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Lag free PC for MMORPG gaming: Will use SSD. Performance is important!

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March 16, 2009 5:59:19 PM

Hi.

I came to the best place to ask for some help with a new computer build.

This computer has to be performing the best it possibly can when it comes to memory and the harddrive. I am sick of HDD lag, rubberbanding, choppy FPS and slow loading times.

I've decided to buy the Intel X25-M SSD to run the XP 64 bit OS, my drivers and my mmorpg (Darkfall online).

Here is my current list. But, I am looking to possibly make some cuts and changes. So this is a preliminary list. The nunmbers in "(x)" is the price in DKK. I've underlined my areas of doubt.

Motherboard: GA EP45 DS3R (1)
CPU: Core 2 Duo E8500 (1.4)
GPU: Asus 295 GTX (3.8)
SSD: Intel X25-M (3) + NoName adapter (0.1)
HD: Seagate Barracuda. 7200.11. (1.5TB) (1) or Maxtor Diamondmax 22 (500 Gb) (0.4)
Case: Thermaltake Matrix VX (0.7)
RAM: 2x OCZ Platinum 2x2 Gb – PC-8500 (0.5+0.5)
CD/DVD RW: Samsung Writemaster SH-S223F (0.2)
Power adapter: Thermaltake ToughPower W0117 (1)
CPU Cooler: Thermaltake MaxOrb CL-P0369 (0.3)
Router: LevelOne NetCon WBR-3408 (0.2)
Netkort: Sandberg Wireless G54 PCI (0.2)

The goal of this computer is that it will provide me smart high end performance at a medium cost.


I want a perfect motherboard with a high performance. I don't know a lot about motherboards, but I guess theres some bandwith and bus speed to consider? Please help me by helping me select the best performing motherboard for my cause.
It is also important that the motherboard has a lot of USB plugs as I use that a lot. I chose the GA EP45 DS3R because it has 8 and because it has the TPM (security: trusted platform module). Is this motherboard a good choice? Or is it a poor choice? I do like the features, but I am not an expert and performance MUST come first. It scored 7 in a performance test and a 9 in features. So that raised an eyebrow. I dont want a 7 in performance. I want a 9. Of course I can't buy the most expensive motherboard, obviously. ..

CPU: I think the CPU I've chosen is great. I do not want I7. Mmorpgs do not utilize multiple cores. It is overall a waste of money to buy I7 or quad core. Having 2 great cores is awesome. Please comment on the CPU if you like. And do include if you think a CPU cooler is important to buy.

Graphics have to be up to par, but does not need to be top end. The 295 gtx is overkill. Am I rite? I will not run 2 cards. Not now, not in the future. It's not worth it.
I am running a 25.5" Asus VW266H monitor and I would very much like to run 1900x1200 in game as it is why I bought the monitor. Will a GTX 260 be sufficient or should I choose a gtx 285? Can I rule out the 9800gtx+?
- ATI is absolutely out of the question. I've been using ATI for a long time and I've always felt like a loser because their Antialiasing performance is terrible. Overall I've always had lag in games when using ATI cards. I've used the x800 and the x1950 (this one was good, but I got it a few years after it came out).
No. I want to use Nvidia. They are the best. I plan to crank up ALL gfx options in Darkfall Online with shadows and a high resolution.
I might run a second 22" monitor (asus vw222u) on the side which will run at 1400x900 or maybe 1600x1200. It's not out of the question.

RAM has to be DDR2 with perfect timings and latency. I can't stress the performance of these ram enough. I will be challenging the speed/responsiveness and size of my ram. I want to have 8gb of ram and I will be running both my game and various applications such as video editing and photo editing. I'm tired of getting the Insufficient memory when I work with a 200mb 8000x8000 image in Photoimpact. I don't want lag when I run FRAPS. DDR3 is out of the question as it is expensive and the performance only starts to jump ahead once you reach 1600mhz+, or so I read in a review from 2007.

I have decided on the Intel X-25 M (80gb) because I will be putting a sizeable mmorpg (15-20gb) on it, an OS, various applications and want to keep 10gb free space for a large pagefile and overall performance, I guess.
I can't justify the 160gb version as it is twice the cost and I don't need it.
Please keep the SSD in mind as the system is built around it. I crave high harddrive performance.
I don't know what to do about a second harddrive. I suppose I've chosen seagate or maxtor because of the 7200rpm, the large size and the very cheap price per megabyte. I will not run any raptors. They are a waste of money. I need space to store my ***, but the drive can't be slow either as I probably would have Star Wars Galaxies and Fallen Earth installed on it. They are both mmorpgs and will benefit greatly from a fast harddrive. So I'd appreciate advice on the 2nd hdd.

I am not sure if I really need the Thermaltake ToughPower W0117. But 750w seems neccesary somehow.


If you have any other comments or questions please ask and comment. I want to get this build straight.

I really want to play mmorpgs well for the next 5-7 years. Yes. I want the system to last that long as I can't afford another computer. So I might as well get it right. Obviously in 5-7 years it will run at a reduced performance, but if it is high end now it will run at low settings in everything. And I can't imagine Darkfall Online will have any major/critical graphical updates in that time that will make it hard for me to play it. .. besides.. I am now running at low settings in all games anyway because I want FPS and Gameplay over shadows, AA etc. .. But, with this new build at least I can play for some years with everything cranked up in my mmo!

So obviously.. The system does have to be stable. I do not want to overclock anything and I will clean it for dust once in a while.



ZtyX
March 16, 2009 6:05:42 PM

I want to mention that MMORPGS differ from other games because they use a lot of ram and are very demanding on the harddrive. Star Wars Galaxies was very notorious for its' lag in areas with a lot of objects.

These games have a lot of loading zones and you spend a lot of time travelling from place to place. So in the end you load a whole lot of data. The game I will play the most is Darkfall Online. It has a seamless world and the loading screens only appear when you enter the game or teleport.
On the other hand when you simply travel in the world you will never see a loading screen. Going from one area to another will give you a hiccup instead! This hiccup will present itself in the form of rubberbanding and you will be kicked back about 25m when riding a horse upon entering a new area. This will significantly screw me up when I am being chased as I will be rubberbanded right in the middle of those pursuing me. I do not want that. And I do not want lag when I enter new zones either.. So everything has to load up fast and start running smoothly immediately even when I travel fast from area to area or run around in places with a lot of players.

Darkfall Online is already optimized for performance and can handle most of it if my computer is up to it. That is why I want to explain you all where I am coming from. Maybe then I will be able to get some useful feedback on my build.
March 16, 2009 7:03:50 PM

Quote:
This computer has to be performing the best it possibly can when it comes to memory and the harddrive. I am sick of HDD lag, rubberbanding, choppy FPS and slow loading times.
A slow harddrive is really only going to responsible for slow loading times. Memory could affect the frame rate when you don't have enough and rubberbanding is strickly a internet issue, depending on the situation it could be your connection to the server or the server itself.

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I've decided to buy the Intel X25-M SSD to run the XP 64 bit OS, my drivers and my mmorpg (Darkfall online).
Other than loading windows fast it won't provide any real gaming benefit.

Quote:
Mmorpgs do not utilize multiple cores.
Yet or at least the ones you play now.
[qoute]It is overall a waste of money to buy I7 or quad core. Having 2 great cores is awesome.[/quote] You want this box to have a 5-7 year future?
Quote:
Please comment on the CPU if you like. And do include if you think a CPU cooler is important to buy.
IMO the Phenom II 940BE or the 720BE provide the best $$ value. A CPU cooler is very important given its cost.

Quote:
Graphics have to be up to par, but does not need to be top end. The 295 gtx is overkill. Am I rite? I will not run 2 cards. Not now, not in the future. It's not worth it.
I agree.
Quote:
I am running a 25.5" Asus VW266H monitor and I would very much like to run 1900x1200 in game as it is why I bought the monitor. Will a GTX 260 be sufficient or should I choose a gtx 285? Can I rule out the 9800gtx+?
I haven't seen any benchmarks for Darkfall, but the 260 will be probably be enough, the 285 is a lock.

Quote:
- ATI is absolutely out of the question. I've been using ATI for a long time and I've always felt like a loser because their Antialiasing performance is terrible. Overall I've always had lag in games when using ATI cards. I've used the x800 and the x1950 (this one was good, but I got it a few years after it came out).
No. I want to use Nvidia. They are the best. I plan to crank up ALL gfx options in Darkfall Online with shadows and a high resolution.
Your reasons for disregarding the ATI videocards aren't rational.

Quote:
I might run a second 22" monitor (asus vw222u) on the side which will run at 1400x900 or maybe 1600x1200. It's not out of the question.
Thats fine. Any GPU will support 2 montiors.

Quote:
RAM has to be DDR2 with perfect timings and latency. I can't stress the performance of these ram enough. I will be challenging the speed/responsiveness and size of my ram. I want to have 8gb of ram and I will be running both my game and various applications such as video editing and photo editing. I'm tired of getting the Insufficient memory when I work with a 200mb 8000x8000 image in Photoimpact. I don't want lag when I run FRAPS. DDR3 is out of the question as it is expensive and the performance only starts to jump ahead once you reach 1600mhz+, or so I read in a review from 2007.
Are MMO's that boring that you want to use video editing software and photo editing software while you play? Anyways, I agree DDR3 isn't the way to go right now. Get 8GB of RAM is fine, getting super lower timing will cost you alot of moeny and provide litte return.

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Please keep the SSD in mind as the system is built around it. I crave high harddrive performance.
You should really think twice about this. Again, no in game performance advantge to a decent 7200RPM drive.

Quote:
I am not sure if I really need the Thermaltake ToughPower W0117. But 750w seems neccesary somehow.
Your instincts have failed you again. While not being the best 750W from the get go, since you have no intention of running SLI or Crossfire then you will not need 750W. You'll do find with 650W or less.

Quote:
I really want to play mmorpgs well for the next 5-7 years. Yes. I want the system to last that long as I can't afford another computer.
5-7 years is a long time. As long as you stick with the same MMO it should be fine, moving from MMO to MMO over the next 7 years will quickly show the age of your system.

Again the most important thing to take away from this is that an SSD will provide little benefit even in games that have no loading screens and stream the world in. Lots of RAM though will help that and it doesn't need to be low timing stuff.
Related resources
March 16, 2009 7:19:36 PM

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... LG DVD Drive $22
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... WD 640GD HD $75
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... CM 690 $80
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... PC Power and Cooling PSU 750W $125 - $25
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... Xigma CPU Cooler $36 - $10MIR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... Mushkin DDR2 800 5-4-4-12 2x2x2GB $100 - $10 MIR

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite... Phenom II 720BE and Biostar 790GX $212
or
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite... or Phenom II 940BE and Biostar 790GX + $48

These processors will give better value than an E8500 based system over the next 7 years.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... 2GB 4850x2 $290
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... 1GB GTX 285 $340 - $30 MIR

Between the two the 4850x2 will give you better performance and better AA/AF performance at the resolutions you intended to play at.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/phenom-overclock-at... OC'ing guide
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-radeon,... Graphics Card Guide
March 16, 2009 7:26:42 PM

i agree, the SSD will not offer any gaming performance, go with the WD Caviar Black Edition, 640 GB model, (the one with the model number ending in AALS as opposed to the one ending in AAKS) (sorry MykC, i had the AAKS version you posted above my post, but the AALS version is MUCH better with the 32MB cache)
March 16, 2009 7:52:55 PM

Quote:
A slow harddrive is really only going to responsible for slow loading times. Memory could affect the frame rate when you don't have enough and rubberbanding is strickly a internet issue, depending on the situation it could be your connection to the server or the server itself.


Quote:
Other than loading windows fast it won't provide any real gaming benefit.


I keep reading this from various people, yet I guess I am reluctant to believe it. Is there really nothing I can personally do to eliminate the rubberbanding?
Is it in fact network lag? It's hard to believe because I always play with 15-41 ping.

Buying the SSD does equal the cost of about 10 normal harddrives or 5 good ones. But, still.. Very few people have one and I don't think they have been tested extensively on mmorpgs. Many, like you, say they have no influence on gaming except for loading the game. But, can it really be true? And after all, Mmorpgs are designed differently than single player games.

Still... If it is true, loading quickly is still a big advantage in games like Battlefield 2 during map changes. Hm.. I am quite torn on this issue. But my instincts were wrong with other things. I might have to listen to you guys. I would save a lot of money..

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Yet or at least the ones you play now.
[qoute]It is overall a waste of money to buy I7 or quad core. Having 2 great cores is awesome.
You want this box to have a 5-7 year future? [/quote]

Yes, that is the goal. You don't think it is possible with a core 2 duo?
.. Quad cores have been out for a while and yet very few games utilize them. MMORPGs are always one step behind in using the newest techonology because they take many years to make. Darkfall Online was in development since early 2003. I don't think it is a good idea to buy 4 core CPUs if they only use 1 core for the game anyway. That single core will be sufficient if it runs at 3.4 ghz like the E8500 (if I remember right~3.4ghz).

I think core 2 duo E8500 is future proof when it comes to MMORPGs. But maybe not if I want to play the newst RTS, FPS or RPG games in 2014.

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IMO the Phenom II 940BE or the 720BE provide the best $$ value. A CPU cooler is very important given its cost.


But that is AMD. I can't use AMD.. I'd have to get a whole different motherboard too. Are motherboards even good if they use AMD processors? .. Are you sure the E8500 isn't better? What is the price difference and do you have any benchmarks? .. What speed does it run at compared to the 3.4ghz on the E8500?

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I haven't seen any benchmarks for Darkfall, but the 260 will be probably be enough, the 285 is a lock.


Kool. I figured it would be. Hmm, but what do you mean by lock?
Quote:

Your reasons for disregarding the ATI videocards aren't rational.

I think you are right about that. .. They aren't. But, I do know for sure that the Nvidia drivers are much better. I would feel better choosing Nvidia.

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Thats fine. Any GPU will support 2 montiors.

Well, obviously 2 monitors will make the computer run slower if I choose a weaker video card. In which case, will the 260 suffice?

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Are MMO's that boring that you want to use video editing software and photo editing software while you play? Anyways, I agree DDR3 isn't the way to go right now. Get 8GB of RAM is fine, getting super lower timing will cost you alot of moeny and provide litte return.


No. They are not boring. Quite the contrary. I want to be producing some content while I play them. Be it making a video or mapping down points of interest. That can take up alot of resources. Meanwhile, I could be streaming video and using voice communication. .. All at the same time.
Quote:

Your instincts have failed you again. While not being the best 750W from the get go, since you have no intention of running SLI or Crossfire then you will not need 750W. You'll do find with 650W or less.


So I will choose a 650W psu.
Quote:

5-7 years is a long time. As long as you stick with the same MMO it should be fine, moving from MMO to MMO over the next 7 years will quickly show the age of your system.


Yes, I do understand I will have to play at minimum settings eventually. I am just hoping that I can ride a high quality wave for as long time as possible and eventually change the graphics card to prolong the lifetime of the computer for another 2 years.

Also, I do plan to stay with Darkfall for a long time. Theres really nothing else on the mmo scene. Of course it might change.. But by then I would still be able to play on lower settings if I buy a good machine now! Dont you agree?

Quote:

Again the most important thing to take away from this is that an SSD will provide little benefit even in games that have no loading screens and stream the world in. Lots of RAM though will help that and it doesn't need to be low timing stuff.


Okay. I will think about the SSD very carefully. .. What do you think about the ram I chose already?

... Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate your feedback. Ill go over your list of suggestions on newegg once I finished playing Darkfall. Haha. I was waiting in the queue to login for over 3 hours. .. Mmo launches.. love em and hate em. ^^
March 16, 2009 7:54:48 PM

Oh.. I just quickly noticed the ddr2 800 mhz ram. .. Gosh.. How can you recommend me that? That is not high end at all. :/ 

Im curious as to why you would recommend me the 800mhz ram?
The 2x OCZ Platinum 2x2 Gb – PC-8500 seems to be a much better choice. No?
March 16, 2009 8:24:36 PM

Quote:
I keep reading this from various people, yet I guess I am reluctant to believe it. Is there really nothing I can personally do to eliminate the rubberbanding?
Is it in fact network lag? It's hard to believe because I always play with 15-41 ping.
If your ping is low its because the server can't keep up. I used to play on over populated WoW server and this would always happen durning peak hours.

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Kool. I figured it would be. Hmm, but what do you mean by lock?
A lock meaning for sure. With either cards you get what you pay for really.

Quote:
Oh.. I just quickly noticed the ddr2 800 mhz ram. .. Gosh.. How can you recommend me that? That is not high end at all.

Im curious as to why you would recommend me the 800mhz ram?
The 2x OCZ Platinum 2x2 Gb – PC-8500 seems to be a much better choice. No?
Comparing the cost to move to higher frequency ram and the cost of the system, at this time I don't feel it provides as much value as the DDR2 800.

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I think you are right about that. .. They aren't. But, I do know for sure that the Nvidia drivers are much better. I would feel better choosing Nvidia.
There is no difference is drivers, at least not now. Regardless, given your preferences and its performance I think you should run with the GTX 285.

You mentioned having to change the motherboard. Have you bought the motherboard for the E8500 already?

The last thing, I still think you should strongly consider the Phenom II 940BE (taking the motherboard into account its probably cheaper) more than the E8500 and you can overclock it further considering you'll have 8GB of RAM in the board.

March 16, 2009 8:48:24 PM

ZtyX said:
...Is it in fact network lag? It's hard to believe because I always play with 15-41 ping....


Number one rule in PC gaming:
Ping =! lag
March 16, 2009 10:36:18 PM

Quote:
If your ping is low its because the server can't keep up. I used to play on over populated WoW server and this would always happen durning peak hours.


Now, don't be silly. A low ping is a very, very good thing. It means you are close to the server. Everybody knows that. You must have made a typo.

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A lock meaning for sure. With either cards you get what you pay for really.


Aah.. hmm. So you think the gtx 285 is a really good choice, and worth the extra money? However, the gtx 295 doesn't give any real extra power?

Hmm.. There's something else I've been wondering. Is there any difference in how the graphics, lighting etc looks if you have a better gpu? I remember that at each tier of new Nvidia cards they would advertise on their site about how graphics would now live up even more. .. Im wondering if there is any difference in visual quality between a gtx 260, 285 and a gtx 295. ... And basically. What is REALLY the difference between a 295 and the others? .. Is it like the benchmarks say? A couple of FPS here and there?

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Comparing the cost to move to higher frequency ram and the cost of the system, at this time I don't feel it provides as much value as the DDR2 800.


Okay. But, RAM is a very important ingredient in a fast machine. I will be alt tabbing between demanding applications and the game and I will be playing a rather demanding game too. Furthermore, I might not shutdown the computer for prolonged periods of time! .. Surely, I would need the better ram. And they are not that much more expensive. .. Hm, but what exactly does the higher frequency ram do? .. It seems like a rather big jump down to 800 mhz. Im sure I will be giving up a lot .. and especially if the system is going to last for 5-7 years. I can't buy outdated ram from 2004. 800mhz is way old now..

There is no difference is drivers, at least not now. Regardless, given your preferences and its performance I think you should run with the GTX 285.

You mentioned having to change the motherboard. Have you bought the motherboard for the E8500 already?


Alright. I think I will go for the 285. It seems like the best and most balanced choice. ..
No, I haven't bought anything yet. .. I want to get the plan straight first. There has to be no doubt in my mind I am buying a powerfully performing system. .. Memory, data transfer and processing has to do well. .. And, Windows Xp 64 bit is the best choice, right? .. Or what should I go with?

USually there are much fewer issues with applications when using XP.

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The last thing, I still think you should strongly consider the Phenom II 940BE (taking the motherboard into account its probably cheaper) more than the E8500 and you can overclock it further considering you'll have 8GB of RAM in the board.


Aha.. So you mean the "Phenom II X4 940 6 MB" ? That is a 3 ghz quad core. hmm.. Well. it isn't far from the E8500 and it has 2 more cores at nearly the same price. You could clock the cores to 3.4ghz. .. Maybe that is a better choice. .. but what motherboard would I then have to purchase? And why would it be better for me to buy this phenom when I plan to get 8gb? .. You seem to hint that a lot of ram somehow makes the purchase of the PHenom better.
March 16, 2009 10:49:30 PM

Quote:
If your ping is low its because the server can't keep up. I used to play on over populated WoW server and this would always happen durning peak hours.
Should of read... If your ping is low and your rubber banding/lagging its because the server can't keep up...

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Okay. But, RAM is a very important ingredient in a fast machine. I will be alt tabbing between demanding applications and the game and I will be playing a rather demanding game too. Furthermore, I might not shutdown the computer for prolonged periods of time! .. Surely, I would need the better ram. And they are not that much more expensive. .. Hm, but what exactly does the higher frequency ram do? .. It seems like a rather big jump down to 800 mhz. Im sure I will be giving up a lot .. and especially if the system is going to last for 5-7 years. I can't buy outdated ram from 2004. 800mhz is way old now..
If you want DDR2 1066 it will give you benefit.

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Aha.. So you mean the "Phenom II X4 940 6 MB" ? That is a 3 ghz quad core. hmm.. Well. it isn't far from the E8500 and it has 2 more cores at nearly the same price. You could clock the cores to 3.4ghz. .. Maybe that is a better choice. .. but what motherboard would I then have to purchase? And why would it be better for me to buy this phenom when I plan to get 8gb? .. You seem to hint that a lot of ram somehow makes the purchase of the PHenom better.
Generally the more RAM DIMM slots filled in your motherboard the more restricted you overclocking is going to be on CPU with locked multipliers (e8500). With unlocked CPUs (940BE) the memory and FSB doesn't need to be touched so memory stability when overclocking is removed from the overclocking equation. In additon, if your going to be alt-tabbing between various program, running fraps, ventrilo/teamspeak in the background while you play your MMOs the Phenom II multicore CPU will show its strength. Benchmarks are run with the "idleprocesses" command which essential stops any background process from running while their benchmarks run. It distorts your average users multitasking realword scenarios.

Phenom II 940BE with motherboard combo $260.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...
March 17, 2009 4:34:46 AM

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If you want DDR2 1066 it will give you benefit.

You will not see any difference between the two different RAM frequencies (about 1%). DDR2 1066 is pretty much DDR2 800 overclocked with a warranty.

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Alright. I think I will go for the 285. It seems like the best and most balanced choice

Why not get the Gigabyte ep45-ud3r and toss in an ATI 4870? The 4870 blows the GTX 285 out of the water in the price/performance ratio plus you can throw in another card in a Crossfire configuration when you feel like it.
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Buying the SSD does equal the cost of about 10 normal harddrives or 5 good ones. But, still.. Very few people have one and I don't think they have been tested extensively on mmorpgs. Many, like you, say they have no influence on gaming except for loading the game. But, can it really be true? And after all, Mmorpgs are designed differently than single player games.

You won't see any noticeable differences between an SSD and a good 7200 RPM drive. To make it blunt, it isn't worth your money.
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I really want to play mmorpgs well for the next 5-7 years. Yes. I want the system to last that long as I can't afford another computer.

I highly doubt your PC will be able to run any MMORPG 5-7 years in the future without serious framerate issues.
If you split your budget in two (assuming your budget is around $1,300) you could build two mid range PC's, one now, and one 3 years in the future. This way you would always be able to run any game thrown at it with all the eye-candy cranked up.
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I will not run 2 cards. Not now, not in the future. It's not worth it.

A GTX 295 is two nerfed GTX 280s on a single PCB.
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I want to mention that MMORPGS differ from other games because they use a lot of ram and are very demanding on the harddrive.

A fast SATA HDD will handle it just fine.
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This hiccup will present itself in the form of rubberbanding and you will be kicked back about 25m when riding a horse upon entering a new area. This will significantly screw me up when I am being chased as I will be rubberbanded right in the middle of those pursuing me.

The rubberbanding is due to a slow or clogged network connection, not because of a slow HDD. If you that badly want a good connection, buy a T1 line.
March 17, 2009 6:22:35 AM

To be honest, I think you are extremely overshooting what you actually need. It would be nice to know what your current computer situation is, so that the others could diagnose if there is a single component that needs to be replaced, instead of throwing out a ridiculous amount of money on components that you could wait until later to buy for a much lower price. I'm confused about why you are asking for help when you seem to be very close-minded in the first place. The suggestion of the DDR2 800 MHz was completely logical, cost-efficient, and a good choice. If you want to make a high-end computer without worrying about a budget, go right ahead, but from the little I have read it seems like you will have a computer build that will run any MMORPG quite well, at least for the next couple years. Even cutting your budget by $400-500, you'd still have a computer that would run any MMORPG quite well and save a lot of money.

More than likely this problem is a connection problem.

More than likely your MMORPG can't run any better from a $800 build to a $1300 build.

But it's your money... I just think you're overshooting this.

-Riley
March 17, 2009 6:22:46 AM

g3force said:

A GTX 295 is two nerfed GTX 280s on a single PCB.


Actually no... a 4870x2 is on a single PCB, yes, but the GTX295 is still two physical cards sandwiched into a single housing.
March 17, 2009 8:46:55 AM

My take is TS is swatting a fly using a SCUD missile LOL
March 17, 2009 2:11:31 PM

Windows XP 64 bit is built over the Windows server 2003 64 bits Kernel ans there's some limitations with OpenGL and other libraries and support by third partys is somewhat troublesome

If you truly what a 64bit OS go with Vista x64
March 17, 2009 2:18:59 PM

EQPlayer said:
Actually no... a 4870x2 is on a single PCB, yes, but the GTX295 is still two physical cards sandwiched into a single housing.

Thanks for clarifying, I wasn't thinking straight at 1:00AM ;) 

Quote:
More than likely your MMORPG can't run any better from a $800 build to a $1300 build.

But it's your money... I just think you're overshooting this.

As raw processing power isn't what the OP's looking for, something similar to the February SBM budget build would suffice for his needs.
March 17, 2009 4:20:53 PM

g3force said:
I highly doubt your PC will be able to run any MMORPG 5-7 years in the future without serious framerate issues.
If you split your budget in two (assuming your budget is around $1,300) you could build two mid range PC's, one now, and one 3 years in the future. This way you would always be able to run any game thrown at it with all the eye-candy cranked up.



+1

FWIW, I just built two very low budget systems for WoW. With shipping and tax, the towers cost just under $600 each. Being my first build, I wanted to see how much bang for my buck I could get and not feel bad if I fried it. :D 

I had an OS mix up, so right now, I'm running Vista home premium x86, Intel E5200 stock (no OC yet), 2Gig of DDR2 800 (going to install the second 2g chip after I install x64 vista), WD 7200 rpm HD, ATI 3870 (no comments about the 4830 plz...it's purchased and done), etc and I'm running WoW on a 22" monitor at 1440x900 on the highest settings. Even in large raids, I'm still staying above 30fps.

Point being that you can build a machine now that will last for couple years with only minor upgrades to keep up while saving a whole lot of money. Put that extra money away and when that machine doesn't work, build another 'budget' model that will smoke the 'future proof' machine you want to build today.

My .02. Good luck.
March 17, 2009 4:25:21 PM

Here is what I think you're overshooting on:

Graphics card: The 280/295 GT cards will definately get the job done for any MMORPG. However, I wouldn't rule out a cheaper card such as the 9800GTX+ or even the 9800 GT. I purchased a 9800GTX+ for the computer I just bought, but only because I got a great deal on it. If I didn't get this deal, I would have went with a 4850 ATI card, which is MUCH better for the money. But if you really think the 280/295 Nvidia cards will make a difference, do whatever pleasures you, but you came here for advice, not to tell us what you think you should get.

Hard Drive: Having a solid state disk is not going to make any noticeable difference. As the others have suggested, I would just get a 7200 RPM drive, which would save you money, and prevent you from having to buy a second hard drive.

Power Supply: You'll be surprised what a good lower-end watt power supply will do. I think 750 Watts is overkill, but extra power isn't always a bad thing.

RAM: I'd get a DDR2 800 with good timings. You mentioned buying 8 gigabytes of ram. I would initially only buy 4 gigabytes and see how your game runs. I currently have 8 gigabytes in my system, but I'm almost 100% sure that if I was to remove 4 of it, that the memory would still be able to tackle everything. Unless you are going to be video editting, photo editting, and playing an mmorpg all at the SAME time, I highly doubt you'll ever hit the 8 gigabytes usage. However, RAM is so amazingly cheap that upgrading to 8Gb is not that much cost.

-Riley
March 17, 2009 5:34:09 PM

Quote:
The 280/295 GT cards will definately get the job done for any MMORPG. However, I wouldn't rule out a cheaper card such as the 9800GTX+ or even the 9800 GT. I purchased a 9800GTX+ for the computer I just bought, but only because I got a great deal on it. If I didn't get this deal, I would have went with a 4850 ATI card, which is MUCH better for the money. But if you really think the 280/295 Nvidia cards will make a difference, do whatever pleasures you, but you came here for advice, not to tell us what you think you should get.
I agree in managing your GPU budget over time, like ~150 now and a ~150 down the road, but the OP does want to run 1920x1200 with AA and AF max settings in the new MMO he is playing. Seeing how in my experience the endgame MMO stuff always seems to be super demand and you can't have any technical limitation affecting how you perform in an end game content that the lower stuff won't cut for them unless they are will to reduce the quality of the graphics.
March 17, 2009 6:01:21 PM

To the OP:

Phenom II X3 720BE + this Gigabyte board http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

It will let you upgrade to an AM3 cpu in the future. For the time being, the X3 will chew up any MMORPG you throw at it.

8GB DDR2

Get an ATI HD 4870 1gb now, and buy a new card, if needed, 2 years from now. 99% of the time it's better to buy a new card when you need it, not just because you have a feeling you might need it a year from now. Wait until you need a new card, then upgrade. It's so much easier to pick out a card for a game that already exists than it is to "future proof" your system. You will not gain anything from this, you will only waste money, I assure you. Edit: This is of course with the assumption that you're perfectly comfortable doing upgrades, and that you won't be giving this computer to your little brother who will need it for 4+ years.

2 x 640GB WD Caviar Black drives in Raid 0

That's about $680 total before tax/shipping.

You could get a T1 connection if you still feel your internet is too slow, but from what I've seen it's about $300 a month.

Play Darkfall online to your heart's content.
March 17, 2009 7:57:35 PM

ZtyX, do you happen to have Verizon FIOS internet available in your area that you live in? On that note, what kind of internet connection do you have right now, please be specific with speeds if you can.

As for Hardware, the Following would be a GREAT setup for your needs, it'll allow for Upgrade Options in the future. (from Core 2 Duo to Quad and Crossfire) If you already have any of the following, just ignore and move to the next item...


Operating System: Win XP Pro 64-bit
(this one i like as it is the most stable 64-bit OS out there and it's been great for me, if you already have Vista 64, then disregard)

Monitor: whatever you like...
(preference is yours here)

Motherboard: ASUS PQ5 PRO or Gigabyte ep45-ud3r
(BOTH are nice and offer support to upgrade to a Quad AND Crossfire)

CPU: Intel E8500
(i like your original choice here, if you decide to OC, use the E8400)

Cooling: AC Freezer Pro 7
(it's a great little cooler for a cheap price)

Video Card: Sapphire 4870 1GB
(I stress the 1GB as it will help greatly in higher resolutions)

RAM: G-SKILL DDR2-800 PC-6400 RAM, it's perfect for the E8400/E8500
(anything higher is just OC'd RAM )

Power Supply: ANYTHING CORSAIR OR PC POWER & COOLING
(do not get anything below 600 watts if you plan to Crossfire

Media Drvie: anything that burns DVD's and is SATA
(no brainer)

Hard Drive: 2 X WD Caviar BLACK 640 GB
(RAID these puppies up and watch them FLY!!!)

Case: whatever you want
(bleh)

March 18, 2009 6:59:37 PM

First, thanks for all the feedback you've given me. I am definitely trying to take advice rather than just to be stubborn about it.

Quote:
ZtyX, do you happen to have Verizon FIOS internet available in your area that you live in? On that note, what kind of internet connection do you have right now, please be specific with speeds if you can.


No. . I live in an appartment complex where you get free internet. It's not very reliable and does at times suddenly disappear. Im very unhappy about that, but it doesn't happen that often. .. It's 8mbit and I think it gives me a good ping. Also my ping doesn't suffer when I download which is very nice.

Quote:

Operating System: Win XP Pro 64-bit
(this one i like as it is the most stable 64-bit OS out there and it's been great for me, if you already have Vista 64, then disregard)


Quote:
Windows XP 64 bit is built over the Windows server 2003 64 bits Kernel ans there's some limitations with OpenGL and other libraries and support by third partys is somewhat troublesome

If you truly what a 64bit OS go with Vista x64


I don't know which advice I should choose. .. What limitations does he mean? OpenGl is very important as it is graphics! lol. And that means a lot to me.
Quote:

The suggestion of the DDR2 800 MHz was completely logical, cost-efficient, and a good choice. If you want to make a high-end computer without worrying about a budget, go right ahead, but from the little I have read it seems like you will have a computer build that will run any MMORPG quite well, at least for the next couple years. Even cutting your budget by $400-500, you'd still have a computer that would run any MMORPG quite well and save a lot of money.

More than likely this problem is a connection problem.

More than likely your MMORPG can't run any better from a $800 build to a $1300 build.

But it's your money... I just think you're overshooting this.


Okay, but RAM does mean a lot. I'm not looking to be cost efficient. I want to pay a medium price for a great computer. So I dont want to buy some bad ddr 800 mhz ram if my other components are above average. .. You dont know much about MMORPGs then. WoW is very efficient and plays easily on shitty computers, but most other mmos are very very demanding when it comes to graphics, ram and cpu power. Most mmos have always been lagging for me and I have just about had it with lag. I want no more lag whatsoever .. It is very frustrating to have to turn down settings in order to get a smooth experience. I want to fly.

30 fps is not enough for me. I want to have 50 fps and in Darkfall maybe 100 fps. .. Also, I do want to finally be able to play with Anti aliasing on the max and with shadows. So I do think I would need a gtx 285 and can't buy a Radeon 4850 or another budget card to save me money. .. The thing is, I can save money but I just dont want to buy a computer that cant give me a pleasant graphical experience. .. I know these cards too well. They claim to be bang for the buck and high quality. But in reality they all give lag in intensive game areas and I hate that.. I dont want to lag in cities or during mass combat.

I think that answers pretty much everyone who suggested I was overshooting the gpu. I dont think I am. The GPU is very important and I suppose if I buy an expensive 285 now I will be happy with it for quite a few years and eventually have to drop settings to medium or low. Or buy another expensive card. ..

As for the rest of the build. I guess I want to make sure that the computer itself can be upgraded with a newer GPU and still run fine for another year or two. So I do want an above average price/performance build. ... And also. It sucks to have mediocre computers standing around that no one will use.

Quote:
I agree in managing your GPU budget over time, like ~150 now and a ~150 down the road, but the OP does want to run 1920x1200 with AA and AF max settings in the new MMO he is playing. Seeing how in my experience the endgame MMO stuff always seems to be super demand and you can't have any technical limitation affecting how you perform in an end game content that the lower stuff won't cut for them unless they are will to reduce the quality of the graphics.


Exactly. I do need the power.


Also. Someone asked me what computer I have now.. I used to have p4 3.4ghz, 2.5gb ram, ATI 1950x. It was decent, but I had to run low settings. .. That machine, unfortunately, doesn't work for some reason.. and it's rather heavy. I'd like to buy a light computer next time. .. So now I am using a C2D 1.8ghz laptop with 8600m GT and 2gb ram on windows xp. .. It's fairly good and I will use it for my alternative character in game. I do need a main PC beast. That's why I am determined to build a quality computer now. ..

Quote:
Phenom II X3 720BE + this Gigabyte board http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6813128387


So now the question is whether I do that or this:
Quote:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Comb [...] mbo.165025 Phenom II 720BE and Biostar 790GX $212


Or even this:

Quote:
ASUS PQ5 PRO or Gigabyte ep45-ud3r



Quote:
Hard Drive: 2 X WD Caviar BLACK 640 GB
(RAID these puppies up and watch them FLY!!!)


You are all suggesting the WD caviar black.. So I will listen to you and drop the SSD. Perhaps you are right. .. I should try with these guys in RAID 0. Even though I have never tried raid 0 before. Im sure I could make it work. Someone said it was very easy. Just a bios setting..
March 18, 2009 8:05:57 PM

Motherboard: MSI 790GX-G65
CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 940 3.0GHZ
GPU: Nvidia Geforce 285 GTX (2.7) or 295 GTX (3.6)
HD: 2x Raid 0: WD Caviar Black (WD6401AALS) ~ 640 GB (1.15)
Case: Thermaltake Matrix VX (0.7)
RAM: 2x OCZ Platinum 2x2 Gb – PC-8500 (0.5+0.5)
CD/DVD RW: Samsung Writemaster SH-S223F (0.2)
Power adapter: Thermaltake ToughPower W0117 (1)
CPU Cooler: Thermaltake MaxOrb CL-P0369 (0.3)
Router: LevelOne NetCon WBR-3408 (0.2)
Netcard: Sandberg Wireless G54 PCI (0.2)

Note:

***... The GTX 295 is only 900.- more expensive than the 285! .. Maybe I should just buy the 295?. .. Damn: I gotta look at some benchmarks and comparisons. I need to know if it's worth it.

And my question is.. Now that I've chosen the AMD processor and this AM2+ motherboard. Would an NVIDIA card run worse on this motherboard? I do like Nvidia cards more than ATI. How does my CPU and motherboard choice affect, if at all, my GPU performance? And what about the integrated radeon 3300 in that motherboard?
March 18, 2009 8:20:46 PM

I'll recommend this motherboard over the one you picked out. Its the same thing except its newer BIOS, no onboard video and from gigabyte.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... Giga 790X $110
Nvidia will not run worse on an AMD mother. It will perform the same. The only time your choice of CPU will affect your GPU is if you choose something horrible under powered and it ends up bottlenecking your GPU. This is not the case for you.

The GTX 295 will not provide any real value for you. Unless you want bragging rights.
March 18, 2009 8:38:41 PM

Hey, thanks MykC. I must have missed that motherboard. I can buy that one too. It is much better and it has 2 more USB ports (total 8). Very nice. .. it's also 4 months newer than the MSI board.

The Gigabyte GA-MA790XT-UD4P is much better.

About the gtx 295. Are you sure about that? I will after all be using 1900x 1200 resolution with AA and AF maxed + shadows.

The GTX 295 has 56 ROPS as opposed to the 32 the GTX 285 has.
I should think the amount of ROPS is very important for the processing power and Nvidia has been stuck at 32 ROPS for a long time, so it's quite amazing to get the 295 with such a big increase.

Also. The benchmark here: http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/geforce-gtx-295,review-31... : shows that to play Crysis with full settings and AA + AF is impossible on a 285/280, but can be done relatively fluently on the 295. It is a whole 11 fps better (18->29).

Not that I actually will ever play Crysis, but it does mean that a heavy GPU load will benefit from using 295. It is a make or break situation here. .. The 285 is only about 33% cheaper. I could justify buying it if I don't change my GPU for 3 years. Even then, the 295 would still be powerful. If you look at the 8800 gtx, that is exactly the case. They are still working well.

It really boils down to whether I am going to buy a new graphics card in 1-2 years or if I can wait 3 years.

No matter what though, I have to wait 1-2 years. So, is that one extra year up to 3 years worth waiting if I can get the best GPU available now and play top level graphics for 1-2years?

... Its a different way of asking the question?.. Hmmm..
Or is it better for me to buy something newer by then? .. Then what would happen with the 295 GTX card?
What would happen with the 285gtx if I bought it and then dumped it in 2 years?..

The more I think about it the more I realize that the 295 is not a bad purchase. .. Also, it does have some kind of value as opposed to the 285 because it is an ultra model. .. Hmm.. Ill take the 295.



March 18, 2009 8:45:25 PM

So now it looks like this:

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-MA790XT-UD4P (1.05)
CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 940 3.0GHZ (1.7)
GPU: Nvidia Geforce 295 GTX (3.6)
HD: 2x Raid 0: WD Caviar Black (WD6401AALS) ~ 640 GB (1.15)
Case: Thermaltake Matrix VX (0.7)
RAM: 2x OCZ Platinum 2x2 Gb – PC-8500 (0.5+0.5)
CD/DVD RW: Samsung Writemaster SH-S223F (0.2)
Power adapter: Thermaltake ToughPower W0117 (1)
CPU Cooler: Thermaltake MaxOrb CL-P0369 (0.3)
Router: LevelOne NetCon WBR-3408 (0.2)
Netcard: Sandberg Wireless G54 PCI (0.2)

Total cost: 11100.- DKK / 1956$ ..Might have to add a bit for transport. So roughly 2000$.
Computers are more expensive due to 25% added VAT on everything and maybe overall higher prices?

Hmm, I might have to rethink the CPU cooler though.

I'll look through the replies for CPU coolers. But feel free to suggest me one for the Phenom X4 940BE

March 18, 2009 8:51:38 PM

Quote:
The goal of this computer is that it will provide me smart high end performance at a medium cost.

You need to come back to this idea.
March 18, 2009 8:52:00 PM

I can't use the Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro because it only supports Celeron and Pentium 4, apparantly to this website.. Is this true?


The Maxorb cooler from Thermaltake I originally went for is AM2 socket. But am I not using the Am2+ socket?.. I am confused.

Also, many coolers seem to offer AM2 AND AM2+ support.. .. Will the maxorb cooler work with my current setup above? If not, I have another list of possible coolers here: http://edbpriser.dk/Products/Listproducts.asp?ID=240&Pa...
March 18, 2009 8:52:36 PM

If I were you I'd spend half the money on a Sapphire 4850 X2 2GB (which performs extremelly well, I would argueably say best bang/buck ATI card for high-end gaming), and in a year and a half, buy another card of it's type (bang/buck) and you'll of gotten 3 years of maxed out gaming for the price of the 295.

Also, since you're an MMORPG gamer, check out the benches for that card on Anandtech dual core review. I know AoC isn't your game exactly, but it's stupidly taxing and has lots of graphic RAM use (and AoC is a little ATI biased in that benchmark), but that card crushes cards that are 50% more expensive.
March 18, 2009 8:54:51 PM

MykC said:
Quote:
The goal of this computer is that it will provide me smart high end performance at a medium cost.

You need to come back to this idea.


Okay, okay.. So you're implying the 295GTX is a bad choice. ...

Fine, I'll read through that article. Wasnt able to find the march version. .. But graphics is just one area that cannot be understimated. It's the whole purpose of buying a new computer. To play with the greatest graphics.
March 18, 2009 9:03:57 PM

To be honest if you have $2000 and you want the best experience over 6 years. Its called spend $400 case, PSU, HD and DVD drive. Spend $500 on a cpu/gpu/ram/mobo now and replace those parts every 18-24 months ($500 around). You shouldn't have to replace your CASE/PSU, you might have to replace your hard drive once. You sell the parts that you replace to cover a little bit of ground.

Look back at what a $2000 gaming system would of gotten you in 2004 (5years) and tell me if they would play a new game today.
March 18, 2009 9:15:38 PM

MykC said:
Quote:
The goal of this computer is that it will provide me smart high end performance at a medium cost.

You need to come back to this idea.


Okay.. So I've read the conclusion of the march article and it talks very favourably about the gtx 295. I quote (important is underlined):

Quote:



Codename: 2 x GT200b
Process: 55 nm
Universal Shaders: 480 (2 x 240)
Texture Units: 160 (2 x 80)
ROPs: 56 (2 x 28)
Memory Bus: 448-bit
Core Speed MHz: 576
Memory Speed MHz: 999 (1,998 effective)
DirectX/Shader Model: DX 10/SM 4.0


Nvidia's GeForce GTX 295 sporting SLI-on-a-card is the most powerful single graphics card on the planet (this is important because by far most games can't utilize SLI or Crossfire). Essentially two attached GeForce GTX 280 cards that have been merged, underclocked, and stripped of a few ROPs, the GeForce GTX 295 offers very notable gains over the Radeon HD 4870 X2 in the great majority of game titles. (It offers very notable gains over the 4870X2! What about over the 285 then?!) Even more impressive is that it does so while consuming less power than AMD's flagship does, which is no small feat.


So this does mean the 295 is a great choice.. You know. Graphics is the one area you can't save money on as a gamer. I've experienced many times shitty builds being able to run way better simply with a good GPU. ... You're right. A person should probably buy an above average computer at a medium cost.

But, I just can't sacrifice graphics when I know it gives 11 more fps (up to a playable 29.5 fps) in a demanding game (Crysis) with all eyecandy turned all the way up at 1920x1200 (which is what I want to play at since I bought this expensive monitor).

That 11 fps is what makes or breaks a game for me.. You can't have any fluent fights in any FPS if it lags just the slightest bit.. 29 fps ius actually very low, I would need 50 to be happy, but at least I can still kind of play it with all the beauties turned on. .. Ill turn some of it off to play competitively. ..

Now, even if Crysis is just an insane game and I probably wont ever play it.. I still think it puts a good example of what kind of performance requirements we will see from games in the future. I really think an ultra version of todays best single GPU card is the best choice I can make. .. Buying 2nd rate might work, but I just dont want ANY lag at all. Ever. For the next many years.. I guess I wont lag with a 285, but I do put quite a heavy load on it with the high resolution and the MAX settings.. It might lag.. And then I will be really upset that I didnt spend 30% extra to get the best single card on the planet. .. No. GTX 295 must get into that build.

But, nevertheless.. Thank you very much for trying to put some sense into me.. It's just that I am not REALLY looking after above average when it comes to graphics. Only when it comes to the rest of the computer. The graphics cannot be compromised with. It's the one area that really matters.

The point of building an above average cost computer is to ensure that it can match my GPU ambition and keep me in the game for the next 5 years. Buying new computers all the time is annoying and I do want to buy a new laptop when the time comes. At that point it will be nice if I can just upgrade my desktop with a better GPU than the 295 and it could still run things for me at medium settings seeing as the other components would be dated. .. THen I could spend some money on buying another laptop. ..



SORRY FOR THE WALLS OF TEXT!

:D 
March 18, 2009 9:34:34 PM

Quote:
To be honest if you have $2000 and you want the best experience over 6 years. Its called spend $400 case, PSU, HD and DVD drive. Spend $500 on a cpu/gpu/ram/mobo now and replace those parts every 18-24 months ($500 around). You shouldn't have to replace your CASE/PSU, you might have to replace your hard drive once. You sell the parts that you replace to cover a little bit of ground.

Look back at what a $2000 gaming system would of gotten you in 2004 (5years) and tell me if they would play a new game today.


I think a 2000$ gaming system from 2004 would have carried me so far. .. well, it would have been something like.

CPU: Pentium 4, 3.4GHZ
GPU: GeForce 6800 Ultra
RAM. 4Gb shitty 200mhz ram?

The 6800 Ultra (equivalent to 8600 gt desktop) is actually ranked in the 13th box on that march chart. My current GPU (mobile laptop 8600m, which is pretty good for a laptop) is in the 15th box. ..

The ultra would have carried me well for 3 years. It is equivalent to a 8600 GT. So, hypothetically, I could have a decent mediocre card in my 6800 ultra during the era of the 8800gts. .. I could even still play on the 6800 ultra as my littlebrother is using a 8600 gt and it is working perfectly fine.

No.. I think the top GPU from back then would still carry 5 years later. But, the CPU, the RAM and the motherboard would be utter shite... hahaha. It would. But, playable nevertheless. And probably do even better if I bought a good mediocre, new ATI bang for the buck card.

.. That is the reason I want to buy a good motherboard, ram (not 800mhz ddr2 ***) and a good CPU. (thanks for convincing me the Phenom II X4 940BE is a good choice).


So anyways.. I think I'm settled on this one. I just need to pick a CPU cooler and I can start ordering the parts later this week or next week. Whenever..

Unless you can convince me I really AM making a mistake. As far as I am concerned. The 6800 ultra 5 years ago would still work pretty well today.
March 18, 2009 9:39:21 PM

Holy *** MykC. The XIGMATEK RED SCORPION-S1283 is awesome. It is also very new, from 4/3-09. (At least in this Danish shop).

I can buy it. Thanks a lot. .. This is a great CPU cooler.
March 19, 2009 4:12:02 AM

Yeah, but that pos card from 5 years ago wouldn't be able to play any game in the last 2 years with any kind of settings on in any kind of decent resolution for the monitor you plan on getting/got.

Would you rather get 80 fps today...65 fps in a year...50 fps in 2 years...40 fps in 3 years...start turning all your settings off...35 fps in 4 years...28 fps in 5 years with everything turned to 'Low"

OR

Would you rather have 70 fps today..60 fps next year...buy new value card...65 fps 3rd year...55 fps for 4th year...start playing games on medium settings...45 fps for 5th year....then rehaul system again

That's the question. It's a shinier, prettier option to take #1. That's why nVidia and ATI are in business today, because of people that make this questionable decision (and ironic enough, that's what puts the system in place for the more informed to take advantage of it). You don't sound like you really want anyone's advice here and are just looking for a 3rd partys justification to throw your money away.

Best of luck if you want to ignore an entire thread and forum and people advising you to spend your money wisely. This is of course all predicated on the fact you actually have a budget you want to stick to, which it sounds like it isn't. So just go out and buy a new $2,000 PC every 2 years so you can post your 3d Mark scores to your MMORPG guilds website
March 19, 2009 6:08:00 AM

Drakleon. Why don't you shut up, please?

I understand this is often the case with people posting questions about new builds. They sometimes want reassurance that their choice is the best and ignore the suggestions made by others

But, this is not what I have done. I have actually come out richer from this thread due to all the help I've had, particularly from MykC. I've chosen a different cpu, cpu cooler, motherboard and harddrive.

I was going to take advice on the gpu as well, but I reasoned it out in my previous posts why I want the 295gtx and why I think it's a good idea. So I think you are being a bit unfair towards me.
March 19, 2009 6:13:45 AM

Also, the 295 gtx is only about 30% more expensive- plus it is a good choice for me as I will not play any other games but this same mmorpg for the next years. .. So I think you are being a bit unfair towards me.

Anyways.. I'm going to start ordering things soon.

I'll post here if something comes up. Thanks for all your help. And especially Enthusiast MykC! :D  But also everyone else who posted here. Tomshardware forums rules ;) 
March 19, 2009 6:24:32 AM

No problem. Enjoy your 295 for MMORPGs at 1920x1200.

lol.
March 19, 2009 3:40:56 PM

Yes, yes.. I will. It's a great card.
March 19, 2009 4:19:15 PM

ZtyX said:
Also, the 295 gtx is only about 30% more expensive- plus it is a good choice for me as I will not play any other games but this same mmorpg for the next years. .. So I think you are being a bit unfair towards me.


Okay, now, if you really were going to play crysis you'd have a reason to buy a 295 gtx, but as you are mentioning here, you will be playing the same mmorpg for the next few years. Even if you were playing it for one year, and then switched onto a different game in a year that needed a better graphics card, it would be more resourceful to buy a cheaper card now, and be able to put the money towards something even better than a 295 gtx within the next two years.

But like I said, I think this thread is just you trying to convince yourself on your own choices.

For instance, if you're going the Nvidia route you could go with a 9800 GTX+, save around $400 in the process (295 GTX would be 300% more expensive) or if you actually took a step out and tried an ATI 4850 or 4870 (even x2), you'd save a lot of money.

Think of what you can do with $400... and I'm fairly certain a 9800 GTX+ will run your game flawlessly for the next however many years, unless you want to play Crysis of course, which I highly doubt you do. By the time you're ready to play a new game, the 295 GTX won't be the top of the line and will probably cost $200-$250 less, if not more... technology is flying exponentially now.

I guess the point is here... If you can clearly afford the card, then definately buy it. If you could use the money for other things, than don't spend it on this GPU upgrade, it really won't be worth it. =P

-Riley
March 19, 2009 5:24:35 PM

Feed the homeless for a week or get 1 more FPS...decisions decisions.
March 19, 2009 6:58:20 PM

I've ordered all the parts, but decided to purchase another case as the Matrix VX didn't get good reviews. I chose a Thermaltake Tsunami Va3000BWA. It's a light case, only 6kg. Just like the matrix. But it has better airflow and is more sturdy. Also, you can lock it in 3 different places. it's overall a nice case.


So, I think that concludes my hunt. Thanks for all the help.

I might get back here when I start to build, although it should be fairly simple and there is another thread about that somewhere around here..

Take care TH
March 19, 2009 7:11:35 PM

*** ing play with laggy *** 30 fps. So suggesting that I buy a value card is out of the question when I want a computer that can run 1920x1200 with antialiasing (preferably x16 in games allowing it), full AF and everything at MAX.

Yes, a lot of games will run perfectly fine with a mediocre, but brand new card. However, I want to push the graphics all the way up, run lots of applications with multiple monitors and experience completely smooth gameplay higher than 30 fps or playable rates value cards can give me.

Furthermore, I think there is a difference running an mmorpg and a singleplayer game which all the reviews and benchmarks are based on. AoC being an exception. mmos are notorious for making you lag.. and its really terrible because they are the most fun games.

Anyways. I've taken lots of advice and I thanked everyone for it. But, I went through my options and made a choice. I am the one who has to play on it for a long time, not you. I reject your approval as proof that I don't seek it. ;D

But, to end positively I just want to repeat myself and say thank you.
March 19, 2009 7:46:15 PM

ZtyX said:
But, I went through my options and made a choice. I am the one who has to play on it for a long time, not you.


Yes, but since you posted on the forum asking for help we are free to give our feedback, even if you don't agree with it. Which you basically came in with a genre-elitest background and started pumping your fists that you knew exactly what you wanted and nobody was going to change your mind. You should have specified what medium cost means to you, because it is much higher than medium for me.

My system right now has a 9800GTX+ in it, running two screens. I'm not sure how Lord of the Rings Online compares with Darkfall, but I'd assume the specifications are very similar. I run Lord of the Rings all on Ultra High settings, antialiasing, and have not felt any hiccups in raids unless it had something to do with my actual internet connection.

Here is my final suggestion, you have two options:

Option One:
GTX 295
Bragging rights to all your fellow mmorpg buddies who only have a 9800GTX+.

Option Two:
9800 GTX+
Shampoo
Conditioner
Cologne
5 Dinner and a Movie Dates
One year of feeding a child in Africa
Ability to buy the GTX 295 when you actually need it in the future

Just giving you your options, since you asked, but you already know everything.

You're welcome.

-Riley
March 19, 2009 8:17:30 PM

drakleon84 said:
No problem. Enjoy your 295 for MMORPGs at 1920x1200.

lol.


I agree with drake on this. You would have been completely fine with a gtx 260 core 216 or gtx 285. And then when you need SLI or Crossfire a year from now, if not longer, then you can do that. The best part about that is those cards will be cheaper by the time you need a second one. I just ordered a x3 720be + gigagbyte board combo and a 4870 1 gb. It is for gaming on a 24" monitor. I will crossfire another 4870 probably for christmas or when I need it.

But still it is all your choice to the OP. Just giving some advice though! :p 
March 19, 2009 8:24:33 PM

ZtyX said:
*** ing play with laggy *** 30 fps. So suggesting that I buy a value card is out of the question when I want a computer that can run 1920x1200 with antialiasing (preferably x16 in games allowing it), full AF and everything at MAX.

Yes, a lot of games will run perfectly fine with a mediocre, but brand new card. However, I want to push the graphics all the way up, run lots of applications with multiple monitors and experience completely smooth gameplay higher than 30 fps or playable rates value cards can give me.

Furthermore, I think there is a difference running an mmorpg and a singleplayer game which all the reviews and benchmarks are based on. AoC being an exception. mmos are notorious for making you lag.. and its really terrible because they are the most fun games.

Anyways. I've taken lots of advice and I thanked everyone for it. But, I went through my options and made a choice. I am the one who has to play on it for a long time, not you. I reject your approval as proof that I don't seek it. ;D

But, to end positively I just want to repeat myself and say thank you.



It appears to be moot at this point, but you keep bringing up '30 fps'. The only time I've seen it in this thread was in my post explaining that I'm running an MMORPG on highest setting with a budget card on a build I threw together for under $600. That was not a suggestion for you to go out and buy a budget card by any means. I only threw that out there to try to help show that you don't need to be buying the most expensive GPU you can find to run today's MMO's.

I think any of the cards recommended to you, especially the 4870/9800/260 will do everything you need it to and more. The cards recommended absolutely crush what I have

Again, it's all moot as it sounds like you have your mind made up. Just wanted to clarify in the event you thought I was suggesting you buy the card I'm using.

Good luck with your build.
March 19, 2009 8:50:40 PM

I love this thread
!