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4870X2 is not ready and ATi deceived us.

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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April 23, 2009 4:31:51 PM

Hello.. today I replaced my 1060$ two 4870X2 cards with new ones.

But the problem is the same..

I did a clean installation of windows vista x64 ultimate and install the latest drivers of the GPU Cards and the first time I checked the temperature it was 77c and gradually reached 86c (crossfire was enabled) when I enabled the fan controller and rise the speed 100% the temps went down to 38c ..

I realize now that fans are not running automaticlly when enabling the crossfire mode.. they are slow and their speed never change..

When I asked the support about the problem I assumed that they copy and paste a collection of heat solutions without even reading my whole problem..

I told them that I'm using x64 and they said use 8.2 version of the driver which I found out that it's for 32bit only.

I felt that I paid 1060$ for experimental unstable product.. Beta software..



Am I right? Do you agree with me? or is it only my luck with Ati?
April 23, 2009 4:38:41 PM

change the fan speed to 35~40%. Problem Solved.
April 23, 2009 4:40:03 PM

Vista 64 is horrible. I 'upgraded' to it about a month ago (actually i used my friends vists 64 bit disc because i had lost mine) and since then I've had no end of issues with my 4870's fan.

I also installed it on my old pc and eventually had to remove it and put XP back on. If you are having issues with your system, the first place to look is at Vista 64 imo.
Related resources
April 23, 2009 4:40:11 PM

Sorry about that mate. I am not sure why would a customer support refer you to using 8.2 drivers which are not even supported by ATI.
I would advise you on using the latest Cat 9.4.
I would be more than willing to try out your x2 cards in my case.
If you live in New York, come over and we'll test them together.

Cheers
April 23, 2009 4:41:56 PM

8.2??? That is 6 or 7 releases BEFORE the 4870x2 even existed...

Clearly you should use 9.4.. that being besides the point I ahve heard murmurs of a fan speed up bug with the second card. Don't quote me on when though, it was over at tha ATI forums.

I don't really see your problem though. 86deg is perfectly normal for a 4870, maybe a tad on the warm side but nothing to be too concerned about (but it really deends which GPU was at that temp). The temperature curve the fan speed follows in the bios is VERY conservative, it has to get mighty hot before it automatically gets anywhere near 100%. You can modify the bios and reflash it if you want.

The 4870x2 hs been out for a long time now.. it is quite mature now and certainly not "beta" or eperimental, you are having bad luck.. or are expectign too much from stock cooling.
April 23, 2009 4:43:20 PM

Quote:
Your an idiot.

Ati Supporter I'm no nVidia fan..

What we have here is.. experimental products..



April 23, 2009 4:44:47 PM

jennyh said:
Vista 64 is horrible. I 'upgraded' to it about a month ago (actually i used my friends vists 64 bit disc because i had lost mine) and since then I've had no end of issues with my 4870's fan.

I also installed it on my old pc and eventually had to remove it and put XP back on. If you are having issues with your system, the first place to look is at Vista 64 imo.


Shrug.. I have had nothing but a great experience on vista 64. To each there own.. Mind you I did a lot of tweaking (specially for my SSDs)..

Back on topic though, WTF does the op mean by "experimental products?" Do you even understand what the question you are asking is? Have you ever even owned a computer? Your teps are normal, up the fan speed like Scott said.. What exactly is the problem?
April 23, 2009 4:54:48 PM

Euphoria_MK said:

I would be more than willing to try out your x2 cards in my case.
If you live in New York, come over and we'll test them together.

Cheers



I'm not in US right now.. I'm returning to WDC in few years..



April 23, 2009 5:02:01 PM

daedalus685 said:
Shrug.. I have had nothing but a great experience on vista 64. To each there own.. Mind you I did a lot of tweaking (specially for my SSDs)..

Back on topic though, WTF does the op mean by "experimental products?" Do you even understand what the question you are asking is? Have you ever even owned a computer? Your teps are normal, up the fan speed like Scott said.. What exactly is the problem?


I meant that it is not stable.. rising the speed of fans is not a practical solution because of the horrible sound which they produce.
April 23, 2009 5:15:00 PM

What isnt stable?

And fans make noise I'm sorry to inform you. If you want a quiet PC you either have to go with watercooling or get slower components that are passive.

And how exactly did ATI deceive us? Perhaps you ahve a faulty card, perhaps you installed them wrong? What kind of case do you have? are you giving each card enough fresh air. If you are running in crossfire you are going to run into temp trouble unless you ahve a very well cooled case. So far it seems like PEBKAC
April 23, 2009 5:23:53 PM

some of the heat is probably do to poor ventalation caused by having two cards crammed close together...you need a case that has a video cooling fan, or another advanced cooling solution. Don't blame the cards for doing what they are supposed to do. Two Nvidia cards jammed together would produce more heat also. It has nothing to do with drivers or vista 64, its simple air circulation.
April 23, 2009 5:46:12 PM

belial2k said:
.... having two cards crammed close together... It has nothing to do with drivers or vista 64.


I have to use them closer to each other that is the motherboard design!! EX58-Extreme..

I'll not use the orange pci e x8 .. I'll use the blue PCI E X 16 as intended..

I think all agrees that Ati software in 64bit is weak and needs improvements.. it takes time to load (CCC 9.4) and sometimes it crash..
April 23, 2009 5:47:34 PM

jennyh said:
Vista 64 is horrible. I 'upgraded' to it about a month ago (actually i used my friends vists 64 bit disc because i had lost mine) and since then I've had no end of issues with my 4870's fan.

I also installed it on my old pc and eventually had to remove it and put XP back on. If you are having issues with your system, the first place to look is at Vista 64 imo.



That is the most ignorant, uneducated and ridiculous opinion I've ever read. After reading this I would suggest you to please refrain from giving any advices in future. You have no knowledge of OS nor Hardware and thus your advices are rendered useless, and possibly harmful to whoever listens to them.

Cheers
April 23, 2009 5:56:15 PM

Di7 said:
I have to use them closer to each other that is the motherboard design!! EX58-Extreme..

I'll not use the orange pci e x8 .. I'll use the blue PCI E X 16 as intended..

I think all agrees that Ati software in 64bit is weak and needs improvements.. it takes time to load (CCC 9.4) and sometimes it crash..


You have to understand, I use vista 64, I use 9.4 drivers, and I use crossfire. My system works flawlessly, I can play crysis warhead at 1900*1200, 4AA, enthusiast settings and never have a hickup... Its not because I got lucky, it is because everything is set up corerctly, and I took the time to optimize my system. That may not be the majority but if you know what you are doing things work fine, in fact it works great. I don't know what kind of CPU you have.. but you should be getting as much or better performance as me with 4 4870's. Assuming they are not broken.. which I doubt they are.

You don't understand what was meant by the comment the previous user said about the cards beign close together. Yes, we know that is how teh motherboard works.. HOWEVER, you absolutely must be prepared to accomodate the aspects of dual graphics cards. In this case you ahve to be willgn to suffer some loss of scalign in games (same with SLI*4) and cooling is a MAJOR issue. If you do not have a case designed with extra cooling for the GPU's then you should not be running crossfire. IE. you need a side fan, bottom fan, large intake with clean wire management, water cooling, etc...

Also, you cant jsut say teh cards are unstable, what about them is? Do you get atikmdag.sys errors? do you get BSOD's? what? any "instability" can be casued by any aspect of your rig, you cant just automatically blame the GPU.

I don't understand how people work.. maybe its jsut me.. but when I have a crash, when i ahve a slowdown, etc.. The first thing that pops in my head is "What did I do wrong, how can I fix it." Not, "What can be blamed for this problem, certainly couldnt be my fault." Hardware and software break from time to time.. but learning how to recognize what is a fault with something, and what is just diverting blame from yourself is a pretty good skill to have. If you wantto jump at playing the blame game then a high end system may not be for you.. maybe you should buy an alienware system so they do all the work for you.
April 23, 2009 6:03:41 PM

I own a company that builds custom computers, and use both 4870x2s, and gtx295s in quad....always on vista 64. I have never had driver issues. Yes, the boards make the cards close together, that is my point. If you are going to run quad crossifre you have to plan a good cooling solution, either in the case you choose, or by using water cooling. ANY two cards that close together will create some heat issues...so if you want them to run quiet you need to examine the rest of the system. The cards are not doing anything wrong, its your overall system design and expectations that are off.
April 23, 2009 6:14:30 PM

Di7 said:
I meant that it is not stable.. rising the speed of fans is not a practical solution because of the horrible sound which they produce.



Ah... So, the ignorance is intentional, then.
April 23, 2009 6:20:41 PM

daedalus685, you are right on the spot
April 23, 2009 7:15:29 PM

I'm using Gigabyte case with 5 Fans.. my CPU is i7 Extreme and it is perfectly stable 34-48C never reach 50 (or I never see that while I'm using everest ultimate edition..

when I face a problem the first thing I do is to search for the reason.. ?This time it is the heat.. the main GPU reach 86c easily -no activity- with no response from the fans..

Fans do not change their speed except manually.. SOME PEOPLE SAID IT IS SOFTWARE ISSUE.
(in single mode -one card- the fans is better.. with no crossfire I mean).


April 23, 2009 7:25:56 PM

Then flash the bios with new fan parameters or up the fan speed. It isnt complicated. Obviously you are not givign the cards enough fresh air. Havign 5 fans means jack if they are not set up properly, that you ahve 5 fans tells me absolutely nothing about the airflow through the cards.

I am telling you straight up that at 86deg it is NORMAL for the fans to not speed up. The fan speed curve starts to ramp up above 50% around that temp and into the 100's.

If you want it cool, with the fan speed at a certain level all the time... set the speed yourself!

There is nothing inherantly wrong with the 4870x2, whatever your experience. Could you have a broken card? sure. Could you have a driver issue? sure. Does it mean everyone, most, or even anyone but you do? Absolutely not.
April 23, 2009 7:54:22 PM

daedalus685 said:
Then flash the bios with new fan parameters or up the fan speed. It isnt complicated. Obviously you are not givign the cards enough fresh air. Havign 5 fans means jack if they are not set up properly, that you ahve 5 fans tells me absolutely nothing about the airflow through the cards.

I am telling you straight up that at 86deg it is NORMAL for the fans to not speed up. The fan speed curve starts to ramp up above 50% around that temp and into the 100's.

If you want it cool, with the fan speed at a certain level all the time... set the speed yourself!

There is nothing inherantly wrong with the 4870x2, whatever your experience. Could you have a broken card? sure. Could you have a driver issue? sure. Does it mean everyone, most, or even anyone but you do? Absolutely not.



I did not add 3 more fans until the problem appears.. but I remove them because I did not see a big difference.

The CPU temp is Great 36c mostly.. the temps of the GPU is the real problem reaching 86C with no load.

April 23, 2009 7:59:51 PM

Again.... The temperature of the CPU has NOTHING to do with the airflow through your gpu's...

And AGAIN, 86deg is NORMAL for the 4870 X2 under average cooling!

This is simply a case of PEBKAC and I'm not sure there is any helping it...
April 23, 2009 8:00:15 PM

Quote:
when I enabled the fan controller and rise the speed 100% the temps went down to 38c ..

lol try something like 40-45%, 'problem' solved. Though u can run it at 100% if u don't mind the noise...
April 23, 2009 8:11:21 PM

Quote:
The reason i said your were an idiot is because there have been thousands of posts from the first day these were released about people worried about heat and fans and they have all been answered multiple times. Hell, why do you think there is an intergrated fan control.

Anyone who spends the amount of money you have without prior research on an established products is an idot, no other word for it.


I bought many Ati cards before and they were great.. 4870X2 is not ready..

Thanks for telling me how idiot I am buying experimental products..

I'm asking anyone who has this card to test it in vista 64bit & xp 64bit and see how funny are the drivers..
April 23, 2009 8:18:31 PM

I'm sorry, but stranger is spot on...

Say it with me now.

"The card is fine for most users under x64"

"My experience does not translate into 100% of the user base regardless of how importnat I think I am"

"I have no idea what I am talking about when I throw around words like "experimental product" and "ready" "

"I will go read up on the 4870x2 before I bother people next time"

"I don't even know what I am complaining about beause several users have already told me how to fix my convoluted wording of my problem but I don't care"

"I will either allow others to educate me or be content in my inflated self worth and run off somewhere where the nice folk at toms hardware forum won't ever have to hear me again."
April 23, 2009 8:19:24 PM

Quote:
The reason i said your were an idiot is because there have been thousands of posts from the first day these were released about people worried about heat and fans and they have all been answered multiple times. Hell, why do you think there is an intergrated fan control.

Anyone who spends the amount of money you have without prior research on an established products is an idot, no other word for it.

I had to recheck the date, as I thought this was a necro thread, back when eveyone thought the normal temps were too high on these cards. I call PEBKAC, and an unwillingness to learn.
@ the OP, if you insist on running a high enthusiast rig, you can do 2 things. Pay out the nose for someone to "fix" your problem, or, solve it yourself.
My advise would be to ask a few people here as to exactly how they set up their rigs, or the rigs they make n sell, and how they solved this issue
April 23, 2009 8:35:50 PM

Di7 said:
I bought many Ati cards before and they were great.. 4870X2 is not ready..

Thanks for telling me how idiot I am buying experimental products..

I'm asking anyone who has this card to test it in vista 64bit & xp 64bit and see how funny are the drivers..


I have a very similar setup to yours. I have an i7 extreme and 2 4870x2s. They work flawlessly. They do easily climb into the 80-90C range, however it is nothing to be concerned about. They are DESIGNED to run at those temps, and if they're staying below 100 or so, and you aren't getting errors, artifacting, or BSODs, there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

Oh, and calling them experimental is somewhat idiotic - I seem to remember data showing that of all current dual GPU cards (including ones such as the 3870x2 and the 9800GX2, as well as the 4870x2 and GTX 295), the 4870x2 has among the lowest failure rates. This is hardly the mark of an experimental product.
April 23, 2009 8:39:48 PM

cjl said:
I have a very similar setup to yours. I have an i7 extreme and 2 4870x2s. They work flawlessly. They do easily climb into the 80-90C range, however it is nothing to be concerned about. They are DESIGNED to run at those temps, and if they're staying below 100 or so, and you aren't getting errors, artifacting, or BSODs, there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

Oh, and calling them experimental is somewhat idiotic - I seem to remember data showing that of all current dual GPU cards (including ones such as the 3870x2 and the 9800GX2, as well as the 4870x2 and GTX 295), the 4870x2 has among the lowest failure rates. This is hardly the mark of an experimental product.



But Zomg I didn't research my purchase and 80deg seems arbitrarily hot to me!! And heck with facts, they just get in tehe way of my oppinions on these experimental cards!






....Ok I'm done.
April 23, 2009 8:43:34 PM

daedalus685 said:
Again.... The temperature of the CPU has NOTHING to do with the airflow through your gpu's...

And AGAIN, 86deg is NORMAL for the 4870 X2 under average cooling!

This is simply a case of PEBKAC and I'm not sure there is any helping it...


It is a case of PEATOE wise guy..

Look.. if you have the cards just try them on Windows XP x64 SP2 and see if the OS boot..

You have to disable the main GPU in a single card to make it boot.

In Vista x64 no better.. when I enable crossfire by checking the small box and pressing apply button the computer crashes (normally the screen blinks then returns to os). I tried 4 different cards..

it is a hardware-software problem.. as I said 4870X2 was not ready.

April 23, 2009 9:10:04 PM

Quote:
So how do you explain other people not having this problem?


Does anyone successfully run quadfire in xp x64?

I was searching all over the technical forums about 4870X2's and I found out that many people are facing heat problems and software crashes specially under x64 OSs.

the performance is great if the fans set to 100% but unusable (who can stand that loud sound?).
April 23, 2009 9:18:16 PM

First of all, theres a world of difference between win 64 and Vista 64. Secondly, theres been at least 2 people right here that solved the heat issues youre refering to.
Simply put, instead of saying it cant be done, ask those that have already done it
April 23, 2009 9:38:59 PM

XP-64 sucks.

83C is not hot

Have you tried re-instaling Vista? Other people do not have your problem.

This is an issue with YOUR PC, not 4870x2 drivers.
April 23, 2009 9:42:40 PM

I don't remember quadfire even being supported in XP, and XP64 in general has terrible drivers. As for Vista64, mine is running flawlessly, so I've got to call this one user error.

(Oh, and if you're really concerned about the heat, you can set custom fan profiles in rivatuner. I've tried this, and it works quite well, but I prefer the quieter operation of stock, and they are well within spec).
April 23, 2009 9:50:59 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
First of all, theres a world of difference between win 64 and Vista 64. Secondly, theres been at least 2 people right here that solved the heat issues youre refering to.
Simply put, instead of saying it cant be done, ask those that have already done it


As I said I can reduce temps by using fan controller manually or liquid cooling system (and that what I'm going to do.)

The temps without activities is high affecting the performance. for ordinary uses I don't have to add extra cooling systems.. the fans with the GPU should be enough. (But they are not due hardware-software deficiency.)
April 23, 2009 10:19:31 PM

Di7 said:
As I said I can reduce temps by using fan controller manually or liquid cooling system (and that what I'm going to do.)

The temps without activities is high affecting the performance. for ordinary uses I don't have to add extra cooling systems.. the fans with the GPU should be enough. (But they are not due hardware-software deficiency.)

How are the temps affecting the performance? The cards will happily run all day long at 90C, and there is no performance change. At all. It may affect your happiness (due to your rather perplexing insistence that they have to run cooler), but it will not in the slightest affect the cards themselves.
April 23, 2009 10:23:43 PM

Who wouldnt want the cards at 38c? But thats just not reality for gfx cards. Certain cards run hot. The early 8800GT's were notorius for heat issues, even tho nVidia doesnt run that hot overall.
83c is normal for these cards under load
April 23, 2009 10:47:36 PM

My brain hurts... Seriously? you think there is a problem with the cards in general? Still?!

You know what, go ahead. Run crossfire and complain it increases temps, ignore manual fan speed, ignore all the information in the world and live in a fantasy world where video cards run at absolute zero.

The bottom line is any system I have built with 4870x2's works fine in vista 64. All these people here with them have no problems. My personal system with crossfire 4890's works better than i could have imagined with the newest drivers..

It is YOU that has a problem, not the cards, not ati, not vista 64. It is YOU that refuses to accept advice. In the end it is YOU that has to deal with your crappy system.. so either try to learn something to fix the problems, or go on having them, I don't care.

If your cards are running too hot in that they fail under load then you either have a broken card or, dare i say it again, terrible air flow.. But as if by magic you getting a broken card clearly means every 4870x2 made ever has the same problem.. Well as already pointed out they have some of the lowest failure rates ever.. but that's those pesky facts again...

If you were paying attention, read the posts, or were able to retain knowledge better than a goldfish all of your boggling little questions would be answered right here in this thread
April 23, 2009 10:49:44 PM

Quote:
Your an idiot.

Very kind of you :D 
April 23, 2009 10:53:34 PM

michaelmk86 said:
Very kind of you :D 



Sometimes the truth hurts. In this case the op should have been wearing a helmet...
April 23, 2009 11:01:32 PM

Thread Closed for the sake of the OP and the community. [:thegreatgrapeape:7]

Seriously, this thread is like complaining about the hassle of a manual gearbox on a new Zonda or Koenigsegg.
!