Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

BBC World TV + CBC Newsworld + RDI : when will they go to ..

Last response: in Home Theatre
Share
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 1:56:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

BBC World TV + CBC Newsworld + RDI : when will they go to HDTV?
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 3:49:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Stephen Neal (stephen.neal@nospam.please.as-directed.com) wrote in alt.video.digital-tv:
> Very tedious for the many viewers in the UK with 16:9 TVs and digital
> receivers capable of receiving 16:9 FHA broadcasts (Most of the domestic
> production,plus quite a few imports, on the main 5 networks in the UK, plus
> some of the Sky Pay TV services is in 16:9 FHA SDTV) - but we are stuck with
> 14:9 letterbox in a 4:3 frame for most UKTV stuff.

That's starting to be a problem with the shows as they filter over to BBA
America. I don't know of a TV in the US that has a zoom for 14:9, so we
either chop off the extra or just watch with bars on all sides.

--
Jeff Rife | "She just dropped by to remind me that my life
SPAM bait: | is an endless purgatory, interrupted by profound
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov | moments of misery."
spam@ftc.gov | -- Richard Karinsky, "Caroline in the City"
Anonymous
October 30, 2004 12:49:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Stephen Neal wrote:
>
>>Also, I'm aware that when "Frasier" switched to widescreen HDTV for its
>>final two seasons, it was shown in the UK only in the 4x3 aspect ratio.
>
> Yep - though having seen the 16:9 versions I see we didn't miss much... It
> did look like it was very much shot for 4:3 centre-cut-out rather than
> letterbox display, with the widescreen edges completely redundant. The OC
> has also been running in 4:3 over here - though it is originated widescreen
> and being shown on Channel Four which shows a lot of stuff in 16:9 FHA on
> its digital outlets. When this was raised with Channel Four (who also show
> Frasier) it was blamed on the lack of an acceptable quality 625 16:9 master
> from the distributors - maybe they were only offering decent 60i->24p->50i
> DEFT conversions on the 4:3 version, with 16:9 versions being converted
> straight 60i->50i. (This was the case with the 625 16:9 versions of the
> first series of 24 shown in the UK - widescreen but covered in standards
> conversion 3:2 pulldown artefacts- really horrid to watch compared to a
> decent 3:2 pulldown removed DEFT conversion)

I'm aware the first season of "The O.C." was displayed by FOX in 480p.
FOX reportedly is switching to 720p for its major dramas this season.

However, the masters for the last two seasons of "Frasier" definitely
were 1080i, from 3-perf Super-35 film shot at 24fps, which should easily
downconvert to widescreen PAL.

The final season of "Frasier" looked more obviously 'protected' for 4x3
than did S10.

Forthcoming DVDs of "The O.C." S1 and "Frasier" S11 will be 4x3.






C.
Related resources
Anonymous
October 30, 2004 5:21:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Jeff Rife" <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1beadefe8ae059e39898b1@news.nabs.net...
> Stephen Neal (stephen.neal@nospam.please.as-directed.com) wrote in
> alt.video.digital-tv:
>> Very tedious for the many viewers in the UK with 16:9 TVs and digital
>> receivers capable of receiving 16:9 FHA broadcasts (Most of the domestic
>> production,plus quite a few imports, on the main 5 networks in the UK,
>> plus
>> some of the Sky Pay TV services is in 16:9 FHA SDTV) - but we are stuck
>> with
>> 14:9 letterbox in a 4:3 frame for most UKTV stuff.
>
> That's starting to be a problem with the shows as they filter over to BBA
> America. I don't know of a TV in the US that has a zoom for 14:9, so we
> either chop off the extra or just watch with bars on all sides.

Interesting - both Philips and Sony sets sold in the UK often offer both
16:9 and 14:9 zoom modes for 16:9 and 14:9 letterboxed material
respectively. 14:9 is at least a bit sharper when zoomed than 16:9 - though
neither a patch on 16:9 FHA stuff viewed natively.

Steve
Anonymous
October 30, 2004 4:22:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"manitou910" <manitou910@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:U_GdncGm0uYveB_cRVn-sA@rogers.com...
[snip]
> I'm aware the first season of "The O.C." was displayed by FOX in 480p. FOX
> reportedly is switching to 720p for its major dramas this season.
>

Well 480p stuff should be relatively easily converted to 480/60i 3:2 which
again is easily converted to 576/50i 2:2 using DEFT techniques (looking for
the redundant 3rd field in the 3:2 pulldown sequence to create a 480/48i
sequence, scaling this to 576/48i and recording this onto modified 576/50i
VTRs that will run at 48i for recording purposes) The other option,
depending on the post-production route, is to just play out a 50i version
from your non-linear editor if it is edited 24p. (Quantel support 24p
editing, allowing real-time playout at either 480/60i adding 3:2 on the fly,
or real-time playout at 576/50i playing out a little faster. They recommend
telecineing 24p film material in the SD domain at 576p to keep the
resolution up)

However I suspect that DEFT conversions (which are more expensive) are used
only for the 4:3 576/50i transfers which are required globally - whereas the
16:9 576/50i stuff is required by only a few territories at the moment (UK
and Aus, though some other European countries might also be interested they
mayalso need foreign language dubs as well?)

Channel Four - like most other broadcasters - will prioritise standards
conversion quality over aspect ratio - so will always chose the higher
quality transfer. In fact they stipulate DEFT-style clean transfers in
their programme acquisition guidelines I think.

> However, the masters for the last two seasons of "Frasier" definitely were
> 1080i, from 3-perf Super-35 film shot at 24fps, which should easily
> downconvert to widescreen PAL.

Yep - again it is a case of the costs I guess. Doing a 1080i/24p to 576/50i
conversion using 2:2 pull-down and speed-up requires some effort I guess -
do 1080/24p VTRs allow replay at 25p - allowing a straight 1080/25p 16:9 to
576/50i 16:9 downconversion ? I'd hope so - though the audio must be fun. I
suspect that at the moment a single 4:3 576/50i transfer from either the
16:9 1080/24p source, or worse a 4:3 480/60i 3:2 downconversion, is made.
(At least the 480/60i 3:2 can be un-3:2ed to 576/48i using DEFT stuff
though!)

>
> The final season of "Frasier" looked more obviously 'protected' for 4x3
> than did S10.

Yep - I didn't feel I was missing much in 4:3 - though it would have been
nice to have pictures where my black pillar-box bars were.

>
> Forthcoming DVDs of "The O.C." S1 and "Frasier" S11 will be 4x3.

That is a real shame - what a let down. The OC S1 is out already in the
UK - I'll check and see what AR it is next time I'm in a DVD section in
town.

Steve
Anonymous
October 30, 2004 4:22:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Stephen Neal wrote:
>
>>I'm aware the first season of "The O.C." was displayed by FOX in 480p. FOX
>>reportedly is switching to 720p for its major dramas this season.
>
> Well 480p stuff should be relatively easily converted to 480/60i 3:2 which
> again is easily converted to 576/50i 2:2 using DEFT techniques (looking for
> the redundant 3rd field in the 3:2 pulldown sequence to create a 480/48i
> sequence, scaling this to 576/48i and recording this onto modified 576/50i
> VTRs that will run at 48i for recording purposes) The other option,
> depending on the post-production route, is to just play out a 50i version
> from your non-linear editor if it is edited 24p. (Quantel support 24p
> editing, allowing real-time playout at either 480/60i adding 3:2 on the fly,
> or real-time playout at 576/50i playing out a little faster. They recommend
> telecineing 24p film material in the SD domain at 576p to keep the
> resolution up)
>
> However I suspect that DEFT conversions (which are more expensive) are used
> only for the 4:3 576/50i transfers which are required globally - whereas the
> 16:9 576/50i stuff is required by only a few territories at the moment (UK
> and Aus, though some other European countries might also be interested they
> mayalso need foreign language dubs as well?)

But isn't the foreign dubbing usually done in the designated countries?
IINM France won't allow movies _not_ dubbed in France to be shown.
And I doubt that even in a country as large as the USA there are enough
bilingual and/or multilingual actors to enable preparation of dubbed
films and/or TV series for export to other nations (with or without
providing requisite standards conversions).

> Channel Four - like most other broadcasters - will prioritise standards
> conversion quality over aspect ratio - so will always chose the higher
> quality transfer. In fact they stipulate DEFT-style clean transfers in
> their programme acquisition guidelines I think.
>
>>However, the masters for the last two seasons of "Frasier" definitely were
>>1080i, from 3-perf Super-35 film shot at 24fps, which should easily
>>downconvert to widescreen PAL.
>
> Yep - again it is a case of the costs I guess. Doing a 1080i/24p to 576/50i
> conversion using 2:2 pull-down and speed-up requires some effort I guess -

I'm not even sure why NBC made the switch to HDTV for the final seasons
of "Frasier", since the show was treated quite shabbily by the network
and Jeff Zucker during its later years, unless this was a decision by
Paramount. "Friends", which ended at the same time, never went HiDef,
and "Will & Grace" still is being shown only in 4x3, though uprezed to
1080i for NBC's HDT stations (and looks very good).

> do 1080/24p VTRs allow replay at 25p - allowing a straight 1080/25p 16:9 to
> 576/50i 16:9 downconversion ? I'd hope so - though the audio must be fun.

If you go to sony.com and check out their industrial gear you should
find the answer to this question. For obvious reasons the audio speedup
would be more of a problem than downrezing 1080 lines to 576. Faroudja
processing chips should be able to do the latter very easily.

Nevertheless, I don't think it's an issue of VTR technology so much as
the NLE. I'd expect that AVID Film Composer for 1080i would have the
requisite software to downconvert to both NTSC and PAL specs, though I'm
not absolutely certain of this. (My AVID Xpress doesn't do conversions,
but can be set to function for both NTSC and PAL.)

> I suspect that at the moment a single 4:3 576/50i transfer from either the
> 16:9 1080/24p source, or worse a 4:3 480/60i 3:2 downconversion, is made.
> (At least the 480/60i 3:2 can be un-3:2ed to 576/48i using DEFT stuff
> though!)

I'm pretty sure this has always been the method. For the first two
years the color on "Frasier" was atrocious (and wasn't fixed for the
DVDs), and UK friends reported this was also the case for PAL telecasts
of the show.

>>The final season of "Frasier" looked more obviously 'protected' for 4x3
>>than did S10.
>
> Yep - I didn't feel I was missing much in 4:3 - though it would have been
> nice to have pictures where my black pillar-box bars were.

The main advantage of the widescreen HDTV versions was you got to see
the sets in way more detail and, of course, the color was spectacular.

>>Forthcoming DVDs of "The O.C." S1 and "Frasier" S11 will be 4x3.
>
> That is a real shame - what a let down. The OC S1 is out already in the
> UK - I'll check and see what AR it is next time I'm in a DVD section in
> town.

Paramount probably figured that most people who watch "Frasier" and will
buy the S11 DVDs still have older 4x3 sets. Apparently they're
releasing the final season because it was so well received (it was
astoundingly good, in part because both Joe Keenan and Christopher Lloyd
were brought back as showrunners and writers).

However I don't understand why FOX wouldn't release "The O.C." in
widescreen since DVDs for "The X-Files" were widescreen consistent with
that show's switch to 16x9, circa S4 or 5 -- and the transfers were
superlative.






C.
Anonymous
October 30, 2004 7:39:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"manitou910" <manitou910@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:qMCdnRwNUOlEDh7cRVn-rw@rogers.com...
> Stephen Neal wrote:
>>
[snip]
> But isn't the foreign dubbing usually done in the designated countries?
> IINM France won't allow movies _not_ dubbed in France to be shown. And I
> doubt that even in a country as large as the USA there are enough
> bilingual and/or multilingual actors to enable preparation of dubbed films
> and/or TV series for export to other nations (with or without providing
> requisite standards conversions).

That is a very good point! I suspect you are right on the money there.

[snip]

> I'm not even sure why NBC made the switch to HDTV for the final seasons of
> "Frasier", since the show was treated quite shabbily by the network and
> Jeff Zucker during its later years, unless this was a decision by
> Paramount. "Friends", which ended at the same time, never went HiDef, and
> "Will & Grace" still is being shown only in 4x3, though uprezed to 1080i
> for NBC's HDT stations (and looks very good).

Is it likely that the upconversion for Will and Grace is done by the network
rather than local affiliates, so will be sourced from a digital component,
rather than NTSC analogue, feed? If so then you'll presumably benefit from
full luma and chroma bandwith that 4:2:2 production provides over NTSC
analogue and a 6MHz transmission channel?

>
>> do 1080/24p VTRs allow replay at 25p - allowing a straight 1080/25p 16:9
>> to 576/50i 16:9 downconversion ? I'd hope so - though the audio must be
>> fun.
>
> If you go to sony.com and check out their industrial gear you should find
> the answer to this question.

Yep - was just being lazy. I suspect both Sony and Panasonic VTRs will be
available that do this - though haven't confirmed. In fact I'm pretty
certain this is the case - as ISTR that the UK series Rockface, which was
shot and edited 1080/25p was downconverted to 24p for US co-production
partners via a slow-down (and I think this show was online conformed on VT
rather than an NLE) I also STR that the audio was an interesting obstacle
course from articles that the Beeb production team wrote after series 1.

> For obvious reasons the audio speedup would be more of a problem than
> downrezing 1080 lines to 576. Faroudja processing chips should be able to
> do the latter very easily.

Hmm - Faroudja don't seem to be quite so "big" a name in UK broadcast
circles - I suspect Snell and Wilcox stuff is used more over here for cross-
and down-conversion.

>
> Nevertheless, I don't think it's an issue of VTR technology so much as the
> NLE. I'd expect that AVID Film Composer for 1080i would have the
> requisite software to downconvert to both NTSC and PAL specs, though I'm
> not absolutely certain of this.

Yep - I think that most high-end NLEs that support 24p production will allow
for either 60i 3:2 or 50i 2:2 playout (possibly 48i 2:2?) - though they may
require rendering time I guess. The Quantel systems do this with some extra
hardware ISTR - so can playout the 50i and 60i versions live on-the-fly I
believe. (But you pay extra for the Quantel gear...)

>(My AVID Xpress doesn't do conversions, but can be set to function for both
>NTSC and PAL.)

Yep - though presumably you'd ignore NTSC or PAL and chose 24p if you were
editing 24p material.

(The Quantel SD solution - which I think a few US producers utilised -
entailed shoooting 24p film, transferring at 25p/50i 576 lines, editing this
material as if it were 24p, then playing out at 60i with a down-res or 50i
at the same res. Kept the best quality for all SD destinations - and didn't
require any fancy hardware upgrades - as existing telecines were fine in
576/50i mode)

>
>> I suspect that at the moment a single 4:3 576/50i transfer from either
>> the 16:9 1080/24p source, or worse a 4:3 480/60i 3:2 downconversion, is
>> made. (At least the 480/60i 3:2 can be un-3:2ed to 576/48i using DEFT
>> stuff though!)
>
> I'm pretty sure this has always been the method. For the first two years
> the color on "Frasier" was atrocious (and wasn't fixed for the DVDs), and
> UK friends reported this was also the case for PAL telecasts of the show.

I suspect if the show was edited on tape this had to be the case, and even
if edited on film they may have saved money by only doing a 480/60i telecine
pass / grade, just passing the final 480/60i tape master through a DEFT (or
worse, non-DEFT) converter.

>
>>>The final season of "Frasier" looked more obviously 'protected' for 4x3
>>>than did S10.
>>
>> Yep - I didn't feel I was missing much in 4:3 - though it would have been
>> nice to have pictures where my black pillar-box bars were.
>
> The main advantage of the widescreen HDTV versions was you got to see the
> sets in way more detail and, of course, the color was spectacular.
>

Though presumably the colour will have been pretty near identical to the
component digital (not a hint of PAL or NSTC subcarrier) we will have seen
in the UK via our DTV delivery schemes. (The show will have been sourced
from DigiBeta or SD D5 - Channel Four chose standard def D5 as their main
delivery format when they went component digital in the mid 90s - and
broadcast component digital. UK DVB set top boxes and TVs pretty much all
have RGB video output/inputs so the colour should have been similar - though
the chromaticity of HD and SD is slightly different - and I don't know if
the conversions take this into account or not?)

>>>Forthcoming DVDs of "The O.C." S1 and "Frasier" S11 will be 4x3.
>>
>> That is a real shame - what a let down. The OC S1 is out already in the
>> UK - I'll check and see what AR it is next time I'm in a DVD section in
>> town.
>
> Paramount probably figured that most people who watch "Frasier" and will
> buy the S11 DVDs still have older 4x3 sets. Apparently they're releasing
> the final season because it was so well received (it was astoundingly
> good, in part because both Joe Keenan and Christopher Lloyd were brought
> back as showrunners and writers).

Hmm - maybe that means the UK release will be treated differently. 16:9 is
now very much the norm for all DVD releases over here - though in the cases
of very early releases 16:9 letterbox transfers in 4:3 rather than 16:9
anamorphic transfers were released. Thankfully this is no longer the case.
I wonder - we'll have to wait and see. AIUI the latest West Wing DVDs
released in the UK are 16:9 FHA.

>
> However I don't understand why FOX wouldn't release "The O.C." in
> widescreen since DVDs for "The X-Files" were widescreen consistent with
> that show's switch to 16x9, circa S4 or 5 -- and the transfers were
> superlative.
>

No - that does seem strange. Wonder if it is at all related to the
difficulty C4 have in getting a 16:9 master for transmission over here.
Suspect not, but you do wonder!

(Could it be that broadcast sales and DVD release are dealt with the same,
different, arm of the organisation to domestic broadcast?)

Steve
!