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Surge Protection

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June 8, 2009 3:56:20 PM

Hi!
Again i'm stuck with getting information out of the internet...

Recently I bought a UPS (PowerWare 5110) It has built in surge protection. I know separate surge protections sort of wear out over time. What about the built in protection? Is it built the same way as the stand alone ones? Do they wear out too?
And the second question is can I connect surge protected UPS to a stand alone surge protection?
Wall Outlet ---> stand alone surge protection ---> UPS with built in surge protection ---> PC

So I could could change the stand alone surge protection when needed and not the whole UPS?


Thanx

More about : surge protection

June 9, 2009 7:30:01 AM

Sorry, my english is not the best.

With built in i mean that allmost all UPSes today (also mine) have for example four surge protected outlets and four Battery Backup & Surge Protection Outlets. So what did I mean was that the ups has its own surge protection.
But what if I want to make my PC even more protected from surges and connect my UPS to a stand alone surge protection. These are around 30 euros devices that you can connect to your wall outlet and then connect something to that device and they will be surge protected.
Does the surge protection properties add up?

These stand alone surge protection devices will get old over time and do not offer good protection after about two years. Some suggest chenge them every year. What I mean is that does the UPS own device get old over time too. I dont want to buy new ups every year, its too expensive.

The protective properties are shown in Joules. Usually the stand alone devices have better numbers like close to 1000. Regular UPS (also mine) has about 450 Joules. So do I benefit if I connect the UPS to the stand alone surge protection device?


PS! Wall outlets are grounded so if a surge comes (lighting) and the device kicks in it will try to ground the surge before it reaches the device it is protecting.
June 9, 2009 4:51:09 PM

Sorry, I have no idea what are you talking about...

Here is one example of a surge protector: http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=PH6VT3%2DGR

What I want to know is do I benefit if I connect my new UPS to this kind of device.

And where comes the surge you asked, well from near by lighting or a little peak when power comes back on after a been away some time.

If you say these offer virtually no protection at all, why do they sell them?
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June 10, 2009 5:42:41 AM

Well I don't want to discuss about do these surge protections really work or not. What I wanted to know is is two better then one?

Here in EU most wall outlets have three connectors: two for 230v AC and the third one is ground. The surge protections puts the surge to the ground connector if one occures.

I personally do belive these surge protectors work. I just have red that some suggest not to connect UPS to another surge protection and some say that there is no problem doing it. I just want to know do I benefit doing so, thats all.

But if that it too hard question to answer, I guess I have to find it out myself.

I have these surge protections just in case. Usually durning lighting storm I do disconnect all electronics from wall outlets. But sometimes I may not be home. Thats the case I want these protectors.

Anyway, thanx for your answers.
June 10, 2009 5:46:05 PM

My house electricity system is grounded (three connectors on each wall outlet), does that count as earthed? It is professionally built wireing by a company that does these jobs.

Why I want to use surge protection in front of ups is because they say you should change surge protection after two or three years because its metal oxide varistors will get old over time and can not offer good supression anymore. So I do not have to change my whole UPS but just the cheaper surge protector. That was the idea.
August 22, 2009 2:54:55 AM

Hey Edmo,
Westom is right that a whole house surge protector is best but he is wrong that standard unites aren't good to have. The standard ones will help fight small surges.

The standard units help with small surges and their effect is cumulative - so the more you have in your house the better. Use them on everything you want protected and on things that will cause small surges like on your refrigerator or anything else with a motor the turns on and off all day.

The surge protector in the UPS is probably the same as what is in the standard -standalone units. Look at the rating in joules. The more joules the better. They use a component called a MOV that, during a surge, turns the surge into a little bit of heat.

You will still be susceptible to large surges but small surges are much more common and they can fry your electronics just as easily as large surges. Think of it was water dripping on a bar of soap. The drips slowly, over time, drill a hole through the bar of soap. That's what small surges slowly do to your electronics.

So use standard surge protectors and the ones in your UPS unit. When you get time and extra money it's good to buy a whole house protector. Home Depot has a nice one for like $80: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Prod...

And if you want perfect power for your electronics buy a power filter like this: http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=PL-8C
August 24, 2009 11:01:09 PM

Those crude rotary dimmer switches are completely different than sensitive computer or home theater equipment. Apples and oranges.

The highest failure cause for microwave ovens is the dips and surges caused by the refrigerators sitting next to them. Why? Small surges doing cumulative damage over time. Small surges (spikes) and dips are the leading cause or electronics failures - that and poor manufacturing/design.

Ever watch a light bulb dim and then become brighter during a storm - those are small dips and surges. They are very bad for electronics and those small surges are what MOVs protect against.

If you open up a $200,000.00 industrial control cabinet guess what you will see next to every relay - a MOV. Why - to protect against small surges. How do I know - because I design them. And you know what? They work great.

Large surges will fry everything in their path and can even fry a whole house protector. Lightning will melt and go right through whole house protectors.

The Furman filter is actually a 120v to 120v transformer. That's how it filters and that's why it doesn't have a the specifications that you are looking for. It doesn't have MOVs in it so you should like it.

Westom - You pass yourself off as an authority on electrical engineering but you don't seem to even have a grasp of the basics. What do you do for a living again?
August 25, 2009 6:23:46 PM

The actual motors are rarely affected. I am talking about electronic components in a computer or television - or the electronics inside of a microwave oven.

Dips in voltage are bad for electronics because they make components work harder and cause them to fail. All electrical components strain in an undervolt situation.

A refrigerator will cause a dip when the motor starts and then will cause a surge when the motor stops and the magnetic field collapses. That energy has to go somewhere and it goes back into the wiring. If the refrigerator has a MOV in it to absorb the surge then you are at least covered for the surge.

Again - you seem to be good at googling things but you still lack a basic understanding of electrical engineering. And the fact that you haven't said what your profession is leads me to believe that you aren't in the field - and aren't qualified.

I have a degree in this stuff and I do it for a living - what are your qualifications?
August 27, 2009 4:29:26 AM

I am speaking in broad terms because this message board isn't for engineers - it's meant for regular people. Engineers already know all of this. But it doesn't take an engineer to understand that a component designed to run on 5 volts will fail prematurely if forced to run at 3 or 7 volts. Read a real book instead of google results and maybe next time you'll know what you are talking about: http://www.amazon.com/Electrical-Engineering-Introducti...

Also, if you were in the field you would know what a joke "standards" are. UL listing means the manufacturer paid the fee.

But I concede to you westom. I will admit that it's all a conspiracy to sell MOVs. The only thing that will damage electrical components is lightning. The moon landings and 9/11 were also a hoax.
a b ) Power supply
August 27, 2009 12:26:58 PM

edmo said:
Hi!
Again i'm stuck with getting information out of the internet...

Recently I bought a UPS (PowerWare 5110) It has built in surge protection. I know separate surge protections sort of wear out over time. What about the built in protection? Is it built the same way as the stand alone ones? Do they wear out too?
And the second question is can I connect surge protected UPS to a stand alone surge protection?
Wall Outlet ---> stand alone surge protection ---> UPS with built in surge protection ---> PC

So I could could change the stand alone surge protection when needed and not the whole UPS?


Thanx



Didn't your UPS come with a protection guarantee?

Most really good units do?

From my experience stand alone surge protectors, the El-Cheapo so called reuseable ones are really crap and come with no protection guarantee, the really good ones usually burn out a fuse link to ground and are sacrificial devices to protect your equipment.

I've been running UPSs from APC on all my equipment for about 5yrs now, have 3 of them actually and it protected even this reply to you as our power went out while typing this response to you, so as far as surge protection before the UPS, I do not have any, the UPS handles all that, and conditions my input power, protects from surges, brown outs, power failures and is probably the best money I've spent on my computer setups.

I do have surge protectors after the UPS, but simply because I need more plug in capability, than the UPS provides for my needs.

I hope that answers your question, as I don't have the time to write a magazine article for you. :hello: 
!