AMD and Intel General Discussion (not for getting help)

[randomizer]

What is this thread for?

General discussion about anything related to AMD and Intel. Rather than sending help threads into never-ending off-topic discussion you can do that here. It will hopefully stop discussion topics getting buried by innumerable help threads by keeping it all in one place. This is currently a pilot thread and may not exist indefinitely, it depends entirely on whether it successfully alleviates the off-topic discussion problem or not.

What CAN you post here?

Anything at all related to the two companies. Financial, legal, product-related, etc. Debates are fine and encouraged as long as they stay civil. Speculation is also fine, but keep baseless opinion to a minimum. An argument with evidence speaks volumes. An argument without evidence just increases volume.

What CAN'T you post here?

Requests for help on builds or problem-solving. Such posts will be ignored and deleted promptly. That is what the rest of the forum is for.

Important notes:

■While debates are encouraged, flame wars are not. Excessive trolling and/or flame-baiting will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.
■Debate the opinion, not the person. Personal attacks will NOT be tolerated. Offenders may find themselves on a long vacation.
■Read the ToS.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Great idea!! Didnt see the sticky til now. Hope this works

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Question, does this include speculation on new releases as well, with links?

 

[randomizer]

Absolutely. Just try to keep pure and unfounded opinion to a minimum, because arguments using opinions with zero evidence never end well.

 

[randomizer]

Well if all the flaming happens in one thread it's alot easier to deal with.

 

[roofus]

You forgot to include VIA. They will feel so slighted.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

OK, let the games begin!

From http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/article.aspx?Feed=BW&Date=20090623&ID=10044378&Symbol=INTC: (Astutely Astoundingly Astonishing news!!!)

Intel Inside Nearly Eighty Percent of the World’s Fastest Supercomputers

More supercomputers than ever are using Intel Corporation processors, according to the latest TOP500 list. The high performance computing (HPC) community is especially enthusiastic about the Intel® Xeon® 5500 processor series. Launched only 3 months ago these chips are already driving the research and analytical capabilities of 33 systems on the list.

The 33rd edition of the TOP500 list shows that 399 of the world’s top 500 systems, including two in the top 10, now have Intel inside. Systems using Intel® Xeon® quad-core processors feature prominently in the list, holding 340 spots. Using reinvented high-k metal gate transistors, Intel’s previous-generation quad-core 45nm Intel® Xeon® processor 5400 series is used in 263 systems.

Intel-based super computing platforms are playing a pivotal role in a number of research areas, from improving the safety of space exploration to forecasting global climate conditions. More “mainstream” industries, such as financial services and health care, are also using Intel-based systems to achieve faster, more accurate results, to speed the pace of innovation and improve competitive advantage.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Also, whuzzup with AMD's stock price?? It has shed nearly a third of it's value ($4.82 on June 10 to current $3.52) in the last 2 weeks. Could it be related to the astounding Xeon 55xx CPU's mentioned above??? I wonder if gamerk37 has sold his 150K shares yet??

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

That shows about their marketshare as well, 80%. Good to know

 

[fazers_on_stun]

That shows about their marketshare as well, 80%. Good to know

Actually, about half that for server: http://www.dailytech.com/AMD+Gained+Market+Share+in+Q1+2009/article15108.htm

AMD did see declines in its server processor market share. AMD lost 1.2% of the server market, all of which was picked up by Intel bringing it to 89.3% of the server market.

Seeing as how all the big profit is in the server CPU segment, it'll be interesting to watch how Istanbul fares against the new Xeons.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Also, it's interesting to see AMD's hopeful projections of server marketshare from 3 years ago: http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20060822235044.html

AMD Aims at 40% of Server Microprocessor Market by Late 2009.

AMD Wants to Capture Higher Server Processor Market Share

Advanced Micro Devices, the world’s No. 2 maker of x86 central processing units, said at a news conference that it did not see any reasons why AMD could not achieve 40% market share in the server space by late 2009 and 30% of all chips by the same timeframe, according to media reports.

“There’s no reason why AMD can’t achieve 40% [server processor market share],” said commercial business vice president Marty Seyer when unveiling a research and development center in Shanghai, China.

In Q2 2006 AMD Opteron processors have grabbed 25.9% of server market, up from 22.1% in previous quarter, claim numbers released by Mercury Research. Shipments of the Opteron processors for 2-way servers grew 45% quarter-over-quarter, while AMD’s server microprocessor market share in terms of revenues was 33% of the total server market revenue.

Of course, AMD didn't know much about Core2 or anything about Nehalem back in August of 2006...

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Hopefully well enough.
Good read here
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218100594&pgno=1
It seems both the 450mm and EUV may never be a big thing.. If you look at the estimated release time for EUV being used, and Si's terminal lifetime as a semi conductor, itll be interesting, unless of course they can transfer the tech to the next base used

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Hopefully well enough.
Good read here
http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218100594&pgno=1
It seems both the 450mm and EUV may never be a big thing.. If you look at the estimated release time for EUV being used, and Si's terminal lifetime as a semi conductor, itll be interesting, unless of course they can transfer the tech to the next base used

Also from EETimes (http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=5YYMEKJAEGFNGQSNDLOSKH0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=218100243)

Intel pushes 193-nm litho down to 15-nm

MOUNTAIN VEIW, Calif. -- In a possible breakthrough, Intel Corp. claims that it has pushed 193-nm immersion lithography down to 15-nm--at least in the lab.
The disclosure is further evidence that 193-nm immersion -- with some form of a double-patterning technique -- can scale much further than previously thought. It also means that extreme ultraviolet (EUV) lithography could get pushed out--again.

So far, EUV has demonstrated the ability to print images down to 24-nm or so. The industry hopes to insert EUV at the 16-nm node.


Today, Intel is using ''dry'' 193-nm lithography for production at the 45-nm node. For the company's 32-nm process, which will go into production by year's end, the chip giant plans to use its first immersion tools. As reported, it plans to use 193-nm immersion scanners from one vendor: Nikon Corp.

So, EUV may not be necessary for the next 2-3 generations after all.

As for 450mm wafers, there are some advantages to stepping up to that size, and if you have to equip a new fab line at the next node anyway, it may make sense.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

If you read that EE Times article tho, it appears Intel is pushing the tool makers possibly beyond their limits financially, as theyre unable to keep up with the Tick Tock of Intels strategy, as the tool makers R&D costs soar.
That and going the previous statement that below 16nm was too cost prhibitive, looks like somethings got to give.
Its my understanding that having 450mm wafers isnt just getting more chips per wafer, but the tooling also has to adapt to its usage, with that, and going to a new node every 2 years, the tools makers are screaming

 

[fazers_on_stun]

I thought Intel was also investing in some of the tool makers, so it's not like they are bearing the brunt of R&D all by themselves. I'm sure they will be happy to charge whatever they need to make a profit anyway. Should be considerably cheaper than going to a new technology like EUV.

On another note, according to some news reports, looks like AMD's partner country, the UAE, is cracking down on anti-Iran protests at the Abu Dhabi embassy.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31392993/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/page/3/

In Abu Dhabi: no more protests
Iranians holding protests in Abu Dhabi, in the United Arab Emirates, were told to stop protesting, according to a report Thursday in The National, Abu Dhabi's English-language newspaper:

"Iranian protesters were this morning ordered to disperse on the fifth day of demonstrations outside the Iranian consulate ... Protesters were granted permission by the Ministry of Interior on Tuesday to continue demonstrations until 7pm today.

"However, the 70 protesters who congregated outside the consulate this morning were refused the right to stand opposite the consulate building by members of the Dubai police and the CID.

" 'They had their chance (to protest) for the last four days,' said Capt. Ahmad al Mirri, from the national security apparatus of Dubai. 'They have delivered their message to the Iranian government.

" 'They are not allowed to protest anymore,' he added, saying that they had orders to stop any future protests, received from high-level officials."

Maybe the EU should investigate AMD & GF for being anti-democracy!

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

LOL, c,mon, you know who that was dont ya? It was Baron Baba Ali-bin-Matrix, and yes, he IS related heheh

 

[mactronix]

Ok so what do people think of the announced i3, i5, well everything eventually move by Intel ?

When the Flagship i7 Chip isn't in real world terms any better than and in some cases worse than an E8600, do we really need these chips yet? and what does it mean for people with 775 sockets that have upgrade options ? Do they buy the best they can get now and start saving for a new system ? I read some reports saying they are moving over to the 1160 socket and will stop making 775 CPU's ?
Will people swallow the need for new boards etc or will people get the hump and move over to AMD ?
So is it seriously needed inovation or just Intel making an new revenue stream for itself.

Mactronix

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Most people Ive talked with and read, are going I Yii I to the i3/i5/i7 debacle, and saying screw it, Im waiting for sandy bridge, and holding my C2D/Q, they dont even want the next tic , and are waiting for the tock. Delaying i5, and having i5 and i7 so close to perf on DT I believe is hurting Intels sales somewhat.
If youll notice, theres a resentment about i5 for some reason. Intel created the 2 tier, now they have to live with it.
This is Intels answer to the future, early on model, much like the G200 is for nVidia. It brings in HT,turbo and more than quad cores, all of which is vital for the growth of cpus in the future. I like Annands comments about it found here http://www.wepc.com/discussions/view/6612/Two_Important_Trends_in_the_CPU_Industry. He describes pretty much what we have today in i7, and possibly the future. Having several cores go turbo for certain demanding tasks, while also offering several other cores for other apps/chores, or having them powered down. It addresses the single thread and or Ghz issue while also addressing the MC issue.
The one trend I do see in all this, is that the heavy enthusiast who ocees like a banshee may not embrace this all that much, as these chips wont oc nearly as well as older, lessor cored ones. So, unless the enthusiasts embrace a somewhat altered path in ocing satisfaction, theyll be longing for the older, simpler days IMHO

 

[randomizer]

You forgot to include VIA. They will feel so slighted.

They can join with Rambus and the EU and sue me.

 

[theholylancer]

I'm here to make a speculation / comparison from history, I've posted this in another forum too, but since this place seems to be just as nice place to post my mind on the issue:

we've all seem this set of branding/ levels of performance before, not with intel, but with amd

when amd was hammering (lol) intel with their a64 stuff, the same bull crap occurred,

i3 = older socket from previous gen = intel LGA 775 = socket 754 of amd (prev gen to the s939 )

i5 = mainstream socket of cur gen = intel LGA 1156 = socket 939 of amd (the mainstream vennies, pin incompatible with s940)

i7 = high end socket of cur gen = intel LGA 1366 = socekt 940 of amd (brought out as the hammers, their high end stuff)

when you have the clear lead over the competition, splitting up the market like this is a great way to milk them

look at how intel reacted when they were on the down side, by not introducing new sockets en masse (the old socket 478 was still used) until start of core 2s with LGA775s, because the P-D (let me remind you that the PDs were the same socket of P4s with LGA775, similar to how PhIIs are the same to the Ph, but thankfully PhII don't suck as much as the PDs since PhII actually improved things rather than tacked two old cores together and call them native dual core) and P4s blew chunks, same thing with amd now, they are keeping pin compatibility with AM2+/AM3 and all that in order to make drop in replacement and "milk" (more like survive) the market for existing customer to upgrade or build ultra cheap machines from prev gen mobos and parts.

to all those that wants cheap and performance, the i5 will have to do, which shouldn't be all that bad considering that if they got 4 cores and the same arch as i7s except the tri channel deal, then they should clock to 4 Ghz as well, unless they some how gimp them so they'd go from say 1.4 ghz lowest end i5 part to only 2.5 ghz OC because of some form of manufacturing cost saving design, or even artificial ones like lack of divider with slower ram speed, this can happen if they claimed advances in memory let them use DDR3-1600 as standard and use a low butt multi and lock the memory divider in a way so you can't use a larger one, example, 200 bck * 8 multi with locked divider of 8 between the ram and bck, and you can only raise that divider to say 10, which allows the ram to still run at 1600 (200 speed) and the bck can only go up to approx 220 and that will yield a 2.2 ghz oc....

be prepared for them to gimp the market with by forcing high dram clocks, and low multipliers, with a method to lock the base clock to a level either by locking the multi so ram has to run faster (expensive to do for now, if you look at DDR3-2000 parts vs 1600 or 800 parts), or by other ways of limiting the base clock with an abysmal multi of below 10 or 15 max, then even if the cores themselves can do 200*21 (4.2 Ghz), you cant get them because parts of the system won't do what is needed.


this is how I see it coming from the amd dominance to c2d to i7 era, if you knew how to OC a A64 during the bsish (they did had a kick butt cpu, like the i7 of today) era of 3 sockets, then you'd know what i'm trying to say...

as a side note, i kinda see the X2 BE that can be unlocked to be sorta like the Pentium 4 emergency edition (extreme edition), but i can't make a direct claim since the X2 BE isn't marketed as a unlocking godness that brings quad core for cheap, unlike the emergency edition that was touted as the one that would have brought down hammer (FX-51)

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

For everyone, AMD folks and haters heheh
http://blogs.knoxnews.com/knx/munger/2009/06/jaguar_to_be_worlds_fastest_co.html

 

[fazers_on_stun]

For everyone, AMD folks and haters heheh
http://blogs.knoxnews.com/knx/munger/2009/06/jaguar_to_be_worlds_fastest_co.html

I guess upgrading supercomputers with Istanbuls is a "shovel-ready" project

I thought one of the stumble-loss (stimulus) parameters was "buy American" - that would disqualify Arab Micro Devices

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Or possibly ChIntel for the others?. Nice to see that Istanbul beats Nehalem in super computer uses , like linpack, and all these super computers can easily be upgraded without a whole new creation, dispelling a few myths about people saying businesses dont just drop in new cores, and its much cheaper to do so, and this time at least, also with more power over the competitions completely wholely new , needed platform. So sorry ChIntel, you lose

 

[srynznfyra]

I made my first two rigs with AMD, purely because the total cost of ownership for an AMD system is less than that of an equivalent Intel system. Later this year I'm gonna buy a new AMD quad core Phenom II 940.

Intel is better in the high end segment, but it is priced far higher, especially $$$/GFlops. And Intel's graphics chips are a joke, whereas AMD competes well in the gaming GPU market. Although I prefer to use nVidia due to my love of Linux and Crysis being optimized for Nvidia. But this thread is about AMD and Intel, and I prefer AMD for my needs.

Just my thoughts.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

AMD, however you want to spell it, is building a new fab in the US, not China, or elsewheres. Thats good to see, isnt it? IF you live in the states that is