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1080 i vs 1080 p

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a c 130 U Graphics card
December 1, 2008 3:57:58 PM

The main point of this thread is to find out from actual people who use HD or HD ready TV's if they think its worth it or not.
Im looking at getting one so that i can run through my PC and play games /stream movies but have some small niggles that makes me wonder if its not just as well to get a cheaper 1080 i TV rather than a 1080 p one.
Specifically. Yes they are great when getting a DVD/HD signal but not so good when the standard sky/virgin etc is attached.
Now im guessing the situation may be differant in other countries but im in the UK and there are only so many stations available in HD, so at some point you are going to end up with the sub par picture that the standard signal gives you.
Do Plasma's suffer from this more than LCD,s ?

Thanks for any input

Mactronix

More about : 1080 1080

December 1, 2008 4:05:35 PM

I find that it isn't so much SD looking like crap all of a sudden but more like SD looking like crap because you get used quickly to HD :p 

Buying a TV is a purchase you should do while thinking ahead. You wouldn't want to have to re-buy in a couple of months because your shiny new toy doesn't support what you want to watch, do you?
December 1, 2008 4:06:27 PM

ya im wondering too because HD tvs are cheap right now O_O and im thinking about getting one!
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December 1, 2008 4:14:36 PM

Personally I'm waiting for the boxing day sales. Black friday had one or two decent deals but one was a refurbished and the other one was a Sony which I now boycott :p 
a c 130 U Graphics card
December 1, 2008 4:38:46 PM

Its not so much the actual picture quality differance that consernes me, its things like ghosting or banding, i know someone who has a big plasma and it gets these fine mainly diagonal lines on it when its using a standard signal. Its fine with a DVD etc signal but sucks big time with a standard one.

mactronix
December 1, 2008 4:48:05 PM

If you're going to be connecting a pc and doing any gaming, 1080p is a must. Visual performance is going to vary from maker and model. You'll have to search and search and search some more through first hand reviews of particular makes/models. Also go to a brick and mortar dealer so you can compare side by side, ask them if you can play with the settings.
December 1, 2008 5:44:59 PM

Get a 1080p LCD, don't get a plasma for gaming. I'm sure you've heard of this before but gaming on a plasma can result in image burn in because lots of games have static UI's that are on the same part of the screen the entire time you're playing and some plasmas will burn the image in if left too long.

Personally I would go for Samsung or LG. They're both making incredible 1080P LCD's and are actually fairly cheap atm. I have a 42'' Samsung 1080p lcd atm and also a 42'' LG 1080p and both are VERY similar and both have incredible pictures.
December 1, 2008 6:00:01 PM

Liderc said:
Get a 1080p LCD, don't get a plasma for gaming. I'm sure you've heard of this before but gaming on a plasma can result in image burn in because lots of games have static UI's that are on the same part of the screen the entire time you're playing and some plasmas will burn the image in if left too long.


This might have been true for very cheap plasma screens 5-10 years ago. This is not true for modern plasma screens.

Best movie experience still comes from plasma. For gaming I could go either way.
December 1, 2008 6:08:53 PM

daskrabbe said:
This might have been true for very cheap plasma screens 5-10 years ago. This is not true for modern plasma screens.

Best movie experience still comes from plasma. For gaming I could go either way.


True, modern plasma panels are MUCH better than they used to be.

In the end, Mactronix, you need to go out and try to see/tinker with as many different models as you can.
December 1, 2008 6:21:23 PM

1080i vs 1080p also means the difference between 30fps and 60fps. If you play games that move fast, that will make a big difference.

furthermore, most of the old 1080i sets don't have HDMI inputs, meaning I had to sell my big Mitsubishi that I loved in order to enjoy Blue-ray and upconverted DVDs
December 1, 2008 6:32:37 PM

Plasma doesn't image burn anymore. They fixed most of the kinks with plasma, only thing is its more expensive than LCDs.

Difference is, Plasmas have stronger color and quality, and the black actually is black (LCD can't do realy black, just greyish black, cuz of the backlight).

I'd do LCD, just because its mainstream and its more widely used than Plasma, plus u save money, and u won't be afraid of compatibility.

as for 1080p and 1080i, like jeremyrailton said, the quality is pretty substancial.

On my PS3, colors come out more distinct and together, and to me it looks like even AA effect looks better.

1080p is backwards compatible to i while i isn't forward compatible to p.
December 1, 2008 6:54:29 PM

I game on a 46" Sceptre 1080p. I went with the P because the max resolution allows for more playable area in the games that I run, but I bought the Sceptre because I had seen it side by side with a Sony and Philips, and ghosting was apparent on both of those, but not so much on the Sceptre. In the end, if you are doing what I do, and connect a pc as an all in one home theater setup, then you really need to make sure the TV you get handles the game titles you want to play with little to no screen tear or ghosting. I hate playing games with even a slight amount of those effects happening. And make sure it has ALL of the features you want, nothing like just living with a TV you found, and actually enjoying a TV you wanted.
December 1, 2008 6:54:41 PM

jeremyrailton said:
1080i vs 1080p also means the difference between 30fps and 60fps. If you play games that move fast, that will make a big difference.

That's not exactly 100% accurate; in 1080i, every other vertical line of resolution, as in 540 per frame is drawn, causing the image to be blurrier. In 1080p, all 1080 vertical lines of resolution are drawn in every frame. A side effect will of course be images not appearing as sharp when you're at a high framerate, but 1080p at 30fps will still look better than 1080i at 30fps regardless.
December 1, 2008 7:25:54 PM

Heyyou27 said:
That's not exactly 100% accurate; in 1080i, every other vertical line of resolution, as in 540 per frame is drawn, causing the image to be blurrier. In 1080p, all 1080 vertical lines of resolution are drawn in every frame. A side effect will of course be images not appearing as sharp when you're at a high framerate, but 1080p at 30fps will still look better than 1080i at 30fps regardless.


Exactly. 1080i only draws half the lines per refresh cuasing a bit more blur which is more noticeble with fast moving scenes. i have a tv tuner on my computer. big difference when the show is in 720p vs 1080i (no 1080p shows that i can get for free). even though i have hardware acceleration i notice more blurring when watching shows like the unit (which is broadcasted in 1080i) vs terminator (broadcasted in 720p).

if you are going to game or watch lots of sports get a 720p tv or 1080p, not 1080i.
a b U Graphics card
December 1, 2008 8:03:14 PM

Heyyou27 said:
That's not exactly 100% accurate; in 1080i, every other vertical line of resolution, as in 540 per frame is drawn, causing the image to be blurrier. In 1080p, all 1080 vertical lines of resolution are drawn in every frame. A side effect will of course be images not appearing as sharp when you're at a high framerate, but 1080p at 30fps will still look better than 1080i at 30fps regardless.


Right. 1080p vs 1080i has nothing to do with resolution or FPS. 1080p is just a better image quality over all than 1080i. The whole picture gets redrawn together, rather than half now, half later. So the image will appear sharper.

Before High Definition actually existed I used to sell TVs and DVD players. When Progressive Scan (p) DVD players came out, I could see the visual clarity between DVDs on basic DVD players & progressive scan players.

I personally own a 42" Plasma HDTV (1080i) using a digital/HD cable service via an HDMI cable. The visual quality between Digital Standard Definition & High Def (which by its very nature is digital) is pretty dramatic. I will say though, that with my 1080i setting, I can see some blurring up close with fast paced images like Football.

If you can, buy a 1080p for sure.
a b U Graphics card
December 1, 2008 8:06:42 PM

If it was only for video (TV, DVD, ...) I would say the price difference between 1080i and 1080p could be worth balancing, but if you plug a PC in, I think 1080p is a must. I tried both and I can say reading text on a 1080i screen can get straining on the eye after only an hour.
a b U Graphics card
December 1, 2008 8:08:06 PM

Thorbaden said:
Exactly. 1080i only draws half the lines per refresh cuasing a bit more blur which is more noticeble with fast moving scenes. i have a tv tuner on my computer. big difference when the show is in 720p vs 1080i (no 1080p shows that i can get for free). even though i have hardware acceleration i notice more blurring when watching shows like the unit (which is broadcasted in 1080i) vs terminator (broadcasted in 720p).

if you are going to game or watch lots of sports get a 720p tv or 1080p, not 1080i.


I have to disagree with one thing here.

Buy a 1080p or 1080i. I wouldn't go 720p myself. Most 1080i TVs are capable of 720p from my understanding, and can be set through options to display at 720p instead. The extra 1080i (higher resolution) might just well be worth it to some folks.

Also, depending on size, 720p won't look as good on larger TVs, where as on a 32" TV it's probably fine. The bigger the screen, the higher resolution you need to keep the image sharp and clear anyhow. Otherwise you're just stretching the image out onto a larger surface.
a c 130 U Graphics card
December 1, 2008 8:16:59 PM

Thanks alot for all the answers guys, and especially the explanations.

So it seems that my worries about being overspecked as regards the standard broadcast quality looking crap on the 1080 P screen are balanced by the DVD/HD content and games not looking as good as they could or possably crap also on the 1080 i screen.

That being the case and taking the point that the set will be around for a while into account its got to be a 1080 P

Again Thanks
Mactronix
a b U Graphics card
December 1, 2008 8:24:59 PM

I don't have alot of time right now at work, just going from one M$ Meeting to another, but will reply later.

IMO 1080P is a must, period. Next Plasma > LCD for motion, LCD > for Text.
For standard def on 1080p my experiece is that is depends more on the upconversion hardware than the panel, some are good (Samsung and Pioneer) others are terrible (Sharp and LG [for both plasma and LCD IMO]), but despite LG's terrible upconversion, they do have a pretty solid LCD for native, but their Plasmas I've found haven't aged well.
Will discuss further later.
December 1, 2008 9:31:04 PM

From what I've seen Plasma's still have image burn in(I do A LOT of tv research for my job). It's definitely improved in the last 5 years, but image burn in still occurs with constant static imaging. Also they're actually cheaper than LCD's right now, not sure why someone was saying they're more expensive. I don't have anything against plasma's, I think they have amazing pictures, but when you can get the same size LCD for 100 bucks more, I see no reason NOT to get an LCD.
a b U Graphics card
December 1, 2008 10:39:56 PM

OK just to clear up some confusion here;

A) Plasma still experience burn-in, it just takes alot to do it. It desn't matter the pixel swizzling and pixel washing technology that's there if the static image is there a long time it will burn in, the thing is if you catch it early you can undo it, but if you just play the same game all day for days/weeks on end you can still do permanent damage even to modern Plasmas. But for motion you can't beat a plasma for flat panel (DLP and Laser are better but they are projection technologies, and OLED is too small right now). To me, just be sure after any game session, pixel-wash the display before turning off.

B) 1080i and 1080p both default to 30fps, 1080i is just 60 fields per second (stil draws 1080 lines be frame, 540 per field), whereas you can get 1080P in 24/30/50/60 frames per second, with 24 and 30 being the most common 60fps is very bit/bandwidth intensive and rare as a source (mainly downloaded content actually). They also can produce the same image quality, but that's for mainly static images. Motion is a problem for interlacing where progressive does a better job with fast motion (although the blur/bleed helps there too, which LCDs can't do), but it's also a problem for progressive when trying to de-interlace source material that starts as interlaced. The advantage to some 1080P displays is that they support higher bit-depth now (usually refered to as deep colour), this has less to do with just 1080P than the new formats for HDMI and HD content. Running 12bit per channel HD content to a weak 1080P LCD doesn't mean it will look better than running 8bit per channel content to a well tuned CRT.

C) The biggest issue is that most advertised 1080i TVs that aren't CRTs use dithering of off resolutions on a fixed pixel and thus can't really show 1080i, and are really some other resolution (most plasmas that are 1080i and not 1080p are 1024x768 or 1280x1024 or even 1280 x 1080 etc ) so you're not seeing the actual picture so much as a 'made to fit' translation of the source material. A 1920x1080 TV though should handle a 1080i fine since it just does alternate line draw and no dithering, but it also needs to be 1920x1080 source and not the bastardized options in many recording and content formats.

D)IMO 720P is a waste of time, because while many providers started with 720P most are pushing to 1080i before going to 1080P, because the displays have gone that route. 720P is a dying format, where content will be 1080P in the future and as such will fit best with 1080i and 1080P, and for anyone buying new 1080P is the only way to go, unless you know you're sticking with a PS3 or X360 long term and little else.

E) Problem with your European broadcasts is that standard def there is different than standard def here, where you're 576/625 : 50i and N.America and Japan, Korea and a few others are NTSC 480/535 60i, so the abilities for some TVs to handle the upconversion may vary greatly. My examples are 60i content, and may differ from a PAL upconversion, which may or may not suffer due to the focus on NTSC in those markets. Perhaps the LGs were great at PAL upconverting. But as you may have come to understand in your last post, upconverting to 1080i is no better, and considering it's likely some wonky resolution, and not true 1080i, that just makes things worse some times. Alot of it depends on the content, and the best material to compared on in the store, is the stuff you would focus on for AA, look at angled lines in motion, thet's usually where you see the staircasing or ant-crawl for deinterlacing artifacts.

F) Movies and Sports and Gaming tend to look best on Plasmas which have great black-white-black and white-black-white transistions, and nice deep blacks and bright whites, also with greatt colour gradients. I find hockey unwatchable on most LCDs, but Awesome on Plasmas. DLPs are also great for this, but you need to be sure you don't experience what I and some others do which is the rainbow effect (even on current 360hz gen2 models), this is due to the colour wheel, expensive 3 chip models don't have this, and have the best of both worlds of Plasma and LCD. Laser is similar in that respect, but is very expensive.
Text tends to look better on LCDs because they have rigid defined edges to the pixels, while Plasmas like CRTs benifit and suffer from edge-bleeding/blending, which helps make a picture look smooth but makes text a little blurrier than an LCD. DLPs are nice and crisp like an LCD for text, as are Laser TVs. So what will your primary focus be, using it as a computer monitor for lotsa text work with the occasional game / sports / movie, or vice versa?

G) Something that has to be mentioned, Plasma are wicked Warm! LCDs aren't cold as cucumbers, but the heat put off of a plasma is quite noticable, especially in a small room with limited airflow. DLP depends on the bulb used, but they tend to be in between the two for temperature close to the LCD side nowadays. Lasers despite the thoughts their name conjurs up, use less power and generate less heat than LCDs.

Now with that said, I have to say when watching the 1080i broadcast of Hockey Night in Canada on Saturday nights, nothing beats my 30" Phillips in the bedroom or the old 34" Toshiba for picture quality, and they are both 1080i CRTs. But the only thing that comes in a close second is a 1080P plasma which does fine, since it plays the HD-DVD and BluRays best. But only now with Plasmas like the Pioneer Kuros or even the Panasonics do you have something that matches the quality of a nice CRT for colour, contrast and blacks/whites.

Like you seem to know now 1080P is a must, but Plasma vs LCD is your next question.

As for the diagonal lines your friend gets, that sounds like line noise, either from interference with the signal reception or from transmission to the TV (affected by electrical line noise). It's not that it's SD so much as that the transmission is Analogue, either to the receiver or from the receiver (S-VHS, Scart, etc). The later can be fixed with line conditioning and good cables, the former is something that may or may not be fixable by a better antennae.

My recommendation depending on the price in your area, Panasonic 1080P Plasma, it's usually a solid panel. The Pioneer Kuros are spectacular, but they cost for that, and their lower end models aren't as nice IMO. Then the Hitachis (although be sure it's 1920x1080 and not the old 1280x1080) are my next favourite. The other issue is size as it's hard to find 1080P in the smaller sizes, many start at 50" as their minimum. The Panasonics start at 42" which is nice.

Anywhoo, that' my 2 frames (or 4 fields) worth. Hope that helps or at least makes you think of some good next questions.
a b U Graphics card
December 1, 2008 10:46:48 PM

Liderc said:
From what I've seen Plasma's still have image burn in(I do A LOT of tv research for my job). It's definitely improved in the last 5 years, but image burn in still occurs with constant static imaging.


Yep, wrote my reply over the course of time here at work, and said the same thing. The improved techniques help, but it still happens if people aren't careful. The nice thing though is that even what used to be severe burn in can often been fixed with a crap load of pixel wash cycles. I don't recommend risking it, but I've seen a few bad cases that would've meant trashing the TV in the past, fixed with aot of effort.

Quote:
Also they're actually cheaper than LCD's right now, not sure why someone was saying they're more expensive. I don't have anything against plasma's, I think they have amazing pictures, but when you can get the same size LCD for 100 bucks more, I see no reason NOT to get an LCD.


Depends on the size and quality as to the price. I tend to see smaller LCDs cheaper and larger generic Plasmas cheaper, however I've not seen an LCD contend with a Kuro for price in their size range.
December 1, 2008 11:30:23 PM

Have you seen any of the LED backlight screens? (Mainly the 9 series Samsungs?) I'm curious about this tech. The picture quality looked great; color gamut appeared identical to the pioneer elite next to it. The blacks were also very very close to Plasma's.
December 2, 2008 2:19:48 AM

How big? 60+in plasma is a no brainier, any smaller LCD all the way, look at it befor you buy it with a full black screen, check for bleeding. Some newer HD LCD's have a 120hz refresh which is amazazazing 1080P=a horizontal resolution of 1080 pixels 1080i= 540 interlaced pixels to get a staggerd affect of "full HD" go for 1080P its the future.

Hope this helps.
a b U Graphics card
December 2, 2008 5:29:32 AM

wonderingwhatis said:
Have you seen any of the LED backlight screens? (Mainly the 9 series Samsungs?) I'm curious about this tech. The picture quality looked great; color gamut appeared identical to the pioneer elite next to it. The blacks were also very very close to Plasma's.


The LED Backlit LCDs are good and the gamut is great (superior to CRT), but the gradation is still not as good, and that where Plasma and CRT still excel, but that's about as close as LCD get until they go to the HDR LED lit type panels found on Desktops (or in the displays like the Brightside).

x_2fast4u_x said:
Some newer HD LCD's have a 120hz refresh which is amazazazing


More like marketing, it's still a question of the speed of the actual pixel refresh. 120hz refresh vs 480hz of the Panasonic Plasma. But in reality that LCD can't get anywhere near 120hz when it's still taking about true black to white to black or white to black to white. Just half transitions can get close. And the benefit of 120hz is mainly for pixel refresh for scrolling marquees and such which isn't about colour accuracy as much as edge accuracy to add sharpness to images that scrolled to slowly across the screen (calculate how long it take for a word to cross a screen face and how many pixels it crosses on the way and wether calculating a half-way point in a refresh makes sense)

Quote:
1080P=a horizontal resolution of 1080 pixels


No, Horizontal resolution is 1920 pixels, it's 1080 Horizontal lines you're thinking of.

Quote:
1080i= 540 interlaced pixels to get a staggerd affect of "full HD"


No that's 540 interlaced lines which each still have 1920 pixels horizontal resolution (although not all monitors or content display as such) and it's still 1080 line per frame, just like 1080P.
a c 130 U Graphics card
December 2, 2008 8:28:29 AM

Wow thanks TGGA thats a lot of very good usefull info there,
On the subject of size im not looking at a big screen but would go bigger if it meant better. I wont keep to a strict budget, wont buy cheap but also will be looking at our old favourite, bang for the buck and as such will be looking at mid to highend models in the 37"- 42"+ sizes. As i say im flexable as regards this depending on the sizes available in the model tech i like the look of.
I will be using it for mainly TV/Movies/DVD etc, gaming wont be its main focus but i will use it now and then.

Im leaning towards a DLP now and was wondering what sort of content i should use to test it at the shop ? I guess this info would be usefull for Plasma and LCD as well, although to be honest im moving away from plasma as i really dont like the text blead issue.
Im guessing a DVD with subtitles and something fast paced with some dark scenes in it ?

So now im looking at a DLP that is 1080 P. Size i dont really know, which fits best with PAL Formats and DVD content nativly ? Its all wide screen now but which ratio is it ? Although again guessing that as long as its not a cheap set it should be able to handle the scalling ok.

Thanks again

Mactronix
a b U Graphics card
December 2, 2008 2:46:49 PM

Well under 50" you have difficulty finding anything other than LCD that's 1080P, although Panasonic does have 2 Plasma models that I know of (I think the difference is one has an SD reader and an extra HDMI [3 instead of 2]), but that's here in N.Am.
DLP will depend on what's available over there.

For content I would suggest trying to get 4 good quality content items (that is if they don't have the HQV disks on hand). Fast action sport that you might watch (hockey is a killer for quick changing black/white levels and contrast change), grass sports are good to see the greens and fast movement. Then a dark scene of a movie, it will show you if you get details in the shadows and such or if it just crushes the heck out of the blacks (even good LCDs tend to do that), and then also shows you light bleeding which is an issue for LCDs and Plasmas, but less for DLPs; Blade Runner on HD-DVd or BLuRay is good for that as is Underworld (although it tends to be a bit blue-tinged). Then get something with text, IMO, something like a financial channel, that has both scrolling bars, static text, and graphs and other graphics, alongside people and other content, and then finally, some spectacularly epically colourful scene to see how well it does the colours. Of course with all these things it would be good to see what they are supposed to look like first (I use my calibrated CRT as my model, you need to find you baseline image). I would also recommend selecting some great stills you like that are diverse (maybe do some full res screen-captures of text cropped to 1920x1080 [do not scale], and then loading them on an SD card and USB stick (or usb reader for the SD card) and then run through those as well.

Don't judge the plasmas on their edge bleeding/blending until you see them. I don't want to oversell the drawback, and it may really be fine for you depending on your distance from the screen, but if you're up close it might annoy you, as may the grid lines of an LCD.
It's definitely something where you must experience it to know what the biggest drawbacks for you. The rainbow effect for me is brutal so clourwheel DLP is out for me regeardless of all other benefits. And there may be some killer drawback for one of them we haven't discussed yet.

The ratio of Wide Screen depends on the content and hardware, but 1920x1080 is 16:9 for widescreen TVs and 16:10 is the computer widescreen (1920x1200), although some broadcasts are broadcast in 4:3 or in other 'off formats' which may have HD level content, but is letter boxed or anamorphic.

Anywhoo, hope that helps add to the info.
a c 130 U Graphics card
December 2, 2008 3:47:24 PM

Thanks again for all the info people.
Guess its suck it and see time.

Mactronix
a b U Graphics card
December 2, 2008 7:19:01 PM

Yep, people can tell you all the specs and theoretical advantage, but until you put eyes on both you never know what works best for you.
And the other thing is despite A or B being theoreticaly better for your needs, often the lower end or weaker models of the better technology is worse than the best of the other so then it comes down to what you can find & buy near you.
!