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Ventilation for PC

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August 18, 2010 11:48:21 PM

Hello,


Any HVAC engineers out there? :D 

I'm trying to engineer someway of venting the heat generated from my computer. Right now I'm running two GTX 480's in SLI with air cooling. Everything runs fine but it ups the temperature in the living room by a good 20 - 30 degrees F (with windows open). So, I was thinking about picking up water cooling for three reason:

1) quieter
2) overclocking
3) the following ventilation system:



Basically, I would build a "shroud" (for lack of a better term) connecting a thermal duct to my radiator. Similarly, I would add a vent to the other side of the duct which would fit neatly in a window sill (just as an air conditioner or window fan). I'd add a fan to the end of the duct (inside the vent) to help with air flow. This would be in addition to the fans pulling air off the radiator itself. I also planned on adding insulated foam to insure an air-tight seal.

So, my question is, will this eliminate a majority of the heat that would normally accumulate in my living room by pushing it to the outside? If the difference isn't substantial I probably wouldn't spend the time building this monstrosity. Is my logic sound? Am I missing something?

I want to avoid having to run the A/C 24-7 just to enjoy my computer.

I tried searching for pc ventilation out a window but I just kept getting results about throwing your pc out a window. Not very productive at all.

Thanks!

More about : ventilation

a b K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 1:53:32 AM

If you have an expensive pc, with no chance of upgrades in coming future/ at least year. Than do it. It will definitely help with heat dissipation and its good that the heat wont accumulate in you room.

well how much heat one PC can make btw :p 
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August 19, 2010 3:31:19 AM

Fetal said:
If you have an expensive pc, with no chance of upgrades in coming future/ at least year. Than do it. It will definitely help with heat dissipation and its good that the heat wont accumulate in you room.

well how much heat one PC can make btw :p 



Yeah I just bought all new core components. When I play Starcraft 2 my GTX 480s reach 92 degrees Celsius each. After an hour I'm sweating like I've been at the gym all day.

The components for building this ventilation duct aren't expensive but I first would have to switch over to water cooling, which would be a very large investment.

I've been trying to research thermodynamics using the internet and so far I can gather that the heat should try to leave the duct (high pressure) and disperse into the outside air (low pressure). I just wish I knew a little bit more about what types of material to use, i.e., aluminum or what not.
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a c 183 K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 12:11:22 PM

The duct to use would be insulated like this and a louvre at the termination.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Prod...
If you dont use this you'll have birds and insects in your rig a dryer termination vent with steel mesh will also work.
When it's cool out like winter you'll have bigger problems unless you have insulated duct.
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August 19, 2010 1:42:32 PM

Ah, these look perfect Davcon!

What about for the "shroud" I'd have to construct? Could I make it out of aluminum? Would I have to line it with insulation, like glass fiber?

I also have concerns with the diameter of the duct. The radiator I need is about 21" long, 5" wide (fits four 120mm fans). Is a 4" inner diameter enough? Maybe that's where the insulation is key...but should I be considering something wider like 8"? If I could fit something smaller in that would be perfect especially since an additional 3" of insulation makes it even larger, but I need to make sure that the radiator is disappating enough heat or my GPUs will fry. The additional fan at the end of the duct would help move the hot air but I just want to make sure it's enough.

Thanks!
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a c 100 K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 2:47:21 PM

Why not get a solid pump like a MCP655 and run the tubes all the way to the window, and just mount the radiator right there? Won't really need a shroud then.
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a c 183 K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 3:07:51 PM

blang86 said:
Ah, these look perfect Davcon!

What about for the "shroud" I'd have to construct? Could I make it out of aluminum? Would I have to line it with insulation, like glass fiber?

I also have concerns with the diameter of the duct. The radiator I need is about 21" long, 5" wide (fits four 120mm fans). Is a 4" inner diameter enough? Maybe that's where the insulation is key...but should I be considering something wider like 8"? If I could fit something smaller in that would be perfect especially since an additional 3" of insulation makes it even larger, but I need to make sure that the radiator is disappating enough heat or my GPUs will fry. The additional fan at the end of the duct would help move the hot air but I just want to make sure it's enough.

Thanks!

4" ID is more then enough gas appliances and fireplaces use that size to vent anything bigger will cause problems.
Btw i'm a licensed and certified HVAC technician.
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a c 190 K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 4:17:27 PM

I like your plan man :) 
But I'd agree with Wolfram for simplicities sake,
Uprated pump, two long hoses to the 'outside world' ( Mythical place imo)
you could mount a car sized rad on the outside and have a big fan :) 
I'd have antifreeze in the loop though to avoid any winter issues :p 
plus if you need to move the Pc at any time,you'll have plenty of play in the hoses
Moto
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a c 324 K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 4:20:08 PM

The problem will lie more with the fact that you will be venting 'potentially' outside in the summer time. To be honest, with watercooling, you don't get the higher temps that you have with traditional heatsinks and fans, since (if done correctly) the water doesn't reach the temps that the heatsinks do; it remains closer to ambient temps. If you setup a loop correctly, you don't get all that 'heat dump' because there isn't all the extra heat to begin with...it is kept regulated by the surface area of the radiators and the ambient air being forced through the rad fins. My radiators never register as even being warm to the touch...the only component I notice getting warm at all, is the power supply.
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August 19, 2010 5:10:04 PM

Thanks for all the great support, guys!

rubix_1011 said:
The problem will lie more with the fact that you will be venting 'potentially' outside in the summer time. To be honest, with watercooling, you don't get the higher temps that you have with traditional heatsinks and fans, since (if done correctly) the water doesn't reach the temps that the heatsinks do; it remains closer to ambient temps. If you setup a loop correctly, you don't get all that 'heat dump' because there isn't all the extra heat to begin with...it is kept regulated by the surface area of the radiators and the ambient air being forced through the rad fins. My radiators never register as even being warm to the touch...the only component I notice getting warm at all, is the power supply.


This will be my first DIY watercooling experience. From what I've read, heat cannot be created or destroyed - which leaves me to believe the temperatures outside of my case will remain the same. I'm also counting on the air moving from high pressure to low pressure, not the temperature of the outside air to the air being vented. I am more than happy to test this out first though. It would save me a load of trouble.

wolfram23 said:
Why not get a solid pump like a MCP655 and run the tubes all the way to the window, and just mount the radiator right there? Won't really need a shroud then.


This is, in fact, the pump I'm planning on buying. I was concerned that an extra 3 ~ 4 feet of tubing would adversly affect my loop - or at least cause my pump to degrade faster.

Thanks for all the HVAC expertise Davcon. You certainly answered my immediate question. I will try simply switching to water cooling - and so long as the MCP655 can handle the extra length of tubing - I'll setup my radiator in the window. If that doesn't help, I'll try building this contraption and I'll let you know my results :D 
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a c 190 K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 5:12:19 PM

Cool,
Good luck with the project man, and please, pictures of the beast once your done?
:p 
Moto
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a b K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 5:20:57 PM

Soon in the news.

'Here as we look at the biggest Global Warming setup, The Environment Control act guys are on there way, and as you can see the huge group of protesters outside this house which is emitting tons of co2 in the air. we haven't figured out what is causing this massive disruption in Eco system, but soon we will be able too, plus whoever is behind it. We urge everyone to stay inside their homes as this could get ugly'

:p 

Yeah pictures would be sweet.
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a c 324 K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 5:23:03 PM

You are correct, heat will not be 'destroyed', but the fact remains there will be less of it due to the ability of watercooling loop to remain at a consistenly lower temperature. Instead of your GPU's at 80C under load, they would be at 45C under load. Your CPU wouldn't be pushing 65C under load, but more like 40-45C..

CO2 into the air...please don't begin believing that CO2 into the air is the source of 'global warming'. The earth warms and cools in trends; it has been documented for decades with scientific proof it has been occurring for millennia. The fact is, volcanic eruptions account for more CO2 and hydrocarbon emission than industrialization and automobiles. Garbage and litter, yes, this is an issue. 'Global warming' due to human impact is miniscule compared to the world's ecosystem as a whole. It's the same reason the ozone hole over Antarctica has slipped most memories...because it's closing...fluctuations that have taken place for...say it with me...millennia.
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August 19, 2010 5:36:17 PM

Best answer selected by blang86.
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a c 190 K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 5:42:16 PM

Why would a Pc be producing co2?
do you have sparkplugs instead of cores? hehe
plus ofc I'd be staying indoors, reading up on it on the net ofc
Moto
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a c 100 K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 5:56:47 PM

rubix_1011 said:
You are correct, heat will not be 'destroyed', but the fact remains there will be less of it due to the ability of watercooling loop to remain at a consistenly lower temperature. Instead of your GPU's at 80C under load, they would be at 45C under load. Your CPU wouldn't be pushing 65C under load, but more like 40-45C..

CO2 into the air...please don't begin believing that CO2 into the air is the source of 'global warming'. The earth warms and cools in trends; it has been documented for decades with scientific proof it has been occurring for millennia. The fact is, volcanic eruptions account for more CO2 and hydrocarbon emission than industrialization and automobiles. Garbage and litter, yes, this is an issue. 'Global warming' due to human impact is miniscule compared to the world's ecosystem as a whole. It's the same reason the ozone hole over Antarctica has slipped most memories...because it's closing...fluctuations that have taken place for...say it with me...millennia.


First thing is to remember that heat and temperature are totally different. Water has a high heat capacity, meaning it can absorb more heat than, say, air per 1C increase in temperature. So when you get hot air coming of your GPUs, vs less hot water, they both absorbed a lot of heat - and the water absorbed the most even tho it didn't rise anywhere near as high in temperature (it absorbed more because the card runs cooler - that heat went somewhere). When it comes to dissipating heat, once the water reaches a stable temp the heat in is equal to the heat out. When the delta between ambient and what you're trying to dissipate is bigger, there's more heat energy which means the heat is more easily moved away - think of how CPU coolers always have very close idles but their load temps can be many degrees apart.

So basically, the radiator should definitely be pushing out as much heat as a regular air cooled system if not more due to possibly better efficiency of a rad over a heat sink, but the temperature difference is less so there's less "hot air". Think of a cup full of boiling hot water. That's like air cooling. Poor that into a big sink of room temp water and the overall temp won't rise. On the other hand, turn the tap on to luke warm and let it run and run and run. The sink water will warm up more, even tho the added water has a lower temp.

And as for global warming, you're partially right. The Earth does go through warming and cooling trends, but this is nearly entirely caused by 2 things. The stuff in our atmosphere - namely CO2, and the sun having high and low flare cycles. While it's true volcanoes output a lot of CO2 - that is how the Earth came out of the last ice age, afterall, humanity is still having an effect on the CO2 levels and causing warming. Volcano activity isn't super high at the moment. Regardless, we should do what we can to reduce our CO2 emissions. And even if you want to ignore that, you do agree on waste - well what about waste that goes into the air and pollutes it? There's lots of cases of people living near industrial factories and the whole town gets sick from the air pollution. Plus it collects in the humidity and comes back down as rain and poisons the earth and water. It's just bad news all around.
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August 19, 2010 6:12:37 PM

wolfram23 said:

So basically, the radiator should definitely be pushing out as much heat as a regular air cooled system if not more due to possibly better efficiency of a rad over a heat sink, but the temperature difference is less so there's less "hot air". Think of a cup full of boiling hot water. That's like air cooling. Poor that into a big sink of room temp water and the overall temp won't rise. On the other hand, turn the tap on to luke warm and let it run and run and run. The sink water will warm up more, even tho the added water has a lower temp.


Thanks for the explanation Wolf. I think I understand. In other words, water can absorb more heat than air before it will rise in temperature. Then since the water's temperature is less than the temperature of the heat absorbed, it affects the ambient temperature less than conventional air cooling would.

It would be nice if this makes a big enough difference. Although part of me will be sad if I don't need to build my contraption.

I'll look into how much more heat water can absorb than air. That might help me decide how to procede.

Edit: So it looks like water absorbs about four times the heat of air. Does that mean my ambient temperatures will be only a quarter of what they were with air cooling? I think I'm over simplifying things. This would make a huge difference in my living room.
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a b K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 6:53:55 PM

rubix_1011 said:
You are correct, heat will not be 'destroyed', but the fact remains there will be less of it due to the ability of watercooling loop to remain at a consistenly lower temperature. Instead of your GPU's at 80C under load, they would be at 45C under load. Your CPU wouldn't be pushing 65C under load, but more like 40-45C..

CO2 into the air...please don't begin believing that CO2 into the air is the source of 'global warming'. The earth warms and cools in trends; it has been documented for decades with scientific proof it has been occurring for millennia. The fact is, volcanic eruptions account for more CO2 and hydrocarbon emission than industrialization and automobiles. Garbage and litter, yes, this is an issue. 'Global warming' due to human impact is miniscule compared to the world's ecosystem as a whole. It's the same reason the ozone hole over Antarctica has slipped most memories...because it's closing...fluctuations that have taken place for...say it with me...millennia.



... what happened to you. :heink:  so emotional on this issue? go relax :o 

Motopsychojdn said:
Why would a Pc be producing co2?
do you have sparkplugs instead of cores? hehe
plus ofc I'd be staying indoors, reading up on it on the net ofc
Moto



HAHA was being sarcastic. No offense. This just for one pc. you don't need to mess so much. It comes to the same conclusion. If you are saving like 20$ per year by not overclocking, then its a joke. 20$ is nothing. That's why doing this much just for say 2 to 4 degrees better room temp would be waste of time, money and space. Money being everything.

Now importantly i am not pointing fingers at you abilities or the part of you which likes to conquer this task. If you like ii, go ahead.
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a c 100 K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 6:58:10 PM

Well watercooling helps PC temps a lot. And again, it IS still outputing a constant amount of heat into your room so the air duct thing will still help if you want to do it.
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a c 324 K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 8:56:28 PM

Quote:
... what happened to you. so emotional on this issue? go relax


Nah, I just like to stir the pot on occaision.
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August 19, 2010 9:28:45 PM

So, you are venting hot room air outside, good.

What are you replacing that air with? Unless a window is slightly open, if you have a tightly insulated house, pretty soon you will have an air replacement problem- the system won't be able to vent much air outside because its running out of air inside.

If you have a 100 year old clapboard house, then OK, no problem, replacement air will come in from everywhere. :o 
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a b K Overclocking
August 19, 2010 10:19:35 PM

^ hahahaah. and to top it of, whatever air is inside his room, that will be constantly converted into cold one. i don't know what will happen if his ac isn't getting enough air to cool, and it keeps on air conditioning.
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August 19, 2010 10:48:02 PM

hangfirew8 said:
So, you are venting hot room air outside, good.

What are you replacing that air with? Unless a window is slightly open, if you have a tightly insulated house, pretty soon you will have an air replacement problem- the system won't be able to vent much air outside because its running out of air inside.

If you have a 100 year old clapboard house, then OK, no problem, replacement air will come in from everywhere. :o 


Ha, I'll keep this in mind. I can just open another window across from me.
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a c 324 K Overclocking
August 20, 2010 1:30:28 PM

Wind-tunnel fans that create a vacuum inside a house? You might have yourselves a gold mine with that idea.
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a c 190 K Overclocking
August 20, 2010 2:28:52 PM

yeah,nail your furniture down and the house hoovers itself :p 
Made of win.....
Moto
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a b K Overclocking
August 20, 2010 4:33:48 PM

^ this thread is going lol. :p 
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a c 324 K Overclocking
March 16, 2012 12:52:38 PM

Please do not hijack another forum thread- it is best to open a new thread with your questions so they can be addressed separately from the thread starter to avoid confusion.

Closing the thread.
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