My First Build - A little Advice Please :-)

[cpatuzzo]

Hey there, I'm new here, thanks in advance.

>> Read my post down below, he offered me a slight change in the deal to accomodate RAID. <<

I'm from the UK and thinking of buying this bundle from ebay: Link

I'm planning on building a gaming rig and figured the high speed dual cores are probably still better than the low speed quads. Is this a fair assumption?

I'm not too interested in SLI, but I would like to set up a RAID configuration. Would this board support it?

Is the RAM the fastest the board can support, if it's not, will this make a great deal of difference?

I've not sorted out a PSU yet, if I get this bundle and set up perhaps four 7200rpms in RAID, and a reasonably fancy GPU, what kind of PSU wattage should I be looking for?

Anyway thanks a lot for any help. As I say, I'm new to this, but I've been interested in a long time. Cheers.

 

[njxc500]

Looks like a pretty solid deal for around $250 US.

However, it doesn't support raid. You would need a separate controller.

Brings me to my next point.

IT ONLY HAS ONE X16 SLOT.

This is no good, I don't care about SLI either, but many RAID cards use this, not to mention numerous other things. You would be better off finding a motherboard with an ich10r southbridge. even an 8 or 9 would be better. Intel adds an "R" on the southbridge model number for Raid controllers. thus an ich9R would have raid capability.

I like Gigabyte.


As for the rest, the processor is solid, and the memory is a bit slow, but I run 800, don't think it makes too much difference.

 

[xaira]

once ram is at 800 mhz, anything above that makes little difference

 

[cpatuzzo]

I've emailed the seller and he offered to provide an alternative.

"this board doesnt support raid but i can provide an alternate asus board that will. probably p5ql se for an extra £30"

I don't really know much about motherboards and I was hoping someone could indicate whether this would be a good deal or not. njxc500 mentioned that it needs more X16 slots, does this board have that?

The total price would come to £225 (inc p&p). I'm quite happy to pay a little extra than buying everything seperately seeing as he fits the cpu, sink and fan for me. Just wondering whether it's worth it? Is RAID really going to boost the system significantly?

Thanks a lot, great help so far!

 

[Major7up]

You don't need twp X16 slots if the raid controller is integrated into the mobo but opting for one that does have two gives you more headroom and options. Also, what is it that you hope to accomplish by having a RAID setup? You mention a boost to the system but it really depends on your desired application. Are you looking for data redundancy or just more space. My office system is setup for redundancy since work data is very important. What do you plan to use raid for?

 

[Major7up]

It occurred to me that it may help you to define the two RAID types you are likely to employ, RAID 0 and RAID 1.

RAID 0 - Allows you to create an array of disks in which data is striped. This essentially has the effect of making 2 or more smaller disks act as one larger disk. Of course if one drive fails, your data across all drives is lost.

RAID 1 - Allows you to create an array in which 2 or more disks mirror each other to protect against drive failure. For greater protection your can use RAID 5 with parity but these are complex to setup correctly.

If you just want a gaming machine your best bet is to get a fast drive such as a velociraptor for your OS and games (no raid) and a larger slower drive for other data. For example, my system has a 300GB Velociraptor to run Windows and my games and a 500GB disk for data (my important docs, music, videos etc). Then I have nightly backups to a NAS with 3 terabyte disks in Raid 5. Note that my system itself has no raid setup at all.

 

[cpatuzzo]

Hmm, I was just planning on setting up a RAID0, or RAID5 for the read and write speeds thinking that it would greatly improve gaming, but I like your suggestion of simply buying a high speed drive and not worrying about it.

Assuming I'm no longer using RAID, would the bundle that he's selling be OK? Will one X16 slot suffice if I'm not using RAID? I've heard a lot about PCI-express for gaming cards, is that what an X16 slot is? Will I be able to run the latest GPUs on the board?

Thanks a lot so far, you've been really helpful.

 

[Major7up]

Yes the X16 indicates that the slot is PCI-express. These come in different bandwidths for different devices. My motherboard has 4 PCI express slots, one is X16, two are X8 and one is X1. X16 slots give you the highest bandwidth out of the lot and running the latest GPU's will really depend on factors other than your motherboard such as the amount of physical space in your case and the power supply you choose. Bottom line is the motherboard will take any of the latest cards. Also, if you consider any other Motherboards (seen a few ASUS boards that do this), some boards will indicate that they are 32X. There is currently no 32X PCI-E slot and this refers to two X16 slots for running SLI. The setup you are considering seems fairly priced but I think you could find a better deal if you keep looking around. You are across the pond as they say, so I don't know where you guys would shop online for parts but I usually watch newegg here for combo deals that I like. You get better parts overall in the end in my opinion but as I said, it is not a bad deal for what is offered. Also, to answer your question about PSU wattage, if you plan on only having a single card then something in the neighborhood of 600-700 watts should be more than adequate. There are plenty of good and inexpensive options in that segment. If you would like to learn more about PCI-E you can read this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express

 

[Major7up]

I forgot to mention, that setting up raid won't give you any boost in terms of gaming. Having a good graphics system and lots of memory will have a far greater impact, but choosing a velociraptor as your storage medium is a good choice. If you have the money to blow, a solid state disk is best for read speed, but sizes and cost make them impractical to the average users yet.

 

[thomasxstewart]

if its your 1st, start with set top box, its jsut to complex orchestra to bash around in, unless you wish to lose plenty of hardware.

next id its vista, you probably dont want raid, its too fast. want 4 corees, as spped increase is not guarentee if system don't have nutz to prove it. buy long lasting stufv first, case, power supply & monitor/keyboard/mouse, HDD. finsally order memory, cpu & lastly mainboard. then work in static free enviorment, as best as you have,
do not touch parts, use latex gloves, assemble & have o/s ready, plug in minimum to start it, before install o/s put all hdd you can fit in. if theres no integrated out to monitor, you'll need card, from cheap monitor type. expensive card to start just adds to problems.

make sure your packed with hhd upon activation, as thats only thing you cann't add only take away.

its not easy, & its likely your have to replace lots of parts before you jniow how & internet will help wreck it too. have dsl line already to go too, ot dial up modem & install disc, to get updates. inatll all drivers that fit. hgave speakers plugged in & do audio, GO SLOW, for gods sake, computer can take minutes or even hours. take all languabe packs, split hdd into 200+ gb sectors. by time you day into it want tech to do it, they'll strip machine put in worn parts steal bios 7put in corrupt one laugh AT you & break it, saying sorry. No Refund, No Return till you pay.

its horrible induustry, one closer to michael jacksons mysterious death & planning of fraudulent others than simple fun ads proclaim, thats why set top box be best start, even thats very hsrd.

SignedHYSICIAN THOMAS STEWART von DRASHEK M.D.

 

[cpatuzzo]

I think I'm going to go for that deal then. I was just wondering whether having 4GB or RAM is enough though? I don't think it's possible to put 8GB into that motherboard, is this an issue? I want to use the computer for gaming.

 

[Major7up]

If you plan to use WinXP then having more than 4GB is utterly pointless as it won't use more than 3.43GB or something like that. If you plan to install Vista or Win 7 then it could be beneficial. In terms of a gaming machine today though, 4GB is more than plenty. Having more would really only benefit your ability to multi-task without having to swap data back and forth to your HDD. You did ask another question that was not yet answered which is in regard to memory speed. The memory in this bundle is DDR2800 but supports up to 1066. This can make a difference albeit not a major one. You can find a plethora of Tom's articles regarding this. It really is a matter of price vs performance. The more you spend the better you get but start to enter the land of diminishing returns. If you are not looking to spend a lot then this looks a great place to start for a first build but consider in your next one to allow for headroom to grow (maybe an SLI/crossfire board even if using one card initially). My experience is that I will go through 2 or 3 generations (depending on how fast new ones come out) of cards on one mobo/mem/proc setup before starting over.

 

[obsidian86]

this should be enough power http://www.ebuyer.com/product/127861

 

[cpatuzzo]

I've never oc'ed before, but would that combo be alright for it? I've seen people have been able to squeeze 4GHz out of it, I was hoping for a modest 3.4 or 3.6? Also, that seems quite expensive for a PSU? Isn't there a cheaper alternative? Thanks.

 

[Major7up]

This combo is not one I would recommend if you want to overclock your components. Since this is your first build I would caution you to jump in overclocking and also, overclocking can shorten the useful life of your stuff. I think that you would be better off just spending your time, energy and money on better components if you have the cash to spare. That power supply would be good for what you want but you can shop around to find a better price or another brand.

 

[obsidian86]

wait a few weeks 775 sockets prices gonna hit rock bottom when i5 is out

 

[geofelt]

I can't speak to the value, my currency is $, but the combo is good for gaming.
A E8400 should be able to deliver good gameplay with any reasonable graphics configuration. You might want to read this article, and look at the benchmarks which were done with a E8400:
http://www.guru3d.com/index.php?page=vga_charts A fast dual core is good for the vast majority of games. Only if the game is both cpu limited, and multi(3+) core enabled would a quad be better. FSX and supreme commander are such games. It is not hard to overclock a bit if you want, but you will not see much benefit if your base speed is already 3.0 or better.

Decide which monitor you will be using, and pick a vga card accordingly. If you can, look to a 1920 x 1200 resolution which will be a 24" monitor. A GTX275 or 4890 will give you very good results at that resolution.

Such a single card will require a quality unit in the 550watt range with two pci-e 6 pin connectors. I would recommend a PC P&C silencer610 or a Corsair 620 or 650 watt unit. Those units give you a little extra headroom so that you could handle a high end dual gpu card if you ever wanted to upgrade.

There is generally no real world(vs. synthetic transfer rate benchmarks) performance advantage to raid of any kind.
Go to www.storagereview.com at this link: http://faq.storagereview.com/tiki-index.php?page=SingleDriveVsRaid0
There are some specific applications that will benefit, but
gaming is not one of them. The velociraptor is a very good drive, but it does come at a price premium. You can equal it's speeds by getting a large 1tb drive and use only the fastest 20% of the drive. The outer cylinders of such a drive are denser, so more data is transferred during each of the 7200 rpm revolutions. The WD caviar black 1tb is such a drive, and the seagate 7200.12 is even a bit faster. They will cost half of what a velociraptor will cost.

X16 vs. X8 is a non issue unless you are using a high end dual gpu card like the GTX295. Even then, the difference in real FPS is likely to be <2%. Don't pay extra for it. Don't worry about pcie1 or 2 etc... Cards are forward and backward compatible. Only if you are using the top cards could it make more than a 3% difference in FPS.

In the same vein, faster ram does not scale well. There is less than 3% difference in FPS between the fastest low latency ram, and ordinary speed ram. Don't pay extra for fast ram. Only if you are looking at maximum overclocks could it be useful. Do get 4gb, regardless of the 32 or 64 bit OS. I would favor the 64 bit os. No games will use more than 2 or 3gb, but more ram insulates you from interference by other tasks. Here is a study of 2gb vs. 4gb:
http://www.corsair.com/_appnotes/AN804_Gaming_Performance_Analysis.pdf

I would suggest that you download the manual for the motherboard and case. Read them cover to cover, and you will know what is involved in building it yourself. It's not so hard, and you can ask questions here.

---good luck---

 

[Major7up]

geofelt mentioned the Corsair 650 watt psu, which I have and works great on my second machine. The only thing I personally dislike about it is that it is not a modular PSU but that is only a minor complaint. geofelt also echoed what I was saying about raid. You really don't need it for your application, get a single faster drive instead and put as much as you can into a really good graphics card.

 

[cpatuzzo]

Before I post I wanted to say how very grateful I am so far. You've helped me so much.

First thing I wanted to say was I'm on a budget. So I'm trying to cut costs here and there, but I don't want to bottleneck the system or wear out components too quickly. I'm not too bothered about upgrading. I figured I'd run this into the ground then when I'm in full time employment in three years or so I'll invest in a new computer.

Therefore, I'd like to ask about PSUs first. You suggested a few with the understanding of providing a little "headroom" in case I'd upgrade. Assuming I'm not going to upgrade anything major, maybe I'll put an SSD in when they come down in price, which PSU would you recommend? Is something like this going to run my system, which is about half the price of the others suggested so far? If not, is there a budget choice? Someone mentioned above that I should concentrate on putting as much money as possible into the GPU so I'm trying to buy to that strategy.

Secondly, HDDs. I realise now that I was being way too ambitious with that whole RAID business, and I think the Velociraptor HDDs look amazing, but they're just far too expensive for my budget. If I get a regular 7200rpm drive, maybe 250gb ~ 500gb, is the PC going to suffer. How would something like this perform, or would it bottleneck? I'm not really into storing loads and loads so I figured I could save a bit of money there. If a 7200rpm will be ok can you suggest a budget drive? If not, is there such a thing as a budget 10000rpm drive? What's your opinion on two drives, one for high speed applications and the OS, and the other, slower drive, for data?

Graphics cards. I already have my monitor. It's technically an HDTV which runs natively at 1920x1080 in 21.6 inches. I'm expecting to spend a lot here, but I'm hoping as the resolution is slightly smaller than those you expected for your recommended cards that a cheaper alternative will suffice to run games at a reasonably high fps, although I am prepared to spend the majority here. Also, my monitor has no DVI port, is this an issue? It has a VGA and HDMI, do cards come with these outputs? I'm assuming VGA is pretty common. You mentioned two cards, the GTX275 and the 4890. They look to be about equally priced. If you'd still recommend these cards then which is considered the best and would be the logical buy?

RAM. I'm hoping to run Windows 7 x64 Professional on it. My university has given me a copy free, which I think is pre-release and still in beta, but it transfers to a full version when it's formally released (lucky me). You said there shouldn't be an issue with 4 gigs of RAM, does this still apply? I would assume it would?

I have a large case, it's the Cooler Master Centurion 590. I've noticed a lot of the motherboard bundles I've looked at are microATX like the G31 and I was wondering if it's just stupid putting one into a large case (waste of space). I'd rather be putting a larger board in, which is probably a bit more, but with greater features right? Also, is it viable to use onboard graphics until I can save (and the prices drop) on the GPU. I only intend to be using it to play Warcraft 3 immediately after building (I'm a DotA addict) which is years and years old. I'm hoping to be able to play Diablo 3 at full settings when it's released however. Do motherboards still have onboard graphics (stupid question)?

EDIT: Before I forget, someone mentioned the i5 coming out soon and that the E8400 would drop in price and therefore the bundles. I was hoping to have a fully complete system in six weeks time. Should I be buying this last minute then? How much do you expect they will drop in price?

Anyway, I realise I've asked a lot there and I'm very appreciative of this forum. Thanks so far, you've been a great help.

 

[geofelt]

Prices will drop over time. Keep up with what is new and good, and buy close to when you need things.
You can shop for a case and psu early, they do not change much.

The important thing about a psu is quality. PC P&C, Corsair, Seasonic, and Antec are of good quality. Here is a tiered list of psu quality: http://www.eggxpert.com/forums/thread/323050.aspx A good quality 550 watt psu with two pci-e 6 pin connectors will do the job for all but the strongest cards. Look for a good buy. A psu operates most efficiently in the middle of it's range. It is not bad to have one that has a little bit of headroom. A psu that needs to operate at it's maximum will spin up the cooling fan and be noisy.

To save a bit on a case, look at the Antec 300. It has superb ventilation, and will hold all your parts and then some. If you have to cut costs, the case is a good place to start.

There are supposed to be vga card announcements within a month. You might want to wait and see what they offer. Same with i5 an P55 announcements. For the most part, you get what you pay for in video cards. The market is very competitive. Most cards come with a dvi to vga adapter, and perhaps a hdmi adapter. You should have no problem with a 1080P monitor. Your gaming performance is primarily gated by the power of your vga card, particularly at higher resolutions. A card faster than the GTX275 or 4890 gets you rapidly diminishing returns and is useful only if you have a 2560 x 1600 monitor. I would not go the integrated graphics route. Your gaming will be unsatisfactory. A micro motherboard is OK if you do not need many open slots for things such as TV cards or other attachments.

There is not much difference in price between a 500gb or 1tb HDD. I would get the larger one if possible. There will be very little difference in gaming. The 1tb drive will probably load levels a bit faster but it is not that important.

Windows-7 64 bit will be excellent, particularly for your price. With 4gb, it will run better than the 32 bit variant which can see only about 3.5gb.

 

[Major7up]

Listen to geofelt on the psu, I have seen far too many systems suffer from poor quality psu's and then the owner can't figure out why his system won't boot (blaming the motherboard or ram). I am not suggesting that you spend a lot on a psu, but don't buy a cheap one or you are likely to regret it. On the hard drive issue, there are two way you can go. While a raptor is faster, the increase in speed is not enormous and only will affect load times of games, not actual gameplay itself. Therefore, you can choose a cheaper and slower drive to save cost at the expense of (slightly) greater load times. Since I am in the USA, I don't know where the best place is to look for parts for you, but I highly recommend just shopping around. Technically you could use a 5400rpm drive though 7200's are cheap enough that I would not give them a look, assuming they still exist out there. The other option is that you buy an older raptor if you can find one. They came out originally as 36GB and then later 75GB. The current sizes are 150 and 300GB I think. But to put you OS on and some games, the older models should be just fine and not expensive. Don't look too hard though, if you see a 7200 rpm drive that you like, get it. I would look at the following brands: Western Digital, Seagate, Hitachi etc.


Actually I just took a break and found these two at at uk site:

1) Seagate 500GB for about ~34 pounds (~$57)
http://www.misco.co.uk/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=349065&CatId=2268


2) Western Digital 1TB for about 50 pounds (~$84)
http://www.misco.co.uk/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=330263&CatId=2268

Both are about inline with prices here and quite reasonable. Found some old raptors but listed out of stock and way too high price for an old model anyway.

For power supply this should suffice on your budget but I would not go any lower than 500 watt. Also, this one could potentially be underpowered were you to get a graphics card with multiple GPU's although such a card is likely not in your budget. Since you will be using Win7, it will be able to handle all 4Gb and more if you add it later. As for your monitor, you may need an adapter (DVI to HDMI) if you want to use the HDMI cable, which I recommend but you could get by on VGA. Some cards will come with such an adapter so check them out before purchasing one.

 

[cpatuzzo]

Hey there, just a quick update.

I think I've decided on the Corsair 650W PSU. From what you guys have said and some reviews it looks fantastic and I'm happy to spend a little extra on a top quality product.

I'm thinking of going down the WD Caviar Black 1TB route. I looked at some speed comparisons and it seems to be one of the top performers for a reasonable price. Also, I've had WD products before and been very happy.

I'm almost certain I'm going for the E8400, but I need to do a little more research into motherboards and RAM before deciding about this. I'm not sure if I want to play it safe and go for a bundle yet, or go for my own custom board, e.g. I'd quite like built in wifi, that kind of thing which is hard to get in bundles.

For the GPU, I'm going for the GTX 275 I think. I've had both nvidia and geforce before and have generally preferred the nvidia product, although can't really give a solid reason why. I'm still confused as to which to choose as there seems to be a lot of the same thing, but by different makers. Could someone point me in the right direction there? Thanks.

As for a DVD burner yet, I'm thinking these must be dirt cheap now and I'll spend a few pounds extra and get a top speed reader and burner. Blu ray doesn't really appeal at the moment and this is a pretty easy replacement later anyway.

Anyway, thanks a lot again. I've spent hours and hours reading up your advice and cross checking products and benchmarks. Cheers.

 

[Major7up]

when you say you have had both nVidia and GeForce... did you mean ATI an nVidia cards? Or do you mean different vendors? nVidia has never directly produced a card but rather supplied vendors with it's chips. To help with your choice you may want to read up on the graphics card round-up here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/budget-radeon-geforce,2364.html

Also I am glad that you elected to get the Corsair 650. It is a wonderful PSU, though in my case I wish I had opted for the higher model that was modular.

 

[cpatuzzo]

Oh sorry, I meant I've had both nVidia and ATI before, wasn't thinking. I don't really know what you mean by modular? Is it something I should be looking for?

 

[Major7up]

A modular power supply allows you to install/link only the power cables/connectors that you need so you don't have to try pushing extra cables somewhere else in your case . Very handy but not a game changer. Here is a good example for you to look at:
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=521554

These usually cost more but I feel worth the cost given how many systems I've built. You will be fine without it, the Corsair 650 that you settled on is a great choice.