are
both correct.
I discussed the Hindu position to such details for the following
reason. May be, Buddha took the position of Extreme Jnani. He was probably
describing the experience of Nirvana where there is complete loss of
individuality. That is why he may be saying that both the Atman and the world
are unreal (there is no I nor you nor the world in that state). Other wise I
think that the Unreality of the Atman is the most fundamental difference
between Buddha and Sanatan Dharma.

6. Buddha thinks that only monks can achieve nirvana. Hindus believe
that while it is easier for monks to achieve Samadhi, it is possible for
householders can experience Samadhi.





<b><font color=blue>FATAL ERROR! SYSTEM HALTED! - Press any key to do nothing...</b></font color=blue>
<font color=red><b><i>Jay Kay</font color=red></b></i>

out of the whole bunch scientologists are by far the most fVcked up org i can think of. religion my a$$. their only goals are to make money and discredit psychology, because they believe that there way of treating people with mental disorders is the only way to go. also practicing medicine without licenses. they are a very destructive organization, and evil too.

<i><font color=red>What you need and everything you'll feel is just a question of the deal In the eye of storm just think of the lonely dove the experience of survival is the key to the gravity of love</font color=red></i>

Is Jesus Christ the part you can't understand or was it hypocritical people that claim to be Christians that you can't understand?


What questions? Fire away and I will try my best to get you the answers.

<A HREF="http://www.millionmanlan.com/MMLDefault.asp" target="_new">Million Man LAN 2 is June 25-29, 2003 in Louisville Kentucky... Be there!</A>

basically the whole thing, god, jesus, doctrine, the church, the bible. i don't begrudge other people for believing in christianity, however i don't belive in christianity at all. there is no balance. anytime you don't have balance you have problems. there is a lot of intolerance and ignorance that goes along with christianity, not too mention hypocrisy and self-righteousness. i realize that not everybody associated with the church displays these characteristics, but they are quite prevalent. but the biggest reason is because of perception of morality. people who are christians feel it is their right to tell me and the general public what is and is not acceptable in terms of behaviors, enjoyment, so on and so forth. i don't tell other people how to live their lives and i don't appreciate religious organizations attempting to control what goes on in the public. it is not their place to say what is decent and what is not.

<i><font color=red>What you need and everything you'll feel is just a question of the deal In the eye of storm just think of the lonely dove the experience of survival is the key to the gravity of love</font color=red></i>

lol, I'm anything but religious. I haven't been to church in over 9 years!

Hilbert space is a big place.

Islam

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I thought it was they believe when the rapture occurs and god judges everyone that only 144,000 will be deemed "worthy" and go to heaven, while all the rest go to hell... Aren't there some cooks who think that?

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<font color=blue> "Trying is the first step towards failure." </font color=blue>

Are scientologist the same as atheist that don't beleive that a God created the universe and all live? If so I vote for that.

Religion sucks... that is all I want to say.

My dual-PSU PC is so powerfull that the neighbourhood dims when I turn it on

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... and: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

OK... forget that vote and put me as an atheist.

My dual-PSU PC is so powerfull that the neighbourhood dims when I turn it on

"The leader is good, the leader is great, we surrender our will, as of this date." Hmm, I remember that.

I think the Raelians are slightly different. They think that aliens jsut implanted DNA onto Earth that kickstarted evolution I think... Not sure.

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<font color=blue> "Trying is the first step towards failure." </font color=blue>

Don't get me wrong and think that I'm some fvcked up weirdo who follows a freaky cult:
I do believe in the possibility that if life ever existed on Mars it may be similar (u know how all life on earth shares a specific sequence in its dna?) to that on earth b/c it's possible that rocks from Mars have landed on Earth and vice versa, possibly "polluting" on of the planets. Would be really cool if they found remnants of life on Mars tho that was in no way related to us...would provide a totally new vantage point....

Hilbert space is a big place.

If you see something like a comet as an alien then they may actually be right.

My dual-PSU PC is so powerfull that the neighbourhood dims when I turn it on

"basically the whole thing, god, jesus, doctrine, the church, the bible."

That is one big nut to crack in a forum but it isn't too hard to go over.

Genesis 1:1 "in the beginning God."

That is the basis for everything. God made everything and thus He is in charge. It is kind of like if you make something out of Play-Dough. It does what you tell it. End of story. God did something better, He allowed the dust of the ground that he fashioned into a man to have a free will. A will that could choose to love Him and have a relationship with Him.

Another aspect of the word God fron Gen. 1:1 is that it is the word <A HREF="http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv" target="_new">Elohiym</A>. It means Creator, but is a plural word. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit = Creator. It is amazing how He put the Bible together. From the beginning all three were present.

The Trinity in itself is not the easiest thing to comprehend. It is hard for things that only know four dimensions to comprehend more than four. (H, W, D, Time) I had it explained using geometry once. Take a piece of paper as a plane. It only has two dimensions. So if you were on that page of paper and encountered someone who punched three of their fingers through the page you would only comprehend the perimeter of three circles. You could not comprehend that all three were attached to a hand. We are limited sometimes in our reasoning because of experiential wants.

"I have never seen the wind but I have seen the effects of the wind." - Billy Graham

So there is an attempt to put some things into perspective.

The word Doctrine basically means "healthful teaching."
Greek and Hebrew are dynamic languages. Basically the easiest thing is to ask God to help you read it and He does. It isn't hard to read. Otherwise, there are a lot of resources to help people read more into the Bible. Commentaries, Study Bible, etc.



"there is no balance. anytime you don't have balance you have problems."

I don't get where you are coming from exactly. Do you mean Ying-Yang, Good vs. Evil, etc. ??? If so we can come back to that.



"there is a lot of intolerance and ignorance that goes along with christianity, not too mention hypocrisy and self-righteousness. i realize that not everybody associated with the church displays these characteristics, but they are quite prevalent."

This is a lot. I'll take it in chunks. I believe in absolute truth. There was a debate that I heard on time and one person was debating the point that everything was relative. Now relativity is a property in Physics, not in logical issues. Even in Physics, something cannot be two things at the same time. Nor can it be the same here. Anyway, the one guy said, "There are no absolute truths." The other guys said, "Are you absolutely certain of that?"

Absolute truth exists. 2 plus 2 equals 4. So if it exists, what truths are there? One thing that some people say about Christians is that they are closed minded.

Let me take a time out just to clarify what a Christian is again. Read the post above. It is someone that acknowledges that 1. God is God, He is in charge and what He says goes. 2. They believe everything that God said about Himself, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. 3. Acknowledge that fact that they have sinned, that they cannot make it to heaven on their own merits, and that they need someone else to pay the price for their sin. 5. Repent, Turn from doing things on their terms and turn to doing things on God's terms. 6. Accept Jesus' gift of His substitution on their behalf.

There are a lot of people who claim to be Christians. Jesus said that the path was narrow. One of the biggest lies the devil ever did was to deceive people into thinking that they got a get out of Hell free card. They say they said a prayer and now they want to live life on their own terms. That is called Antinominalism. Basically the fact that "You can live like the Devil and still go to Heaven." - Bob Froese. Jesus is Lord of all or he isn't Lord at all.

I guess you can get the idea.


Okay, back to tolerance etc. When something is against what the Bible says it is in error, wrong, sin, etc.

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ga+5&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, F19 fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, F20 drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.</A> - Galatians 5:19-21

So if you live in a repeated manner of any one of these, what does it say? "...just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

I on't make the rules. I just follow them. When I came to meet Christ and Him changing my life was the single thing that has every happened and continued to happen to me.

In verses 22-23 of Galatians 5 states what the believer has.

"22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law."


Now who in their right mind wouldn't want those things?


The whole book of Galatians deals with people that act religious but are actually seeking their own interests. There was a group of people that said that it was Jesus Christ plus something else. This is where the term "Legalistic" comes from. They were trying to say that you needed Jesus plus some form of works.

Good works follow after salvation but are not needed for salvation. Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc. (I would encourage you to read the context. It helps with understanding it too.)

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=titus+3§ion=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=eph&NavGo=2&NavCurrentChapter=2" target="_new">5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,</A>

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=eph+2&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.</A>


I agree with you that some people act all pious and religious but they actually are rotten on the inside. In the book of James it states this,

"18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." - James 2:18


Here is a quote from my pastor. "Lips will lie but lives won't." You can say you are anything you want but your life will prove what you believe. That is one of the main topics in the book of James. Again, salvation does not hinge on good works but once you are saved, you will do good works.


There are a lot of people that are self-righteous. God calls that sin. He said this concerning man.

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=eze+33:13&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1" target="_new">13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die.</A> - Ezekiel 33:13

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+3:10&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1" target="_new">10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;</A> - Romans 3:10


I never believed in tolerance. Truthfully everyone is biased and everyone is prejudice of someone or something. That is the truth whether we want to believe it or not. Some people are more than others. Some hide it well and some don't. But the fact remains that people tend toward things that appeal to the way they do everything.

I am a white male. I feel more comfortable around people that are similar to me. When I go to a section of town that is different to me I feel uneasier than if I were in my neighborhood. That is human nature. It is not to say that I hate minority groups, females ,etc. It is just that they are different. Nothing more and nothing less.

Someone once said, "If a homosexual with AIDS walked into church where would you stand?" With my arm around them.

"17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

The religious leaders had a woman brought to Jesus that was caught in adultery. Back then it was punishable by death by stoning.

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+8&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">"10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."</A>


This is what Jesus said about who was condemned and who is not.

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+3&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."</A>


So when the Bible is against something I am too. It is not closed minded. It is having the position of God. I hate the sin, not the sinner. I am a sinner. A sinner saved by grace. Some people somehow forget that. They want to be "holier that thou." The Bible is not a book about the great men and women of God. It is a book about terrible people who have a great God.

There are people who spin the Bible to justify some awful things. Blowing up an abortion clinic is not the answer. There are better ways to handle issues.




"people who are christians feel it is their right to tell me and the general public what is and is not acceptable in terms of behaviors, enjoyment, so on and so forth. i don't tell other people how to live their lives and i don't appreciate religious organizations attempting to control what goes on in the public. it is not their place to say what is decent and what is not."

I know how you feel. I am a happily married man with a beautiful 5 month old daughter. I hate the fact that I pay more in taxes that two people out of wedlock that have a child. That is the reverse side of things. There should be an even playing field for all people under our society. However trying to implement something where all things are fair will most likely not happen.

I don't drink. You can if you want. I know alcoholics and I don't want to be one. A drunk driver killed my best friend. I know of people that were date raped while under the influence of alcohol. I just see what it does to people and I don't want any part of it. Now how does that play into legislation? That is where democracy comes in.

I agree that no one should force his or her views on anyone else. It is happening both from the conservative side of view and on the liberal side of view. There is bias and prejudice on both sides of the fence. In regards to different issues, I can't say much about that. If it is not Biblical I am not for it. If it is I am for it. If it is an amoral issue, I can only be giving an opinion.


Now that I have taken up most of one page here in this thread I will retire from this particular post.




<A HREF="http://www.millionmanlan.com/MMLDefault.asp" target="_new">Million Man LAN 2 is June 25-29, 2003 in Louisville Kentucky... Be there!</A>

"you see the my problem with christianity is there is too much power given to one being, thing, entity, etc. i look at life in terms of good and evil. both exist and are necessary for life to exist. you can not have one without the other. in christianity the form of balance is between God and Satan, the two opposing forces battling for mankind. in a place where only evil exists, good will emerge and vice versa. likewise someone who is all good will by default become evil itself."

Why does there have to be a balance? There does not have to be. You seem to want there to be some form of balance but there is not a NEED of a balance.

We as people have a hard time dealing with someone else in control. Pride is the fact that I think I can do something better than someone else or that someone is rain in on our parade. The devil thought the same thing and God kicked him out of heaven with all of the others that followed him. Hell was not a place built for humans. It was built for the devil and his other fallen angels.

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=2pe+2:4&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1" target="_new">4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;</A> - 2nd Peter 2:4

However when man decided to be god he ended up with the same problem; Sin.

The problem with eating the fruit was not main problem but the WHY they ate it was.

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Genesis+2§ion=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ge&NavGo=2&NavNextChapter=>>&NavCurrentChapter=2" target="_new">1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" 2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' " 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." </A> - Genesis 3:1-5

First the devil made them question God. Second he denied what God said. Lastly he said "...and you will be like God,..."


It was Rebellion.


God made everything perfect for them and they still decided to do the wrong thing. That is what we are. We need a savior, not just from hell like a fire insurance policy but to save us from ourselves.


I have had problems with authority. In some places I need to act out and in others I have no right. A good example is when it comes time to vote or if I need to write a letter to my congressmen. However if it is something that is not my place I am not a liberty to go against it. If I were in the military and went against my commanding officer, what would happen? I would be sent to jail. How is it any different with God? There isn't any difference.




"likewise someone who is all good will by default become evil itself."

That is neither logical or practical.

I doubt that you can, but if at all possible please give me an example of this.




"that is intolerance however. you choose not to accept anything that is or are different from your beliefs. that is the very defination of intolerance. that is why we have so many problems with religion because religious groups are very intolerant of other religious groups which have led to numerous wars, genocides, ethnic cleansing, etc, discrimination so on and so forth."

Do I need to have my daughter play with Charles Manson? If I say no, then I am intolerant. That is the misconception. The word tolerance is such a bad choice of a word to use for the idea you want to portray. If I have the right to choose to, then I choose a position and do not waffle on that choice, I am then intolerant. That is a terrible thing to say about someone but that is what happens.

If the Boy Scouts of America states that they are a boys' club, do they need to allow girls to join their ranks?

Hopefully you see the problem with the tolerance issue. It in and of itself is a broken ideal.


Now if I were a girl and wanted to have a club I would join the Girl Scouts of America and be "tolerant" that the Boy Scouts don't allow me into their organization.


"there is no proof that anything is the bible is anything other than a collection of philisophical writings. that is where faith comes in. you have faith in what you believe in because you believe in the bible."

Actually you would be suprised at the authenticity of the Bible. One of the fastest ways to become a Christian is to try to disprove the Bible. There are a lot of university professors that scholars that are now believers due to their research.


"this is what i really find ironic about christianity; supposedly we are given the "choice" of whether or not to believe in god. if you give someone a choice as to what to believe in you can not fault them if they choose not to believe in what you stand for."

If I give someone the freedom to choose wheather to steal or not and tell them that there is a penalty if they steal, am I wrong for punishing them for stealing?



"finally the last thing that i will make a point on is the lack of independent thought. you believe everything with out questioning it."

That is not true. When did I ever say, or lead you to believe, that I have never used my mind to see that what the Bible claims is true? Like I said earlier, just because I have my choice made does not mean that I am closed-minded.



"any organization that has that as part of its operating procedure is not only dangerous, but in my mind evil as well, because choice is the ultimate freedom that we as humans have. excepting everything blindly is dangerous because when you stop questioning what you are told you have given up the only freedom you really have."

The devil was probably one of the most pro-human/secular humanists ever. The problem with him is that he never seemed to reminded Adam and Eve of the consequences for rebellion.

Sin enslaves. I have the choice of choosing good or evil. When one is in darkness they cannot choose right. They only know wrong. It is like defining the word "Holy." We define it as the absence of sin. We have no other way of defining it because we only know sin. We have to use something that we can relate to to define some that has the absence of something we know. It is kind of like a vacuum. We define it as the absence of something. We don't live in one so we have to define it in the terms of not having something we are familiar with.

I agree with you that accepting something blindly is dangerous. However if you have tested God and He has been faithful, why not take Him at His word?

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1pe+2&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">"if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious."</A> - 2nd Peter 2:3

At that point it is not a leap into the dark but a leap into the light.



As for groups getting political, I don't think that Christian or any other group should become political. That includes Gay rights groups, Pro-Family, Pro-Life or Pro-Choice, etc. However, here in-lies the rub, if anyone blocks thoses groups from speaking their piece then they are intolerant.



<A HREF="http://www.millionmanlan.com/MMLDefault.asp" target="_new">Million Man LAN 2 is June 25-29, 2003 in Louisville Kentucky... Be there!</A>

"balance is the most important aspect of life."

"no one person, entity, thing should hold that much power, it would be very detrimental to life."

Why would it be so bad that someone that loves me/all also has all power, all wisdom, or all etc.?

Now before you say that God must have some form of evil/guile/etc.

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+1&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.</A> 1st John 1:5-7

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+4&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. </A> 1st John 4:7-10


<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mic+6&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?</A> - Micah 6:8

God loves us. He is the source of love. He wants for us to share in His love and to share it with others. Is this such a bad thing?




"so to explain my point, if you have a place where no evil exists, in order for balance to be maintained, evil will evolve."

That does not HAVE to be. Where God is there is the absence of evil. God can't be a part of sin. He sent Jesus to pay the penalty of sin so we could be able to be with God.

There is a great example of this in regards to the Jewish Temple with the Holy of Holies and the veil that covered it. It was where the ark of the covenant was placed and one person, the high priest, went in only once a year to make atonement for himself and the nation of Israel. When Christ died the veil was torn in two. There was no need for a veil because we all now could have access through Jesus.



"how is your life when it is out of balance, chaotic, messy, etc. for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction, balance."

The first part is not a accurate statement. That kind of balance is really when things do not go according to my plans. It is a different meaning.

You keep crossing the eternal with the temporal. I understand Physics. One of my best friends is the Maters and Doctoral Professor of Mechanical Design Theory. If everything followed Physics, we would not be here.

Matter is neither created nor destroyed. Based on what the created world and we as humans can do... this is true. Christ walked on water, healed people, raised people from the dead, made the wind and waves to cease, and fed thousands from a very small amount. Those are not natural and temporal. That is eternal.



That argument that I used regarding what people will choose to do is not a fallacy. I already came to the point that you are here. People are inherently bad in and of themselves. That is known as a sin nature. Or flesh.

Romans Chapter 8 is awesome at explaining this.

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+8&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.</A> - Romans 8:1-9


<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+8&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.</A> - Romans 8:19-23


<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+3&version=nkj&showtools=0" target="_new">. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?</A> - John 3:6-12 (Jesus talking to Nicodemus, one of the Jewish teachers)



It is not a difference of 1 + -1 = 0 but now, temporal, and then, eternal. We are eternal beings. We will spend our time somewhere. Martin Luther said it this way. "There are two important days, this day and that day." He is referring to how do we live here in the day that God has given us here on Earth right now and to that day when we will ever be with God or set apart from Him.

Hell = Separation from God. Since God is Love, what would the absence of Love be. Hell. Take some more of the attributes of God.

<A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=gal+5§ion=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=joh&NavGo=3&NavCurrentChapter=3" target="_new">22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.</A>

Imagine being where there is no Love, or Peace, or Joy, or Goodness... That would be Hell. That is what life away from God is. I have been there and I don't want to go back. I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good.


It is not an issue of does God has a control issue, it is a man wanting control issue. I explained that in an earlier post.

God wants the best for us. He does not want spoiled brats that hate Him and hate everyone else around us. He works with us to shape us so that we can share to others what He has shared with us.(see the fruits of the Spirit again) It is not that God is some cosmic killjoy. <A HREF="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=joy+full§ion=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=flesh+spirit" target="_new">He wants us to live life to the fullest.</A>



Going back to balance, if I am not mistaken, Buddhism states that once you reach nirvana that you are freed from all forms of bad things?

Or...

<A HREF="http://www.book.nu/0451200772" target="_new">"from the eternal round of decay, suffering, and death." - E.A. Burtt "Teachings of the Compassionate Buddha" page 29.</A>

Or...

<A HREF="http://js-catalog.cpl.org:60100/MARION?T=GAUTAMA+THE+BUDDHA+AN+ESSAY+IN+RELIGIOUS+UNDERSTANDING" target="_new">"This is to know nirvana, to have achieved detachment and thereby liberation. Herein is "Nothingness" experienced awareness that true Reality is empty of grasping, supportive selfhood. The religious life has been lived, the way out of the human dilemma [reincarnation] has been found and followed, from this point onward human life on Earth is presumed to be lived in a new dimension of Reality." - Richard H. Drummond "Gautama the Buddha" page 92.</A>

Would that not mean that evil will then not exist? Where is the balance there? Based on what Buddhism teaches there is balance here but none later once you are enlightened.


Say Buddhism were the way, even though Jesus said that He "...is the way the truth and the life..." in John 14:6, but say that it was...

What a sad existence. No relationships, nothing to share, nada! That is nirvana... a vacuum. That sounds like the definition of hell to me. In the biblical hell there is no dying and no decay, but Jesus said that there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. That is one bad place to be




<A HREF="http://www.millionmanlan.com/MMLDefault.asp" target="_new">Million Man LAN 2 is June 25-29, 2003 in Louisville Kentucky... Be there!</A>

I think the notion of balance in the universe is an interesting one. Originally, everything in the earth was perfectly ablanced, as you would put it. Everything ran so well, as God designed, that there was harmony between every living creature. The end of this harmony is when mankind broke faith with God and sinned. I don't think that God gave Adam and Eve a set of rules to trap them. He gave them rules that were for their own good. Something fundamental in Man's nature changed when they sinned...greed, ambition, murder, pride,...all the things that came out of pandora's box entered into man's heart that day. God gave people a way out of the cycle of death. God is not saying, it's my way or the highway (hell). Man already chose which path he would take with that first sin. We subsequently reaffirm that choice when we sin. God offers the way out. That's what christians really believe. If you know really devout christians who practice what they preach, you'll find them to be some of the humblest, kindest people on Earth. They are not proud that "they are chistians and you aren't". They realize how fortunate they are to have a forgiving God. THe reason they want to tell you about it...sometimes constantly...is because people tend to become like the people they follow/worship. If a christian is really following God, they start to follow the teachings of compassion that Jesus taught. In short, they want to help people know the good thing that they've found, too.
Sure, there are bad people that call themselves christians. They are the ones that usually get the media spoltlite (Al Sharpton, the crazies that say "God hates Fags" ). You'll find imposters in all walks of lifes, professions, religions. However the real believers are real gems, and good friends to have....


Any man can withstand adversity...The true test of character is to give a man power <i>Abraham Lincoln</i>

I know what you mean...These kind of questions are at the heart of how we percieve and act in the world. Change like that usually doesn't happen overnight or from a debate...I just hope I clarified what a Christian really should be. I hope you find whatever it is your looking for...

Any man can withstand adversity...The true test of character is to give a man power <i>Abraham Lincoln</i>

i am looking for inner peace and happiness and balance in life. it is something i am always working on. i know that christianity by default is associated with all of these self-righteous a$$munches and is not reflective of what christianity is all about. having said that the only thing that really matters is that you have faith in what you believe in.

<i><font color=red>What you need and everything you'll feel is just a question of the deal In the eye of storm just think of the lonely dove the experience of survival is the key to the gravity of love</font color=red></i>