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Poor Nvidia

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March 28, 2009 11:30:41 PM

http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&ta...

They dont have any other ideas, so instead they will be coming out with the GTX 295 on 1 PCB instead of 2 bolted together.

Well, I guess that just means more money for ATI. lol jk



EDIT: btw, I just made the topic "Poor Nvidia" so that all the Nvidia fanboys would say "OH NO WHATS HAPPENING TO NVIDIA?!", and so that all the ATI fanboys would say "Oooh, time to beatdown those Nvidia fanboys", therefore giving me both sides of the graphics card enthusiasts :D .

More about : poor nvidia

a b U Graphics card
March 28, 2009 11:42:40 PM

Im thinking its more that the sandwich design is eol'd permanately. Theyll be using the newer GDDR5 in their next gen, so it wouldnt really make sense to use 2pcbs anymore, besides, theyre cutting costs every way they can, and a 2 pcb solution is more costly
March 28, 2009 11:49:03 PM

I seriously wonder if this is going to be a tad bit more power efficient than the 2 PCB design.........just wondering.


So will we probably expect to see some sort of alteration to the 4870X2?
Related resources
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 3:44:17 AM

I love how they extrapolate all kinds of FUD (which makes sense considering the source) from the fact Nvidia is fine tuning a product.
March 29, 2009 3:51:41 AM

Fudzilla is always anti-nvidia, its nothing new.

Anyways, the card should require significantly less power.
a c 172 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
March 29, 2009 4:01:33 AM

How is this poor Nvidia? They are (finally) coming out with a single PCB GTX295. This is a good thing for all involved. Should use less power and be cheaper to make.

The only part that sucks is they aren't introducing anything new/faster. If the TMSC 40nm process has the issues that it has, I don't see them making a 40nm chip any time soon, if at all. I really get the feeling that GTX295 is it, until they come out with their DX11 part. After all, why make a faster DX10 part, if it will be passed by the DX11 part only a few short months later?

My other question is if they NEVER developed a DX10.1 card, will their DX11 card be worth while? MS came up with the DX10 original spec, then dumbed it down after Intel and Nvidia whined. Neither company has built the things required for DX10.1 (AKA "real" DX10) while AMD has been toying with it since they built the Xenos so many years ago. I almost feel that Nvidia is going to fall far behind once we move to DX11, unless MS dumbs it down for them again. Time will tell.

For the sake of balance, I don't see AMD coming out with anything either. They will release the 4890, but that is possibly all we will see from them for DX10/10.1. I do believe we will see DX11 cards from them first, its a smaller step from 10.1 then from 10.
March 29, 2009 4:34:13 AM

I think the worldwide economy, and this "turn to green" wave is going to slow advancement all together. I wouldnt be suprised if these companies start moving towards a 12-15month cycle instead of the current 9 months or whatever it is.
March 29, 2009 5:27:58 AM

4745454b said:
For the sake of balance, I don't see AMD coming out with anything either. They will release the 4890, but that is possibly all we will see from them for DX10/10.1. I do believe we will see DX11 cards from them first, its a smaller step from 10.1 then from 10.


By the looks of it, we should be seeing ATIs first 40nm chip this year :) .
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 3:31:30 PM

zzf is right, the 770 is right around the corner, and it makes sense as well, going to 40nm with R700 and getting 75% power usage and possibly a slight dip in perf on the cheap. The gate widths were too small if I recall, going to 40nm, http://www.altera.com/literature/wp/wp-01058-stratix-iv... check fig. 2. Its what were facing in all things silicon, up the core speeds, heighten the leakage. Take measures to prevent the leakage, it slows the core speeds.
Anyways, 40nm will be here soon, and well see how high those clocks go. ATI releasing a mid level chip shows there is problems with the 40nm IMHO, but with LRB around the corner, neither nVidia nor ATI is going to be sitting on their hands
March 29, 2009 5:14:42 PM

The 4770 is probably the best card they have comming out of this. But, isnt there a "4850" rework comming that dosent require a power plug, or am i getting this mixed up with teh 4770?
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 5:25:52 PM

Sorta. Theyre the "same". Ive heard the 4770 is not only downsized, but has fewer trannys as well. Plus the narrower bus. Maybe what youre thinking about is a R700 refresh across the whole line, which has been a rumored release? Q3 I think it is, while R800 isnt due til Q4, but to me that makes no sense, tho theres been rumors.
IMHO, ATI needs to get out their mobile, and the 4770 is the result of that
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 5:27:43 PM

DX11 and LRB coming is throwing a wrench into the normal release dates/times methinks
March 29, 2009 5:28:53 PM

They are clearly leading Nvidia in the power area, thats for sure. I still cant believe we havnt seen an 8800GT without a plug.
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 5:41:07 PM

Going by tranny density alone from here (good article) http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=navclien...
Theres only a small difference in size between the 92b and the 48xx series, so shrinking the 4xxx series allows for power savings, and it allows for a perf increase as well. To me, ATI has divied that up pretty evenly with the 4770 going to 40nm. ATI has always held the process lead, or mostly as of late, and are reaping the benefits of it, especially when these mobiles come out, itll blow away nVidias cards for mobile.
nVidia needs to increase their tranny density IMHO, as its killing their yields, and trying to go 1 large monolithic core vs multi plays in the opposite direction as far as I can tell
March 29, 2009 6:04:19 PM

Isnt there already a mobile 4870?
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 6:06:03 PM

Yea, I think ACER even did a x2. But unless youre plugged, what, 15 minutes of play?
March 29, 2009 6:15:29 PM

Yea, some of those laptops are pretty stupid. If your laptop needs to be pluged in to game for more than 10 minutes than it completely eliminates the whole purpose of owning a laptop.
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 6:24:33 PM

Thats why the 4770 is a great alternative, as itll give full perf with decent power usage. You wont sacrifice anything, be it IQ, portability and perf. nVidia has stretched the g92 too far, tho Im thinking they really didnt expect the perf that came from R700, and thought they could ride this one out. I remember reading this from a good source back in February last year, and no one really knew how the R700 would perform, and since I do favor ATI, it was a bit disheartening hearing this, but things did change, and quickly
March 29, 2009 6:53:01 PM

Or they could do a hybrid, making it portable for work and basic use by using integrated, and plugged in for heavy gaming. I mean you could game in power saving mode, but it would need to be older games:)  Since the VIdeo card down clocks.
March 29, 2009 8:10:15 PM

Single pcb 295..What took them so long! I have no fondness for multi-gpu cards (ala compact CF/SLI designs) but everything on one pcb makes alot more sense.
March 29, 2009 8:28:35 PM

spathotan said:
The 4770 is probably the best card they have comming out of this. But, isnt there a "4850" rework comming that dosent require a power plug, or am i getting this mixed up with teh 4770?


If im not mistaken, the 4770 will be replacing the 4850, and the 4750 will be replacing the 4830......is that right?


Quote:
Single pcb 295..What took them so long! I have no fondness for multi-gpu cards (ala compact CF/SLI designs) but everything on one pcb makes alot more sense.


The 4870X2 was on 1 PCB from the beginning :) 



They have come out with the 4860 (its 40nm :D ), so maybe that will help all of you laptop gamers.
March 29, 2009 8:31:22 PM

no the 4870 512 was 1 pcb, the 1 gig came after the 4870 X2;) :lol: 

So think of the 260 GTX as the 4870 512, and the 275 GTX as the 4870 1 gig

oh and I question the thread title as well:)  Its not like its a bad idea for a card, costs less than the 280 GTX, and looks like it might perform more, when both tested at stock.


:hello: 

To OP, I saw ur edit lol, so you want a flame fest and not an informative thread?

Good luck:)  :pt1cable:  :pt1cable:  :pt1cable:  :pt1cable: 
March 29, 2009 8:34:34 PM

Ive seen the 4860 pop up on a few charts, but ive yet to actually see it in stock anywhere. ATI is getting just as bad as Nvidia when it comes to these card names. I mean is there really a need to wedge a card between the 4850 and 4870? No, there isnt.
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 10:34:43 PM

spathotan said:
Ive seen the 4860 pop up on a few charts, but ive yet to actually see it in stock anywhere. ATI is getting just as bad as Nvidia when it comes to these card names. I mean is there really a need to wedge a card between the 4850 and 4870? No, there isnt.


I agree there isn't a need, however if Nvidia release a card at every 10mhz step then ATI have to follow suit.
March 29, 2009 10:47:27 PM

ATI has to why?

they been fine with the 4850 and 4870 so far, why are you defending their wrong move?

Its been a plus for them that they haven't followed Nvidia, every1 agreed that its what made them look innovative in the public's eye. Now they do it, and they are still angels.

You can't close your eyes, and be blind to the fact that ATi is doing a wrong move as well with that card.

It really sounds stupid when you blame a company for what the OTHER company is doing.

Well Intels doing it, so that means I have 2 do it.

It works out worse for the 2nd company that did it, when Nvidia did it, every1 was pissed and I agreed 2, but seeing ATI do makes me think they know it pisses us off, they just don't care.

So stop blaming the green cuz u like red, and vice versa.
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 11:34:04 PM

If the 4890 eols the 4870, and the 4860 eols the 4850, its just like the old days, 1900 to 1950. I dont have a problem with that, depends on when you upgrade is all. 280 to 285, so what? Theyve always done this
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 11:35:43 PM

Quote:
ATI has to why?

they been fine with the 4850 and 4870 so far, why are you defending their wrong move?


Who makes more money on gpu's? Nvidia or ATI?

Who makes the best gpu's on p/p?

How do you beat your opponent when they try to confuse the market by releasing so many cards, half of which are rebadged?

ATI needs to beat Nvidia at their own game. Nvidia will pull out every dirty trick they know in order to stay in the game, and ATI are out to finish them in the same way that Nvidia have been trying to finish ATI for the past 3-4 years.

a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 11:44:26 PM

Theres practically no discernable die size between 92b and R700. Now, ATI is cranking up the 700 series like nVidia has been doing for a year with the G92s, simple as that
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 11:51:16 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Theres practically no discernable die size between 92b and R700. Now, ATI is cranking up the 700 series like nVidia has been doing for a year with the G92s, simple as that


ATI have the bottom-mid range completely sown up, just like Nvidia did 1 year ago.

The difference is, ATI won't blow $millions on stuff that is an attempt to put their competitor out of business. That's what Nvidia did - that's what physx and cuda is all about. ATI just need the money to continue releasing great cards, and by doing that they will put Nvidia out of business anyway because Nvidia are self destructing and only need a competitor that doesn't do the same.

What you say there is completely true btw. ATI will have the bottom-mid range sown up entirely for the next year because Nvidia only have the huge 200 die and there is no way that will ever scale downward like the g92 did. That's why they are going for the same approach as ATI with the 40nm chips. The day of the monolothic chip is over and Nvidia are basically starting from scratch. For their sake, it better be a small miracle.
March 29, 2009 11:55:54 PM

ATI will not put Nvidia out of business nor will Nvidia do the same to ati. Both manufactures make way too much money for this to happen. That's like saying AMD will put Intel out of business.
a b U Graphics card
March 29, 2009 11:59:59 PM

nVidia is taking a calculated risk, and maybe their only alternative by having physx and CUDA, as its a growing market, I believe, and LRB and Intel will bite into margins/marketshare. Chipsets will be hinderered, gpu sales as well, by things such as SoCs. As Ape would put it, is CUDA and physx a deal breaker? Not any more than DX10.1, but its also nice to have. People arent buying nVidia simply for CUDA or physx, and wont, not the vast majority.
March 30, 2009 12:13:11 AM

AMD's rebound, thats a small miracle. Nvidia just needs an innovation.

Remember the stats, which owns most of the market in ppl's household. Nvidia, since they have a bigger advantage because of the Laptop industry as well.

I wish em both well, because we can't live with out either.

Neither of them are doing anything of interest 2 me, which is performance.

ATM

a b U Graphics card
March 30, 2009 12:15:25 AM

jennyh said:
ATI have the bottom-mid range completely sown up, just like Nvidia did 1 year ago.

The difference is, ATI won't blow $millions on stuff that is an attempt to put their competitor out of business. That's what Nvidia did - that's what physx and cuda is all about. ATI just need the money to continue releasing great cards, and by doing that they will put Nvidia out of business anyway because Nvidia are self destructing and only need a competitor that doesn't do the same.

What you say there is completely true btw. ATI will have the bottom-mid range sown up entirely for the next year because Nvidia only have the huge 200 die and there is no way that will ever scale downward like the g92 did. That's why they are going for the same approach as ATI with the 40nm chips. The day of the monolothic chip is over and Nvidia are basically starting from scratch. For their sake, it better be a small miracle.

G200b is almost 500mm² While the R700 is under 275 mm² , so it doesnt rocket surgeon to figure out whos bleeding profits here.
March 30, 2009 12:24:31 AM

lets face it L1qu1d when your up against a underhanded company like nvidia it must be hard not to play dirty, im just glad that ATI is fighting back and we can now pick up good cards cheap
a c 172 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
March 30, 2009 12:25:25 AM

Quote:
ATI releasing a mid level chip shows there is problems with the 40nm IMHO,


I (slightly) disagree with this. Remember that when you come out with a new high end card that if you also move to a new manufacturing process that introduces two new things. If there is something wrong, you don't know if its because of the process or the new card. Its easier/smarter to put the new highend card on the older process, that way you know its only the card if you encounter problems. (midrange cards aren't as complex, so they are safer to test on a new process.) This also gives you the added benefit of offering a refreash on the highend once you move it to the newer process and can offer faster speeds. I've heard the rumors about TMSCs 40nm and in no way am I claiming that it doesn't have any problems, I'm just not convinced that AMDs decision to put a midrange card on 40nm is a bad sign. Test the new process with a smaller/simpler card, then bring it to your card family.

Quote:
Nvidia only have the huge 200 die and there is no way that will ever scale downward like the g92 did.


Mostly correct. They could disable more SP and bring it down, with the rumors about their yields I wonder why they haven't done that. I suspect it has everything to do with how wonderful the g92 is, and the "poor" performance of the original GTX260. Going from what I remember, the GTX260 wasn't much faster then the 9800GTX. (20%, sometimes even less.) If you disable another group or two, it might be only as fast or even slower then the 9800GTX. And because the die is smaller, its cheaper to make the 9800GTX then the "GTX240". Nvidia blew it when they came out with the GTX series, lets hope they learned a bit when their DX11 parts arrive.
March 30, 2009 12:36:40 AM

BTW poor OP
a b U Graphics card
March 30, 2009 12:38:33 AM

I agree its a test chip at 40nm as well as an early intro chip for their mobile solutions as well. It doesnt make alot of sense to move to 40nm for a few reasons. The economy, its more costly, riskier and with DX11 and a whole new arch coming, its too much all at once for just a simple shrink, unless you are getting a jump on things like how your former process scales, and also moblie.
Each shrink we see from now on, at least until theres a bonafide HKMG alternative, or HKMG itself, is even more riskier than in the past. Its not like cpus, where they spend over twice as long before a new arch comes about. And yes, even tho the true arch hasnt changed from the G80 to the G280, or the R600 to the R700, it does have to be alot more flexable than a cpu
March 30, 2009 4:29:59 AM

L1qu1d said:
:hello: 

To OP, I saw ur edit lol, so you want a flame fest and not an informative thread?

Good luck:)  :pt1cable:  :pt1cable:  :pt1cable:  :pt1cable: 


It was more of a bait and switch :D 


Quote:
BTW poor OP


It's not as if I MADE you post here, so get off my back.
March 30, 2009 12:23:42 PM

"BTW poor OP" wasn't an insult from rangers. I don't think that's what he intended.

But that's my opinion.
March 30, 2009 2:48:24 PM

Your half right, well your a quarter right. Nvidia isn't in trouble, as a company its richer than AMD/ATI (well atleast the ATI division), Don't forget that AMD needs to compete against Intel and Nvidia, and it was losing to both for a while. AMD's money problem was MUCH greater than Nvidia's now.

Don't forget this isn't a dick measuring contest, its more of p/p contest, and AMD is winning, but don't count out either company. Don't forget that AMD's stock plummeted about a month ago.

As for your Nvidia chipset being uninformed, thats a stupid way of saying it, seeing as not all of us can put down cash for the new i7s CPUs, which forces us to buy DDR3 ram, new board etc, and with the old CPUs we need to be doing sli so we need the Nvidia chipsets. Yes they suck, every1 knows it, but don't think that we don't need them ATM for older CPUs. So its not about being uninformed, its about not having the means to use the Intel Chipsets. :non: 

But you were right about 1 thing, the 4860 is a Mobility card:
http://ati.amd.com/products/mobilityradeonhd4800/4860_i... which is replacing the 4830 mobility if I'm not mistaken.

a b U Graphics card
March 30, 2009 3:11:54 PM

So really, the 4860 is a card that fits nicely in between the 4850 and 4870. More powerful than a 4850, less powerful than a 4870 and a name to suit.

What was it Nvidia called their latest mobile gpu? Oh yeah it was the 280M if i'm not mistaken. About as powerful as a 9800gtx I believe...

Just lay off trying to suggest that ATI are like Nvidia when it comes to naming cards. One company tries to name their cards in a way that the end user can make sense of, the other attempts deceit at every opportunity because that is the only way they can sell their inferior products.
March 30, 2009 3:19:46 PM

280M is a die shrink, overclocked and more SPs. I believe...
Don't forget that ATI owns almost nothing of the Laptop industry, it might one day, but not right now.

as for your last comment, yes 1 company is playing it safe for the recession and the other is throwing risks. Which would u prefer?:) 

Fanboyism gets you know where, just clouds your judgment, this isn't about whos the better company, its just who brings out the card for you.

Mark my words, ATi shuts down, Nvidia boys will be crying, and if ATI shuts down well its the same thing.

I'll be in here laughing at the ppl that worshiped either company to the end.:)  Frankly I'm about to let go of both, and stick to console gaming. Can't really tell the difference from a far, its cheaper, With the ps3 having a second launch now, the dev kit that puts more power in it, and stealing 360s games, it should be a good year.

Ati and Nvidia suck, its just that ppl need to pick a side, only smart ones are down the middle, who can see both faults.
March 30, 2009 3:31:33 PM

so ATI are going to shut down twice L1qu1d
a b U Graphics card
March 30, 2009 3:31:41 PM

Liquid no offence meant but actually claiming to be 'down the middle' when every post you make reeks of Nvidia fanboism is just laughable.

At least I admit I cannot stand Nvidia because of their abhorrent business practice. Why anyone would want to defend this company is beyond me.
March 30, 2009 3:37:58 PM

yes i feel the same way, its not that i like ATI its that i hate nvidia's business practice, and that does not make me a fanboy
a b U Graphics card
March 30, 2009 4:00:50 PM

I wouldnt defend the 280M debacle. Thats even bad renaming.
March 30, 2009 10:39:04 PM

Jaydee I aint defending the 280m, I'm just saying its been changed, its not a new card, neither is it the old.

I def don't route for either, I just tend to push the company that needs to be pushed. When I see ppl talking about Nvidia with high pride and give no facts, I push ATI in their face. And the same for ATI.

I'm not a team player, I just like shattering fanboy's dreams. Its just that if something doesn't fit my logic I won't just agree with the public. I'll try to play the devil's advocate if its necessary.

Saying that I make my choices based on business practices is an idiotic thing. Seeing as I want top single GPU, Nvidia is my route. I don't want to be a little cry baby and go to the other company because its morally right.

I go to the company I need, I don't go for green or red because the colors are appealing.

In order for me to tickle both my fancies, I buy ATI + Nvidia.

All these stupid posts on company morals, well its annoying, like a thread hippy. My god get over what these companies are doing, and get what you need.

Though I do have a question, Nvidia is screwed why?

Please answer I actually want to know:) 

March 30, 2009 10:43:57 PM

Jennyh your talking about fanboyism?

Remember your post a while back?

"it will be better than the 285 GTX because its Ati, why would they make it?" Something like that?

Moving on.
a b U Graphics card
March 30, 2009 11:46:52 PM

I'm still not sure what gives you the idea that I'm claiming not to be an ATI fangirl? :p 

I do take issue with you pretending to be 'the middle ground' when everybody here knows you are the biggest Nvidia fanboy on the forum. I mean really liquid, pull the other one lol.

March 31, 2009 12:06:50 AM

yes indeed, proves how ignorant you are;)

You think what you want, I'll think what I want:) 

And sorry, didn't mean to call u a boy, I know how bad that is ha.

!