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Is Intel pulling an nVidia?

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June 18, 2009 1:15:51 AM

Just like in an old movie, "rename it, and they will buy"

"The upcoming Lynnfield chip (desktop) will be available as either Intel Core i5 or Intel Core i7 depending upon the feature set and capability, Calder wrote. Clarksfield (mobile) will have the Intel Core i7 name.

Arrandale (32-nanometer mobile) will appear as the Core i3 but will ultimately span the Core brand to include Core i3, Core i5, and Core i7. Clarkdale (32-nanometer desktop) will be available under the Core i3 and Intel Core i5 brands, Calder said. "

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10266536-64.html

This sounds confusing as h3!!

More about : intel pulling nvidia

June 18, 2009 1:55:17 AM

Trickling down the 'Core i7' name to LGA1156 isn't exactly the same as rebranding is it?
It's going to get bloody confusing when trying to explain that's for sure.

I think eventually by end of 2010 or early 2011 they want to phase out all quadcore SKUs for LGA1336. Perhaps they'll use i9 for hexcores.
June 18, 2009 2:10:11 AM

Well, for instance, nVidia has a 260m, and a 260. 1 is a G92 core, and 1 is a G200 core. Sorta the same.
It will be confuzzling for sure. Maybe the exec just got it wrong?
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June 18, 2009 2:12:49 AM

Let me put it this way, buying an i7, youd expect tri channel,qpi etc.
Going this route, its no longer that way
June 18, 2009 2:17:14 AM

You know... they could always rebrand all upcoming i7 to i9 as well...
I'm not ruling that out! :lol: 

Since there won't be many quadcore LGA1336 left in the SKU by 2011, that shouldn't be a problem.

[FIXED]
June 18, 2009 2:23:47 AM

So i7 is eoled sometime next year?
June 18, 2009 3:23:23 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
So i7 is eoled sometime next year?

For LGA1336, yes. Maybe they'll leave one behind like 975XE (which could also be rebranded to i9), maybe.
That leaves i7 pretty much to LGA1156 exclusively if they did that.

That CNet news is still a very wild rumor tho, as wild as my speculations. ;) 
June 18, 2009 4:42:13 AM

Im thinking this is going to go over like a led zepplin, over the hills and far away. Just reading various comments on this, most people find it : confusing,deceptive, and an all around pain in the arse.
Seems we'll need a compro chart soon, just to help folks understand that no, they dont have HT, or no, they wont be getting turbo, or , yes, it is an i7, but no tri channel for you
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June 18, 2009 4:48:58 AM

Time to start calling things by the "socket" rather than the family name.
June 18, 2009 4:57:56 AM

Thats the problem here. A 1156 i7, with of course no qpi or tri channel etc.
I still think it was a mistake for Intel to go to a 2 tiered setup, and this is just part of the result from it
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June 18, 2009 5:18:55 AM

There were rumors a couple of years ago that S1366 (may as well start now) would be only an interim solution, and then would be relegated to the high end. That's the main reason I stuck with S775. Right now, for me, fast enough is good enough.
June 18, 2009 5:33:55 AM

I knew that theyd be going 2 tiered, didnt like it then either. Thing is, will we see 6 core chips on anything other than 1366? And will 6 cores be productive on soon to be tommorows DT?
Im just not sure where Intel is going with this, and, as a user and buyer, it makes me concerned for which path I take.
I love i5, or now the new lil i7. But for it to be broken down this much is maybe too much?

Anyways, its sure going to be busy on the forums, and building machines for people, trying to explain exactly what they have, what they want, and what they really need.

PS
Like the title, trying to explain the 8800GTS vs the 9800GTX vs the 9800GTX+ vs the G250 thing heheh
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June 18, 2009 8:27:32 AM

jsc said:
There were rumors a couple of years ago that S1366 (may as well start now) would be only an interim solution, and then would be relegated to the high end. That's the main reason I stuck with S775. Right now, for me, fast enough is good enough.

+1
June 18, 2009 9:48:05 AM

I need hexcore and I'm not going to get it until I can confirm the VRM of current X58 boards supports them, plus see BIOS support of course.
Last time many got burnt with early 975X mobos not supporting Core2s due to earlier rev. VRM and admittedly I shamefully contributed to that mess back then.

Well, I'm not going to fall into that trap this time. In the mean time C2Q 3.6Ghz is still acceptable for me to do my work.
June 18, 2009 10:51:34 AM

The last three comments is what concerns me. Usually, people are chompin at the bit to get the newest, bestest and brightest cpu, but now its "good enough", which, is also a nVidia situation. The G80/92s were good enough, and still are to this day, according to many people. The G200 wasnt all that, and it too came with other chimes and whistles, which work, are nice etc, but the perf wasnt there as in the past, ala i7 vs C2D.
I guess I just hate complacency, as it appears from the products being released, its where were heading.
Now, you can make the argument that the i7 does those other things very well, or that i5 is better than C2D, etc, and comes in at a decent price, but neither are world shakers, ala the G200. Am I, are we, expecting too much? Or, has Intel diverted in its path towards server domination, that DT is somewhat meh?
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June 18, 2009 10:55:22 AM

wuzy said:
I need hexcore


Which is why you wait until it actually releases before you buy the mobo.
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June 18, 2009 11:05:27 AM

I don't think GPUs are good enough, but since Core 2 CPUs have lasted alot longer than usual. A first-generation Core 2 Duo is still pretty powerful even today, provided you're not using heavily multi-threaded applications. That said I don't believe in the existence of "overkill" hardware, only overkill within the context of its use.
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June 18, 2009 11:11:52 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
The last three comments is what concerns me. Usually, people are chompin at the bit to get the newest, bestest and brightest cpu, but now its "good enough", which, is also a nVidia situation. The G80/92s were good enough, and still are to this day, according to many people. The G200 wasnt all that, and it too came with other chimes and whistles, which work, are nice etc, but the perf wasnt there as in the past, ala i7 vs C2D.
I guess I just hate complacency, as it appears from the products being released, its where were heading.
Now, you can make the argument that the i7 does those other things very well, or that i5 is better than C2D, etc, and comes in at a decent price, but neither are world shakers, ala the G200. Am I, are we, expecting too much? Or, has Intel diverted in its path towards server domination, that DT is somewhat meh?

One of the problems is that the software (or games as far as most are concerned) has yet to catch up, for example, if you look back at when the Q6600 was released all the kiddies jumped on the 'you must get one they roXer, an soon all game gonna be multi-threaded an if you don't got one you suX' and over two years later we still don't have all these multi-threaded games that we were going to be inundated with and the Q6600 has been superseded twice now with the 45nm 775 Quad's and the release of i7, DX10.1 is/was the other non-starter that people were hyping up as a 'must have' and ATi cards can do it so they are better and Nvidia cards can't so don't get one of them, but where are all these DX10.1 games that only the ATi cards can run?
June 18, 2009 11:15:22 AM

I agree. GPUs have much further to go to reach their zenith.

Im just sorta like, meh about alot of this. Its like gaming. Great cards/prices out now, never been better, but the SW (games) fails its full potential for the most part.
Same with cpus. wusy will do wonders with his eventual hex core, but for most people? No SW for their usage.
Its like taking the wow factor out , or, like throwing a party, and no one goes to it. Helluva party, but, meh
So, in essence, I guess even if they did release a killer cpu, one that was strictly tuned for DT usage, it couldnt be used currently anyways to its potential
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June 18, 2009 11:17:32 AM

randomizer said:
I don't think GPUs are good enough, but since Core 2 CPUs have lasted alot longer than usual. A first-generation Core 2 Duo is still pretty powerful even today, provided you're not using heavily multi-threaded applications. That said I don't believe in the existence of "overkill" hardware, only overkill within the context of its use.


Well... we are reaching the limits...

Almost...

Still harder to code multithreadly.

Core was an awesomo arch.
June 18, 2009 11:26:15 AM

nVidia is coming in with its DX10.1 now, and tho I know what youre saying, it was nVidia that was the original DX10 killer. Their HW wasnt fully capable, unlike ATIs. When that occurs, and you have marketing going heavy, to the extent that the first real decent DX10.1 game was "patched", thus taking out the DX10.1 HW compliancy, putting it back down the the dumbed down nVidia DX10, the market is swayed by, an entity that seeks its own ends, and not progress for progress sake.
I cant say that in this instance Intel tried doing this, even tho tri channel is as useless as ya know what on a boar, in regards to DT.
I guess a similar response would be, where are all those tri channel apps? nVidia itself said DX10.1 wasnt needed, and that theyd be going to DX11, well thats not so. Intel never made such claims as tri channel would benefit DT, on the contrary, they said i7 was aimed mostly at server from the get go. nVidia likes to claim their G200 series as being both a leap in gpgpu and gaming, which it isnt
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June 18, 2009 11:34:40 AM

Well, for example a 9600GSO SLi will beat the **** out of a GTX 260...

$70 SLi

Nvidia really has to stop the GT200 craze...
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June 18, 2009 11:40:25 AM

amdfangirl said:
Well... we are reaching the limits...

We were reaching the limits when computers used vacuum tubes too. Limits come and go all the time but we keep advancing regardless. Software is hard to make multithreaded but not impossible. Just look at the video transcoders. Developers are just too lazy.

amdfangirl said:
Nvidia really has to stop the GT200 craze...

They need to stop the G9x craze too. We need new stuff. However, while the GTS250 is selling like hotcakes they have no reason to innovate.
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June 18, 2009 11:42:36 AM

Well a more efficient arch for a start...
June 18, 2009 11:46:08 AM

G300 is supposedly that arch. Itll be once again huge, but its DP for its gpgpu work will be nice, and with all the everything theyve put in it, itll be a gamer too. Tho, I guess you mightent call that efficient
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June 18, 2009 11:58:01 AM

They need to drop the mega-dies.
June 18, 2009 12:05:10 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
I guess I just hate complacency, as it appears from the products being released, its where were heading.
Now, you can make the argument that the i7 does those other things very well, or that i5 is better than C2D, etc, and comes in at a decent price, but neither are world shakers, ala the G200. Am I, are we, expecting too much? Or, has Intel diverted in its path towards server domination, that DT is somewhat meh?


The exact same can be said for nVidia. They're so hell bent on dominating GPGPU with CUDA right now (while OpenCL still only taking off) that they're willing to let ATi/AMD to dominate profit-per-card for 3D gaming and oftenly $/performance also.

IMO current i7 quadcore on LGA1336 is more like a get-ready-to-make-profit platform. Because eventually all LGA1336 users buying new processors from 2011 onward will be running at least 6cores, with very little or no cheaper quadcores for the socket.
And it makes sense because LGA1336 is WAY overkill for 4 cores only under desktop/workstation usage.
June 18, 2009 2:16:33 PM

Well, the OS is ready/coming. The D3D is ready/coming , and having many cores will eventually be a good thing. But theres few and far in between apps for them.
Having the tri channel, which will be useless for DT for awhile to come, and forcing it upon buyers, its like, running sandra in the older days, and seeing AMD dominate the BW, but to what effect? Only, like you say, this time we pay dearly for it, and the useful part, going wider for more potential, will be squeezed out on the high end, and a 2 tier is set up.
I see what youre saying, and its what Id feared all along, Intel just isnt getting it. Maybe BD will come along and knock some sense back into Intel. Like I said, I hate complacency, especially at such a cost, our cost
June 18, 2009 11:21:34 PM

jsc said:
There were rumors a couple of years ago that S1366 (may as well start now) would be only an interim solution, and then would be relegated to the high end. That's the main reason I stuck with S775. Right now, for me, fast enough is good enough.


They are integrating the northbridge onto the lynnfield chip. I wouln't be suprised if they did the same for the high end chips. Really, there is no need for the power-hunger northbridge anymore. It is only acting as a bottleneck between the CPU, GPUs, and southbridge. Now that the memory controller has been integrated to the CPU, it seems logical for the same to happen with the PCI-Express links.

QPI will probably only be needed by multi-CPU platforms like servers, but not single CPU platforms.
June 19, 2009 1:28:36 AM

I think I understand now. Intel is about to open up its own can-o-whoopass on nVidia, and confuse, have more products, and more products going from known setup accross another than nVidia could ever do
June 19, 2009 5:51:40 AM

I call for.... (wait for it) PR Rating!!! :lol: 
June 19, 2009 2:51:18 PM

So now what? Is it better to buy a Core i7 920 now (before Intel EOL's the chip and prices skyrocket from lack of supply) or wait for the "new" and crippled Core i7 8xx (LGA 1156)?

The main issue seems to be dual vs. triple channel memory. Is getting triple channel now a better way to future proof ("one day triple channel will become standard anyway")?

With Gulftown coming up (which I hope is 100% sure to be socket LGA1366 and to be compatible with X58!), building a system around i7 920 seems to be a relatively cheap way to catapult yourself into the ultra-high-end market for a while to come.

I'm just not that excited about Lynnfield (although of course it's too early to know for sure). Even if it OC's better, it's still crippled compared to Bloomfield (DMI vs QPI, less PCIe16 lanes).
I'm not worried about raw CPU power, you can always get a higher binning. What I'm concerned about is system performance as a whole (memory subsystem, Northbridge...)

Or am I wrong? Is this LGA1366 a dead road for non-server usage?
I am SOO confused now. Thanks for nothing, Intel!!
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June 19, 2009 3:46:32 PM

Intel deserve to lose another 10% market sure just for their own sheer stupidity.
June 19, 2009 3:59:35 PM

I dont see the 920 going eol, and as wuzy pointed out, itll be another year before 1366 is gone, as therell be abother tic in Intels tic tock strategy.
As for tri channel, like I alluded to earlier, in the past, AMD had superior BW abilities because they were using a IMC, as Intel is today with i7, but whatd it get AMD once C2D arrived? Tri channel wont be used anytime soon in the vast majority of DT apps, tho theres always going to be an occasional exception
June 19, 2009 10:29:16 PM

Quote:
With Gulftown coming up (which I hope is 100% sure to be socket LGA1366 and to be compatible with X58!), building a system around i7 920 seems to be a relatively cheap way to catapult yourself into the ultra-high-end market for a while to come.

On LGA1336, definitely. Works with X58, of course. Compatible with current X58 motherboards? Wait and see.

Quote:
I'm just not that excited about Lynnfield (although of course it's too early to know for sure). Even if it OC's better, it's still crippled compared to Bloomfield (DMI vs QPI, less PCIe16 lanes).
I'm not worried about raw CPU power, you can always get a higher binning. What I'm concerned about is system performance as a whole (memory subsystem, Northbridge...)

I think I'm already getting tired of explaining the difference between Lynnfield's(LGA1156) integrated 16 PCIe 2.0 lanes vs. LGA1336 using QPI for everything, but the kitchen sink. DMI will always serves the purpose of providing low bandwidth required by peripheral devices like SATA, USB, PCIe 1x...etc., as it has done for so many years.

MCSmarties said:
Or am I wrong? Is this LGA1366 a dead road for non-server usage?
I am SOO confused now. Thanks for nothing, Intel!!


Quote:
The main issue seems to be dual vs. triple channel memory. Is getting triple channel now a better way to future proof ("one day triple channel will become standard anyway")?

This is exactly the type of marketing I'm talking about. People are being made to think they'll need the bandwidth of triple-channel eventually when desktops apps. can't even make full use of BW provided by dual-channel DDR2s. I've only seen the exception of science calculation benchmarks which relies on memory heavily taking advantage of i7's triple-channel DDR3, and that's classed as workstation usage.


Basically you're a prime example of people who got affected by Intel's marketing, being lured to buy LGA1336 so they can be forced to upgrade to hex/octo core in the future. (which is actually something my work requires)
June 19, 2009 11:12:42 PM

Quote:
Basically you're a prime example of people who got affected by Intel's marketing, being lured to buy LGA1336 so they can be forced to upgrade to hex/octo core in the future. (which is actually something my work requires)

Thanks for pointing that out, wuzy. I'm serious! Yeah, maybe I've lots track of what my real needs are.

So I take it you would recommend to wait for Lynnfield?

But is Lynnfield really going to be a better choice? For one thing, I doubt it would really be much cheaper than Bloomfield (talking about the higher end Lynnfields, not the crippled low end ones) since the CPU price is similar...
Would the switch of QPI to DMI really make Mobos much cheaper?

And also, at least the LGA1366/X58 platform seems to be relatively mature. I expect Lynnfield/P55 to take a while to mature as well... so I would have to wait for quite a while...

So if I need to buy a new system "now" (say within the next month) what's my best bet? Stick with the soon-to-be-dead LGA775? Get LGA1366, marketing be damned? Or switch to AMD altogether even if performance is quite a bit lower and likely to stay that way for a while to come?
June 19, 2009 11:26:46 PM

Quote:
Would the switch of QPI to DMI really make Mobos much cheaper?

Technically DMI isn't a replacement for QPI, as it's also present on X58 motherboards. DMI serves one purpose only as outlined in my previous post.
By totally integrating northbridge into LGA1156 processors and just leaving the southbridge (what P55 actually is) on the mobo, theoretically they should cost less than LGA775 motherboards. That's not likely to happen in the beginning obviously.

Quote:
And also, at least the LGA1366/X58 platform seems to be relatively mature. I expect Lynnfield/P55 to take a while to mature as well... so I would have to wait for quite a while...
In terms of BIOS tweaking/overclocking development, yes. Motherboards all run very stable if ran at stock.

Quote:
So if I need to buy a new system "now" (say within the next month) what's my best bet? Stick with the soon-to-be-dead LGA775? Get LGA1366, marketing be damned? Or switch to AMD altogether even if performance is quite a bit lower and likely to stay that way for a while to come?

The new LGA775 is Socket AM3, mainly Phenom IIs. (No, I'm not bored enough to go into the Hombuilt forum and try to convince those still recommending LGA775s)
Depends on what your build is primarily used for.
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June 20, 2009 1:25:49 AM

LGA775 is only good if you can do it dirt cheap or you just need to drop in a new CPU to your current system. Q6600 for me :D 
June 20, 2009 4:14:20 AM

Id add, tho wuzy is correct in saying, early on, mobos/full rigged i5s will suffer from the "new" pricing, 1 thing that will set them apart is tri vs dual channel in mobo costs. If features are the same, a dual should cost less.

Another is power usage. The i5s come in at a great TDP overall, and tho having the NB on chip may effect ocing, we wont know this til more things get "leaked"
June 20, 2009 4:46:50 PM

For me, bottom line is that I'm going to wait a little bit longer. As jaydeejohn said, there's not enough reliable information on i5 leaked yet. Hope there will be some more coming over the next few weeks. I'll keep monitoring the situation very closely that's for sure!
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June 21, 2009 6:47:47 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Let me put it this way, buying an i7, youd expect tri channel,qpi etc.
Going this route, its no longer that way


They would have to be a complete idiot to not make sure the memory is tri channel (3/6/12GB) and that it has QPI.

And if they build a system and don't match the mobo socket with the CPU socket thats another idiodic mistake. Its like mixing up a S939 with a AM2....

Either way its not the same efect as what nVidia did. What nVidia did is took the exact same performance card and renamed it. 8800=9800. And from what it looks like the 260m is the mobile GPU with the 260 name but a G92 core. Its to get sales. Very effective way to bluff blind people into buying it for a higher price than its truly worth.
June 21, 2009 6:55:04 AM

To me, having i5s as we understood them , Intel elevates them to i7 status, which is very similar to what nVidia has done. Look at the ratings for a top s775, the ones Intels decided to eol.
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June 26, 2009 1:59:07 AM

^+10, lol Also, good to be correct about the x58 platform.
!