Where have all the nVidia chipsets gone? Oh SNAP

[JAYDEEJOHN]

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=734&type=expert&pid=1

Good read

 

[Mousemonkey]

X58 and maybe the P55.

 

[jennyh]

Not a bad article. Although the author touched on the real reasons behind it, he didn't really want to elaborate.

It's pretty apparent that either AMD or Nvidia are going bust. Nvidia made what looked to be the sensible decision 18-12 months ago, which was all but abandoning AMD and hopefully {from nv's pov} taking down ATI when they finally capitulated. That would have left Nvidia in total control of the discrete gpu market and in a very good position to threaten Intel on igp's.

It would have worked had Phenom II been as bad as Phenom, and if r700 was as mediocre as r600. But neither was, in fact both have breathed new life into AMD.

Now Nvidia are seeing just how hard intel "compete". They had a willing partner in AMD and they blew it - and make no mistake - AMD are now out to finish off Nvidia because that is their best hope vs the almighty intel too.

With Nvidia gone, AMD would clean up on graphics and start to really pressure Intel in the gaming/enthusiast sector using Nvidia's old nforce-only sli trick. Take that $3bn a year from Nvidia and put it into AMD's hands and there might even be a chance.

They are both out to kill each other off, no question about it. That is why we have enjoyed incredible gpu prices for the last year - For every $1 AMD lose on graphics, Nvidia are probably losing $5.

 

[ausch30]

I didn't read the article but the one thing that most don't realize is that nvidia has been releasing poor IGP's and chipsets for quite some time. The big money is in the OEM market and with all the returns and lawsuits against Nvidia chipsets the OEM's are shying away from them. Not to mention that Nvidia hasn't really released a completely new chipset since the 680i which was about 3 years ago and had a list of problems all it's own. Nvidia has been living on borrowed time and unless they do something radical with VIA or something, are done. When I think of things like Nvidia releasing the same card under a different name(s) or their 3D Vision thing, I think gimmick. It's simply something to keep them in the news and keep the mis/under- informed buying their products. They do have the single fastest video card available at this time and that's their biggest goal. In their minds, if they remain at that point then there are those that will follow them anywhere simply because "they're the best".

It's been talked about for some time but I don't think the whole CP/GPU thing has gotten the press it deserves. If you look at the way the industry is headed it's more about parallel processing and video processing than crunching numbers sequentially. In a few years (I believe) the GPU will become the CPU as serial processing becomes less prominent. Although AMD took on a great burden and almost killed themselves buying ATI, it was the best thing they could have done.

 

[Major_Spittle]

larabee

 

[ausch30]

larabee

It might be great but where is it? Intel has a lot of experience making shitty IGP's. They have the money but do they have the ability to make a good IGP? Or maybe they'll just do what they have always done and spend what they should have on R&D, on marketing.

 

[Major_Spittle]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

 

[wasteoftime]

That whole article hinges on the idea that Nvidia really cares whether or not they have any market share anymore in the AMD chipset crowd. It's pretty apparent that AMD has really dropped the ball in that whole making quality processors thing they used to be known for. They have virtually no credit anymore with the enthusiast crowd. They've become so far behind Intel in almost every way that without some sort of regulation there's absolutely no way they will ever actually catch up. It's a sinking ship. Nvidia wanted off. Who can blame them?

 

[ausch30]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

I have faith in Intel and I know they will release a product (as well as marketing for said product) just good enough to sway, know nothing, purchasers in their direction. They have done an incredible job the last few years with the C2D and up. I'm just not convinced that they can do the same at the outset in the GPU market. I think it will take a couple generations for them to get the picture that consumers want performance, not a name.

 

[Major_Spittle]

Nvidia's days are numbered. Nvidia is trying to jump ship with Nvidia before the big squeeze.

Intel owns IGP and now they want discrete graphics. To gain market share quickly Intel is bringing x86 to graphics. Intel is doing the same thing in the mobil cpu market. Intel is making themselves and Microsoft big winners in all technology.

The plan is in motion now. Larabee will hit the market early 2010. Intel is unstoppable and resistance if futile. Nvidia knows it, watch them squirm. Nvidia has no x86 license but is trying to develop x86 cpu/gpus. Things that make you go, hmmmmm.

 

[ausch30]

Nvidia's days are numbered. Nvidia is trying to jump ship with Nvidia before the big squeeze.

Intel owns IGP and now they want discrete graphics. To gain market share quickly Intel is bringing x86 to graphics. Intel is doing the same thing in the mobil cpu market. Intel is making themselves and Microsoft big winners in all technology.

The plan is in motion now. Larabee will hit the market early 2010. Intel is unstoppable and resistance if futile. Nvidia knows it, watch them squirm. Nvidia has no x86 license but is trying to develop x86 cpu/gpus. Things that make you go, hmmmmm.

There has been talk of Nvidia and VIA (who has an X86 license) getting together but most people will need a lot of convincing to plunk down money for a product from VIA. You are correct, and if Intel really puts their minds (and wallets) into a discrete GPU no one really has a chance. My bet is on that they'll treat it as they have the IGP market and end up with an "also ran". I think it will take a couple generations for them to get the picture and a few years from now they'll release something that will be revolutionary, just as the C2D was a couple years ago.

 

[Major_Spittle]

I have faith in Intel and I know they will release a product (as well as marketing for said product) just good enough to sway, know nothing, purchasers in their direction. They have done an incredible job the last few years with the C2D and up. I'm just not convinced that they can do the same at the outset in the GPU market. I think it will take a couple generations for them to get the picture that consumers want performance, not a name.

Intel has already created a GPU faster than anything Nvidia has. Also intel makes tons of tiny dual core hyperthreaded cached 45nm processors already. Soon they will be making 32nm versions.

Intel started the larrabee project years ago. Soon you will see the power of this FULLY FUNCTIONAL discrete graphics card. muh-huuu-huuu-ahhh.

btw: did you see what Intel did in the solid state drive department? They never made those before. Kinda makes you go, hmmmm.

 

[ausch30]

Intel has already created a GPU faster than anything Nvidia has. Also intel makes tons of tiny dual core hyperthreaded cached 45nm processors already. Soon they will be making 32nm versions.

Intel started the larrabee project years ago. Soon you will see the power of this FULLY FUNCTIONAL discrete graphics card. muh-huuu-huuu-ahhh.

btw: did you see what Intel did in the solid state drive department? They never made those before. Kinda makes you go, hmmmm.

Intel is good. I have an Intel chipset (which I love) and an Intel CPU which I have equal affection for. I guess in the back of my mind I want them to flounder a little and I want AMD/ATI to prosper so we can all benefit from better products for less money. I still remember the days, rather the 2 1/2 years, of the 8800GTX being $550 simply because there was nothing to compete. Just as now Intel has no reason to release more i7 CPU's or reduce the price of their X58 chipsets because there is nothing comparable (the cheapest i7-X58 combo is ~$500!!! For a CPU and chipset?). Competition benefits us all. Nvidia is on the way out, I just hope AMD/ATI is up to the task.

 

[Major_Spittle]

Sorry, AMD/ATI isn't up to the task.

At least Intel has put CPU prices at the lowest levels ever and continues to keep them there.

The difference between CPUs/GPUs in computers will become very blurred and adventually go away in teh next decade. Computer components and computer prices will continually decline. Someday the whole computer will consist of a disposable PCB with chips on it.

 

[ausch30]

Sorry, AMD/ATI isn't up to the task.

I hope that's just a fanboy statement and I hope you're wrong. I have faith in AMD/ATI simply because they had the foresight to bring ATI into the fold. Only time will tell.

The only reason Nvidia still has a following is due to fanboys dreaming of the nForce4 days. A lot of people currently are looking to build new systems and the reason they worship Nvidia is due to their experience with that chipset and the Athlon64 CPU. I'm all about the best product at the best price when I'm clicking add to my cart. I don't think any product is as good as it could be or should be because everyone is watching the bottom line a little too much.

 

[jennyh]

Sorry, AMD/ATI isn't up to the task.

At least Intel has put CPU prices at the lowest levels ever and continues to keep them there.

The difference between CPUs/GPUs in computers will become very blurred and adventually go away in teh next decade. Computer components and computer prices will continually decline. Someday the whole computer will consist of a disposable PCB with chips on it.

You're only as good as your weakest component. You know what that makes intel's fused cpu/gpu? ***, that's what.

 

[wuzy]

I'm all about the best product at the best price when I'm clicking add to my cart.

As do I. The stuffs on my "list" is constantly changing with the market. Sticking with one brand/product for a long time just means being weak-minded.

Back to the topic of this thread. Personally I think nVidia should stick to making more IGP chipsets for AMD processors, plus their goal of GPGPU domination with CUDA. The real fight in the graphics sector to come is between OpenCL (largely backed by Intel & AMD) and CUDA. 3D gaming performance will become a tag-along thing working on top of GPGPU.

 

[wasteoftime]

What? I don't know anyone that worships Nvidia because of a nForce 4 or because of an Athlon64. However, I do know an awful lot of people that like to use the Nvidia GPU to fold, game, and run reliably. When is the last time ATi pumped out a card that wasn't an absolute power hog, had reliable drivers, and didn't have issues with temperature beastly temps? I can't remember. The drivers DO get ironed out eventually. Regardless, who are the reliable ATi vendors again? What sort of service do they offer? If you want to get into semantics of why Nvidia has a following its because their vendors are better, their cards are better, they're better for the tweaking crowd and they support a lot of game development. Sli has almost always been a better solution than Crossfire (remember the dongle?), I could go on and on. I used to be a huge ATi fanboy, but they've done a lot to lose my support in the last three years. I'm glad it looks like they might be competitive again somehow, but if they don't get their act together Nvidia will probably swallow them up in the next generation or two.

On another note, AMD can't compete with Intel anymore and it's obvious they're not even really trying at this point. When is the last time you saw an AMD processor and went "oh, that looks good". Compared to a Core 2 system there's no reason to even try to go Phenom much less when you compare a Phenom to an i7. What exactly is AMD doing to compete other than applauding when Intel has the EU trying to rape them? All this media speculation about how AMD in returning to the game, or how they're getting better means nothing unless it's actually backed up by something other than hype. There's absolutely no compelling reason to go AMD over Intel unless you're one of those nerds that likes to whine about competition and how it'll benefit you in the long run. Until there is an actual compelling reason for a consumer to choose AMD they might as well just sit in the corner and pray they don't get crushed. It's not competition for Intel if there are no good products in the line and AMD hasn't been a viable competitor for almost three years.

 

[jennyh]

When is the last time ATi pumped out a card that wasn't an absolute power hog, had reliable drivers, and didn't have issues with temperature beastly temps? I can't remember.

How was Mars btw? I heard it was nice during the spring. Oh btw, while you were gone ATI released the 4770 and it craps on anything Nvidia can do at the price point.

 

[ausch30]

On another note, AMD can't compete with Intel anymore and it's obvious they're not even really trying at this point. When is the last time you saw an AMD processor and went "oh, that looks good". Compared to a Core 2 system there's no reason to even try to go Phenom much less when you compare a Phenom to an i7.

How about the Phenom II X4 940 Black Edition for the same price as the E8500. I have to admit that there really isn't any compelling reason to pick the E8500 over the X4 940, you are absolutely incorrect. The i7 is in a class of it's own and the price shows that. A competing product from AMD would bring it down to more realistic costs. Explain to me exactly why competition is a bad thing.

How about this, an outstanding upper mid-range setup, with upgrade ability, for $179.99 after rebate.

With all due respect jaydeejohn, I apologize for getting off subject.

 

[mindless728]

honestly, even with NV gone, i would still want AMD/ATI around, really, i don't get the fan-boys that say "no more AMD", if it wasn't for them around either Intel would jack their prices or be separated into different companies (monopoly)

 

[wasteoftime]

How was Mars btw? I heard it was nice during the spring. Oh btw, while you were gone ATI released the 4770 and it craps on anything Nvidia can do at the price point.

The 4770? What are you even talking about? Is that the competitive segment that everyone wants to control? How long do you think they've controlled that segment and how long do you think they can?


On paper the Phenom II 940 looks ok. Compare it to the Q8500 or Q9400 (a little bit higher price) and see what kind of contest it is then. Never mind the fact that you picked a processor (the e8500) that already outperforms the 940. Throw in overclocking and Intel still wipes the floor with AMD. I don't blame you for being an AMD apologist, but come to the table with something real.

 

[UberGenocide]

IMHO Nvidia>ATI

Better drivers equals better performance

The new 185.XX drivers and the newer 186.XX drivers give cards a considerable boost in performance

Gave me a 7-10 FPS increase in Crysis with my 9600 GT and a 5-7 increase in my 260 GTX

My brother got an ATI 4850 and played oblivion... dissapointment 30-40 FPS

Took it back to the store and got the competing 9800 GTX+ and ran 60 FPS+

If nvidia goes into the 'hole' i will be dissapointed

Uber

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

OK, what people are forgetting is that as soon as AMD does igp on chip, Intel automaticcally loses a good share of the igp market to begin with. Theyre already at their max in that market, unless the marketshare changes in cpu sales. So, to me, once AMD does their igp on chip, Intel loses.

nVidia should go back and embrace the AMD sales. Unless theyre losing money on them, I see no reason not to. Intels position is, cut them out, nVidias position is, cut them out, while AMD seems to want to just do business, and let the people/product decide sales. All these other comments about which is best has been going on since forever, or didnt anyone read that necro thread from 2002 here on Toms recently, about AMDs doom. The author states that some people love nVidia and Intel, and that may turn into a scenario thats also hard to come by.
nVidia has to redecide which path is its best most profitable future is, and quit jumping ship cause of competition. Sounds like a bunch of kids not getting their way to me.
As for LRB, and its impact, we may not know even how good itll be for another 2 generations of gpus to come yet, and speculation is already running wild with just the next gen coming up, so I wouldnt consider LRB at all at this point.
People have to realize also, that once LRB does hit the market, and DX11 and OCL land, those "favored games become less and less, as more devs will have more options for optimization.

 

[jennyh]

The 4770? What are you even talking about? Is that the competitive segment that everyone wants to control? How long do you think they've controlled that segment and how long do you think they can?

Yes it is. Where do you think the real $$'s are made on gpus? ATI are in full command of every pricepoint up to $100, which tbh is all that really counts in terms of cash. Seeing as Nvidia have nothing new coming out at the mainstream sector, I fully expect this to continue for the forseeable future. It won't be long before the 4870 costs the same as the gts250, giving ATI yet another commanding lead at the price points that actually count.