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Ganging up on the i7/x58

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a c 177 V Motherboard
July 11, 2009 9:33:24 PM

hey guys - a new dose of "Bilbat's mistreatment of the posters" :bounce: 

Revision Date: 08-30-09 - new EX58-UD3R-SLI BIOS added (but I think, not yet the 'final goody'); I can finally make a 'constructive' comment, instead of searching for the 'non-working' in hopes of sound advice. If you are currently thinking to get your feet wet in the x5x/i7 'pool of disaster', think hard about an EX58-UD3R Rev1.6; the key to really good performance would seem to be found in cranking the PCIe frequency a bit - and the 'secret' to cranking the PCIe appears to be a hardware mod, which the 1.6 already has! If that board doesn't meet your needs, I firmly suggest waiting just a bit longer - new boards are 'waiting in the wings' for their 'debut'! Within a day or three, I will be posting a raft of new stuff - and I may give up the 'disjunctive logic' approach of databasing all the failures to 'reduce the pile' to the working stuff; for now, take a peek here (and marvel!): http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22... By all means, shift to the new BIOS revs - the memory stability issues appear to be 'night and day' (and, they support the mod...)!

Revision Date: 08-28-09 - new BIOS added; gamers, rejoice!
----------Most BIOS 'patched' to fix your beloved Logi G-15s! (I'm ticked - if they came in blue, I'd have one! - I'm suffering along with a G-11 :cry:  ...)
----------note1: BIOS listed as 'bare' are actual, uncompressed, 1meg BIOS files - don't contain the usual flasher/autoexec usually included - gotta "roll yer' own!"
----------note2: Still working on the UD3R-SLI updates - need some confirmation, don' wanna give you the wrong files!!
----------note3: GB's standard caveat regarding beta BIOS applies:
--What is a BETA? BETA describes a new version that is reliable yet may not include all the features of the final product. During this phase we are previewing new features and gathering customer input to insure our product provides the best experience possible.


I've re-collated some access points here, and moved the current BIOS revs to MediaFire - I figure we've all got better things to occupy our time than waiting around on GB's web-site (which appears to be hosted on an old Apple IIe with 16K of RAM, and a six hundred baud modem - well, maybeee three hundred - it's hard to tell!); and, gotta great new reference site for GB BIOS/docs/'what have you':
http://www.station-drivers.com/page/gigabyte/gigabyte%2...
(have to polish up your old high school French, though!) (doesn't seem to be too reliable, either - last night, when I found it, I had to ask if the link was good; couldn't get on - early this AM - worked fine for hours - now [10AM-Central] no go... Guess we'll just have to try back - it does sometimes work, and it's really good!) (and one more! - finally dawned on me [that high school French is pretty rusty!]: "Renovation de la page en cours" = "Restoration of the page in progress..."; they're probably up and down for maintenance!!! - damn nuns should'a hit me over the head more often back in HS...)

Archive of all (I think) of the Intel i7/x58 documentation: http://www.mediafire.com/?yzj5ggmyt4g

Excellent 'link page' to stress and memory testers, sundry drivers, etc. :
http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/latest-overclocking-pro...

Everyone should at least have a copy of MemTest86+:
http://home.att.net/~chip.programmer/Memtest86/memtest8...
Unzip it to an .iso, and burn it to a CD - makes a bootable RAM tester, which I'm guessing we'll be using extensively...

Intersting Gigabyte 'demo' here; uses an Extreme, but, as evidenced below, these are all pretty much the same hardware - give or take a few peripherals:
http://www.mediafire.com/?5moyzjmqvtv

'Uncore' calcs:
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7790...

Motherboard references and BIOS:
=========================

EX58-UD3R Rev1.0 Home page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Product...
BIOS page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Support/Motherboard/BIOS_Mod...
+++++++
BIOS avail:
F8a (beta): Fix Logitech G15 USB
F7e (beta): Improve Memory Performance/B2B CAS Delay
F7: Improve Memory compatibility/Improve PCIe compatibility/ICH10R RAID eXtreme (XHD) SATA Support
F6: Update new CPU microcode
F5: Support nVidia SLI
F4: Improve VGA card compatibility/Improve S3 resume compatibility/Intel®Core™ i7 processor D-0 stepping support.
F3: Enhance DDR compatibility
F2: Enhance system stability
Current F7: http://www.mediafire.com/?3ltm1zwiny1
F7e (beta - 'bare' 1M BIOS): http://www.mediafire.com/?2mjghgybmlr
F8a (beta): http://www.mediafire.com/?nrgodznwoyy



EX58-UD3R Rev1.6 Home page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Product...
BIOS page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Support/Motherboard/BIOS_Mod...
+++++++
BIOS avail:
FC (beta): ICH10R RAID eXtreme (XHD) SATA Support/B2B CAS Delay Support
FB: Fixed IDE compatibility
FA: For EX58-UD3R rev.1.6
Current FB: http://www.mediafire.com/?0gzzmnzmwlw
FC (beta): http://www.mediafire.com/?z5z5ngmiqnz



EX58-UD3R-SLI Home page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Product...
BIOS page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Support/Motherboard/BIOS_Mod...
+++++++
BIOS avail:
F5c (beta): ??? (working on it...)
F4: Update new CPU microcode
F3: Enhance Core i7 D0 stepping compatibility; Fix abnormal messages from EasyTune 6 and DES in Vista
F2: Improve VGA card compatibility; Improve S3 resume compatibility; Intel®Core™ i7 processor D-0 stepping support
F1: First Release
Current F4: http://www.mediafire.com/?ynm4xeuxolr
F5c (beta - 'bare' 1M BIOS): http://www.mediafire.com/?gznmdmmndmi


EX58-UD4 Home page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Product...
BIOS page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Support/Motherboard/BIOS_Mod...
+++++++
BIOS avail:
F7a (beta): Fix Logitech G15 USB
F6: Improve Memory Performance/B2B CAS Delay
F5: Update new CPU microcode
F4: Support nVidia SLI
F3: Improve VGA card compatibility; Improve S3 resume compatibility; Intel®Core™ i7 processor D-0 stepping support
F2: Enhance system stability
Current F6: (under construction - unavailable at the moment...)
F5: http://www.mediafire.com/?hthznwfw2nw
F6c (beta): http://www.mediafire.com/?xkmmkrjttmm
F7a (beta): http://www.mediafire.com/?jq20n15yymo



EX58-UD4P Home page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Product...
BIOS page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Support/Motherboard/BIOS_Mod...
+++++++
BIOS avail:
F10a (beta): Fix Logitech G15 USB
F9e (beta): Improve Memory Performance/B2B CAS Delay
F9: Improve Memory compatibility/Improve PCIe compatibility/ICH10R RAID eXtreme (XHD) SATA Support
F8: Update new CPU microcode
F7: Enhance Core i7 D0 stepping compatibility; Fix abnormal messages from EasyTune 6 and DES in Vista
F6: Improve VGA card compatibility; Improve S3 resume compatibility; Intel®Core™ i7 processor D-0 stepping support
F5: Enhance DDR compatibility
F4: Make QPI over voltage range more wider (up to 2.0V)
F3: Enhance system stability
Current F9: http://www.mediafire.com/?nmndkmunydq
F9e (beta - 'bare' 1M BIOS): http://www.mediafire.com/?ynwzl0auydh
F10a (beta): http://www.mediafire.com/?mzzzz2tw2mz



EX58-DS4 Home page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Product...
BIOS page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Support/Motherboard/BIOS_Mod...
+++++++
BIOS avail:
F7e (beta): Improve Memory Performance/B2B CAS Delay
F7: Improve Memory compatibility/Improve PCIe compatibility/ICH10R RAID eXtreme (XHD) SATA Support
F6: Update new CPU microcode
F5: Improve VGA card compatibility; Improve S3 resume compatibility; Intel®Core™ i7 processor D-0 stepping support
F4: Fix S3 resume turbo mode issue; Fix DualBIOS recovery issue; Improve System Stability
Current F7: http://www.mediafire.com/?mygym4z0tiq
F7e (beta - 'bare' 1M BIOS): http://www.mediafire.com/?zihn12w2nkm



EX58-UD5 Home page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Product...
BIOS page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Support/Motherboard/BIOS_Mod...
+++++++
BIOS avail:
F9a (beta): Fix Logitech G15 USB
F8h (beta): Improve Memory Performance/B2B CAS Delay
F8: Update new CPU microcode/Improve Memory compatibility/Improve PCIe compatibility/ICH10R RAID eXtreme (XHD) SATA Support
F7: Update new CPU microcode
F6: Enhance Core i7 D0 stepping compatibility; Fix abnormal messages from EasyTune 6 and DES in Vista
F5: Improve VGA card compatibility; Improve S3 resume compatibility; Intel®Core™ i7 processor D-0 stepping support
F4: Fix S3 resume turbo mode issue; Fix DualBIOS recovery issue; Improve System Stability
F3: Fix CPU compatibility issues
Current F8: http://www.mediafire.com/?qdyn5yn3jiy
Modded F8b w/new AHCI code: http://forums.tweaktown.com/300786-post1025.html
F8h (beta - 'bare' 1M BIOS): http://www.mediafire.com/?ymizwm2jfmy
F9a (beta): http://www.mediafire.com/?hddmmjy4yj1



EX58-EXTREME Home page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Product...
BIOS page: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Support/Motherboard/BIOS_Mod...
+++++++
BIOS avail:
F9a (beta): Fix Logitech G15 USB
F8i (beta): Improve Memory Performance/B2B CAS Delay
F8: Improve Memory compatibility/Improve PCIe compatibility/ICH10R RAID eXtreme (XHD) SATA Support
F7: Update new CPU microcode
F6: Enhance Core i7 D0 stepping compatibility; Fix abnormal messages from EasyTune 6 and DES in Vista
F5: Improve VGA card compatibility; Improve S3 resume compatibility; Intel®Core™ i7 processor D-0 stepping support
F4: Fix S3 resume turbo mode issue; Fix DualBIOS recovery issue; Improve System Stability
F3: Fix CPU compatibility issues
Current F8: http://www.mediafire.com/?tzm0yjzwzja
Modded F8x w/new AHCI code: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3838...
F8i (beta - 'bare' 1M BIOS): http://www.mediafire.com/?yzhmuz2ymu2
F9a (beta): http://www.mediafire.com/?mw4zjjyynrw


This is from a post elsewhere, that I felt might be cogent here:

Quote:
If you have to tweak settings that are to spec, there is something wrong with the board.


There is something wrong with all these boards - they're, in effect, a massive beta test. You have a brand new processor technology, with a brand new
litho mask, with a brand new (not even called an MCH anymore - now it's an 'IOH) northbridge, with a brand new bus technology (QPI), with brand new memory
technology/topology (tri-phase), with brand new memory (low voltage DDR3), with brand new BIOS, with brand new motherboards (is the theme becoming obvious?)!

Quote:
This is why standards exist


Well, it's all well and good to declare that, but it begs the question of 'where do the standards originate?' Intel publishes a pair of specs that declare where
the registers are in the i7 and the x58 that control the QPI implementation, and how it's done at the hardware level; the board designers interpret that pair of specs
and implement their 'best guess' at what that means at the hardware level; then the BIOS guys at Award take their best guess at how to handle the register
level interaction with the board hardware, then we fiddle with it, to find out 'what actually happens' - and then the 'standard' evolves... Took evolution a couple billion years to produce us - I think we can bear with several months for 'rev three' of everything to 'gel'...

That's why I've proposed this on-line experiment; hopefully, with a number of people comparing experience and results, we can hasten the process for everyone a bit. I
liken the process to a 'dig' by, say, cultural anthrolpologists, or paleontologists; each one is down digging in a hole, and every once in a while, he finds a fragment
(that, by itself, doesn't mean much), and 'throws it up' out of the hole... It remains for someone up at ground level, wandering between the holes, to see that, why, if
I fit this fragment with that one, I get a piece of a jar (or a spoon, or a vertebra, or a jawbone)!

But, that said, I'm certainly not interested in 'twisting anyone's arm' to whom this does not seem necessary or provident, to participate - I simply wanted to explain
my aims a little...

More about : ganging x58

July 12, 2009 12:42:38 AM

I'm yet another of the group. Here is my setup:

Model Name : GA-EX58-UD3R(rev. 1.6)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VGA Brand : Jaton Model : PX385GS-DLP
CPU Brand : Intel Model : i7 Speed : 2.66
Operation System : Vista 64-bit SP :
Memory Brand : Gskill Type : DDR# DDR3-1333 Model: F3-10666CL9T-6GBNQ
Memory Size : 6GB
Power Supply : Apevia 680 W

Mine did one of the stranger things I've been seeing on this problem. Mine ran for 2 full days without touching a setting (default) in the BIOS. On the evening of the second day, I began to have the same power cycling problem everyone has had. I have done the same basic troubleshooting that everyone has been doing with the exception of swapping parts. I'm sorry I don't have much to offer since this just happened. I just want to offer another data point for the group. This looks to be a fairly large number of people. I may try to replace the memory (trip to Fry's) to see if this does anything. (This seems to be the more likely issue.)

I look forward to hearing other information on this.

Regards,

Ben

a c 177 V Motherboard
July 12, 2009 1:01:07 AM

Hopefully, before anyone commits to replacing parts, we can develop a bit broader picture of what parts seem to work, and which ones may be intrinsically problematic - that's one of the items I have in mind for this project: a 'sticky' for i7/x58 systems that contains parts we know work well, procedures we've tested to 'bring 'er up', and some expectations for sustainable overclocks...

Glad to see you here - once there's a number of people touching base, we'll figure out some logistics...

Bill
July 12, 2009 12:09:58 PM

My problem is to get this done before my warranty period is up. (Another 2 weeks.) I'll probably swap the memory today (Trip to Fry's) with one specifically on the list of supported. More to come...

Thanks for coordinating this forum.

Ben
a c 177 V Motherboard
July 12, 2009 2:26:41 PM

Ahh - the clock is ticking! That pointed something out to me - I have all the manuals (both GB and Intel) but I haven't yet visited the processor and memory 'supported' pages, nor the BIOS pages; will put together an easy access list today & post. I'm jealous - you've got a Fry's. I live in a suburb of Milwaukee - if WalMart or BestBuy don't have it, it's NewEgg time :cry:  We do have a coputer specific local batch of outlets, but they stock last year's parts at three times the price!
July 12, 2009 7:21:21 PM

Model Name : GA-EX58-UD3R(rev. 1.0)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VGA Brand : Jaton Model : PX385GS-DLP
CPU Brand : Intel Model : i7 Speed : 2.66
Memory Brand : Gskill Type : DDR# DDR3-1600 Model: OCZ 3FX16002GK PC3-12800
Memory Size : 2GB
Power Supply : Termalthake 430 W

Booting with 1 stick of memory in first channel (DDR3_1) only.
When a second stick inserted in any other slot the system doesn't load and beeps.
July 12, 2009 7:22:34 PM

Well after my trip to Fry's, they didn't have a single stick of memory on the supported list. I did, however, let the kid that worked there tell me that it was probably the power supply and I tried swapping it. No luck.

It is nice to have a Fry's close by (Plano - Dallas suburb) but Newegg is really good about getting shipments to you quickly (at least with my experience.

More to come...

Ben
July 13, 2009 9:13:17 AM

I've been having some power/rebooting problems with my newly-built i7 + Gigabyte EX58-UD3R system. I searched all over the Internet for solutions to my problem, and this thread is one of the closest links to it I can find. I hope my information will be of some relevance.

My system goes into BIOS fine, and it also worked well when I installed Windows 7 RC 64 bit. But when I try to turn my computer off, it would shut down but then turn back on a few seconds later. Nothing I do will get it to turn off permanently. Also, if I leave the system idle for a few hours, it would restart by itself, after which I go straight to a blank screen without BIOS or Windows loading.

I still have the same problem after formatting my hard drive in frustration. Again, it goes into BIOS, but when I press the power button to turn it off it restarts itself a few seconds later.

Here are my system specifications:

Intel Core i7 920
Gigabyte EX58-UD3R motherboard rev 1.6
DDR3-1600 Patriot PVT36G1600ELK 6 GB
OCZ 700W power supply

Anyway, thanks bilbat for coordinating this discussion. Hopefully there will be lots of good information on this topic in the days to come. Meanwhile, I'm pretty much at a dead end in trying to make my system work properly.
a c 238 V Motherboard
July 13, 2009 3:44:31 PM

With strange problems, the first thing to test is the ram. Run memtest86+ for at least a full pass. There should be NO errors.
If errors show up, test one stick at a time, and possibly test a good stick in each ram slot.

Is the ram in the proper set of slots? On the Asus P6T, you get problems if you do not use the orange slots. Check the mobo manual on this. It is not obvious because the proper ram slots are not the ones closest to the cpu.

Go to the ram vendor's web site, and access their configurator.
Corsair, Kingston, Patriot, OCZ and others have them.
Their compatibility list is more current than the motherboard vendor's QVL lists which rarely get updated.
Enter your mobo or PC, and get a list of compatible ram sticks.

Here are a few links:

http://www.crucial.com/index.aspx

http://www.corsair.com/configurator/default.aspx

http://kingston.com/

http://conf.ocztechnology.com/index.php?c=1

For what it is worth, Apevia psu's are considered a tier 5 unit on this list:
http://www.eggxpert.com/forums/thread/323050.aspx
a c 177 V Motherboard
July 13, 2009 4:40:53 PM

Thanks to all for stopping by; I'm starting a little database of everyone's hardware, and will figure out a way to post access; please get in the habit of looking at the first post, as I'm editing it daily to add aggregated 'points of interest' - simply listing the available BIOS revs and changes made me very aware that these are all the same board - with a few peripheral additions and subtractions - so any advances we make should work for all! The Gigabyte 'demo' I posted is especially interesting - though it has a technical detail or two mis-stated: probably a marketing department production, not engineering...
July 14, 2009 12:25:23 AM

Well I took back the power supply and bought another EX58-UD3R. This one is rev 1.0 (I realized when I got home). 1.0 and 1.6 differences are unimportant to me so I installed it and its up and running. I'm not certain if the 1.0 board has the same boot cycle problem. In the meantime, I'm running and I'll be glad to report any issues I see. For those of you out there with the boot cycle problem, it certainly seems that the board is crapping out at some point, whether at a day or a month (or when you plug it in). I'll continue to monitor this forum to see how it goes.

Good luck to all...
Ben
a b V Motherboard
July 22, 2009 4:51:29 AM

Poster here might be interested in some other threads at tweaktown regarding X-58 boards.

Here is one posted to by several identifying fixed to similar problems by removing the front case circuitry or changing PSUs - in one case even for a smaller 380w Antec Earthwatts.

http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/ga-ex58-ud3r-reboots-ov...

Bent processor pins

http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/ga-ex58-ud3r-unable-pos...

24 pin power connector not secure, Crucial memory version

http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/ga-ex58-ud3r-power-up-d...

They also have a lot of threads about overclocking these boards by people who obviously have them working fine.

Since it has been 10 days since this thread was started and little has been done, you might want to consider going to the tweaktown forum and searching on it, then asking about your issues there. After all, tweaktown is the official Gigabyte forum site and they have tech staff and many experienced users with X-58 systems already running and OC.
August 11, 2009 6:05:26 AM

Core i7 920 (2nd One)
ASUS P6T (Tried GA-EX58-UD4P Previosuly)
OCZ DDR3 1333 Platinum 7-7-7-20 - 6GB(3 dimms) or 12GB(6 dimms) (Tried OCZ Gold 1600 & Corsair 1333 Previously)
Antec 750w PSU (2nd One)
NVidia GTX 285
1TB WD Caviar Black HDD


I also have the reboot issue with default BIOS settings...
Last week with Gigabyte UD4P and other RAM (Tried OCZ and Corsair) This week with Asus P6T and OCZ RAM.

I can get into BIOS, the only beep is the standard single short beep at startup. I have 6 Ram DIMMs and have tried them all in different combinations, in different slots, Single DIMM included. I only have 1 GPU, the GTX 285. All the connections are good Ive been through those multiple times. It loops several times and then I can usually get a full boot to vista 64 where it will run stable for an hour sometimes more. The first boot it ran stable for almost 12 hours. Thing is it always eventually shuts down and begins looping again until it gets a full boot through then runs stable again. (For a while).

Is there any setting in a default BIOS setup that I might be able to change to fix it? Or should defaults mean sure-fire stability?

After trying a new motherboard, power supply, and a new i7 920. This thing is still rebooting randomly...On default BIOS settings. It gets into Vista almost every boot now, but it will randomly shut down and reboot all at different times. I ran Prime 95 on it for about 30 minutes had no problems. I ran windows mem diagnostics tool and it says no errors.

Ive basically built two computers and cannot figure this out. The only thing left is the video card could this be a possibility? Even though I get no beeps at boot and the video card is working great when its running?
I was also curious if it could be that im using 8 pin EATX power instead of 4 pin on the 12V?

Are there any diagnostic programs that I can use to see what exactly is happening when the shut down/reboot occurrs. As of now its completely random and seems to have nothing to do with what the load on the system is etc.

Thanks!


Im also have the same issues with my i7 looping with default BIOS settings. Just wondering if you ever resolved the issue.??

Thanks Jon
August 17, 2009 6:30:25 AM

Figured it out. Wanted to post in case someone else was googling this issue. The Cooler Master HAF 932 case reset switch was shorting out randomly. Unplugged the reset switch wires and the reboot loop is gone!

Wonderment.
a c 177 V Motherboard
August 26, 2009 5:59:55 PM

I realize I have been accused elswhere of more or less 'sitting on my hands' regarding this issue; I just wanted to reassure everyone that this is certainly not the case! I have the best incentive to do a thorough job here, as I fully intend to implement this architecture in future systems - the only driver more specific, I guess, is owning one, which I wasn't willing to do, as I predicted multiple problems when these were released - it's just always the case when a major advance is made! I'm working on a database to track and analyze these situations, hopefully with full statistics:

This is an adventure for me, as most database development I've ever done, with very few exceptions, has been extremely simple - either preparing machinery production statistics, or process plant recipe ingredient useage, for ODBC to a central mainframe; and Access has changed a lot since the last time I used it as well...

I'm also at roughly page thirty-five hundred in the 'reading list':

which is pretty much like flying - hours of boredom, puncuated by moments of intensity :wahoo: 
Some things have proven very interesting; the QPI, especially, is fascinating; I think there is an 'extensibility' designed in, which may just be for cache coherency in multiprocessor situations, but I can envision dual six core (i9? - maybe the marketing guys like prime numbers - i13?) CPUs on a board with the next generation of Intel's IOP333 Raid processor all 'talking QPI' at ungodly speeds! :bounce: 

Anyhow, work is getting done, and I will try to get to maintenance of the first page to ensure the latest BIOS, notes, and discoveries are up to date...

Thanks for your patience,

Bill
August 26, 2009 6:38:29 PM

I understand where Bill is coming from, I only have so many hours in the day as well after work and the gym and what not. ANyway. I seem to be having the same problems as everyone else though I haven't been able to test it regularly simply because I don't sit in front of this system as long as I should.

I had stability issues with Vista and Windows 7 especially. I can't go more than 30 min without it freezing up on me. It doesn't go into a reboot cycle it just freezes. Whether I be watching movies or surfing. (I'm also not too convinced that WIndows 7 likes Chrome). It's very iritating, considering every time i formagt i have to rebuild my stupid iTunes Library.
a c 177 V Motherboard
August 26, 2009 6:57:31 PM

Ain't iTunes a kick? Not only rebuild, but disable its multitude of useless services, and background sub-programs - I'm sorry, but I really don't want it to to 'upgrade' itself three times a week, especially as Apple never seems to have 'gotten' the concept of a 'patch' file - every damned time, it downloads the whole thing, and QuickTime to boot! I spent a bunch of hours some formats back, converting everything to MP3, and I have to admit, the last few installs of 7, I haven't even bothered to rebuild - I figure they're kind of 'temporary' anyway... I do believe, though, I'm finally ready for a 'final' of the Win7 RTM - I finally got the last few 'kinks' sorted out (current install was f'd up by my antivirus having to be installed/uninstalled/reinstalled ten or so times), and think I'm 'ready for prime time'...

I'm glad the time drain is appreciated - just answering the questions that GB tech support doesn't seem to handle well takes up a lot of time, and now, I have a few 'emailed' research projects 'cooking' - I'm considering becoming a meth addict, just to add a few hours to each day! :pt1cable: 

a b V Motherboard
August 26, 2009 7:46:09 PM

I don't understand bilbat. Posters here reported computers not working at all. You said you would coordinate the information to help arrive at a fix - presumably a timely one. Then you disappear for 6 weeks. Now you return to say that you are still working on it? How much longer do you think it will take? How much longer do you expect these people to wait with no computer working?

I sincerely hope they have taken the earlier suggestion and gone to the official Gigabyte site at tweaktown.com which has experts that already know how to fix the problem instead of waiting for bilbat to finish his leisurely stroll through a bunch of documents - most of which are bound to have little to do with the issue.
a c 177 V Motherboard
August 27, 2009 12:53:48 AM

Ahhh - it's YOU again!!
Quote:
How much longer do you expect these people to wait with no computer working?

"No computer working?" Whose fault, exactly, is that???
Let me try to make this clear enough so even you can understand it - I DON'T CARE!! I don't have an x58/i7 - it's Gigabyte's problem, it's Intel's problem, it's Corsair's problem - IT'S NOT MINE! Before these boards hit the market, I warned, loudly and often, that no one likely had any business experimenting with obviously 'beta' technologies, unless they had the experience level requisite, and a clear purpose to need this technology enough to make the clearly coming headaches worthwhile! And almost no one listened - they all had a 'yeah, but!' Yeah, but - now, they're a widespread headache. A bit ago, someone had a problem with his 'new and ultimate' i7 setup (read about it in a magazine!) because he didn't know to put the board on standoffs - screwed it right to the tray! Did he really need to cook five hundred dollars worth of hardware? "But the magazines said..." The computer press doesn't give a rip about us - only their advertising revenue!
Quote:
presumably a timely one

Whose presumption is that? And about what? My free time, ability, and willingness to be of assistance? Pretty bold, don't you think? I suggest you read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" - it might disabuse you of this level of presumption!
Quote:
instead of waiting for bilbat to finish his leisurely stroll through a bunch of documents - most of which are bound to have little to do with the issue

And you want to argue with my methods!? Indeed, a great deal of the voluminous documentation is pretty irrelevant; but I've got news for you - when Intel made up the .PDFs, they didn't highlight the 'important' pages in yellow! A lot of the oddball solutions I produce here, apparently 'out of my hat', come from an encyclopaedic knowledge of obscure documentation - which I read compulsively...
Quote:
Then you disappear for 6 weeks

Disappear? I'm here, pretty much daily; since our last little exchange, I have fixed a half dozen systems, walked another half dozen or so through 'no effort', safe overclocks; the only time I've "disappeared" is for a week or so after our last exchange, when I took a week or so off to consider whether I really wanted to continue here; what have you done for these folks in the meantime?
I have this going on as a daily piece of grief:

ShowAnalyzer and DVRMS-ToolBox have released new versions that deal with .WTV files, and I finally got automated commercial removal/transcoding working; my AV provider released a new major revision that ate a day (and my current Win7 install); to think of it - Win7RTM itself hit TechNet, and called for formatting two boot partitions; and reinstalling a few times to find the glitches, as well as reading another raft of semi-pertinent MSDN documentation... I DO OTHER THINGS! Some, by damn, that I just want to do!
Quote:
I sincerely hope they have taken the earlier suggestion and gone to the official Gigabyte site at tweaktown.com which has experts that already know how to fix the problem

Me too! I send people to TweakTown regularly, and I have asked LSD's permission to do so, when I've exhausted my means (but I did promise to exhaust them first, and to try to do a good job, here...) But, TweakTown has their hands full, too! I also tell people to post there, to Janus Yeh, when I think a problem is novel enough to demand being passed on the GB engineering guys, and, sometimes, if they fail to, I pass information along... It is engineers (and I know - I are one!), Intel's, GB's - who will ultimately solve these problems, and engineers don't work well with pests joggling their elbows! If anyone, including you, doesn't like my methodical pace, they are perfectly welcome to do any *&^% thing else! I have, for the main part, stayed out of i7 issues, except to collect and order data, as I don't know anything conclusively at this point - and probably won't for a while...

a b V Motherboard
August 27, 2009 2:04:37 PM

You are expert at slinging the irrlevant BS Bilbat - I will give you that - and twisting things around.

The fact is you asked these people to work with you to solve their problem. You asked them to follow you to a new thread and post info you requested. In exchange, you committed to working with them to try to find common solutions to their problem. All very noble. Except that was six weeks ago and you have failed to complete - or for the most part even start what you said you were going to do. That is the fact.

And above you just sling more BS.

No it is not your fault there computer is broken. I never said it was - you use such obvious and faulty rhetorical tricks to try to twist attention from facts. But you did make a commitment to these people - which for some period they were relying upon and providing you info - and you failed them.

And you question the implied timliness of help? Now that is sad. You mean if you tell people you will help them get their computer running there is no implication that you won't then not follow up for over 6 weeks like you have with these people? If you really beleive that then I see part of your problem - no sense of responsbility to others or for your commitments.

And more twisting - when I said you disappered for 6 weeks it obviously mean with regard to this thread and helping these people. To try to show my wrong by saying you were helping others on the website does not change the truthfulness of my statement. In fact - your point - that you were helping others - just further condemns yourself.. You make a commitment to people on this thread then ignore it while you go off spending a lot of time helping a lot of people with new issues.

Despite all your BS and efforts to obfuscate the truth - the fact remains - you told these people 6 weeks ago that you were going to help and got them to post on your new thread, then you deserted them. You can rant and rave all you want about all the documents you plan to read or you car engine - but the fact is you deserted these people and now are trying to hide that fact instead of giving them the apology you owe them.


a c 177 V Motherboard
August 27, 2009 3:33:58 PM

Quote:
You asked them to follow you to a new thread and post info you requested

Yes, and five people posted here: benm328, XcoderR, jcy88, geofelt, and jopy (who appeared to have solved his own problem) - not an overwhelming 'groundswell' of response! Especially considering that my 'master list' of posts, that I use to update the database, is over eighty items long, so far, and growing daily - and all that data must be input, and often re-input, as 'feature creep' causes Db restructures...
Quote:
You make a commitment to people on this thread then ignore it while you go off spending a lot of time helping a lot of people with new issues.

No one here 'owns' a commitment from me; my commitments (and, for that matter, my methods) are, strictly and absolutely, MY OWN. My first commitment here is to dispose of as many problems and pre-purchase questions as quickly and accurately as I possibly can, and I love LSD's caveat: I do not know everything; I make mistakes all the time; and, sometimes, my spelling is atrocious! What you neglect here is the whole point of "Atlas" (which I still highly recommend you read, you obviously show a 'communal' mindset): the work 'gets done' how? [blank out] The work 'gets done' by whom? [blank out] The work 'gets done' when? [blank out] This is the bedrock of socialist/communist philosophy: "From each, according to his abilty, to each, according to their need!" (and, by damn, within their timeframe!) When I commit to designing a control system to, say, run a four square block process plant, I trade my effort for material gain, under a clearly defined contract (which [at least, used to be!] is enforceable in a court of law); we agree on the scope, and timeframe, and exchange actual values...
Quote:
you use such obvious and faulty rhetorical tricks to try to twist attention from facts

You mistake the whole point; I am stating underlying, inflexible, 'absolute' philosophical principles, under which I've chosen to operate. I state them clearly, and you see them as 'didactic tricks'. The major problem we have in our society as a whole, is that nearly no one has any clear, reality based principles - starting with "A is A"!!! - that is how we wind up with an Arlen Specter, willing to turn on the constituents who elected him to capitalize on the exigency of the moment; a Government Motors, taken from the stockholders and bond holders, and given to the UAW in violation of the rule of law (bankruptcy court) to suit today's polls; again, the exigency of the moment.

I am telling you, as plainly and simply as I can manage, that, when I am giving things away (time, effort) to people who express a need for help, it is on MY TERMS - not THEIRS, and certainly not YOURS!

If you don't like it, you can continue to P & M at me here, or you can dock my pay! (your choice...)
a b V Motherboard
August 27, 2009 3:58:18 PM

1837484,22,354670 said:
You mistake the whole point... I am telling you, as plainly and simply as I can manage, that, when I am giving things away (time, effort) to people who express a need for help, it is on MY TERMS - not THEIRS, and certainly not YOURS!
said:


I mistake nothing.

You clearly stated before thatyou were going to help those posters and you did not. You never before stated your "me first and only" philosophy like you finally did above. But that says it all. You should have told others about your unusual approach before letting them think you would show responsiblity like other posters on this site. But thank you for the confession and let the buyer beware when expecting help from Bilbat. Take his offers to help for what they are - contingent on his whim. He sees nothing wrong with telling one large group of people he will help then ignoring them while going on to help new posters - his way, his terms. How sad that he argues this is OK. Sadder still the pathetic attempt to justify it with fractured philosophy - just more rambling distortion.
a c 177 V Motherboard
August 27, 2009 4:01:02 PM

..so, go ahead - dock my pay!!

Quote:
Take his offers to help for what they are - contingent on his whim.

Now you finally got it! A perfect restatement! And, believe it or not, it olnly seems to be a problem for you - none of the eighty or so people I've answered in the last month or so has had any complaint...
August 27, 2009 5:41:49 PM

rocky chill out. I get excited to see a new post on this thread only to find its you bickering. Let it be.

"let's not bicker an argue over who killed who..."
a b V Motherboard
August 27, 2009 6:11:20 PM

No - if you look at the timing it is bilbat posting another one of his lame excuses creating a new post - I just respond to his posting. And I will respond when bilbat posts his lies and misleading statements. His last one was so pathetic I was not going to respond but now I will to your criticism of me.

Talk to him. Maybe you should ask him not to post until he really has some information to help instead of just more lame excuses, although I suggest you don't hold your breath, especially after he made it clear that he does whatever he feels like doing regardless of what he has said he would do in the past.

And why do you get excited at seeing a new post when there has been no helpful information presented on this site for 6 weeks? Maybe this latest round will cause Bilbat to do something just to show me. But then I have no idea where all the other posters are at but I expect most of them must have already given up on Bilbat sought out other more reliable sources of help.

And I am surprised you criticize me when it is bilbat that has failed to deliver on his word and all I have done is respond to his repeated attempts to excuse his horrible behavior.

But just to make you happy I will post no more to this thread. Bilbat's mistreatment of the original posters has been documented and I have shown how bogus his lame excuses are. So let him say whatever he likes - make whatver new excuses or claims he will - I will not respond. The record is already clear.
a c 177 V Motherboard
August 28, 2009 2:51:31 PM

...bump - New info on first page...
August 30, 2009 8:50:28 PM

Quote:
rocky chill out


I agree...This person is only spoiling everthing for everyone, with his relentless presence on every post by bilbat.
a c 177 V Motherboard
August 30, 2009 9:32:07 PM

Thank you... ...and a 'bump' for yet more new info!
a b V Motherboard
August 30, 2009 10:40:40 PM

zeta_01 said:
Quote:
rocky chill out


I agree...This person is only spoiling everthing for everyone, with his relentless presence on every post by bilbat.


Just what am I spoiling?

Bilbat started this thread 7 weeks ago with a commitment to compile info and work with the parties to arrive at some solutions. In that 7 weeks he has done very little here - ignoring his commitment - while go off and spending time on many new posts by others.

Just what have I spoiled? Bilbat's failuire to come through has nothing to do with anything I posted. Why are you attacking me instead of the person who let every one down?

Any people with issues like those posted above should go, as I said long ago, to tweaktown where they have already helped people solve these issues and move on to overclocking. A lot of what little info bilbat has is just pilfored from that site.

I can't beleive you have not seen through his facade that has helped no one on this thread but only caused harm to those waiting for the help he said he would deliver and has not in 7 weeks.

I was planning not to respond again to this thread - but since another has made a totally bogus criticism I choose to respond to it.

Please Zeta - explain how I have spoiled everything for everyone. What did I spoil? How did I do it?

You further state that I have "relentless presence on every post by bilbat." Well that is obviously a bogus claim since bilbat posted 12 times on this thread to my 5 - so your statement is flat wrong. My first post did not occur until 11 days after the thread started - and 7 days after bilbat's last post. He was obviously providing no support like he said he would for those whose info he requested. I simply posted to suggest the deserted parties might find some help at tweaktown - where people already had gotten help on the same issues. What was wrong with that Zeta?

I did not post again for 4 weeks - until bilbat came back after another 5 week delay to claim he was still workingon the problem. He provided no helpful information - nothing - just a claim he was reading a lot of data that might sometime be helpful. Apparently he saw nothing wrong in leaving everyone hanging. I responded by pointing out this is not what people expected when he originally said he was going to help. Again what was wrong with that?

Then bilbat responded with a long post including pictures of his car and flat out stating " - oh hec with it. If you are foolish enought to support bilbat after he has mislead people and attack me for only redirecting posters to where they can really get some help and calling bilbat on his abuse of others then you two deserve each other.
a c 177 V Motherboard
August 30, 2009 11:32:39 PM

:pt1cable:  :cry:  :kaola:  :pt1cable:  :cry:  :kaola:  :pt1cable:  :cry:  :kaola: 
Somebody, please - shoot me!
August 31, 2009 1:21:44 AM

bilbat - will you marry me, and I want rocky to be my best man.
We can go to the church (Im old fashioned like that) in that nice car of yours.
a c 177 V Motherboard
August 31, 2009 1:49:51 AM

Hey, hey, hey - wait a minute here - I wouldn't even want to be rocky's ex-girlfriend; seems like definite stalker material to me!
a b V Motherboard
August 31, 2009 3:09:11 AM

bilbat said:
Hey, hey, hey - wait a minute here - I wouldn't even want to be rocky's ex-girlfriend; seems like definite stalker material to me!

Your childish attack only shows your own immaturity and poor judgement. But I know why you do it. Your actions have been deplorable and since you have no rational defense, you chose a petty bogus personal attack to try to deflect attention from actions - or lack of doing anything. Shame on you again.

My last couple of posts were long because I chose to focus on the facts and that takes a little space. You choose instead to make bogus personal attacks - which take little space. But they are just another example of your abusive behavior.

The bottom line is still the same - you lured people into posting here almost 2 months with a promise of a concerted effort to help them. Instead you then deserted them. You have done nothing to help - only slowed down their getting help from people that already knew how to deal with the problem. You promise hurt and bring harm. That is shameful.
a c 177 V Motherboard
August 31, 2009 4:45:32 PM

bilbat: ...hides eyes in shame... :kaola: 
August 31, 2009 5:42:09 PM

I have an interesting one that I can't quite seem to fix. But before I get into that, I will say this. Anyone who is willing to spend one minute helping another person out with a problem deserves a word of thanks. So here it comes...drum roll please! Thanks...in advance...of any help you can provide.

Model Name : GA-EX58-UD3R(rev. 1.6)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VGA Brand : EVGA Model : GTX 260 (216 core) Superclocked edition
CPU Brand : Intel Model : core i7 920 (D0) Speed : 3.1ghz
Operation System : XP Home SP3 32-bit
Memory Brand : Corsair XMS 3 Type : DDR3-1600 Model: TR3X6G1600C9
Memory Size : 6GB
Power Supply : Thermaltake Toughpower 700w

The computer runs stable, although a little hot for my tastes (64-68c on the cores via hardware monitor during Prime95.) Prime95 runs perfectly smooth for as long as I have run it (2 hours so far...I still haven't had the chance to really test for stability yet since we just got this system together, but everything seems to run fine.)

The problem comes when I want to reboot. XP shuts down fine, and the computer reboots, waits about 3-4 seconds and then begins to emit short continuous beeps (too fast to count, but I would say in the neighborhood of 20 or more.) The beeps will stop, wait about 3-4 seconds, and then loops with the same problem. I will shut the entire computer down, wait 20 seconds, boot back up and the same problem. Even if I switch the power supply switch on the back of the PS off, wait 5 seconds, and power back on, it will still do this.

The only way to get around this is to do a full shut down, wait a minute or two, and then boot back up. After doing some reading, it seems this is a "power failure" as defined by the Gigabyte motherboard manual. I would think if there were a "power failure" of some sort, this would present itself during Prime95 or 3dMark. I will note, however, that the power supply, while running Prime95 or 3dMark, is belching out loads of hot air. In fact, it's the hottest air coming out of the computer. So much so that I think I will make this computer my space heater come winter time.

Again, thanks in advance.
August 31, 2009 5:49:48 PM

Bilbat: So you should! Upsetting rocky like that.
a c 177 V Motherboard
August 31, 2009 6:26:50 PM

...as always - always welcome! Apparently, in his conception of the universe, rocky's 'sense of entitlement' does not allow for, or understand, someone doing things (that, hopefully benefit others) for their own purposes and aims, using their own methods, on their own schedule... 'Nuff said!

Well - lessee, you've got a 1.6 (wonderful, has the PCIe mod), which doesn't have the POST code LED (booh!); some of this may be helpful anyway:
http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/my-post-deleted-questio...
The one that jumps out at me is the PWM power failure item; wonder if it's possible that, once the PSU is already 'running hot' (and that's a really good PSU - shouldn't be problematic, unless you're running sixteen HDDs and a couple of USB desklamps - don't laugh, I ran into this here - someone with USB troubles, as he was drawing three times rated current from a port on which he had hung a DESKLAMP!) there is some kind of POST/power-up surge that is causing a rail to 'fold-back'; might be a good diagnostic to try reboots at various time intervals, allowing the PSU to 'heat' to varying levels...

In case it's some oddball memory compatibilty issue, you might try the BIOS posted above (FC), and try 'bumping' the PCIe frequency to say, 106 (not high enough, theoretically to affect anything else) and see if the troubles go away...
August 31, 2009 7:09:32 PM

bilbat said:
...as always - always welcome! Apparently, in his conception of the universe, rocky's 'sense of entitlement' does not allow for, or understand, someone doing things (that, hopefully benefit others) for their own purposes and aims, using their own methods, on their own schedule... 'Nuff said!

Well - lessee, you've got a 1.6 (wonderful, has the PCIe mod), which doesn't have the POST code LED (booh!); some of this may be helpful anyway:
http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/my-post-deleted-questio...
The one that jumps out at me is the PWM power failure item; wonder if it's possible that, once the PSU is already 'running hot' (and that's a really good PSU - shouldn't be problematic, unless you're running sixteen HDDs and a couple of USB desklamps - don't laugh, I ran into this here - someone with USB troubles, as he was drawing three times rated current from a port on which he had hung a DESKLAMP!) there is some kind of POST/power-up surge that is causing a rail to 'fold-back'; might be a good diagnostic to try reboots at various time intervals, allowing the PSU to 'heat' to varying levels...

In case it's some oddball memory compatibilty issue, you might try the BIOS posted above (FC), and try 'bumping' the PCIe frequency to say, 106 (not high enough, theoretically to affect anything else) and see if the troubles go away...


Thanks for the fast response. Very good info. Since this is dealing most likely with a power issue, I should have also listed the other equipment running in the rig. It's fairly basic, but this everything I can think of: 1 Velociraptor 300gb HD, 1 DVD-rw drive, Audigy 2 ZS sound card, internal USB memory card reader, 5 80mm fans.

I'm going to see if the reboot at different intervals changes anything. If not, I would like to try raising the PCIe frequency, then the BIOS update last. I get nervous updating the BIOS...I know...I'm a wuss, but I have had a bad experience in the past.

Something that really bothered me on this board is the setting that basically overclocks the multiplier from 20 to 21 on it's own. I mean kudos to Gigabyte for trying to give the uninitiated a boost in performance, but I started thinking I had changed a BIOS setting by accident! And then the auto CPU voltage was really messing with my temps.

I'll post back hopefully this afternoon with more info.
a c 177 V Motherboard
August 31, 2009 7:29:14 PM

Main thing with BIOS flashing is NOT to use @BIOS - flaky at best, a board-killer at worst! I'll post a how-to; just want to check whether anything in the 'canned' procedure needs changing fot the EX58s...
August 31, 2009 7:33:11 PM

bilbat said:
Main thing with BIOS flashing is NOT to use @BIOS - flaky at best, a board-killer at worst! I'll post a how-to; just want to check whether anything in the 'canned' procedure needs changing fot the EX58s...

True enough! I hadn't thought about things being different for the EX58 regarding BIOS flashing.
August 31, 2009 8:07:32 PM

Ok, so far, I have done a power up and boot into windows, then reboot without a problem.

Then, I let it boot into Windows for 2 minutes, then reboot, no problem.

After that, I let it boot into Windows and idle for 5 minutes. Still nothing.

I've tried it at 10 minutes as well. And nothing.

Now I have tried booting into Windows and running Prime95 for 2 minutes. Rebooted and the problems started. The reboot resulted in the mobo shutting down, starting up, rebooting itself a couple more times, and finally displaying a message that due to overclocking, it had reset the clock to stock settings.
a b V Motherboard
August 31, 2009 8:24:37 PM

bilbat said:
...as always - always welcome! Apparently, in his conception of the universe, rocky's 'sense of entitlement' does not allow for, or understand, someone doing things (that, hopefully benefit others) for their own purposes and aims, using their own methods, on their own schedule... 'Nuff said!.


And another bogus and childish personal attack based on his distortion of what was written. They just don't stop - shame on you again.

And Experimental - I join you in thanking those that help others. But show me one place where bilbat helped others on this thread in the almost two months prior to your arrival here. He promised to help a bunch of people and got them to post here then completely dropped the ball and left them hanging. Do you think that is helping or hurting people?

Zeta - you have not responded to my earlier question. What exactly was I spoiling for everyone and how did I do it? Please explain what your attack was based on. I have no idea what I spoiled or how I did it.

August 31, 2009 9:10:04 PM

rockyjohn said:
And Experimental - I join you in thanking those that help others. But show me one place where bilbat helped others on this thread in the almost two months prior to your arrival here. He promised to help a bunch of people and got them to post here then completely dropped the ball and left them hanging. Do you think that is helping or hurting people?


I know I have just joined these forums today, so I'm new here and everything. And I didn't intend on getting in any arguments; that's not the point of these forums. My intent is not to start waves. But it's not my job to point you anywhere.

Forums, like these, have the purpose of constructive and productive posts. Neither of which I have seen you post in this thread yet. So, to make this short, post something constructive or productive, or keep your thoughts to yourself.

Bilbat, the OP of this thread, can do as he pleases, as long as it's within the rules of this forum. If he so chooses to help me out, great! If he decide not to, I will move on until I get an answer that will solve my problem. But the fact is he has put forth time and effort...for free...for others. For you to come into this thread (his or her thread) and begin to personally bash bilbat...well my friend...it's not good.

So again, if you have something constructive to post, by all means, post it. But I don't want to see you post in this thread again till you do.

EDIT: Rocky - I do see your first post in this thread was helpful...and thank you for that. My mistake...please accept my apologies.
a c 177 V Motherboard
August 31, 2009 9:42:21 PM

Quote:
He promised to help a bunch of people and got them to post here

Let's keep it straight here - FIVE people - FIVE - compared to the eight to a dozen posts I work on daily; and, as I already pointed out, one of those appeared to have solved his own problem... FOUR people, who are (ostensibly) responsible for their own actions, their own purchases, and their own decision to 'wade into' technology that is obviously (and WAS obviously, from the pre-release reviews) in a 'beta' phase!

Quote:
What exactly was I spoiling for everyone

I can answer that idiotic confusion, as well. The last time I took a week or ten days off from helping here, was the last time we went around, and I spent the time analyzing whether doing this was worth the grief to me??

Again, obvious to everyone but you, if helping seems outweighed by emotional turmoil, I'm done!!

I am a crazy person; I am a congenital bipolar, not diagnosed until my mid-forties, by which time I had ruined my life with alcohol, drugs, hypersexuality, and all the the other peculiarities which all manic depressives are all too familiar with; the drugs available: a, threatened to kill me through liver toxicity; b, didn't work worth a damn, or c, left me in such a fog that I was of no use to myself, much less anyone else, so I was unable to consistently stick with them... Since then I have a drug that works, and at low enough dosages to not fog my mind; I have undergone CBT, and finally have an idea of what makes me tick. (By the way, Doctors Hershman and Lieb, in 'Manic Depression and Creativity' surmise that if one were to subtract all the manic-depressive geniuses throughout history, western civilization would be set back by roughly a hundred years...) I have learned to operate in accordance with philosophical principles I have adopted, stretching from Plato's "A is A", through the latest cognitive and Darwinian musings of Douglas Hofstadter, Daniel Dennett, and Richard Dawkins; you cannot 'shame' me, you don't get to 'pick' my methodology, my schedule, or any other #*^% that I DO! And, I will not take an extra antidepressant or antipsychotic, to 'cope' with grief dished out here, solely by YOU!!

Again, your 'sense of entitlement' seems (only to you!) to grant you all these powers - IT AIN'T SO!
a b V Motherboard
August 31, 2009 10:11:39 PM

Experimantal - All of my posts on this thread have been helpful. Don't you think it is helpful to suggest posters go where they can get help when they are not getting it here? Don't you think it is helpful to remind someone of commitments made to others that are not being kept?

For you to come to this thread and extol Bilbat after his atrocious abuse of other posters is not good. I ask the same question I asked you in my last post -

"And Experimental - I join you in thanking those that help others. But show me one place where bilbat helped others on this thread in the almost two months prior to your arrival here. He promised to help a bunch of people and got them to post here then completely dropped the ball and left them hanging. Do you think that is helping or hurting people?"

Please show me one place.

And you don't have to tell me the value of forums like these - I am an active participant and know it well. But don't attribute all those things to an individual poster on a thread where they are not only unearned but just the opposite - who has hurt people by deserting them after raising some expectation of help.

And I would like to have you show me one place where I have "personally bash" bilbat as you charge. All of my comments have been addressed to his behavior in deserting others or defending myself from his bogus attacks. He on the other had had been making personal attacks such as: "I wouldn't even want to be rocky's ex-girlfriend; seems like definite stalker material to me!" or "apparently in Rocky's sense of entitlement". Why do you tell me I have been bashing him when the opposiite is true?

But we can see your true colors coming out in other statements. Despite the fact that all I have done here is advocate for the posters that Bilbat ignored and abused - while doing absolutely nothing to help them - you state:

"But the fact is he has put forth time and effort...for free...for others.:" - Again I ask you to show one place he helped anyone on this thread in the two months prior to your arrival.

"So again, if you have something constructive to post, by all means, post it. But I don't want to see you post in this thread again till you do." Your childish command only prove your own belligerence and immaturity. I can see why you side with Bilbat - you are just like him.

But I would like to point out that this is a constructive post - constructive in pointing out how inaccurate and misleading earlier posters have been.

And you did not respond to a single legitimate point or question I raised before - instead you just launch into more bogus personal attacks like he did, as I have shown above. At least have the decency to respond to my questions before launching into another bogus personal attack on me. But we know why you don't - because my statements were accurate and any reasonable response to the questions I asked not only proved but showed how obvious and undeniable it was.

a b V Motherboard
August 31, 2009 10:32:30 PM

Bilbat - let me respond to your last post.

1. In response to my claim that you promised to help a bunch of people and got them to post here, you affirm it is true.

2. In response to my question "What exactly was I spoiling", you respond essentially it is my fault they might not get help even though all I did was state the truth that you had deserted the thread. The fault is not yours even though you a) let them down b) you were the one apparently getting upset just because I spoke the truth. Seems like you were clearly the one spoiling things not me. What happen to that Ann Ryand man that is his own man making his own choices? Suddently I am responsible for your feelings and actions even though all I have done is state the truth?

3. I am sorry if you are bipolar. I know it can be a debilitating disease - I have had some experience with a family member that had it. But your knowing of your disease should make you more aware of how you are prone to arrogance and lashing out at others and thus more careful in what you say.

4. And finally I say again, expecting someone to follow through on the expectations they raise in others does not mean I have some misguided sense of entitlement. Your constant ranting about this and that I am somehow asking you to grant me powers only shows how illogical your statements are.
August 31, 2009 11:52:45 PM

This thread is going nowhere but an endless argument between two people so I'm closing it. If the OP wants it re-opened they can PM me.
!