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Why not anti-freeze?

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April 11, 2010 3:26:34 AM

im curious to know why no one recommends putting antifreeze into your WC loops instead of those anti corrosive, anti bacteria, and anti everything.

i got 80/20 of distilled water and antifreeze in my system and it cools just fine.

wat would be the disadvantage in using it

More about : anti freeze

a c 86 K Overclocking
April 11, 2010 4:19:48 AM

LOL. This is just too funny.

The name Anti-freeze. It's usage in a car loop is... Ohh I know maybe you don't. So I'll answer this old many times asked lame question.

Anti freeze keeps the water in a car loop from boiling. It also, depending on the temps and mixture levels keeps the water from freezing.

Is your watercooling loop going to be above 212F or below 32F temps? LOL NO. cars run water temps at over 150F, up to 200+. We run WC at 110 +/- 20F. Gaaaaa. Stupid internet.

In a car loop you can have steel, alumininum, copper, and brass in a loop. So they add anti corrosive chemicals.

I don't know if you have really done any research or been on watercooling forums for more than 3.2 minutes. I've spent years.

In a modern watercooling loop we use distillled water and a biocide. You can figure out the specific heat properties of pure water vs any other fun stuff you want, pure water wins. We need no below freezing or anti-corrosive liquids.

You could see a drop in temps, but it's in %. You just don't need antifreeze, you need biocide. At the 6 months drain please get rid of the antifreeze.

BTW, your antifreeze doen't stop algae or other nasties from growing.

i4ynu, you really need to hang out at a few other forums and read a lot..............
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April 11, 2010 6:16:29 AM

I see a pattern of pride and doucheness from you. Why do you get off treating people like you know it all and they are all scum? I could throw info at you that you would have to google for hours to still no avail.. but I'm not gonna be a dick about it.
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a b K Overclocking
April 11, 2010 7:03:26 AM

I like how he 1) didn't provide an answer in a clear manor, and 2) wrote things that aren't true.

Quote:
I don't know if you have really done any research or been on watercooling forums for more than 3.2 minutes.


This might be his research.

My attempt at answering this question is that its not needed. As mentioned, alcohol helps prevent freezing which isn't going to happen in a water cooling loop. Remember that alcohol can boil at around 150F, so it doesn't help to have it in high heat situations. Alcohol also doesn't have as good specific heat values as water does. It takes less energy to heat alcohol as it does water, so it would get hotter faster. Go search specific heat if you don't understand the term.
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a b K Overclocking
April 11, 2010 7:15:32 AM

As a side note seeing as I have this graph handy...

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-fluids-...

If I remember correctly the first column is the amount of heat it can hold, while the second column is the amount of energy needed to heat it. (ignoring the column with the name of course...) If you scroll through the list, only Ammonia can hold more heat and needs more energy to raise its temp. Perhaps Windex is a better additive? Not sure of its boiling temp though...
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April 11, 2010 7:16:24 AM

Now THAT conundrum.. is the mature and polite way to go about answering someones question. Not ridiculing them and treating them like they should be kissing the ground you walk on. Now #'s... Kudos for the polite and knowledgeable answer to the question at hand. And just for the record Conundrum, if I was your client I would have fired you and hired ol' #'s here.
Not that you care anyway because I am sure you are going to come back on here and try to have some snappy come back that you have been googling for the past 10 minutes now and counting. Just give dude, I don't care anymore. I just want to do business here and be treated as a human being, a tech.. friggin anything really that closely resembles something positive to the exact polar opposite of how you treat everyone I have seen you respond to. Have a nice day.
Oh and a side note..
I have decided to go Cryo :)  Woot!
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April 11, 2010 7:26:52 AM

Conumdrum said:
LOL. This is just too funny.

The name Anti-freeze. It's usage in a car loop is... Ohh I know maybe you don't. So I'll answer this old many times asked lame question.

Anti freeze keeps the water in a car loop from boiling. It also, depending on the temps and mixture levels keeps the water from freezing.

Is your watercooling loop going to be above 212F or below 32F temps? LOL NO. cars run water temps at over 150F, up to 200+. We run WC at 110 +/- 20F. Gaaaaa. Stupid internet.

In a car loop you can have steel, alumininum, copper, and brass in a loop. So they add anti corrosive chemicals.

I don't know if you have really done any research or been on watercooling forums for more than 3.2 minutes. I've spent years.

In a modern watercooling loop we use distillled water and a biocide. You can figure out the specific heat properties of pure water vs any other fun stuff you want, pure water wins. We need no below freezing or anti-corrosive liquids.

You could see a drop in temps, but it's in %. You just don't need antifreeze, you need biocide. At the 6 months drain please get rid of the antifreeze.

BTW, your antifreeze doen't stop algae or other nasties from growing.

i4ynu, you really need to hang out at a few other forums and read a lot..............


its funny but i HAVE read and have done more research then you originally thought.

http://www.frozencpu.com/images/products/pdf/ex-liq-75....

this is the material safety data sheet for feser one non conductive fluid. runs about $20 a bottle and its strange that it also has ethylene-glycol in it...the same ethylene-glycol that anti-freeze uses. its less then 20% of the bottle but thats still a reasonable amount of E.G.

the old coolant i used was from innovatek and you know what? its a E.G. based coolant also. if E.G. is such a horrible thing to use in your WC why are they being sold online for so much?

plus you said that cars have copper and brass...i have a copper heat sink with brass fittings.

from my research there is no difference between those ''performance'' coolants online and my distilled water/ anti-freeze mixture.
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April 11, 2010 1:47:29 PM

Not that I'm any kind of water cooling expert but I do know that antifreeze, like the type used in cars, is added to stop the water in the cooling system from freezing and also from boiling. A car engine experiences much wider range of temp extremes compared to a computer.

Even under heavy use with overclocking, a well designed (adequate tubing size, pump flow, large enough radiator with fans, etc) and laid out water cooling system will not let the coolant get hot enough to boil and unless the computer is sitting outside in Siberia, the coolant is not going to get cold enough to freeze.

So, given the temp range and use of a computer, the reasons you add anti-freeze to an engine do not apply to a computer. And, if I read the stats/graphs correctly, straight distilled water expels heat better/faster than distilled water with an anti-freeze additive; that is to say that adding anti-freeze actually makes the water retain heat. Albeit this heat exchange in the context of a computer is so minimal that it really is a moot point. The bottles of coolant with ethyl-glycol added are, more or less, a gimmick made to make folks spend (waste) money.

But as much of a jerk Conundrum came off, I do agree that straight water is the "best" coolant for a computer water cooling loop but also agree that adding a non-conductive algaecide (PrimoChill, PC ICE, etc) is a good idea.
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a b K Overclocking
April 11, 2010 3:43:02 PM

i4yue said:
its funny but i HAVE read and have done more research then you originally thought.

http://www.frozencpu.com/images/products/pdf/ex-liq-75....

this is the material safety data sheet for feser one non conductive fluid. runs about $20 a bottle and its strange that it also has ethylene-glycol in it...the same ethylene-glycol that anti-freeze uses. its less then 20% of the bottle but thats still a reasonable amount of E.G.

the old coolant i used was from innovatek and you know what? its a E.G. based coolant also. if E.G. is such a horrible thing to use in your WC why are they being sold online for so much?

plus you said that cars have copper and brass...i have a copper heat sink with brass fittings.

from my research there is no difference between those ''performance'' coolants online and my distilled water/ anti-freeze mixture.

Ohh.... the ALL MIGHTY Feser One!!!!
Lol, total cr@p product: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22...

The CAR rads are ALSO ALUMINIUM. Al + Cu &| brass = Galvanic corrosion. Copper + Brass != galvanic corrosion. Anti Freeze should be used only if there are mixed metals (Cu + Al) in the loop.
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April 11, 2010 8:20:26 PM

chunkymonster said:
Not that I'm any kind of water cooling expert but I do know that antifreeze, like the type used in cars, is added to stop the water in the cooling system from freezing and also from boiling. A car engine experiences much wider range of temp extremes compared to a computer.

Even under heavy use with overclocking, a well designed (adequate tubing size, pump flow, large enough radiator with fans, etc) and laid out water cooling system will not let the coolant get hot enough to boil and unless the computer is sitting outside in Siberia, the coolant is not going to get cold enough to freeze.


if you read my previous post...you would see that the two brands i showed you guys had EG in it. why would they use it in thier WC fluids if it served no use.
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a b K Overclocking
April 11, 2010 8:40:30 PM

^ Didn't you read my post? That's what happens when you put non needed cr@p like EG.
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April 11, 2010 8:51:46 PM

didnt you read mine? i DO have mixed metals in my loop
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April 11, 2010 9:17:41 PM

H20 properties dissipate heat better then Ethylene Glycol. Anybody in any warm climate (Southern Arizona, Southern California) run pure water in their radiators for better cooling. I know much more about cars then computers if you can decipher my screen name.

Just use distilled water.
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April 11, 2010 9:39:36 PM

i4yue said:
if you read my previous post...you would see that the two brands i showed you guys had EG in it. why would they use it in thier WC fluids if it served no use.

chunkymonster said:
straight distilled water expels heat better/faster than distilled water with an anti-freeze additive; that is to say that adding anti-freeze actually makes the water retain heat...The bottles of coolant with ethyl-glycol added are, more or less, a gimmick made to make folks spend (waste) money.
'Nuff said...
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a b K Overclocking
April 11, 2010 10:16:00 PM

i4yue said:
didnt you read mine? i DO have mixed metals in my loop

No you don't. When we mean mixed metals we mean metals that will cause galvanic corrosion (such is the case with Cu + Al). Copper + Brass will not create galvanic corrosion and I did say this in my post.

I quote my self:
Quote:
Copper + Brass != galvanic corrosion.

In case you'r confused, in many programming languages != denotes "does not equal to" or "not equal to".
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April 12, 2010 3:55:15 AM

There's your problem right there Shadow, contrary to what we know, apparently a large percentage of the world doesn't understand that (!= == not equals) is true;
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a b K Overclocking
April 12, 2010 3:59:32 AM

What are you talking about? In order to have an account here don't you need to know 2 different programing languages? he he.
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a b K Overclocking
April 12, 2010 5:04:06 AM

i4yue said:
im curious to know why no one recommends putting antifreeze into your WC loops instead of those anti corrosive, anti bacteria, and anti everything.

i got 80/20 of distilled water and antifreeze in my system and it cools just fine.

wat would be the disadvantage in using it


He's not just acting duchy, he's wrong. Swiftech's concentrated coolant additive is...

drumroll please!

Antifreeze!

Undiluted ethylene glycol. I have no noticeable filth in my cooling loop after TWO YEARS of using the stuff.
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a b K Overclocking
April 12, 2010 5:08:26 AM

Shadow703793 said:
Ohh.... the ALL MIGHTY Feser One!!!!
Lol, total cr@p product: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22...

The CAR rads are ALSO ALUMINIUM. Al + Cu &| brass = Galvanic corrosion. Copper + Brass != galvanic corrosion. Anti Freeze should be used only if there are mixed metals (Cu + Al) in the loop.


That's true, automotive antifreeze has LUBRICANTS, DETERGENTS and, most importantly, ANTI-CORROSIVE AGENTS, all in minimum quantities to reduce any effect on cooling performance.

Of course, those are things that are added to ethylene glycol.
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April 12, 2010 9:06:54 AM

Best answer selected by i4yue.
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April 12, 2010 1:53:20 PM

To each their own. At the very minimum, it is best to run some sort of biocide in your distilled water. If you don't mix your metals, then you really don't need ethylene Glycol alcohol in your fluid. The other factors (lubricants, detergents, etc.) aren't really necessary either, unless you feel you need to do it.

Myself, I have used just about everything in the past. I experimented a couple years ago with several products, and have one rig still running Fluid XP+ for over three years now without having to change the fluid in the loop. Every three months, I crack the case, look at all the tubing and waterblocks, and top off the line since fluid is lost due to osmotic loss through the PVC tubing. My other rigs are running distilled water + PT Nuke and get a flush every six months.
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April 12, 2010 2:19:16 PM

ROFL!!!

I just went on Danger Den's site, I am basically just checking the forums of as many sites as I can to read as much info as possible, because I am new to water cooling, anyways, You won't believe what I've found.

Guess who is on the forums? I couldn't believe it-

http://www.dangerden.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=117...

Thats right, it's Conumdrum, and he is basically saying the same thing on there sites as he said in my post-

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/258447-29-liquid-cool...

Here is that link again- lol

http://www.dangerden.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=117...

Quote:
Conumdrum wrote: I agree. You got lots of questions.

Can I ask you one thing. How long have you been looking at watercooling? How many hours or days or weeks have you been digging into the FAQs here.

From your questions not a lot.

Please start at the top of this forum under FAQs and begin your journey. I'm a very experianced watercooler. ot world class but more than a few years under my belt. It took me TRHEE months of frequenting 4 forums on a daily basic absorbing it all. We can do it in less than that but you need to do your homework. From what you said I can see from the questions you asked. You got a ways to go.

Start at the top of this forum. Always any forum you visit start at the top.

I'm Conumdrum at OC Forums, ask me there once some homework is done.


Quote:
Conumdrum wrote: You first need to spend 4-5 hours looking at radiators at Martin and Skinnees. You need ditch the Exos junk. You don't need dyes oar anything else in the water besides Distilled water ($1 a gallon) and a quality biocide like Petras PHN PT-Nuke.
The RS 360 rad is an old design.

Each rad has fan requirements depending on rad thickness and Fin Per Inch (FPI). Some rads do great with low speed fans, some do better with higher speed fans.

Your best bet is to step back, read a LOT of posts from beginning to end to really figure out your needs. Right now it's a odd hodgepoge of stuff I can't get my head around. See you in a few weeks, join a few forums besides this one. I'm the ONLY experianced enthusiast here, and I don't get payed to solve others issues.

Again, I'm Conumdrum on OC Forums and Xtreme forums. After reading 20-50 posts from beginning to end then I'm ready to talk.

Start with the sticky/FAQ at the top.

SLOWW DOWN dude. Enthusiasm and no knowledge creates massive problems. Don't be one of them.


I think it's funny and sad at the same time that he feels the need to make us all feel stupid about our age. A good teacher explains things to people and teaches them with experience, not criticizes people and makes them feel dumb.
Conumdrum, I found out you were wrong about quite a few things. Maybe you shouldn't be acting like you are smart and everyone else is just young and dumb. Because you are basically prematurely ending peoples posts without them getting the "real" answers they need. Please don't take this wrong, it's just the way you speak to people is disrespectful, and you are straight up rude.



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a c 86 K Overclocking
April 12, 2010 3:23:19 PM

Thanks. Glad I'm making you spend time on this instead of focusing on your watercooling. We could consider this an personal attack and report it, or you can say you win, whatever.

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April 12, 2010 3:30:54 PM

Conumdrum said:
Thanks. Glad I'm making you spend time on this instead of focusing on your watercooling. We could consider this an personal attack and report it, or you can say you win, whatever.


You started attacking people first. All I did was ask for help in my post and I stated I was new to water cooling and you basically called me young and dumb. So..... It is what it is. Maybe you should just stop disrespecting people and use evidence in your posts instead of insults.

I'm not trying to attack you, i'm just pointing out your foolishness. To teach someone, you should provide evidence and teach the people why things are the way they are, not make them feel stupid because they are younger than you. Age is not an excuse to treat people bad, nor is it proof of your intelligence.

I am like a cat, if you corner me, I will attack. So don't corner me. Leave me alone, and ill leave you alone.

All I tried to do was get help. I never asked to be insulted.

By the way, if you ever do feel I am personally attacking you, then please do report it. I'm sure the administrators will see differently after reading all your posts.
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a b K Overclocking
April 12, 2010 4:13:21 PM

This thread has been locked by randomizer.
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April 12, 2010 10:26:41 PM

LOL
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a b K Overclocking
April 13, 2010 1:03:57 AM

Whew, reopened. I was afraid I wasn't going to be able to say this.

Like it or not, I've used the "you need to do research" line myself. Water and computer parts can lead to big disaster if you don't know what your doing. Urging people to spend more time reading/learning is a good idea if they obviously don't know what they are doing. And you shouldn't get upset with the person for telling you that you need to study more.

I hope the OP has found his answer as I couldn't blame the mods for locking. I get the feeling we'll need to lock this thread again. Way to many personal insults going on here.
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a b K Overclocking
April 13, 2010 1:20:18 AM

LOL! This thread was NEVER locked by a mod :lol: 

EPIC WIN on my part eh?
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April 13, 2010 1:32:02 AM

wait ur not a mod? then how did u close it????
ur magic!!!!!!!!!!!!
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April 13, 2010 8:00:44 AM

i felt it was an insult when he told me to do more research because i DID my research and found that more then a few WC fluids have EG in thier mixtures.

further more i wasnt asking wat was the best because like i said...my setup works just fine. it was more of wanting to see other peoples opinions of why they would use those expensive ass cooling fluids when distilled water and anti-freeze(certain brands that offer corrosion protection and lube) works just as fine.

and as far as biocide goes, ive been running my WC loop for quite a while now...at least 7 months and i dont notice any algae growth or slime anywhere in my system when i opened it up to put it in my new case last month.

finally...why not antifreeze?

-gives my loop a neon green color which i think is neat
-doesnt harm anything
-lubes the pump
-keeps corrosion from happening (i have brass fittings going into a copper/aluminum cpu block)
-gal of distilled water and gal of antifreeze for $5
-50% fan speed and i get 31C(house is 24C so its only 7c over ambient)
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a b K Overclocking
April 13, 2010 8:32:47 AM

i4yue said:
i felt it was an insult when he told me to do more research because i DID my research and found that more then a few WC fluids have EG in thier mixtures.

further more i wasnt asking wat was the best because like i said...my setup works just fine. it was more of wanting to see other peoples opinions of why they would use those expensive ass cooling fluids when distilled water and anti-freeze(certain brands that offer corrosion protection and lube) works just as fine.

and as far as biocide goes, ive been running my WC loop for quite a while now...at least 7 months and i dont notice any algae growth or slime anywhere in my system when i opened it up to put it in my new case last month.

finally...why not antifreeze?

-gives my loop a neon green color which i think is neat
-doesnt harm anything
-lubes the pump
-keeps corrosion from happening (i have brass fittings going into a copper/aluminum cpu block)
-gal of distilled water and gal of antifreeze for $5
-50% fan speed and i get 31C(house is 24C so its only 7c over ambient)


SEVEN DEGREES??? SEVEN DEGREES!!! YOU SHOULD BE DOWN TO SIX! THAT'S WHAT YOU GET FOR USING THIS JUNK!!!!

I thought I'd better say that as a joke before someone came in here and said it in a serious manner.
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a b K Overclocking
April 13, 2010 10:12:06 AM

Shadow703793 said:
This thread has been locked by randomizer.

^^
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