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Inquirer: Intel vs AMD multicore battle looms

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a b à CPUs
April 30, 2009 8:02:30 PM

From http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/opinion/989/1051989...:

Quote:
AMD CELEBRATED its Opteron chip's sixth birthday in a fitting way by accelerating the six-core Istanbul release to June, and by announcing the 12-core total of two Istanbul dies in one Magny-Cours package to come out half a year later.

At the same time, Intel's single die eight-core, 16-thread Beckton Nehalem EX should be out a little before Magny-Cours, followed by native 32nm six-core Westmere DP chips early next year.

How well will they stand up against each other? Well, core for core and clock for clock, Istanbul will still be behind Nehalem in most cases, whether you look at CPU, cache or memory bound benchmarks. Nehalem only seems to be beaten clock for clock by the older Penryn in some tight loops and cryptography jobs, for now.

Looks like that, except for HT Assist in NUMA, there are no other Istanbul improvements over the Shanghai save for the additional two cores - even the L3 cache is still at 6 MB, a capacity that may turn out to be a tad too tight for six cores to share.

April 30, 2009 9:05:41 PM

As of late AMD find it self between a rock and a hard place,
and it don't seem to be getting any better for them in the
future either.
a b à CPUs
April 30, 2009 9:39:00 PM

No point in worrying about what might be, could be, should be. It would be nice if there were 6 core CPUs that I could use on my AM2+ board, but I'm thinking AMD will drop the DDR2 support needed once they move past quad core. We'll see what's out when I upgrade my system next, which won't be till the DX11 cards are out. Till then I'm not too worried about it.
Related resources
a b à CPUs
April 30, 2009 10:25:15 PM

Actually these are server CPUs, except for the 32nm Westmere which has been confirmed as dropping into a 1366 socket with a BIOS update.

I'd agree that right now, 6 cores is overkill for desktop :)  - software has a lo-o-o-ong way to go to catch up to hardware.

AMD just needs to wait out the economy and then bet the bank with Bulldozer, where they need to catch up or surpass Intel in IPC. Intel will be competing with SandyBridge by then so that's what AMD needs to aim at, not Nehalem.
April 30, 2009 11:38:48 PM

+1 about six cores being too much. At the moment i barely use any programs that utilise all four of my current cores! Then again, more is always better. Even if it is just for bragging rights :D 
May 1, 2009 1:17:50 AM

No way, the Ghz race is giving way to a multi-core race?!?!?
May 1, 2009 3:26:56 AM

megamanx00 said:
No point in worrying about what might be, could be, should be. It would be nice if there were 6 core CPUs that I could use on my AM2+ board, but I'm thinking AMD will drop the DDR2 support needed once they move past quad core. We'll see what's out when I upgrade my system next, which won't be till the DX11 cards are out. Till then I'm not too worried about it.


6 core AMD's should be a drop in for any 2000 or 8000 series opteron board ( socket 1207 ) with a bios update. I know all mine will support it. 12 core looks like the switching point for now.
a b à CPUs
May 1, 2009 3:48:39 AM

Holy ballz...the i7 and i5 will be obsolete faster than graphics cards...
May 1, 2009 7:29:24 AM

Ill buy westmere it beats i7 LOL
a c 172 à CPUs
May 1, 2009 8:04:30 AM

B-Unit said:
No way, the Ghz race is giving way to a multi-core race?!?!?

The GHz race really ended when Intel moved from the netburst P4 EE's to the C2 CPU's.
a b à CPUs
May 1, 2009 8:08:02 AM

And I thought my E6600 had alot of cores.
a b à CPUs
May 1, 2009 9:39:03 AM

B-Unit said:
No way, the Ghz race is giving way to a multi-core race?!?!?


Next will be cache!
a b à CPUs
May 1, 2009 9:55:32 AM

mi1ez said:
Next will be cache!

With 20 different levels.
a b à CPUs
May 1, 2009 12:25:28 PM

randomizer said:
With 20 different levels.


Counter 11 core rush attack with level 17 cache!
May 1, 2009 1:39:40 PM

jsc said:
The GHz race really ended when Intel moved from the netburst P4 EE's to the C2 CPU's.


/Facepalm

Thats about the same time they started using dual instead of single core isnt it..

Its called sarcasm. This isnt news, its been happening for like 3+ years.
a b à CPUs
May 1, 2009 2:04:59 PM

The point is moot since an overclocked dual like an E8400 / E8500 running at 4Ghz wipes the floor with any quad on most of the older games and only a few are even reasonably optimosed for more than two cores at present.

My point above was to ask ... not assert.

As that still a fair comment now ??

/waits for someone clever to post some comparisons to look at.
May 1, 2009 2:54:47 PM

Reynod said:
The point is moot since an overclocked dual like an E8400 / E8500 running at 4Ghz wipes the floor with any quad on most of the older games and only a few are even reasonably optimosed for more than two cores at present.

My point above was to ask ... not assert.

As that still a fair comment now ??

/waits for someone clever to post some comparisons to look at.


BS, OC the quad to 4Ghz and they perform the same. Im tired of this school of thought that says quads are magicly 'slower'. Clock-for-clock there the same damn chip.
a b à CPUs
May 1, 2009 3:34:52 PM

well, as a programmer, i find it hard to break up a program into enough threads to satisfy a quad core (unless it is math related, that is usually easy)
May 1, 2009 3:45:53 PM

Wait, AMD's making a double cheeseburger? I thought monolithic was the best...

Quote:
announcing the 12-core total of two Istanbul dies in one Magny-Cours package to come out half a year later.
May 1, 2009 4:30:51 PM

TechnologyCoordinator said:
Wait, AMD's making a double cheeseburger? I thought monolithic was the best...

Quote:
announcing the 12-core total of two Istanbul dies in one Magny-Cours package to come out half a year later.



touche' my friend touche'.
a b à CPUs
May 1, 2009 6:34:25 PM

TechnologyCoordinator said:
Wait, AMD's making a double cheeseburger? I thought monolithic was the best...

Quote:
announcing the 12-core total of two Istanbul dies in one Magny-Cours package to come out half a year later.


ROFL! Where's Thunderpants now that we need to poke fun at him?

I'd guess Intel will be announcing triple cripples for sale next :) 
May 1, 2009 6:49:54 PM

1. This is a server CPU. Nothing to do with gaming or desktop.
2. Original Opterons were so much superior to Netburst P4s & that people using them for gaming & desktop just didn't realize its deficiencies.
3. i7 is in fact Opteron of intel. Just in the wake of the economical situation, the platform switch to i7 based servers is far too high for any IT manager to justify.
4. A drop in replacement of the existing Opteron park makes sure that AMD can continue selling server CPUs, at least to the existing customers with much TCO than intel can now.
5. In server programs, the multiple threads are much more cache coherent than desktop equivalents, negating need for higher amount of cache. (for servers throughput is more important than how fast it does. - large cache is good for speeding up large operations with distinct data sets. For many small similar operations going on, a small cache is also sufficiant. - Think about lots of web requests a web server should process. All the requests are served by same piece of code with difference only in some of the data part, code being the same.)
6. Intel's double cheeseburger & AMD's double cheeseburger are different in all ways. Intel version shared the same FSB, bottlenecking the memory. AMD's version still has seperate IMC for each core, thus, that's the reason it needs a change in socket. In fact, it is two sockets combined in one pack.
7. Neither of the CPUs mentioned in OP is a good CPU for gaming or desktop usage.
a b à CPUs
May 1, 2009 11:44:50 PM

duzcizgi said:
1. This is a server CPU. Nothing to do with gaming or desktop.
2. Original Opterons were so much superior to Netburst P4s & that people using them for gaming & desktop just didn't realize its deficiencies.
3. i7 is in fact Opteron of intel. Just in the wake of the economical situation, the platform switch to i7 based servers is far too high for any IT manager to justify.
4. A drop in replacement of the existing Opteron park makes sure that AMD can continue selling server CPUs, at least to the existing customers with much TCO than intel can now.
5. In server programs, the multiple threads are much more cache coherent than desktop equivalents, negating need for higher amount of cache. (for servers throughput is more important than how fast it does. - large cache is good for speeding up large operations with distinct data sets. For many small similar operations going on, a small cache is also sufficiant. - Think about lots of web requests a web server should process. All the requests are served by same piece of code with difference only in some of the data part, code being the same.)
6. Intel's double cheeseburger & AMD's double cheeseburger are different in all ways. Intel version shared the same FSB, bottlenecking the memory. AMD's version still has seperate IMC for each core, thus, that's the reason it needs a change in socket. In fact, it is two sockets combined in one pack.
7. Neither of the CPUs mentioned in OP is a good CPU for gaming or desktop usage.


1, 2 - I think we all realized that - we're just having some fun fanning the fanbois flames.
3 - Dunno about that - Intel was already eating AMD's lunch in 2P, and Nehalem will only speed that up. Yes the economy is bad and IT admins cautious, but if a 2P Xeon can replace a 4P Opteron system with equal performance, I'd think the choice would be obvious when upgrading. Why do you think AMD is rushing the 6-core Istanbul's out next month?
4 - Intel will also use drop-in upgrades for the 32nm Westmere 6-core CPUs, both for DT and 2P:

Quote:
Intel will have its 32nm Westmere shrink in the DP race too, sometime in early to mid-2010 as well. Besides the expected Gulftown six-core per die DP versions with both core improvements and 50 per cent cache increase to 12 MB, there are also expected to be memory and QPI improvements.

5 - As shown in the Anandtech article on Nehalem EP:

Quote:
The K10 architecture of Shanghai is a well rounded architecture, but one that misses really crucial weapons to keep up with the Nehalem:
Simultaneous Hyperthreading offers performance boost that IPC Improvements are not capable of delivering (up to 45%!).

Memory latency. Nehalem's memory latency is up to 40% lower
Memory bandwidth: 3 channels is complete overkill for desktop apps, but it does wonders for many HPC and in a lesser degree server applications.

a really aggressive integer engine

6 - FSB bottlenecking basically showed up in 4P and higher. Besides, Nehalem and Westmere use QPI.
7 - Agreed, but mainly due to their being expensive.

a b à CPUs
May 2, 2009 12:50:28 AM

TechnologyCoordinator said:
Wait, AMD's making a double cheeseburger? I thought monolithic was the best...

He lives!
a b à CPUs
May 2, 2009 1:17:29 AM

randomizer said:
It couldn't have gone any other way.


What are you saying, stocks can't go down?
a b à CPUs
May 2, 2009 1:29:20 AM

AMD's stock doesn't have much room to go down :lol: 
a b à CPUs
May 2, 2009 1:49:02 AM

jennyh said:
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/fds/hi/business/mark...

Fazers, how do you feel about AMD's stock price hitting it's highest level in months?


LOL - what Randomizer said :) .

I believe much of AMD's stock is held by institutional investors and I think they are speculating that with the UAE deal cash infusion, plus AMD spinning off part of the ATI purchase debt to GF, AMD may be well-positioned when the economy rebounds. In other words, it is only loosely correlated with the current strength of their product offerings, and probably reacts more to AMD press releases and design wins and roadmaps. But then I am no expert at analyzing the stock market - if I were, I'd be filthy rich and jetting around partying instead of posting here on Tom's :D .

Intel's stock has been rising pretty well lately too. Probably the investors want to get in near the perceived bottom so that they can ride the elevator as high as it'll go.

Ordinary investors who may have bailed out of the stock market after suffering huge losses may be jumping back in as well - there's an interesting article on MSN Money about how those investors are regretting getting out - buying high and selling low - and are determined to recoup their losses to the point of exercising poor judgment. OTOH, as the article goes on to state - bull markets usually start when things stink the worse:

Quote:
Strangely enough, veterans will tell you this is actually how most bull cycles start: in disbelief and rage. You might think bear markets end when the economy begins to improve in a pervasive way and big companies start to report better earnings. But that's a fantasy, a children's fable. Just as bear markets begin when everything is great, bull markets begin when everything stinks.


http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/SuperMod...
a b à CPUs
May 2, 2009 1:53:25 AM

randomizer said:
AMD's stock doesn't have much room to go down :lol: 


It's got plenty of room to go down. It was $2.00 8 weeks ago. Now it's almost scraping $4.00. It does seem to have an overall upward trend recently, I wonder why that is?
a b à CPUs
May 2, 2009 1:55:19 AM

Quote:
LOL - what Randomizer said :) .

I believe much of AMD's stock is held by institutional investors and I think they are speculating that with the UAE deal cash infusion, plus AMD spinning off part of the ATI purchase debt to GF, AMD may be well-positioned when the economy rebounds. In other words, it is only loosely correlated with the current strength of their product offerings, and probably reacts more to AMD press releases and design wins and roadmaps. But then I am no expert at analyzing the stock market - if I were, I'd be filthy rich and jetting around partying instead of posting here on Tom's :D .


Well it's clear you are no expert at analyzing the stock market fazers, you've been banging the same drum over AMD's demise for the past year lol.
a b à CPUs
May 2, 2009 2:13:48 AM

jennyh said:
It's got plenty of room to go down. It was $2.00 8 weeks ago. Now it's almost scraping $4.00. It does seem to have an overall upward trend recently, I wonder why that is?

Because $2 is already too low :kaola: 
a c 127 à CPUs
a b À AMD
May 2, 2009 8:01:21 AM

jennyh said:
It's got plenty of room to go down. It was $2.00 8 weeks ago. Now it's almost scraping $4.00. It does seem to have an overall upward trend recently, I wonder why that is?


Because of the Global Foundry. That is until something else hits the fan like thier earnings report, or should I say loss?

I still think it will be near the end of this year before AMD makes it back in black again.

TechnologyCoordinator said:
Wait, AMD's making a double cheeseburger? I thought monolithic was the best...

Quote:
announcing the 12-core total of two Istanbul dies in one Magny-Cours package to come out half a year later.


Hey never doubt the words of AMD. Just because they are using a similar approach to get a 12 core CPU doesn't mean Intel was right!!!!!!!!!!!

j/k
a b à CPUs
May 2, 2009 12:45:10 PM

randomizer said:
Because $2 is already too low :kaola: 


Finally getting monies!

Man, I lost that stock sim game soooo badly...
a b à CPUs
May 2, 2009 1:26:46 PM

jennyh said:


Well it's clear you are no expert at analyzing the stock market fazers, you've been banging the same drum over AMD's demise for the past year lol.


Really? Show me one post where I pulled a Sharikou and predicted AMD will "BK by Q2 2009" or something similar. Yes, I have pointed out AMD's financial weaknesses, but I have also stated that with the UAE bailout, AMD will have the $$ to compete at least until the end of this year. However, the foundry biz was the last piece AMD had to sell, unless they get rid of ATI, so that's pretty much it for cash infusions.

If you are equating today's stock price with a company's overall prognosis for survival, then I'd say you are fairly naive. As I said before, stock prices are only partly based on a company's current bottom line - a lot of it is speculation as to where they company may be in the near future, and a lot of it is just gambling that the price will rise or fall.
a b à CPUs
May 2, 2009 2:43:20 PM

jimmysmitty said:

Hey never doubt the words of AMD. Just because they are using a similar approach to get a 12 core CPU doesn't mean Intel was right!!!!!!!!!!!


I don't care if my next silicon die is made of real bread, as long as it has good performance, nobody really cares how the performance came to be (as long as it is power efficient too!)
May 2, 2009 6:58:24 PM

randomizer said:
He lives!



LOL, yeah, I live!

I have good news. My wife and I (married for three years) decided we want to have kids. So we started trying... Let's just say unlike AMD, I don't shoot blanks. First try, no joke. So now my wife is pregnant for the first time! My wife calls me "One shot Scott".

Pregancy is awesome. Can't really say why here, but I think many of the older gents out there may know what I'm talking about.

If all goes well baby will be due in late December! WooHoo!

I shall name him\her "TechnologyCoordinator 2.0".


May 2, 2009 7:29:20 PM

jimmysmitty said:
Because of the Global Foundry. That is until something else hits the fan like thier earnings report, or should I say loss?

I still think it will be near the end of this year before AMD makes it back in black again.


I agree. The Global Foundry is probably the only reason why AMD is still afloat at the moment, as well as the stock soared. In other words, without those sugar daddies from UAE, AMD is probably seeking to file Chap. 11 as well.
May 2, 2009 8:55:52 PM

jimmysmitty said:
Because of the Global Foundry. That is until something else hits the fan like thier earnings report, or should I say loss?

I still think it will be near the end of this year before AMD makes it back in black again.



Hey never doubt the words of AMD. Just because they are using a similar approach to get a 12 core CPU doesn't mean Intel was right!!!!!!!!!!!

j/k



It most certainly do prove intel was right, AMD can't talk about how bad
of an ideal it is to stack or glue two chip together, then do the same thing now it's alright. Where I come from my friend that's talking out of both
sides of your face.
a b à CPUs
May 3, 2009 12:44:44 AM

Congrats TC.



May 3, 2009 4:11:29 AM

TechnologyCoordinator said:
LOL, yeah, I live!

I have good news. My wife and I (married for three years) decided we want to have kids. So we started trying... Let's just say unlike AMD, I don't shoot blanks. First try, no joke. So now my wife is pregnant for the first time! My wife calls me "One shot Scott".

Pregancy is awesome. Can't really say why here, but I think many of the older gents out there may know what I'm talking about.

If all goes well baby will be due in late December! WooHoo!

I shall name him\her "TechnologyCoordinator 2.0".



You should make sure his/her first word is "Chip" on teh forumz.

(or triple cripple!)
a b à CPUs
May 3, 2009 5:27:24 AM

^ has to be 13 to register according to the ToS

aww, kewl

congrats TC!
a b à CPUs
May 3, 2009 12:57:54 PM

By the time TC Jnr is 13 kids will have implants in the skull plugging them straight into the matrix.

I'll be down in the drains in a submarine eating dog food I guess.

Jeez ... not much to look forward to.

Still ... at least I won't be getting used as an energizer battery.
a b à CPUs
May 3, 2009 1:48:49 PM

Nah, that's Mirror's Edge.
a b à CPUs
May 3, 2009 2:04:33 PM

Yeah, congrats TC! As for the name, TC2.0, at least you didn't go for Dweezle or Moon Unit, like Frank Zappa :) .
a b à CPUs
May 3, 2009 2:07:43 PM

Congrats TC
May 3, 2009 2:57:46 PM

Congats, good news indeed TC!

I suggest you name the first "Core 1", the next "Core 2", etc...

This way when they're older and there's chores to be done - you can distibute the tasks evenly among all your cores.
a b à CPUs
May 3, 2009 11:10:54 PM

I hope the yeild quality is high and you end up with a full speed unit with plenty of cache and it overclocks well (makes the olympics).

That's all a parent wants ... a healthy child (sucessful tapeout).

I hope the pregnancy goes well for mum too Scotty.
a b à CPUs
May 4, 2009 12:59:38 AM

Just avoid a triple cripple.
a b à CPUs
May 4, 2009 5:49:53 AM

How many dies are you expecting in the batch?
!