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HELP! HELP!! HELP!!!

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  • Drivers
  • Graphics
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Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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April 7, 2009 9:31:47 AM

I bought an Inno3d 9800gtx+ Freezer DHT yesterday. I installed windows xp service pack 2. after that i installed my motherboard drivers and restarted the computer. Then i installed the graphics card divers from the CD(v182.1), restarted the computer.Now this time it freezes when it logs into windows. the drivers have slightly worked because the resolutions have increased but thats it. After 5 seconds of logging into windows it freezes. ive tried intalling the latest drivers from the nvidia website(v182.5) but it still has the same result.Ive also tried v178.24 with no luck. I had to use driver sweeper to remove the drivers so that i could use windows again and type this email.This is my first pc ever and im already experiencing these kind of set backs. i dont think its a power problem because people with 1000w psu are experiencig difficulties too.

PLEASE HELP ME. I JUST WANT TO GAME.

cpu: AMD 5600+
mb: Foxconn 590 sli
psu: 500W +v12 @ 17A
HDD: 500gb Western Digital
RAM: 2gb

More about : help

April 7, 2009 9:42:27 AM

Just check that nothing is stopping your CPU fan for starters although it's highly unlikely.

Then run msconfig in safe mode from Start->Run and disable everything in the Start Up tab. Then reboot and see if that helps. If it does, enable each one in turn rebooting each time.

Power issues will only become evident in 3d mode - so starting up in 2d mode should be okay.
April 7, 2009 9:56:53 AM

You do know that upon starting a computer up it will draw more current and then drop off as windows loads?
a b U Graphics card
April 7, 2009 10:22:31 AM

And you realize that once you load Windows you're no longer in 2D mode, but 3D mode, so we fall back to your first post and see that a PC will draw more power once Windows loads? Contradiction? Yeah...

Anyway...

17A max on a single 12V rail PSU just ain't gonna cut it... If it were 2 rails @ 17A each, sure. But if it's single rail, I'm afraid not.

Score one for ravenware.
April 7, 2009 10:27:19 AM

RazberyBandit said:
And you realize that once you load Windows you're no longer in 2D mode, but 3D mode, so we fall back to your first post and see that a PC will draw more power once Windows loads?

17A max on a single 12V rail PSU just ain't gonna cut it... If it were 2 rails @ 17A each, sure. But if it's single rail, I'm afraid not.

Score one for ravenware.


The only increase in amperage when loading windows post logon is disk drive activity at around 4W above the peak when booting. So if he could get to log on, then the extra 4W won't bomb the system. Also, when too much power is drawn from the PSU you will force a reset (over current draw).

Lastly, if you see Windows XP desktop as 3d mode then you are smoking some lethal stuff.

Let's see, 1,2,3. Yeah 3-0.
a b U Graphics card
April 7, 2009 10:57:51 AM

I don't consider XP's desktop 3D at all. But, that's not to say Windows doesn't... 3D effects on icons, smooth scrolling, window min/max animation, drag & drop, mouse trails... All those little things are actually a 3D effect, not 2D.

Windows in and of itself is a 3D environment, whether you realize or want to admit it or not. It's not an intensive 3D environment, but that doesn't mean that the effects it has built-in aren't being thrust upon the graphics card. Indeed sir, they are.

I watched my old 8800GT die a slow death, unable of doing anything in 3D. Despite it's ability to still display, things such as smooth scrolling, min/max window animation, browser tab opening/closing, icon spin upon opening, pop-up alerts, and several other "minor" effects were so drastically slowed by it's failure that it was like watching grass grow.

I dunno... he said he tried this with a 1000W PSU too, but who knows how many amps it's got on it's 12V rail? It could one of those old ones with tons of wattage on the 3.3V and 5V rails... Still, you must admit that on a modern system where 12V amperage is key, 17A maximum output is weak, especially when attempting to push a high-end, power hungry graphics card like a 9800GTX+.
April 7, 2009 10:59:02 AM

ravenware said:
psu: 500W +v12 @ 17A

This is not enough power for your card.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...



okay let explain better. it actually makes to the desktop screen(past the welcome part). then i get pop ups then it freezes. if im lucky enough i can acsess the Nvidia control panel although the demo is fuzzy and then it freezes. still think its a power problem? i think not

+12V1 @ 17A
+12V2 @16A
and the psu comes with its own 6pin connector

and is Inno3d a good brand???
April 7, 2009 11:03:22 AM

okay let explain better. it actually makes to the desktop screen(past the welcome part). then i get pop ups then it freezes. if im lucky enough i can acsess the Nvidia control panel although the demo is fuzzy and then it freezes. still think its a power problem? i think not

+12V1 @ 17A
+12V2 @16A
and the psu comes with its own 6pin connector

and is Inno3d a good brand???
April 7, 2009 11:05:35 AM

RazberyBandit said:
I don't consider XP's desktop 3D at all. But, that's not to say Windows doesn't... 3D effects on icons, smooth scrolling, window min/max animation, drag & drop, mouse trails... All those little things are actually a 3D effect, not 2D.

Windows in and of itself is a 3D environment, whether you realize or want to admit it or not. It's not an intensive 3D environment, but that doesn't mean that the effects it has built-in aren't being thrust upon the graphics card. Indeed sir, they are.

I watched my old 8800GT die a slow death, unable of doing anything in 3D. Despite it's ability to still display, things such as smooth scrolling, min/max window animation, browser tab opening/closing, icon spin upon opening, pop-up alerts, and several other "minor" effects were so drastically slowed by it's failure that it was like watching grass grow.

I dunno... he said he tried this with a 1000W PSU too, but who knows how many amps it's got on it's 12V rail? It could one of those old ones with tons of wattage on the 3.3V and 5V rails... Still, you must admit that on a modern system where 12V amperage is key, 17A maximum output is weak, especially when attempting to push a high-end, power hungry graphics card like a 9800GTX+.


i never said i tried it on a 1000w psu. i said people with a 1000w psu are experiencing the same problem.
okay let explain better. it actually makes to the desktop screen(past the welcome part). then i get pop ups then it freezes. if im lucky enough i can acsess the Nvidia control panel although the demo is fuzzy and then it freezes. still think its a power problem? i think not

+12V1 @ 17A
+12V2 @16A
and the psu comes with its own 6pin connector

and is Inno3d a good brand???


a b U Graphics card
April 7, 2009 11:19:57 AM

I don't consider Inno3d a top brand based on product comparisons to other brands, but I've never actually used anything of theirs, either.

Most people would probably recommend EVGA, XFX, BFG, and several others far ahead of Inno3d, though. It's not to say Inno3d is bad at all, but their products often seem "less than" compared to others, and they often market their products at lower price points than the bigger companies. The bigger companies also seem to have better quality control and very solid tech support.

Edit:

After double checking nVidia's site for the power requirement, a 9800GTX+ is rated at 141W max power and should have TWO 6-pin connectors on it. You mentioned having only one connector... Are you only connecting one 6-pin power connector?

Further checking on Inno3d's site shows this on the Specifications tab: Minimum 500W or greater system power supply (with 12V current rating of 30A). Considering that system has an absolute maximum of 33A on it's two 12V rails, I believe it is finally safe to say you're not getting enough power. That doesn't mean the card isn't faulty at all, but it really does need more power.
April 7, 2009 2:04:06 PM

RazberyBandit said:
I don't consider XP's desktop 3D at all. But, that's not to say Windows doesn't... 3D effects on icons, smooth scrolling, window min/max animation, drag & drop, mouse trails... All those little things are actually a 3D effect, not 2D.

Windows in and of itself is a 3D environment, whether you realize or want to admit it or not. It's not an intensive 3D environment, but that doesn't mean that the effects it has built-in aren't being thrust upon the graphics card. Indeed sir, they are.

I watched my old 8800GT die a slow death, unable of doing anything in 3D. Despite it's ability to still display, things such as smooth scrolling, min/max window animation, browser tab opening/closing, icon spin upon opening, pop-up alerts, and several other "minor" effects were so drastically slowed by it's failure that it was like watching grass grow.

I dunno... he said he tried this with a 1000W PSU too, but who knows how many amps it's got on it's 12V rail? It could one of those old ones with tons of wattage on the 3.3V and 5V rails... Still, you must admit that on a modern system where 12V amperage is key, 17A maximum output is weak, especially when attempting to push a high-end, power hungry graphics card like a 9800GTX+.


When talking graphics cards, 2d refers to the desktop. Sure, there's some effects added but you essentially still stay in 2d unless you are using Vista upwards. When we get to 3d, we are actually starting to use the design intent around a GPU and seeing that it's a modern card we bump up the frequencies. But the real issue occurs when we starts flooding intense data stream to the GPU and then power consumption goes up.

Seeing that Windows XP didn't look better with each gpu iteration and that the speed cap for visual performance has long been surpassed I can't see that if we get past the post and a few seconds into desktop the power draw will increase substantially.

What I see here is that once you hit the desktop after start up you start loading the start up section of windows and whatever is left of the drivers. It's during this phase that his computer freezes. This tells me whatever loads is causing havoc hence my reasoning in getting all start up programs disabled.
April 7, 2009 5:02:41 PM

RazberyBandit said:
I don't consider Inno3d a top brand based on product comparisons to other brands, but I've never actually used anything of theirs, either.

Most people would probably recommend EVGA, XFX, BFG, and several others far ahead of Inno3d, though. It's not to say Inno3d is bad at all, but their products often seem "less than" compared to others, and they often market their products at lower price points than the bigger companies. The bigger companies also seem to have better quality control and very solid tech support.

Edit:

After double checking nVidia's site for the power requirement, a 9800GTX+ is rated at 141W max power and should have TWO 6-pin connectors on it. You mentioned having only one connector... Are you only connecting one 6-pin power connector?

Further checking on Inno3d's site shows this on the Specifications tab: Minimum 500W or greater system power supply (with 12V current rating of 30A). Considering that system has an absolute maximum of 33A on it's two 12V rails, I believe it is finally safe to say you're not getting enough power. That doesn't mean the card isn't faulty at all, but it really does need more power.



so what you saying is that since my graphics card only has 1 pci-e 6pin connector it means its only getting +12v1 @ 17A. Correct me if im wrong because i dont understand what +12v1 and +12v2 mean. I need to understand whats happening here before i buy a new psu.

Oh and since my motherboard has no onboard graphics and im using my graphics card to view windows without the drivers because the vga cable is connected to the graphics card(mother board has no vga port). Am i taking a risk at damaging the graphics card by doing so.
April 7, 2009 5:07:44 PM

ravenware said:
psu: 500W +v12 @ 17A

This is not enough power for your card.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...



so what you saying is that since my graphics card only has 1 pci-e 6pin connector it means its only getting +12v1 @ 17A(the card power specs say +12v1 @ 30A).In other words am i only using 1 rail??? Correct me if im wrong because i dont understand what +12v1 and +12v2 mean. I need to understand whats happening here before i buy a new psu.

Oh and since my motherboard has no onboard graphics and im using my graphics card to view windows without the drivers because the vga cable is connected to the graphics card(mother board has no vga port). Am i taking a risk at damaging the graphics card by doing so.
April 7, 2009 5:09:16 PM

so what you saying is that since my graphics card only has 1 pci-e 6pin connector it means its only getting +12v1 @ 17A(the card power specs say +12v1 @ 30A).In other words am i only using 1 rail??? Correct me if im wrong because i dont understand what +12v1 and +12v2 mean. I need to understand whats happening here before i buy a new psu.

Oh and since my motherboard has no onboard graphics and im using my graphics card to view windows without the drivers because the vga cable is connected to the graphics card(mother board has no vga port). Am i taking a risk at damaging the graphics card by doing so.
April 7, 2009 5:34:02 PM

RazberyBandit said:
I don't consider Inno3d a top brand based on product comparisons to other brands, but I've never actually used anything of theirs, either.

Most people would probably recommend EVGA, XFX, BFG, and several others far ahead of Inno3d, though. It's not to say Inno3d is bad at all, but their products often seem "less than" compared to others, and they often market their products at lower price points than the bigger companies. The bigger companies also seem to have better quality control and very solid tech support.

Edit:

After double checking nVidia's site for the power requirement, a 9800GTX+ is rated at 141W max power and should have TWO 6-pin connectors on it. You mentioned having only one connector... Are you only connecting one 6-pin power connector?

Further checking on Inno3d's site shows this on the Specifications tab: Minimum 500W or greater system power supply (with 12V current rating of 30A). Considering that system has an absolute maximum of 33A on it's two 12V rails, I believe it is finally safe to say you're not getting enough power. That doesn't mean the card isn't faulty at all, but it really does need more power.


just to clear the air my graphics card only has 1 port/slot for my 6pin cable. Not 2 like most 9800gtx+'s. In other words my graphics card is not short of a 6pin connection.
a c 198 U Graphics card
April 7, 2009 6:47:53 PM

Just butting in...
I`ve looked at the Inno site and found other images of the card and they all show two 6-pin connectors side-by-side. Is it possible that yours has just not been made right? If so there will be a spare, unused place on the PCB where it should go.
Just an idea.
April 7, 2009 8:07:58 PM

SLI Zone
I'm sure it's you psu. Go to Nvidia SLI Zone and find a suitable psu.

These cards need lots of power, by the time you figure in what you need to boot the system (hdd, cpu, cdrom, ect_) you have no juice left for the good stuff. Or in your case none of it works.

More info

Hope this helps you, and good luck.
a b U Graphics card
April 8, 2009 6:36:04 AM

If I could suggest a PSU/Video card combo and you're certain what you want is a 9800GTX+, check out this one: Antec earthwatts 500W & EVGA 9800GTX+ @ Newegg
Not too bad a deal as a combo. The new GTS 250 is very similar to the 9800GTX+, so you could try looking for combos on them, also. Also, GTS 250's only require one 6-pin power connection and have amperage ratings around 25A, not 30A like the 9800GTX+. I suppose they're more like the 9800GTX than the GTX+. If you decide to buy a different brand, like the EVGA card I linked to, remember this fact about EVGA cards: Models that end in "-AR" are eligible for a lifetime warranty if registered within 30-days of purchase. Those that end in "-TR" only have a 1-year warranty.



As an aside to the little debate I was having with Vokofpolisiekar, I can't help but mention that it is the point at which the Windows Desktop loads that all the major components, as well as some secondary ones, are all in use at the same time, thus creating a major power draw. Mayor can't get beyond that point. I see where you believe this could be a driver issue, but you can't ignore the fact that video cards don't really behave like themselves during Windows installation. Instead, they act like an old Standard VGA device, which is what Windows is treating them as. Think of it as comparable to an old one or two-meg S3 Virge or Rage II chip. Video cards don't fully activate themselves and begin acting like themselves (and begin drawing serious power) until their drivers begin to load and they take on the task of displaying video. This is the same point where his system dies.

Lastly, let us also not forget that as PSU's age, their power output drops. Much like how the cylinder walls of a vehicle's engine wear and you start to lose compression and power, so too wear the capacitors and other parts within a PSU, thus resulting in lowered performance. (In this case, less electrical power.) With a maximum 12V output of 33A and a card that's rated to draw up to 30A, and a CPU, and HDD (maybe even more than 1), and case fans, and etc... all pulling at once, one could easily exceed the maximum 33A output (note, this is maximum, not continuous output rating) of that power supply. I seriously doubt the continuous 12V rating for that PSU is even 30A, which further points the blame towards the PSU.

Mayor, if the vendor from whom you purchased that card will allow you to exchange it and try another, go for it. However, I'm doubtful it will work, either. My suggestion is to try it with a more powerful PSU or in a friend's PC (or at the vendor) that has a more powerful PSU.
April 8, 2009 11:06:39 AM

When Windows loads all major components you are still not touching the peak current draw. Only when the gpu switches into the higher frequency band does it push current draw to the maximum.

Based on his statements, you look at 17Ax2 for total current draw (max - non continuous for a fraction of a second). ATX spec power supplies will go into reset if the current draw is exceeded protecting the user. As such, should he during the load phase of windows touch that ceiling you will most likely see the PC reboot, not freeze. Other faults (memory, software conflicts etc) normally result in windows locking up. Had this been over current draw, then based on what IEC says around electrical safety in household appliances this PSU would be creating a point of unsafe condition for the user, as it should in theory switch off/reset when it tries to consume too much power.

So, even though the possibility of the PSU being to blame there are still measures and reasoning that points to the contrary.

As an example of what I've read using a AC socket wattage meter; a 1.7Ghz PC (non optimized as opposed to what we have today) will consume up to 40W during boot and only increase to 44W during windows log on. The only difference between boot and windows load is that during windows load the GPU will be loaded with the optimized part of running itself and it starts with 2D mode which in absolute terms can be equal to the boot phase.

The only other thing that will consume more power is the CPU, but even then it's actually loaded with an optimized profile which will explain why the winbond sensors in BIOS reads higher (no optimization) as opposed to a lower reading in Windows (optimized). Yes, the readings are in a stable windows condition but the reference here would be that in BIOS the core(s) run at full frequency and high fan rpm and that will unlikely go higher during the load phase of windows - if anything it should drop.

Testing his card on someone elses' pc will only point to the card working or not.

Looking at some consumption specs where they use the 9800GTX+, Core 2 Extreme X6800, 150gig Raptor, 4 gig Corsair and Audigy the total consumption is equal to 204W in idle using VISTA.

Another example shows a 9800GTX+, QX9770, 4 gig Corsair, RaptorX SATA and 620W Corsair PSU and VISTA consuming 145W at idle and 234W at load.

Now tell me that he who is running less than that bar the GPU (and I can point to the extra cooling this card has which = less current draw to some extent) doesn't have enough?

Lastly - the 500W minimum at 30A is correct. If I remember correctly I ran a XTX ati card using a Core 2 Duo 6600 + 2gig ram and 300Gig SATA easily on a 430W Antec PSU (17Ax2). The 30A statement they make is where the PSU needs to supply that current in the worst case scenario for a fraction of a second without going into the unsafe zone. If they stated continuous current requirement, a lot of people could flame them when sub standard PSU's cripple when on that one occasion when the PSU went into the max zone (30A) and couldn't deliver. So they state the absolute maximum as their current requirement which is nowhere near the continuous draw.


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