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AMD and Intel General Discussion (not for getting help)

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a b à CPUs
June 22, 2009 12:31:46 AM

What is this thread for?

General discussion about anything related to AMD and Intel. Rather than sending help threads into never-ending off-topic discussion you can do that here. It will hopefully stop discussion topics getting buried by innumerable help threads by keeping it all in one place. This is currently a pilot thread and may not exist indefinitely, it depends entirely on whether it successfully alleviates the off-topic discussion problem or not.

What CAN you post here?

Anything at all related to the two companies. Financial, legal, product-related, etc. Debates are fine and encouraged as long as they stay civil. Speculation is also fine, but keep baseless opinion to a minimum. An argument with evidence speaks volumes. An argument without evidence just increases volume.

What CAN'T you post here?

Requests for help on builds or problem-solving. Such posts will be ignored and deleted promptly. That is what the rest of the forum is for.

Important notes:

  • While debates are encouraged, flame wars are not. Excessive trolling and/or flame-baiting will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.
  • Debate the opinion, not the person. Personal attacks will NOT be tolerated. Offenders may find themselves on a long vacation.
  • Read the ToS.
    June 22, 2009 1:41:11 AM

    Great idea!! Didnt see the sticky til now. Hope this works
    June 22, 2009 1:44:36 AM

    Question, does this include speculation on new releases as well, with links?
    Related resources
    a b à CPUs
    June 22, 2009 1:52:35 AM

    Absolutely. Just try to keep pure and unfounded opinion to a minimum, because arguments using opinions with zero evidence never end well. :) 
    a b à CPUs
    June 22, 2009 1:11:10 PM

    Well if all the flaming happens in one thread it's alot easier to deal with.
    June 22, 2009 7:55:04 PM

    You forgot to include VIA. They will feel so slighted.
    a b à CPUs
    June 23, 2009 4:24:54 PM

    OK, let the games begin! :D 

    From http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/article.aspx?Fe...: (Astutely Astoundingly Astonishing news!!!)

    Quote:
    Intel Inside Nearly Eighty Percent of the World’s Fastest Supercomputers

    More supercomputers than ever are using Intel Corporation processors, according to the latest TOP500 list. The high performance computing (HPC) community is especially enthusiastic about the Intel® Xeon® 5500 processor series. Launched only 3 months ago these chips are already driving the research and analytical capabilities of 33 systems on the list.

    The 33rd edition of the TOP500 list shows that 399 of the world’s top 500 systems, including two in the top 10, now have Intel inside. Systems using Intel® Xeon® quad-core processors feature prominently in the list, holding 340 spots. Using reinvented high-k metal gate transistors, Intel’s previous-generation quad-core 45nm Intel® Xeon® processor 5400 series is used in 263 systems.

    Intel-based super computing platforms are playing a pivotal role in a number of research areas, from improving the safety of space exploration to forecasting global climate conditions. More “mainstream” industries, such as financial services and health care, are also using Intel-based systems to achieve faster, more accurate results, to speed the pace of innovation and improve competitive advantage.
    a b à CPUs
    June 23, 2009 4:29:39 PM

    Also, whuzzup with AMD's stock price?? It has shed nearly a third of it's value ($4.82 on June 10 to current $3.52) in the last 2 weeks. Could it be related to the astounding Xeon 55xx CPU's mentioned above??? I wonder if gamerk37 has sold his 150K shares yet??
    June 23, 2009 4:32:04 PM

    That shows about their marketshare as well, 80%. Good to know
    a b à CPUs
    June 23, 2009 4:48:07 PM

    JAYDEEJOHN said:
    That shows about their marketshare as well, 80%. Good to know


    Actually, about half that for server: http://www.dailytech.com/AMD+Gained+Market+Share+in+Q1+...

    Quote:
    AMD did see declines in its server processor market share. AMD lost 1.2% of the server market, all of which was picked up by Intel bringing it to 89.3% of the server market.


    Seeing as how all the big profit is in the server CPU segment, it'll be interesting to watch how Istanbul fares against the new Xeons.
    a b à CPUs
    June 23, 2009 4:53:27 PM

    Also, it's interesting to see AMD's hopeful projections of server marketshare from 3 years ago: http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20060822235044...

    Quote:
    AMD Aims at 40% of Server Microprocessor Market by Late 2009.

    AMD Wants to Capture Higher Server Processor Market Share


    Quote:
    Advanced Micro Devices, the world’s No. 2 maker of x86 central processing units, said at a news conference that it did not see any reasons why AMD could not achieve 40% market share in the server space by late 2009 and 30% of all chips by the same timeframe, according to media reports.

    “There’s no reason why AMD can’t achieve 40% [server processor market share],” said commercial business vice president Marty Seyer when unveiling a research and development center in Shanghai, China.

    In Q2 2006 AMD Opteron processors have grabbed 25.9% of server market, up from 22.1% in previous quarter, claim numbers released by Mercury Research. Shipments of the Opteron processors for 2-way servers grew 45% quarter-over-quarter, while AMD’s server microprocessor market share in terms of revenues was 33% of the total server market revenue.



    Of course, AMD didn't know much about Core2 or anything about Nehalem back in August of 2006...
    June 23, 2009 4:55:06 PM

    Hopefully well enough.
    Good read here
    http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=...
    It seems both the 450mm and EUV may never be a big thing.. If you look at the estimated release time for EUV being used, and Si's terminal lifetime as a semi conductor, itll be interesting, unless of course they can transfer the tech to the next base used
    a b à CPUs
    June 23, 2009 5:20:04 PM

    JAYDEEJOHN said:
    Hopefully well enough.
    Good read here
    http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=...
    It seems both the 450mm and EUV may never be a big thing.. If you look at the estimated release time for EUV being used, and Si's terminal lifetime as a semi conductor, itll be interesting, unless of course they can transfer the tech to the next base used


    Also from EETimes (http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=5YYMEKJAEGFNGQSNDLOSKH0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=218100243)

    Quote:
    Intel pushes 193-nm litho down to 15-nm

    MOUNTAIN VEIW, Calif. -- In a possible breakthrough, Intel Corp. claims that it has pushed 193-nm immersion lithography down to 15-nm--at least in the lab.
    The disclosure is further evidence that 193-nm immersion -- with some form of a double-patterning technique -- can scale much further than previously thought. It also means that extreme ultraviolet (EUV) lithography could get pushed out--again.

    So far, EUV has demonstrated the ability to print images down to 24-nm or so. The industry hopes to insert EUV at the 16-nm node.


    Today, Intel is using ''dry'' 193-nm lithography for production at the 45-nm node. For the company's 32-nm process, which will go into production by year's end, the chip giant plans to use its first immersion tools. As reported, it plans to use 193-nm immersion scanners from one vendor: Nikon Corp.


    So, EUV may not be necessary for the next 2-3 generations after all.

    As for 450mm wafers, there are some advantages to stepping up to that size, and if you have to equip a new fab line at the next node anyway, it may make sense.
    June 23, 2009 5:46:06 PM

    If you read that EE Times article tho, it appears Intel is pushing the tool makers possibly beyond their limits financially, as theyre unable to keep up with the Tick Tock of Intels strategy, as the tool makers R&D costs soar.
    That and going the previous statement that below 16nm was too cost prhibitive, looks like somethings got to give.
    Its my understanding that having 450mm wafers isnt just getting more chips per wafer, but the tooling also has to adapt to its usage, with that, and going to a new node every 2 years, the tools makers are screaming
    a b à CPUs
    June 23, 2009 7:18:30 PM

    I thought Intel was also investing in some of the tool makers, so it's not like they are bearing the brunt of R&D all by themselves. I'm sure they will be happy to charge whatever they need to make a profit anyway. Should be considerably cheaper than going to a new technology like EUV.

    On another note, according to some news reports, looks like AMD's partner country, the UAE, is cracking down on anti-Iran protests at the Abu Dhabi embassy.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31392993/ns/technology_and_...

    Quote:
    In Abu Dhabi: no more protests
    Iranians holding protests in Abu Dhabi, in the United Arab Emirates, were told to stop protesting, according to a report Thursday in The National, Abu Dhabi's English-language newspaper:

    "Iranian protesters were this morning ordered to disperse on the fifth day of demonstrations outside the Iranian consulate ... Protesters were granted permission by the Ministry of Interior on Tuesday to continue demonstrations until 7pm today.

    "However, the 70 protesters who congregated outside the consulate this morning were refused the right to stand opposite the consulate building by members of the Dubai police and the CID.

    " 'They had their chance (to protest) for the last four days,' said Capt. Ahmad al Mirri, from the national security apparatus of Dubai. 'They have delivered their message to the Iranian government.

    " 'They are not allowed to protest anymore,' he added, saying that they had orders to stop any future protests, received from high-level officials."



    Maybe the EU should investigate AMD & GF for being anti-democracy! :D 
    June 24, 2009 12:14:56 AM

    LOL, c,mon, you know who that was dont ya? It was Baron Baba Ali-bin-Matrix, and yes, he IS related heheh
    a b à CPUs
    June 24, 2009 12:21:25 PM

    Ok so what do people think of the announced i3, i5, well everything eventually move by Intel ?

    When the Flagship i7 Chip isn't in real world terms any better than and in some cases worse than an E8600, do we really need these chips yet? and what does it mean for people with 775 sockets that have upgrade options ? Do they buy the best they can get now and start saving for a new system ? I read some reports saying they are moving over to the 1160 socket and will stop making 775 CPU's ?
    Will people swallow the need for new boards etc or will people get the hump and move over to AMD ?
    So is it seriously needed inovation or just Intel making an new revenue stream for itself.

    Mactronix
    June 24, 2009 1:28:27 PM

    Most people Ive talked with and read, are going I Yii I to the i3/i5/i7 debacle, and saying screw it, Im waiting for sandy bridge, and holding my C2D/Q, they dont even want the next tic , and are waiting for the tock. Delaying i5, and having i5 and i7 so close to perf on DT I believe is hurting Intels sales somewhat.
    If youll notice, theres a resentment about i5 for some reason. Intel created the 2 tier, now they have to live with it.
    This is Intels answer to the future, early on model, much like the G200 is for nVidia. It brings in HT,turbo and more than quad cores, all of which is vital for the growth of cpus in the future. I like Annands comments about it found here http://www.wepc.com/discussions/view/6612/Two_Important.... He describes pretty much what we have today in i7, and possibly the future. Having several cores go turbo for certain demanding tasks, while also offering several other cores for other apps/chores, or having them powered down. It addresses the single thread and or Ghz issue while also addressing the MC issue.
    The one trend I do see in all this, is that the heavy enthusiast who ocees like a banshee may not embrace this all that much, as these chips wont oc nearly as well as older, lessor cored ones. So, unless the enthusiasts embrace a somewhat altered path in ocing satisfaction, theyll be longing for the older, simpler days IMHO
    a b à CPUs
    June 25, 2009 1:12:55 AM

    roofus said:
    You forgot to include VIA. They will feel so slighted.

    They can join with Rambus and the EU and sue me.
    a b à CPUs
    June 30, 2009 3:13:24 PM

    I'm here to make a speculation / comparison from history, I've posted this in another forum too, but since this place seems to be just as nice place to post my mind on the issue:

    we've all seem this set of branding/ levels of performance before, not with intel, but with amd

    when amd was hammering (lol) intel with their a64 stuff, the same bull crap occurred,

    i3 = older socket from previous gen = intel LGA 775 = socket 754 of amd (prev gen to the s939 )

    i5 = mainstream socket of cur gen = intel LGA 1156 = socket 939 of amd (the mainstream vennies, pin incompatible with s940)

    i7 = high end socket of cur gen = intel LGA 1366 = socekt 940 of amd (brought out as the hammers, their high end stuff)

    when you have the clear lead over the competition, splitting up the market like this is a great way to milk them

    look at how intel reacted when they were on the down side, by not introducing new sockets en masse (the old socket 478 was still used) until start of core 2s with LGA775s, because the P-D (let me remind you that the PDs were the same socket of P4s with LGA775, similar to how PhIIs are the same to the Ph, but thankfully PhII don't suck as much as the PDs since PhII actually improved things rather than tacked two old cores together and call them native dual core) and P4s blew chunks, same thing with amd now, they are keeping pin compatibility with AM2+/AM3 and all that in order to make drop in replacement and "milk" (more like survive) the market for existing customer to upgrade or build ultra cheap machines from prev gen mobos and parts.

    to all those that wants cheap and performance, the i5 will have to do, which shouldn't be all that bad considering that if they got 4 cores and the same arch as i7s except the tri channel deal, then they should clock to 4 Ghz as well, unless they some how gimp them so they'd go from say 1.4 ghz lowest end i5 part to only 2.5 ghz OC because of some form of manufacturing cost saving design, or even artificial ones like lack of divider with slower ram speed, this can happen if they claimed advances in memory let them use DDR3-1600 as standard and use a low butt multi and lock the memory divider in a way so you can't use a larger one, example, 200 bck * 8 multi with locked divider of 8 between the ram and bck, and you can only raise that divider to say 10, which allows the ram to still run at 1600 (200 speed) and the bck can only go up to approx 220 and that will yield a 2.2 ghz oc....

    be prepared for them to gimp the market with by forcing high dram clocks, and low multipliers, with a method to lock the base clock to a level either by locking the multi so ram has to run faster (expensive to do for now, if you look at DDR3-2000 parts vs 1600 or 800 parts), or by other ways of limiting the base clock with an abysmal multi of below 10 or 15 max, then even if the cores themselves can do 200*21 (4.2 Ghz), you cant get them because parts of the system won't do what is needed.


    this is how I see it coming from the amd dominance to c2d to i7 era, if you knew how to OC a A64 during the bsish (they did had a kick butt cpu, like the i7 of today) era of 3 sockets, then you'd know what i'm trying to say...

    as a side note, i kinda see the X2 BE that can be unlocked to be sorta like the Pentium 4 emergency edition (extreme edition), but i can't make a direct claim since the X2 BE isn't marketed as a unlocking godness that brings quad core for cheap, unlike the emergency edition that was touted as the one that would have brought down hammer (FX-51)
    a b à CPUs
    July 3, 2009 12:28:59 PM

    JAYDEEJOHN said:
    For everyone, AMD folks and haters heheh
    http://blogs.knoxnews.com/knx/munger/2009/06/jaguar_to_...


    I guess upgrading supercomputers with Istanbuls is a "shovel-ready" project :D 

    I thought one of the stumble-loss (stimulus) parameters was "buy American" - that would disqualify Arab Micro Devices :sol: 
    July 3, 2009 2:59:06 PM

    Or possibly ChIntel for the others?. Nice to see that Istanbul beats Nehalem in super computer uses , like linpack, and all these super computers can easily be upgraded without a whole new creation, dispelling a few myths about people saying businesses dont just drop in new cores, and its much cheaper to do so, and this time at least, also with more power over the competitions completely wholely new , needed platform. So sorry ChIntel, you lose
    July 3, 2009 10:22:24 PM

    I made my first two rigs with AMD, purely because the total cost of ownership for an AMD system is less than that of an equivalent Intel system. Later this year I'm gonna buy a new AMD quad core Phenom II 940.

    Intel is better in the high end segment, but it is priced far higher, especially $$$/GFlops. And Intel's graphics chips are a joke, whereas AMD competes well in the gaming GPU market. Although I prefer to use nVidia due to my love of Linux and Crysis being optimized for Nvidia. But this thread is about AMD and Intel, and I prefer AMD for my needs.

    Just my thoughts.
    July 3, 2009 10:33:12 PM

    AMD, however you want to spell it, is building a new fab in the US, not China, or elsewheres. Thats good to see, isnt it? IF you live in the states that is
    July 4, 2009 7:56:51 PM

    we ordered 70 more Chintel stations at work Friday and 2 more Chintel servers. i speculated we would end up with at least 1 AMD powered server this time but it didnt materialize.
    a b à CPUs
    July 5, 2009 4:23:49 PM

    JAYDEEJOHN said:
    Or possibly ChIntel for the others?. Nice to see that Istanbul beats Nehalem in super computer uses , like linpack, and all these super computers can easily be upgraded without a whole new creation, dispelling a few myths about people saying businesses dont just drop in new cores, and its much cheaper to do so, and this time at least, also with more power over the competitions completely wholely new , needed platform. So sorry ChIntel, you lose


    Hmm, where does it say in the article that "Istanbul beats Nehalem in super computer uses"?? All the reviews I've read show Nehalem still comfortably ahead of Istanbul for HPC in all the other benchies.

    Also, I doubt anybody would classify the NSF or Oakridge labs as a "business" - they are on the public dole - er, taxpayer funded :D . And I would not be surprised if AMD just gave them the Istanbuls as a publicity stunt plus tax writeoff, so in these 2 cases, yes much cheaper than Intel :whistle: 
    a b à CPUs
    July 5, 2009 4:30:01 PM

    JAYDEEJOHN said:
    AMD, however you want to spell it, is building a new fab in the US, not China, or elsewheres. Thats good to see, isnt it? IF you live in the states that is


    I know of some NY taxpayers who are quite upset about the $1.4B they have to shell out to subsidize ATIC, which is 50% owned by the UAE, for a paltry 1400 jobs or so. That comes out to an easy million dollars per job... So Lex Luthor Forest is not exactly a shining light for the taxpayers, also because of all the environmental concerns. :lol: 
    July 5, 2009 5:27:47 PM

    Glad you included "all the other" benches, especially since those "other" benches mean nothing, as the super computers use LINPACK, per cluster, and Istanbul wins, and thus, the fastest super computers.
    OK, 1400 x 50000 = 70,000,000, and this is very very conservative. Individual tax is 6.85%, so 4.8 million a year, just on the employees. Now, sales tax, we'll go 8%, so say, roughly 3 million a year. So, thats close to 8 million a year returned by just the employees. New jobs creation capital usually turn over 8 times before leaving the state per se, so the available 62 million dollars in sales per year come to 400+ million in total turnover for money spent, all of which again, is taxable, and proftitable too. These numbers add up fast, and a 1 time investment, within a small period of time will be caught up and surpassed, and be a plus, in less than 10 years. Remember, all those GF employees add to the local economy, and will pay others salaries as well, its been done by every state since I can remember, and is always a plus for the state, usually in short order, otherwise, whatd be the point? Bragging rights?
    If they continued to pour money into it, then theyd never catch up, and actually lose money on it, and Ive seen a few situations where some states have done this very thing, to keep their constituants happy, but that wont happen here
    July 5, 2009 6:46:14 PM

    Depends on how many workers that come from overseas with work permits as to how much it will truely benefit the area. A place that I wrorked for for a few years that shall remain nameless had a large number of middle management, engineers and upper management from overseas. One conversation with a product engineer clued me in how that works for them. They made 75USD a month in their home country. They make roughly the same here but get a free hotel room, free eats and small groups shared rental cars. They loved it because the quality of life was so much better even though they would spend 12-16 hours a day at work, 6 days a week and maybe a half day on the 7th day. A scenario like that plays out, then there wont be this huge influx of cash for the local area.
    a b à CPUs
    July 7, 2009 5:57:43 AM

    fazers_on_stun said:
    I know of some NY taxpayers who are quite upset about the $1.4B they have to shell out to subsidize ATIC, which is 50% owned by the UAE, for a paltry 1400 jobs or so. That comes out to an easy million dollars per job... So Lex Luthor Forest is not exactly a shining light for the taxpayers, also because of all the environmental concerns. :lol: 


    Might as well invest in social welfare :lol: 
    a b à CPUs
    July 8, 2009 12:39:08 AM

    JAYDEEJOHN said:
    Glad you included "all the other" benches, especially since those "other" benches mean nothing, as the super computers use LINPACK, per cluster, and Istanbul wins, and thus, the fastest super computers.
    OK, 1400 x 50000 = 70,000,000, and this is very very conservative. Individual tax is 6.85%, so 4.8 million a year, just on the employees. Now, sales tax, we'll go 8%, so say, roughly 3 million a year. So, thats close to 8 million a year returned by just the employees. New jobs creation capital usually turn over 8 times before leaving the state per se, so the available 62 million dollars in sales per year come to 400+ million in total turnover for money spent, all of which again, is taxable, and proftitable too. These numbers add up fast, and a 1 time investment, within a small period of time will be caught up and surpassed, and be a plus, in less than 10 years. Remember, all those GF employees add to the local economy, and will pay others salaries as well, its been done by every state since I can remember, and is always a plus for the state, usually in short order, otherwise, whatd be the point? Bragging rights?
    If they continued to pour money into it, then theyd never catch up, and actually lose money on it, and Ive seen a few situations where some states have done this very thing, to keep their constituants happy, but that wont happen here


    Not to worry - Nehalem EX will be out in a few short months, and then the 6-core 32nm Westmeres early next year. Yeah I know - Mangy Curs are coming but they'll likely prove to be real "dogs" of a CPU :D .

    As for the economic predictions for Luther Forest, predictions I've seen are considerably less than $400M per year - typically finished wafers are sent elsewhere - usually overseas where labor is cheaper - for dicing, bonding, etc into finished CPUs. I believe the 1400 jobs figure included the anxillary job creation, not just the fab jobs. I'll see if I can find the link. Anyway, even assuming your $400M figure, actual tax revenue to the state would probably only amount to $40M or so, considering the tax breaks handed out. At that rate, it would take 350 years to recover the $1.4B taxpayer contribution, money that would probably be better spent on infrastructure since nearly all of that would stay in the state.
    a b à CPUs
    July 8, 2009 12:43:20 AM

    amdfangirl said:
    Might as well invest in social welfare :lol: 


    LOL. What strikes me as peculiar about the whole deal is why NY State and the UAE would invest all this $$ in a down market with lots of excess fab capacity - unless the world economy picks up quickly, this will be like investing in refrigerators in the Antartic...
    July 8, 2009 3:08:15 AM

    That money is the tax breaks, which will be paid down over time. No state just hands out money to businesses. They may make it more conducive to do business in their state, they offer many ways/types of incentives, but trust me, its never charity, certainly not the kind people think. Its used mainly for polittcal reasons, pro or con, but, in the end, the state wins either way
    July 8, 2009 4:19:10 AM

    I remember a conversation about, Intel, the economy, and how its going to hurt AMD worse. At the time, Id said, Intel, with all its fabs, and as they try to go to 450mm wafers, and having smaller nodes, meaning more per wafer, and keeping them all fed, plus trends, like ARM hurting their Atom business, thus pulling from the bottom, DT slowly dying, mobile their great hope, but it too is being challenged, and their pricing/profit margines and expectations, would take a bigger hit in the overall picture, as they focus at the very top, while their competition (AMD) focuses on the middle, and other competition (ARM) focuses on the low/ultra mobile end, it will have a greater negative effect on Intel.
    "Gosh, no. But ARM does play a role in this ASP erosion via netbooks, although certainly not the only role. And this isn't only about ARM stealing volume, but also Intel being unexpectedly aggressive pricing-wise with Pineview on one hand, and allowing further penetration of Moorestown into netbooks on the other. The indirect effect of this, combined with a fearful consumer sentiment, will be polarization hurting mid-range notebooks where the most of the BoM goes to Intel right now.

    There really are many different small factors I think are relevant to this prediction both in the short-term and the mid-term, don't focus too much on the above. But the most important single factor (I don't think it's quite as big as all the others combined though) is definitely the macroeconomy, especially its micro-level consequences. For example, I'd expect corporate PC volumes *and* ASPs to go down even deeper than anyone seems to be forecasting right now. This also hurts Intel indirectly because that's where their percentage of the desktop BoM is the highest.

    In addition to ASP reductions, I expect this to hurt wafer starts - and since Intel has its own fabs and seems very aggressive on 32nm, that's just screaming looming overcapacity. Which will hurt margins too, and eventually ASPs through basic supply-and-demand of the overall CPU market. AMD would suffer from the latter, although obviously not much from the former since it's GF that takes the hit for overcapacity now - so I wouldn't be more worried about them than usual."
    http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=54539&page=2

    It appears Im not the only one thinking this way, and was somewhat surprised to see, almost verbatim what Id previously written. All Im saying here is, if I thought about this, and others are too, and see this as a possibility down the road, we need to watch the trends/directions and the economy, and as importantly, the attitude shifts afterwards, if there are any. Maybe the "best" wont be as glamorized as it is now, and we all see that coming, as the top dogs in business arent respected generally, but despised.
    I believe this will transgress further into purchasing/ownership. We already have a president and a mindset that says less is more, more is greed only, and better is just a term, where facts are thrown out the window, caught up in the winds created by global warming itself

    PS Just remember this, I dont care which cpu company is the best etc, I only care for good cpus. I dont wish for the worst for any company, Intel included. Just some observations is all, and a few counterstrokes of course heheh
    a b à CPUs
    July 8, 2009 4:35:03 PM

    JAYDEEJOHN said:
    That money is the tax breaks, which will be paid down over time. No state just hands out money to businesses. They may make it more conducive to do business in their state, they offer many ways/types of incentives, but trust me, its never charity, certainly not the kind people think. Its used mainly for polittcal reasons, pro or con, but, in the end, the state wins either way


    Of course, if NY was actually a business they would have to be concerned with ROI. I think the payback period will be decades, not years, so Luther Forest is probably more of an ego boost than anything else.

    OTOH, AMD doesn't seem too concerned about ROI either :D ...
    a b à CPUs
    July 8, 2009 5:20:25 PM

    JAYDEEJOHN said:
    I remember a conversation about, Intel, the economy, and how its going to hurt AMD worse. At the time, Id said, Intel, with all its fabs, and as they try to go to 450mm wafers, and having smaller nodes, meaning more per wafer, and keeping them all fed, plus trends, like ARM hurting their Atom business, thus pulling from the bottom, DT slowly dying, mobile their great hope, but it too is being challenged, and their pricing/profit margines and expectations, would take a bigger hit in the overall picture, as they focus at the very top, while their competition (AMD) focuses on the middle, and other competition (ARM) focuses on the low/ultra mobile end, it will have a greater negative effect on Intel.


    IIRC Intel reports out the 2nd quarter next week, and AMD the week following. That should give us a good idea on how they are respectively faring in this down economy.

    Quote:
    In addition to ASP reductions, I expect this to hurt wafer starts - and since Intel has its own fabs and seems very aggressive on 32nm, that's just screaming looming overcapacity.


    ASPs are only half the equation - the other half being actual cost to manufacture the products. And since Intel owns it own fabs, then there's no profit margin on fabbing to account for, unlike GF and AMD. As I have said all along, the UAE is going to want to see a return on their billions invested, and so the cost to AMD will include a profit margin on the fabbing of their CPUs. They may be currently exchanging debt for shares but you know that cannot go on forever. This in turn will reduce AMD's margins if they have to maintain or reduce their ASPs in order to retain or increase marketshare, as AMD has demonstrated they are willing to do in the past.

    Intel has shuttered outdated fabs & facilities in the last year, so I wouldn't worry about them having "screaming looming overcapacity" :D . With GF going to what - 3 fabs in the next few years, they're the ones likely to suffer from overcapacity and having to beat the bushes for customers. AFAIK, Intel is the only customer for its own fabs. So either GF steals most of TSMC's and the other foundry's business, or else AMD jumps to 80% marketshare and Intel drops to 20%. How likely is either one of those??

    July 8, 2009 5:45:38 PM

    I see flexability in GF, as they could make ARM chips along side of AMD, or nVidia as well. Not so with Intel. What will be interesting will be fusion, if its SoC, or simply on-die. If On die, then again, nothing shipping out, unlike Intel to TSMC, all done once again at GF.
    This isnt now, and these numbers/trends wont show up for awhile, but by next years time, it will be showing up.
    I posted a lil about the multi core issues we will be facing, and how the talk has shifted strangely from multi core to now each thread will/may/might have turbo. As we enter into the 6 core on up, which is obviously better suited towards Intels whole setup, theres going to have to be a return user side, and quickly, and since gpgpu is about to enter the fray, and that will be seen as a major contributer, may even be seen as the multi core rival, and thus play into the hands of lessor processes, while ARM will continue to invade mobile, and a different economy, with different attitudes, we have to watch it, not now, this second, as trends do take time
    July 8, 2009 7:41:21 PM

    solid point in the flexibility there. dont rule out GF producing Nvidia chips in the future.
    July 12, 2009 9:01:19 AM

    Have you guys read the article on Core i5 yet? Opinions?
    a b à CPUs
    July 13, 2009 8:01:27 PM

    Xenonvector927 said:
    Have you guys read the article on Core i5 yet? Opinions?



    where is the said article?
    July 13, 2009 10:55:00 PM

    Maybe the mobo one? Where they didnt give any benches?
    a b à CPUs
    July 15, 2009 12:32:05 PM

    THIS just in :D  :

    Quote:
    Despite Repeated Allegations that "Intel Just Doesn't Get It" by Tom's resident JDJ, Intel trumps forecasts, bodes well for PC sector

    SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Intel Corp's quarterly results and outlook blew past Wall Street forecasts on better-than-expected consumer demand for PCs, especially in Asia, setting an auspicious tone for the technology sector.

    Shares of Intel, the world's largest chipmaker, jumped 8 percent on the report, driving Standard & Poor's 500 stock index futures sharply higher and bolstering technology shares such as arch rival Advanced Micro Devices Inc .

    Intel projected third-quarter revenue at $8.1 billion to $8.9 billion, compared with analysts' average forecast of $7.8 billion, according to Reuters Estimates.

    CFO Stacy Smith said fourth-quarter gross margins could scale the high end of a "normal" range -- which Intel defines as 50 to 60 percent -- due partly to declining production costs for new generations of chips and other factors.

    Intel's strong showing came despite what it described as weak demand from the corporations that traditionally are big buyers of computer equipment, and comments by Intel executives that Microsoft's forthcoming Windows 7 operating system is unlikely to revive corporate spending this year.

    In other news, an enormous pair of pants was heard flapping thunderously over Sunnyvale, CA as startled onlookers gazed upwards...
    a b à CPUs
    July 15, 2009 12:40:35 PM

    What's interesting in the above story is the fact that Intel beat the forecast on the basis of consumer sales, not corporate which was flat. So it would seem the sour economy wasn't so bad in the 2nd quarter after all. This should float AMD's boat as well, given their improved product lineup.
    July 15, 2009 12:43:59 PM

    This also just in. As was quoted earlier, ChIntel is getting its money from China, and is investing it there, not a new fab in the US
    ""We should be careful not to read too much into it," said Edward Snyder, an analyst at Charter Equity Research, of Intel's strong quarter. "I expect a lot of it to dissipate next quarter."

    At the beginning of the year, Intel cut back production as it moved to deal with a glut of inventory and a deep recession that was crimping spending. Now, the world's largest chipmaker has sold off that excess and begun to ramp up chip production, a dynamic that fueled its better-than- expected revenue.

    Intel's second-quarter performance also benefited from booming sales in Asia. Some analysts say that suggests Intel benefited as Chinese consumers spent money the government used to stimulate the economy."

    http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200...

    So, it appears ChIntels fortune is on the backs of government money, Chinese no less

    a b à CPUs
    July 15, 2009 1:18:06 PM

    Not Intel's fault if our governments care less about high tech consumer high tech than death killing high tech... I can say that if all this hard ware companies were to be bankrupt today, there won't be any bailout money for them because no one is on the board of directors in Washington/Ottawa for bailouts unlike all of them old school car manufactures.
    July 15, 2009 1:31:30 PM

    I dunno. Without Intel/AMD et al, alot of that government hardware wouldnt be working, tho, it seems they dont know how , or how much it costs either, since Obama and Co. think FireFox is too expensive heheh
    a b à CPUs
    July 15, 2009 1:39:40 PM

    JAYDEEJOHN said:
    This also just in. As was quoted earlier, ChIntel is getting its money from China, and is investing it there, not a new fab in the US
    ""We should be careful not to read too much into it," said Edward Snyder, an analyst at Charter Equity Research, of Intel's strong quarter. "I expect a lot of it to dissipate next quarter."

    At the beginning of the year, Intel cut back production as it moved to deal with a glut of inventory and a deep recession that was crimping spending. Now, the world's largest chipmaker has sold off that excess and begun to ramp up chip production, a dynamic that fueled its better-than- expected revenue.

    Intel's second-quarter performance also benefited from booming sales in Asia. Some analysts say that suggests Intel benefited as Chinese consumers spent money the government used to stimulate the economy."

    http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200...

    So, it appears ChIntels fortune is on the backs of government money, Chinese no less


    So, let's count the # of US fabs:

    Quote:
    (From Intel.com) How many factories do you have worldwide, where are they located and what percentage of your workforce do they employ?
    Intel has 15 wafer fabs in production worldwide at nine locations. Fab production sites within the United States are located in Chandler, Ariz.; Santa Clara, Calif.; Colorado Springs, Colo.; Hudson, Mass.; Rio Rancho, N.M.; and Hillsboro, Ore.; and outside the United States in Leixlip, Ireland; Jerusalem, Israel; and Kiryal Gat, Israel. Two new fabs are under construction at existing sites in Arizona and Israel.

    The company has six assembly and test sites worldwide and is building a seventh, all of them outside the U.S. Assembly and test sites outside the United States are located in Shanghai, China; Chengdu, China; San Jose, Costa Rica; Kulim, Malaysia; Penang, Malaysia; and Cavite, Philippines. An assembly and testing site in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam, is under construction. There is one testing facility and one assembly development facility inside the U.S.


    Looks like Intel = 6, AMD = 0 as of right now :D 

    I'm fairly certain that if some state were to offer Intel $1.4B of hard-earned taxpayer money, they would consider building a new fab there ...
    July 15, 2009 1:48:37 PM

    They diont need it, didnt you read my link, theyve already got their subsidy
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