Core i7 Project --- Suggestions, Comments, Rants, Put-downs, welcome

[skander]

Hello All,

I'm new to this forum but not Tom's Hardware. I remember this site helping me put together a P4 3.0GHz, Asus P4P, 1 Gig mem, ATI Radeon 9800 Pro machine in the summer of 2004. I type on that machine nearly unchanged, now.

I've lost the last week of life on search engines, forums, review sites, vendor sites, etc. feverishly searching out the most machine for a budget concsience consumer. Being a poor student who gets deeper into debt by the day, yet whose hobby remains those hour-melting games (confounded things that push hardware to infinite heights). Alas two important things stand out: Performance + Budget.
To that end, the fruits of my research have yielded the following.

Prices as of 1 AM, Jan 14, 2009

Core i7-920 2.66 GHz -- $280 w/ combo
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115202

Gigabyte GA-EX58-UDR3 -- $185 AR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128375

G-Skill (3 x 1G) kit DDR3 (1333) -- $85
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231222

Asus EAH4850 Radeon HD 4850 512MB (overclock) -- $135 AR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121272

Corsair CMPSU-750TX (750 Watt) -- $105 AR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139006

Price Tag: $790

I have decided to keep by WDC 200Gig--7200 RPM--HDD, my Sceptre 20.1' monitor, and my Thermaltake Armor Tower case.

The absolute most important question. Yes that Gigabyte mobo is an unbelievalbe deal, but do those inherent limitations: 4 mem slots (not 6), and 1 PCI-e at x16 (not 2) hinder me irreparably before the next 4 or so years?

Am I better served spending an extra $60 going with a 3 x 2G kit of memory, especially since I'll probably wait for Windows 7 to go 64 bit OS. For that matter should I spend an extra $5 for the Corsair XMS3 (3 x 1G) kit or has G-Skill built a comparable reputation.

I'm convinced that a Radeon HD 4850 is the best video card, value-wise. In that case will the 750 Watt PSU ably support that card? Will it support two?

If I plan NOT to overclock this Core i7 for at least another year, does the stock Intel CPU cooler do the job or is the after-market cooler still necessary?

Any and all comments are appreciated.

 

[Lurker87]

Yes, that PSU will easily hold a 4850. It could even control 4870s in crossfire. It is a very, very well made PSU. Also, exactly which case is that? If you are going i7, expect some heat, so good airflow in a roomy case should be a priority.

 

[skander]

Lurker87,

It is the Thermaltake Armor --- VA8000BWS --- Supertower

- 3 cooling fans (Bottom front intake, Top back exhaust, Top exhaust)
- 11 Drive bays
- 16.2 Kg case

Its this one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133154

Thanks for the help.

 

[Proximon]

The board looks to have dual X16 PCI-E. I can't imagine they would cut that, as it's inherent in the chipset.

You should, however, get 6GB of RAM. 3 is not enough and you would have to throw it away to get 6 later.

 

[merlinbadman]

I agree with the previous poster, get 6gb ram now since you cant fix extra later.

There arnt many coolers for LGA1366 yet, the 2 or 3 that are available are quite expensive. I wanted a new cooler as well, but will wait untill others are released.

 

[Akebono 98]

I see your tack here.

In answer to your key question, the best simple upgrade you can do to an old computer is to add RAM, IMO, so just make sure you factor this in.

The beauty of it is that if you buy 3x2 with 6 slots, then you can just buy an additional set when money allows and pop it in. Your initial investment is not wasted. If you buy 3x1, that's good too because you can pop in another 3x1, provided you have 6 RAM slots.

However, with the UD3R mobo, despite the great deal you're getting today, you can only upgrade memory buy tossing out your existing set of RAM if you buy 3x1. Therefore, the price difference between UD3R and UD4P should also reflect the wasted cost of your original RAM sticks.

On a budget, I could live with all of the deficiencies of the UD3R that I wrote about in the other thread--e.g. limit yourself to 2 ATI cards in Crossfire. However, the lack of RAM expandability would seem to be imprudent, when considering the "budget" equation.

Let's make an educated guess about how much it would cost to buy 3x2 in the future if you ever need to upgrade RAM. Let's say DDR3 prices halve in 3 years and 3x2 costs $85, the same as your current 3x1. Then you've paid $85 today and then $85 in the future (worth, say $67 today by discounting at 8%). 85+67=152, about the price of inexpensive 3x2 today (and my recommendation below).

Again, the time value of money makes you indifferent, so if you don't need it, then just buy the 3x1 today and keep your money in the bank. You're running WinXP now and the best time to upgrade to Win7 is probably after SP1--maybe 2 years from now? Add more RAM then.

Depending on use, though, if you buy 3x2 today and then another 3x2 in the future, then you've not wasted your $150 today and get the full use of 12 GB in the future, and not just 6GB. The question really becomes whether or not you need the extra physical memory in the use of your computer. If you heavily multitask and work with large files, then yes it's worth getting 3x2 and 6 slots because you really need it.

Because you're planning on jumping up to Win7, then you should plan for extra system resource needs because this is a lousy time to buy an i7 rig, when the future is a little cloudy. However, it is always the case that resource needs increase over time.

By the way, the UD3R mobo can run 2 PCIe 2.0 slots in full x16, which means you can run up to two 4870x2 cards in Quadfire without a problem. This mobo just lacks the third video slot.

But if you've got your heart set on the UD3R mobo for its exceptional value, then maybe the better memory solution (especially if you don't want to upgrade RAM ever, like in your OP) is to run dual channel 2x2, so that you at least have 1 more GB of RAM over 3x1.


To help you out further, here are some suggestions on slightly different parts:

PSU: You will not find a better value than this PCP&C 750W (link here) for $80 after MIR, provided that you can live with the red color through your transparent side panel. This would be good for powering up to two 4870s in Crossfire and overclocking your i7 in the future.

RAM: Try this set of 3x2 G.Skill DDR3-1333 at CL7 for $154: link here. G.Skill is excellent value, and generally a great overclocking RAM for gamers.

Video Card: Go with 1GB video RAM, as the larger frame buffer will help if you move to a higher resolution later, and also if you ever Crossfire at high res. Here's a Sapphire 4850 1GB for $157 after MIR. The price difference is also quite small over the 512MB version.

Mobo/CPU: The current Newegg combo deal for the Gigabyte EX58-UD4P (my recommendation) and i7 920 is $535.

Total for my parts listed above comes out at $927, which is only $137 above yours and has much better future expandability, IMO, especially if you feel that you will need the larger quantity of RAM (and you will).


The stock cooler is fine if you don't OC for now. Just buy the cooler later, but remember that you will have to dismount the mobo to install a backplate.

However, note that the actual best value/performance deal out there for you is simply to wait 2-3 months before jumping to i7, as prices will likely improve a bit. If nothing else, you might be able to at least get the UD4P mobo for a better price, adding to your potential expandability over the long-term. If you're managing on your old rig now, then you should be able to stretch for just a little longer.

I think that my bottom line for investing in the i7 as a platform is that over the long-term, you should plan for maximum expandability. Otherwise, how is it really that much better than the Core 2 Quad platform?

 

[skander]

Akebono 98,

Thanks for the wonderful advice. You raise up very interesting arguments for future expandability.

Just priced your modifications to my set up and it came to +$122 (saving $20 on the PSU sure helped, and I've read PCP+C makes great PSUs). Certainly reasonable for Mobo expandability and twice the RAM (of which I get to keep in a later upgrade).

As it stands now:

Core i7-920: $275 w/ combo
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115202

Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD4P: $240 AR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128374

PCP+C S75CF (750W): $85 AR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341011

G-Skill (3 x 2G), DDR3 (1333) Cas: 7: $155
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231230

Sapphire Radeon HD4850, 1G: $157 AR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102802

Price Tag: $912

I'd like to throw this out to the community, mostly I'm curious about opinions. Given the choice would you prefer:

1) The inital build at the top: $790 (note: Now that Asus GPU has gone out of stock)

2) This revised build: $912

Basically is twice the memory and more versatile Mobo worth $122 in today's hardware climate?

-----------------
Also Akebono98, do you really believe the prices will come down noticeably in the next couple of months. If I may save ~$30 or so, the wait wouldn't be worth it. Once again, thanks for your help.

 

[Proximon]

The upgrades seem worthwhile, but be aware that the entire build is a bit heavy on the processing side and a bit light on the FPS, over all. You'll want to add a second 4850 at some point.

If you came to me and said, "What is the best gaming machine I can build for $1000.00" it would not have been an i7. Likely, it would have been an E8500 or Q9550, P45 MB, 4GB RAM, and a 4850X2 or GTX 280.

This build has a brighter future though.

 

[skander]

Thanks Proximon. BTW you're general guide was an excellent read and very well done.

Two questions I just thought of:

Do video cards have to be identical in order to support crossfire? Do they both have to be single-GPU or same RV###? For example if I buy a HD 4850 now, and in a year decided to buy a HD 4870x2 for the other slot, will they crossfire?

The other question goes for the memory. If a 3 x 2G kit is already installed, will a 3 x 3G kit work in the future?

Many thanks.

 

[Proximon]

it's not well tested, but what I hear is yes, although you will only get the slowest card crossfire. So, adding a 4870 to a 4850 would result in the same crossfire performance as two 4850s.

 

[Proximon]

You should be able to put different size RAM sticks in the two channels, but I don't know what the X58 chipset and i7 will do yet. Would the two sets need to be the same voltage and timings? I don't know.

 

[Akebono 98]

Also Akebono98, do you really believe the prices will come down noticeably in the next couple of months. If I may save ~$30 or so, the wait wouldn't be worth it. Once again, thanks for your help.

You're more than welcome--the pleasure is mine!

GTX 285 is coming out tomorrow (Thursday). Intel has announced price cuts to Core 2 Quad and Core 2 Duo for next week. Therefore, the best window of opportunity would probably be in about two weeks, when prices for CPUs and GPUs firm up in response to these two events. That's probably just about right for your needs. After that, we're into a whole new ball game.

And I hear ya--it's hard to wait...

 

[Akebono 98]

An even better deal on the PCP&C red 750 watter: link. It's going for $65 after MIR at Amazon.

 

[foolycooly]

An even better deal on the PCP&C red 750 watter: link. It's going for $65 after MIR at Amazon.

wow great find!

 

[Akebono 98]

@Foolycooly: Can't take credit for that one--only saw it on a thread where I replied. The finder is actually "AirBabed".

 

[skander]

I need to order a book for school from Amazon anyway, today, might as well add the Power Supply. Can't imagine a quality 750 Watt PSU going for cheaper. Great find!

I'll definitely hold out from some price shifts on the rest. I'm really wondering how those GeForce 9800 GTX+ change in response to the GTX 285 release today.

 

[Akebono 98]

The 9800 GTX+ is a very good value for driving your 20" monitor if you're a nVidia kind of guy, and then a pair in SLI would be a great future expansion for you. However, then you'd be stuck with getting the UD4P mobo, in which case you've answered your own thread!

Seriously, though, between the 4850 and the 9800 GTX+, here's a chance to get a video card with true dual slot cooling--with the rear exhaust. Most 4850s don't have this little nicety. Get an eVGA or XFX with a lifetime warranty and then you'll be set for a long time...

 

[Proximon]

XFX is making a dual slot cooled 4850 now

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150337&Tpk=4850

 

[Akebono 98]

+1

Sweet deal, have your cake and eat it too--Proximon rules!!!

 

[skander]

Looks like a good product. Although I'd be paying $12 more for a card with half the video memory, 512 MB instead of the Sapphire 1G. Previously we discussed the extra buffer helps should I get a bigger monitor later and play at higher resolutions.

Also it seems that particular brand of G-Skill memory, the blue, low latency (3 x 2G) kit had some Quality Assurance problems. Nearly half the reviewers received 1G Dimms in the packaging rather than 2G. A little disconcerting . . . :-D

 

[Proximon]

Yes I don't pay too much attention to user reviews but it's pretty clear in that case. I'm sure G.Skill had an accident there, and I imagine it's all fixed. The only question is if all the bad kits are gone from the channel now.

Did you see this review?
http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=803
They only used one GTX 280 so the results may be somewhat limited.

 

[Akebono 98]

Aw shucks, and here I thought that Proximon unearthed this great nVidia wannabe video card... well it's still a great video card.

From a value perspective, though, I guess that it's pretty hard to beat the Sapphire 4850 1GB, which probably still wins out in your case because:

i) you've got a Thermaltake Armor case, which covers off the cooling aspects; and

ii) it still has a 2 year warranty, in which time most things that could go wrong would probably have shown up.

There aren't too many 9800GTX+ 1GB cards out, and they all cost a bit more too.


It's too bad that G.Skill's great product got messed up by a QA problem. Unfortunately, there's nothing that even comes close in terms of performance for value here. At least the company is clearly aware of the problem and hopefully it will have been fixed by the time you order yours, should you ultimately decide to go with them. I still think that it's worth the risk, however, if you've got access to another computer and can afford the unexpected downtime. This type of product is a little too hard to ignore, IMO.


I also sense a bit of "early adopter risk" here.

 

[Proximon]

Yeah lifetime warranties on computer parts sound nice, but of course after two or three years the parts aren't worth the cost of shipping anyway.

 

[Akebono 98]

+1

 

[skander]

Just saw some news on the upcoming Intel price drops. Looks like its only for the Core 2 Quad and Core 2 Duo series'.

In fact some people say since AMD's Phenom II don't even compete with Core i7, Intel may increase the prices for those processors since they pretty much have no competition performance-wise for a good while.

More than likely Intel will just release the Core i5 (a gimped i7) later this year at a lower price point rather than reducing the prices of i7. Just some thoughts . . .