New Mid-Rage gaming desktop - let me know what you think!

[clayday]

Hey everyone, I've been gaming on my Inspiron 1520 with a 8600GT for over a year now and I've finally decided it's time to get a real gaming computer, a desktop. I don't need top of the line and I don't care about playing Crysis on maxed settings, but I do want to be able to play all of the new games on decent settings. This is the configuration that my friend has helped me put together. I wanted to post it here and let you give me your thoughts on what you do and do not like.

I do have two specific questions, though.

(1) There are tons of gtx260 cards on newegg. What is the difference between the MSI that I have picked and the other EVGA cards? My friend is a slight MSI fan boy, so I would love an unbiased opinion.

(2) Do I really need this ram? It's 8500 and my friend says it has great timing. But I've seen much cheaper ram. If it increases performance that much then I'll get it, I'm just wondering.

Specs:

Antec Nine Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
OCZ GameXStream OCZ700GXSSLI 700W ATX12V SLI Certified CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply - Retail
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8400 - Retail
MSI P7N SLI Platinum LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 750i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
MSI N260GTX-T2D896 OC GeForce GTX 260 896MB 448-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail
mushkin 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model 996599 - Retail
Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
Acer X223Wbd Black 22" 5ms Widescreen LCD Monitor - Retail
D-Link WDA-2320 PCI Rangebooster G Desktop Adapter - Retail
Antec 761345-75120-9 120mm Case Fan - Retail

subtotal: $1,150.14 (before rebates)

Let me know your thoughts! Thanks.

 

[shortstuff_mt]

Intel chips aren't really affected much by RAM speed. It's more important to keep the RAM and FSB at a 1:1 ratio. DDR2 800 will be fine unless you're planning a high overclock. Both of these kits have tight timings and low voltage:

mushkin 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146731 $49.99 - $20.00 MIR

G.SKILL PI Black 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231209 $49.99

The GTX 260 you listed is the old version. You want the new GTX 260 core 216. If you're not dead set on Nvidia you could pick up a 4870 1GB card instead. That way you're not stuck with a crappy Nvidia chipset motherboard. The Intel chipsets are much more stable.

GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3P LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128358&cm_sp=DailyDeal-_-13-128-358-_-Homepage&guid=28e23a828ae049b990b0a9ec48cbc426 $136.99 - $20.00 MIR

SAPPHIRE 100259-1GL Radeon HD 4870 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102801 $239.99 - $15.00 MIR

I think I'm the opposite of a MSI fanboy. I haven't really been impressed with them lately.

The Amps on that PSU aren't very impressive. You might want to check out some of these ones instead:

PC Power & Cooling S61EPS 610W Continuous @ 40°C EPS12V SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703005 $104.99 - $35.00 MIR

CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139005&Tpk=650TX $109.99 - $20.00 MIR

PC Power & Cooling S75QB 750W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI NVIDIA SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703009 $124.99 - $35.00 MIR

CORSAIR CMPSU-750TX 750W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139006&Tpk=750TX $119.99 - $20.00 MIR

I highly recommend the 750W PC Power & Cooling unit.

 

[clayday]

I had heard something similar to what you just said about RAM not affected much by intel, so I'll take your word for it and get the mushkin you suggested. Also I'll go for the 750W PC Power & Cooling unit.

I've seen the GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3P LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX floating around here alot and heard nothing but good things about it. The only question I have is about the video card.

Is the 1gb 4870 going to be as good as the gtx260? If so, then I think I'll go for everything you suggested. I am not a fanboy of either and don't have my heart set on either card atm. If someone could let me know what the performance difference between these two video cards is, that'd be great.

Thanks,
clayday

 

[dirtmountain]

The GTX260-216 and the HD4870 1GB are pretty much equal. Some games are better on one, other games are better on the other. Price/ manufacturer/warranty/support would be more important in almost all cases. I really like EVGA for their quality, warranty, support and step up program, MSI makes good products also, but the edge would go to EVGA. All of Shortstuffs suggestions are top notch, i'd much rather have the Gigabyte P45 motherboard then the MSI 750 board.

 

[WR2]

(1) Evga and XFX have lifetime warranties. MSI has a 1 year warranty. GTX 260 Core 216 and a lifetime warranty might be worth an extra $40-50 or so. XFX will even warranty its card through a 2nd owner.
(2) DDR2 800 CAS 4 RAM will perform as well as DDR2 1066 CAS 5. You can save enough on the RAM to cover the higher cost of the 260/216 GPU. DDR2 800 CAS4 RAM I noticed you didn't have an aftermarket CPU cooler so I'm guessing you're not after top OC'ing on the CPU which means DDR2 800 is a find choice.

The OCZ PSU is a good choice (for the price) IMO. It's 700watts & 56Amps +12v is in line with the PC P&C 750 (60a), Corsair 750TX (60a) and better than PC P&C 610 (49a). PC P&C and Corsair are higher quality units but OCZ is certainly OK in a mid-budget build.

Im neutral on the MB choice. I think BIOS updates have pretty much solved all early 750 MB issues. If you choose an AMD/ATI video card, or course, go with a P45 MB. A P45 would also be the choice if overclocking is important to you.

 

[clayday]

There are basically 3 issues that need to solve. Motherboard, RAM, and Videocard.

RAM - My friend Michael has suggested that I need this RAM over what has been suggested here:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146755
he said that it would beat the suggestions by WR2 and shortstuff_mt. He says the performance increase would be worth the money, but I am doubting him since no one agrees with him here.

Video Card - I've heard they are close in performance. From what I can see I am either going to get:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102801
OR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130400

From benchmarks that I've seen, it looks like the OC GTX260 wins them all. But no one seems to like the GTX260 here and that is kinda weird.


Motherboard - What video card I get basically determins what motherboard I get. Michael hates Gigabyte, but this board looks great and sounds great from what I've seen: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128358

But suppose I get the GTX260, what motherboard would you suggest over this one?

Thanks so much for the replies.

 

[pcgamer12]

Also, that Gigabyte motherboard has been getting great reviews (ExtremeTech has done a review giving it 5/5 stars). If it were me building a computer right now, I would choose that Gigabyte motherboard and GTX260 core 216 from XFX, if I didn't have enough money for Core i7.

Everybody's advice here is really good.

I wanted to add: If you game at all, RAM speed doesn't matter very much. It's quantity over quality, I would say. Get at least 4GB, or 3GB if using a Core i7 build.
You really want to get the best GPU you can, then look for a CPU and motherboard for that GPU. Try to balance those out.

Does Michael hate Gigabyte for no reason? I lol'd.

 

[clayday]

Also, that Gigabyte motherboard has been getting great reviews (ExtremeTech has done a review giving it 10 stars). If it were me building a computer right now, I would choose that Gigabyte motherboard and GTX260 core 216 from XFX, if I didn't have enough money for Core i7.

Everybody's advice here is really good.

The Gigabyte would work with the GTX260?

 

[pcgamer12]

Here are some links to reviews and discussions on that Gigabyte motherboard:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2335930,00.asp

http://discuss.extremetech.com/forums/1004426266/ShowPost.aspx

 

[clayday]

Perfectly, but you just won't be able to SLI them (use two in sync with up to 100% performance scaling). The Gigabyte motherboard supports CrossFire which is ATI's multi-gpu technology.

Okay, I was under the impression that I needed a nvidia chipset motherboard if I chose a nvidia gpu.



And my apologies. I gave you a thumbs down accidentally when trying to quote you. My bad I'll try and change that to thumbs up. lol

 

[pcgamer12]

Do you have an OS for this build? You'll need one like Windows Vista or XP if you want to do some real gaming. Newegg sells OEM versions for a lot cheaper than retail. Remember to get the 64-bit versions to maximize the RAM your OS can use. 32-bit versions use up to 4GB, but some of that space is taken by VRAM (Video RAM), BIOS, and caches.

 

[clayday]

Okay, I see. Thanks.

What if I wanted to do SLI in the future, what motherboard would you recommend then?

I'm still stuck between the 4870 and the GTX260. Such a tough decision.
My friend Michael keeps telling me that nvidia is better because they have physx and ati doesn't? :-/


EDIT: I plan on using Vista 64 bit most likely. I was planning on getting it from newegg.

 

[billiardicus]

Okay, I see. Thanks.

What if I wanted to do SLI in the future, what motherboard would you recommend then?

I'm still stuck between the 4870 and the GTX260. Such a tough decision.
My friend Michael keeps telling me that nvidia is better because they have physx and ati doesn't? :-/


EDIT: I plan on using Vista 64 bit most likely. I was planning on getting it from newegg.

If you want a solid gaming machine, and you're not dying to play crysis on max, etc, then I wouldn't bother with SLI or crossfire. Here's why:

1. 2 cards obviously cost twice as much. But they SELDOM deliver twice the performance. You will only get performance increases in high resolutions (1920x1200 +, and with lots of AA, etc turned on. Even then, the increases are small often single digit percentages. Sometimes there's no increase at all, and often there's a performance decrease. Yes, there are a FEW games that will see a huge increase, but unless you're specifically building a PC to run that game, I think SLI and crossfire are a waste of money for the bang/buck gamer.

2. If you run SLI/Crossfire you have to buy more expensive mobo's that support them. If you want to run SLI, you have to get Nvidia's miserable chipset that won't overclock cpu's nearly as well. For this reason alone, SLI is a bad choice for everyone in my opinion. Only Crossfire is worth considering.

3. If you want to run SLI/Crossfire you have to buy a more powerful and expensive powersupply.

SLI/Crossfire are for enthusiasts who really aren't concerned about price or bank/buck. If you don't have at least a 24" Monitor, there's absolutely no reason to event think about it.

Thats my honest opinion.

 

[clayday]

If you want a solid gaming machine, and you're not dying to play crysis on max, etc, then I wouldn't bother with SLI or crossfire. Here's why:

1. 2 cards obviously cost twice as much. But they SELDOM deliver twice the performance. You will only get performance increases in high resolutions (1920x1200 +, and with lots of AA, etc turned on. Even then, the increases are small often single digit percentages. Sometimes there's no increase at all, and often there's a performance decrease. Yes, there are a FEW games that will see a huge increase, but unless you're specifically building a PC to run that game, I think SLI and crossfire are a waste of money for the bang/buck gamer.

2. If you run SLI/Crossfire you have to buy more expensive mobo's that support them. If you want to run SLI, you have to get Nvidia's miserable chipset that won't overclock cpu's nearly as well. For this reason alone, SLI is a bad choice for everyone in my opinion. Only Crossfire is worth considering.

3. If you want to run SLI/Crossfire you have to buy a more powerful and expensive powersupply.

SLI/Crossfire are for enthusiasts who really aren't concerned about price or bank/buck. If you don't have at least a 24" Monitor, there's absolutely no reason to event think about it.

Thats my honest opinion.

Good points. I haven't thought about some of that. Honestly by the time I have money to purchase another video card, better single cards will be out anyways. So I'll forget the SLI/CF thing.

After reading several articles (including this one: http://techgage.com/article/ati_hd_4870_1gb_vs_nvidia_gtx_260216_896mb/ ), I think I'll go for the GTX260.

I guess it comes down to this: (1) what motherboard should I choose for the GTX260?

My friend keeps telling me it's important to get an nvidia motherboard so I can control the card from the bios and use ntune and such. This board looks great except it's not nvidia... idk if that matters though. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128358

(2) Does this card look like the right one?

Again, I really appreciate the quick responses I'm getting here.

 

[elerick]

Just my 2 cents.

what shortstuff said is dead on balls accurate.

the intel chipset platform is much more stable. (but you get stuck with crossfire not sli)

that being said pc power and cooling, fsp, or corsair are fantastic power supplies.

"The GTX260-216 and the HD4870 1GB are pretty much equal. Some games are better on one, other games are better on the other." - Accurate

In the P4 days I used corsair XMS 2-2-2-4 @ 400mhz memory. That was their hayday, and their quality has gone down since.

Mushkin is my new memory of choice. I had 4-5-4-11 @ 800 Mhz and it is amazing. I quickly found that my spending $250 for 2 x 1Gb kit back in 2006 was a huge waste of money. Grab the cheap stuff if you want to save money. Grab mushkin if you want the quality.

I think newegg is having a huge sale on Asus displays for christmas. I don't know the quality but if it is manufactured by them it should be good stuff. Certainly higher end than an Acer.

If were entirely up to me. I'd change gears save all the money I could and go with an i7 setup. Come January the memory wont set you back 150 and the performance will last you an extra year. I know some would flame me, its not faster for gaming. True, but a computer isn't just for gaming. And the mainstream stuff isn't due until march (I noticed your getting 8400 mainstreamm processor)

just a few ideas.

 

[WR2]

He says the performance increase would be worth the money

The differences between 1066/CAS5 and 800/CAS4 tends to look like this for real world tasks. A "free" performance increase of OC'ing the CPU and/or the GPU gives you a MUCH better performance "bump-up" that going to 1066 RAM.

 

[kelfen]

ATI has havok which blizzard is going to support in dioblo 3 going to use havok physics engine

 

[kelfen]

go intel board don't !@#$ over with nvidia motherboard plus you might as well get x58 if you go sli

 

[WR2]

elerick touched on a good point and it might take some pressure off you - you might see some really good savings popping up on/after 26 Dec.

 

[shortstuff_mt]

I'd say the reason you get the impression that no-one likes the GTX 260 core 216 GPU here is because it forces you to use an Nvidia chipset motherboard if you want the option of SLI in the future. The GTX 260 core 216 is a great card, but so is the 4870 1GB. The cards are so close in performance most people would rather go with the 4870 1GB card. That's not because they think it's a better card, but because that way they can use a superior Intel chipset motherboard and still have the option of adding another GPU in the future since the P45 chipset supports crossfire.

It sounds like your friend is a pretty close-minded fanboy.

If you've decided to throw out the SLI/crossfire possibility, I'd pair up the GTX 260 core 216 with the Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3R. I know your friend will scoff at that, but the fact is that Intel chipsets are superior to Nvidia chipsets no matter what he says. I've had great luck with Gigabyte boards lately. The UD3 series are excellent boards that consistently get great reviews.

 

[WR2]

I just noticed the Mushkin RAM you linked was actually DDR2 1000 CAS5.
So here is another benchmark for 1000 CAS5 vs 800 CAS4


The choices you're looking at are so close in performance that it almost doesn't matter which you choose.

 

[clayday]

Excellent responses, especially shortstuff_m. You seem very knowledgeable and that makes perfect sense... now I realize why it seems everyone prefers ATI.

Last two questions:

1. I won't lose any performance by going with the intel motherboard and gtx260, right?
2. After seeing elerick's comment, should I go with another LCD? This one seems cheap and is not full HD resolution. I don't wanna spend too much more money, but I'm willing if there is something better for slightly more.


Here's my semi-final build:

Changes: Chose the gigabyte motherboard, cheaper ram, better PSU, and updated GPU.

$110 - Antec 900 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129021
$124 - (-$35) e750W PCP&C - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703009
$165 - Core2Duo E8400 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037
$50 - (-20) 4gb mushkin - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146731
$137 - Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3R (-20) - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128358
$260 - EVGA Sperclocked 260 / 216 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130400
$75 - WD640 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136218
$170 - 22" LCD Acer - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009145
$9 - Mouse - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104026
$30 - Wireless - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833127075
$10 - Fan - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835209005

SubTotal: $1140 (before rebates and shipping)

Let me know if you have any thoughts! I think I'll purchase everything this evening.

 

[shortstuff_mt]

That's a nice build! If you're looking for full 1080 resolution you could check out these new 21.5" monitors that have 1920x1080 resolutions:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010190020%201301919996%201309822582%201109917843&name=1920%20x%201080


Edit: The GTX 260 core 216 will run at the same speed whether it's running on an Intel chipset or Nvidia chipset motherboard. The Intel chipset will just be more stable.

 

[WR2]

Already have a DVD burner? With your hardware and the Antec 900 case another fan really isnt necessary. How about a USB flash drive for file backup? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233037

Also with the GTX 260 single card you can easily step down a size in PSU. Corsair 550VX would be plenty, or Corsair 650TX.

 

[clayday]

I have an old LiteON EIDE DVD burner I'm going to use and I just purcahsed a 16GB Cruzer on BlackFriday from OfficeDepot.

I think I do want full HD. Might as well. What is the difference between these two:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236053
AND
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236051

Also I've heard Dell's are very nice:
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=320-7438

I'd say I don't want to spend more than $250 on the monitor, though.