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3 dead tuners

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Anonymous
July 18, 2005 2:28:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

This is for Directv. During thunderstorm 2 RCA boxes and 1 HD Hughes
box lost the ability to tune in the sats I have a older Hughes box
and it works fine. I moved it to the various "bad box" locations and
it found the signals just fine. Moved the the HD Hughes box to the
location where the old Hughes box was and still does not work. The HD
Hughes box shows FAIL on the SAT tuner but fine on the OTA. I get
analog and digital OTA but zip on the SAT. The RCA boxes come on but
once again no signals. What could cause the boxes to fail. The dish
and LNBs are fine or the old box would not find signal on all
locations. The dish is grounded with copper wire straight to a ground
stake, less than 12' of distance.
We don't deal directly with Directv we have to go through a franchise
and they act like they have no idea how anything works other than
collecting their monthly invoice. They referred me to some repair
service that has yet to return my call. Any ideas on what could of
happened? I am not relishing the idea of having to worry about
equipment everytime it rains.

More about : dead tuners

Anonymous
July 18, 2005 2:28:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

Thunderstorm? Were these boxes properly grounded? It sounds like an
overcurrent spike took out some internal power supplies and/or damaged
some frequency tuning boards.
Anonymous
July 18, 2005 6:02:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:45:16 -0700, SAC441@webtv.net (SAC 441) wrote:

>Thunderstorm? Were these boxes properly grounded? It sounds like an
>overcurrent spike took out some internal power supplies and/or damaged
>some frequency tuning boards.
The dish is grounded as I stated and all boxes plugged into grounded
circuit and in addition the HD box was plugged into a surge protector.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 18, 2005 6:04:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:45:16 -0700, SAC441@webtv.net (SAC 441) wrote:

>Thunderstorm? Were these boxes properly grounded? It sounds like an
>overcurrent spike took out some internal power supplies and/or damaged
>some frequency tuning boards.

Also the cables are grounded at a connector before coming into the
house
Anonymous
July 18, 2005 4:29:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

You may have built a square fort with only three walls.
Your damage is typical of a protection system that did not
address every incoming path. Once any one utility wire
carries a destructive transient inside the building, well, too
many conductive and destructive paths exist inside a building.

A typical damage scenario starts with three AC electric
lines from the utility. Only one is earthed. The other two
make a direct connection from utility pole (or underground
service) to each tuner. The perfect incoming path for any
destructive transient.

Even worse, plug-in (adjacent) protectors did exactly as
claimed: shunt the transient from any one wire to all other
wires. Now the transient has more wires to destructively
enter the adjacent appliance. Adjacent plug-in protector
simply provided a transient with more wires to find earth
ground, destructively, via the appliance. Plug-in protector
did what its manufacturer claimed.

Still, to have tuner damage, the transient must also have an
outgoing path to earth ground. No problem. Satellite dish
wire is properly earthed where it enters the building. That
wire is the outgoing path. Defined is the incoming and
outgoing path, destructively, through the each tuner.

Myth purveyors confuse wall receptacle safety ground with
earth ground. Earth ground was provided by a 'less than 10
foot' connection to each wire of the satellite dish cable.
Note that distance is important. Dish cable would be properly
earthed. But AC electric and those plug-in protectors had no
earth ground - for too many reasons.

Some reasons: Distance to earth ground was too far. Wall
receptacle safety ground has numerous sharp bends and numerous
splices. Safety ground is bundled with other non-earthing
wires. IOW receptacle safety ground is electrically not an
earth ground. Those promoting ineffective protection would
avoid these facts so that you assumed otherwise. Deception by
an omission of facts is why they only say ground; not say
which ground is essential to protection.

Demonstrated by example is how those tuners may have been
damaged. The 'tens of times' less expensive (per protected
appliance) protector sold in Home Depot (Intermatic) or Lowes
(Cutler Hammer or GE) would have earthed before that transient
could enter the building. Without a 'whole house' protector
to earth those two AC electric wires, then your 'fort' was
missing the most critical wall. AC electric being the most
common source of destructive transients.

Plug-in protectors did exactly as their manufacturers
claimed. They don't claim to protect from transient that
typically damages tuners. They forget to mention which type
of transient. They forget to mention that wall receptacle
safety ground is not earth ground; not effective earthing.
They forget to discuss THE most critical component of a
protection system: earth ground. No earth ground means no
effective protection.

How to identify an ineffective protector: 1) No dedicated
wire for the essential, short connection to the earth ground
rod. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing.
Plug-in protectors meet both criteria for ineffective.

Don't take my word for it. Where does that plug-in
protector discuss earthing? Where do they even define
protection for each type of transients? How many joules? To
be equivalent to a minimally sufficient 'whole house'
protector (from Home Depot or Lowes), the plug-in protector
must be 3000+ joules. Why is it so undersized (hint: they
don't even claim effective protection)?

Effective 'whole house' protectors have names associated
with responsible and highly regarded equipment manufacturers:
Siemens, Leviton, Intermatic, Polyphaser, GE, Square D, etc.
What was the manufacturer's name on a plug-in protector ....
that provided a transient with more destructive paths through
the tuners?

Satellite dish cable must be properly earthed. But that
rule also applies to every incoming utility wire. 'Whole
house' protectors are so effective and so inexpensive that the
telco also installs one on your incoming phone line - for
free. But did you install and properly earth the AC electric
'whole house' protector? If not, then one whole wall is
missing from your surge protection 'fort'. The most common
source of electronics damage - AC electric. Being grounded is
not sufficient. Which ground? One ground is required by the
protection 'systems': single point earth ground.

Tom Johnson wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:45:16 -0700, SAC441@webtv.net (SAC 441) wrote:
>> Thunderstorm? Were these boxes properly grounded? It sounds like
>> an overcurrent spike took out some internal power supplies
>> and/or damaged some frequency tuning boards.
>
> Also the cables are grounded at a connector before coming into the
> house
Anonymous
July 19, 2005 6:57:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:29:04 -0400, w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks and I will get an electrician to install one as I really don't
care to go through this again. We have what seems to be a lot
thunderstorms here.

> You may have built a square fort with only three walls.
>Your damage is typical of a protection system that did not
>address every incoming path. Once any one utility wire
>carries a destructive transient inside the building, well, too
>many conductive and destructive paths exist inside a building.
>
> A typical damage scenario starts with three AC electric
>lines from the utility. Only one is earthed. The other two
>make a direct connection from utility pole (or underground
>service) to each tuner. The perfect incoming path for any
>destructive transient.
>
> Even worse, plug-in (adjacent) protectors did exactly as
>claimed: shunt the transient from any one wire to all other
>wires. Now the transient has more wires to destructively
>enter the adjacent appliance. Adjacent plug-in protector
>simply provided a transient with more wires to find earth
>ground, destructively, via the appliance. Plug-in protector
>did what its manufacturer claimed.
>
> Still, to have tuner damage, the transient must also have an
>outgoing path to earth ground. No problem. Satellite dish
>wire is properly earthed where it enters the building. That
>wire is the outgoing path. Defined is the incoming and
>outgoing path, destructively, through the each tuner.
>
> Myth purveyors confuse wall receptacle safety ground with
>earth ground. Earth ground was provided by a 'less than 10
>foot' connection to each wire of the satellite dish cable.
>Note that distance is important. Dish cable would be properly
>earthed. But AC electric and those plug-in protectors had no
>earth ground - for too many reasons.
>
> Some reasons: Distance to earth ground was too far. Wall
>receptacle safety ground has numerous sharp bends and numerous
>splices. Safety ground is bundled with other non-earthing
>wires. IOW receptacle safety ground is electrically not an
>earth ground. Those promoting ineffective protection would
>avoid these facts so that you assumed otherwise. Deception by
>an omission of facts is why they only say ground; not say
>which ground is essential to protection.
>
> Demonstrated by example is how those tuners may have been
>damaged. The 'tens of times' less expensive (per protected
>appliance) protector sold in Home Depot (Intermatic) or Lowes
>(Cutler Hammer or GE) would have earthed before that transient
>could enter the building. Without a 'whole house' protector
>to earth those two AC electric wires, then your 'fort' was
>missing the most critical wall. AC electric being the most
>common source of destructive transients.
>
> Plug-in protectors did exactly as their manufacturers
>claimed. They don't claim to protect from transient that
>typically damages tuners. They forget to mention which type
>of transient. They forget to mention that wall receptacle
>safety ground is not earth ground; not effective earthing.
>They forget to discuss THE most critical component of a
>protection system: earth ground. No earth ground means no
>effective protection.
>
> How to identify an ineffective protector: 1) No dedicated
>wire for the essential, short connection to the earth ground
>rod. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing.
>Plug-in protectors meet both criteria for ineffective.
>
> Don't take my word for it. Where does that plug-in
>protector discuss earthing? Where do they even define
>protection for each type of transients? How many joules? To
>be equivalent to a minimally sufficient 'whole house'
>protector (from Home Depot or Lowes), the plug-in protector
>must be 3000+ joules. Why is it so undersized (hint: they
>don't even claim effective protection)?
>
> Effective 'whole house' protectors have names associated
>with responsible and highly regarded equipment manufacturers:
>Siemens, Leviton, Intermatic, Polyphaser, GE, Square D, etc.
>What was the manufacturer's name on a plug-in protector ....
>that provided a transient with more destructive paths through
>the tuners?
>
> Satellite dish cable must be properly earthed. But that
>rule also applies to every incoming utility wire. 'Whole
>house' protectors are so effective and so inexpensive that the
>telco also installs one on your incoming phone line - for
>free. But did you install and properly earth the AC electric
>'whole house' protector? If not, then one whole wall is
>missing from your surge protection 'fort'. The most common
>source of electronics damage - AC electric. Being grounded is
>not sufficient. Which ground? One ground is required by the
>protection 'systems': single point earth ground.
>
>Tom Johnson wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:45:16 -0700, SAC441@webtv.net (SAC 441) wrote:
>>> Thunderstorm? Were these boxes properly grounded? It sounds like
>>> an overcurrent spike took out some internal power supplies
>>> and/or damaged some frequency tuning boards.
>>
>> Also the cables are grounded at a connector before coming into the
>> house
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 12:16:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

I assume you are aware that rain fade can occur during thunderstorms.
I have an older Hughes box and a newer one. None are HD. It all
depends on which transponder (channel) you are tuned to as to whether
you can get a good enough signal or not. For instance, my local
channels are on the strongest transponders, but other news channels,
etc. aren't as strong. Have you tried, during a storm or heavy rain,
tuning the entire channel band to see which channels come in and which
ones do not on each specific model receiver? I did with mine and now
know which channels I can get on each receiver during heavy
rain/thunderstorms and which ones give me the "Searching for satellite
signal" message. Hope this helps.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:28:13 GMT, Tom Johnson
<tljohn@bellatlantic.net> wrote:

>This is for Directv. During thunderstorm 2 RCA boxes and 1 HD Hughes
>box lost the ability to tune in the sats I have a older Hughes box
>and it works fine. I moved it to the various "bad box" locations and
>it found the signals just fine. Moved the the HD Hughes box to the
>location where the old Hughes box was and still does not work. The HD
>Hughes box shows FAIL on the SAT tuner but fine on the OTA. I get
>analog and digital OTA but zip on the SAT. The RCA boxes come on but
>once again no signals. What could cause the boxes to fail. The dish
>and LNBs are fine or the old box would not find signal on all
>locations. The dish is grounded with copper wire straight to a ground
>stake, less than 12' of distance.
>We don't deal directly with Directv we have to go through a franchise
>and they act like they have no idea how anything works other than
>collecting their monthly invoice. They referred me to some repair
>service that has yet to return my call. Any ideas on what could of
>happened? I am not relishing the idea of having to worry about
>equipment everytime it rains.
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 8:04:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

A lot of variables in your case. Third party subscription being the worst.

If a lightning strike did produce a surge it would most certainly affect
more than just your DTV receivers. Other appliances would also be affected,
and if it transient spikes hit the receivers chances are they wouldn't even
power-up.

Start at your first "bad" receiver. With your "sat out" coax unhooked, use a
small piece of coax with connector on one end attached to receiver and the
other end stripped back with both conducters isolated. Turn on your receiver
and measure the output voltage with a multimeter. You should have roughly
13-18vdc. This will tell you if your LNBs are being powered up by the
receiver. Next do the same test before and after any multiswitch you have
connecting that receiver, all the way to the dish. Check voltage at the
dish, also. Do this for all bad recevers. If you have the correct voltage
all the way to the dish then your receivers are properly powering the LNBs.
If not, ou need to find out where the voltage is dropping off.

If your voltages are good then take a look at your access cards. Are they
properly inserted. If you remove the cards make sure the receiver is off
when you remove them. Make sure they are not dirty or they do not have any
residue on the contacts. If the gold printed circuits are black anywhere
then that is a problem. NOTE: You didn't mention if you had any messages on
the DTV screen.

If still no signal then the next step is to ascertain if the access cards
are valid with DTV. In your case this may present a problem seeing as how
you go through a third party. A normal cutomer whose account is in good
standing can call DTV and have the access card checked by the techs at DTV.
They also have the ability to "reset" your receiver via satellite while your
on the phone, but I don't know how this works with a third party. I have
heard of DTV sending a signal to nullify certain access cards which are
suspect or delinquent. What your service procedures are, I don't know.

If a card has been "smoked" by DTV then it has to be replaced.
July 21, 2005 10:38:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

Chip Saunders wrote:
Turn on your receiver
> and measure the output voltage with a multimeter. You should have roughly
> 13-18vdc.

Should this voltage be constant or will it fluctuate? Mine fluctuates
between 1, 14 and 19 volts and then repeats the cycle.
July 21, 2005 10:41:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

Chip Saunders wrote:

Turn on your receiver
> and measure the output voltage with a multimeter. You should have roughly
> 13-18vdc.

Should this voltage be constant or will it fluctuate? Mine fluctuates
between 1, 14 and 19 volts and then repeats the cycle.
July 22, 2005 12:04:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

I am certainly not the expert here, but since the two voltages used to tune
different transponders are around those voltages, I would assume it is
scanning for a signal.

Clark

"TC" <TcNoSpam@sunlink.net> wrote in message
news:D %RDe.1706$0C.1159@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Chip Saunders wrote:
>
> Turn on your receiver
>> and measure the output voltage with a multimeter. You should have roughly
>> 13-18vdc.
>
> Should this voltage be constant or will it fluctuate? Mine fluctuates
> between 1, 14 and 19 volts and then repeats the cycle.
>
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 2:30:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

You are correct. The receiver is scanning for an "odd" or "even" transpoder,
i.e. "Searching For Signal". The 1 volt is merely drop-off as the transistor
switches. The 19 volt is just a "peak".

This tells me it can't find a transponder/signal.

13v is for odd transponders

18v is for even transponders

Another question: Have your channels in your guide vanished, or are they
still there, including locals if you have them?

Second question: Are you using multiple SATs 101, 110, 119?
July 22, 2005 6:46:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

Chip Saunders wrote:
> You are correct. The receiver is scanning for an "odd" or "even" transpoder,
> i.e. "Searching For Signal". The 1 volt is merely drop-off as the transistor
> switches. The 19 volt is just a "peak".
>
> This tells me it can't find a transponder/signal.
>
> 13v is for odd transponders
>
> 18v is for even transponders
>
> Another question: Have your channels in your guide vanished, or are they
> still there, including locals if you have them?
>
> Second question: Are you using multiple SATs 101, 110, 119?
>
>

My configuration:

Winegard RV Digital Satellite System(installed on the roof of my motorhome)
RCA DRD430RG Receiver
DirecTV Total Choice Plus

Location:

Northwest New Jersey(Zip: 07840)

Symptoms:

The system had been working fine until Thursday, 7/14/2005. Since then;
when I activate the system; "Searching For Satellite Signal" is
displayed.

When I invoke the Signal Meter I have 0(zero) signal strength regardless
of how I adjust azimuth and elevation.

What I have done:

Disconnected the dish cable from the Satellite In connector on the
receiver. Connected a shorting cable to the dish cable. Disconnected
the dish cable at the dish and checked for continuity. Checked Ok.
Removed the shorting cable and checked for shorts. Checked OK. Checked
for grounding. Checked OK.

Tested the voltage at the Satellite In connector on the receiver.
Fluctuates between 1, 14 and 19 volts then keeps repeating.

I can't display the guide at all. I am only using satellite 101(A),
transponder 18, which always provided me with the strongest signal.

All receiver generated functions work fine, i.e.

Menu System

Dish Pointing , Signal Meter, etc.



Perhaps the LNBF is bad?
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 5:47:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

Don't know really how to break this to you, but transponder 18 on the 101
bird is empty. There is no signal. 17 is used, and 19 is used, but 18 no.
Also not used on the 101: 4, 12, 20, 26, 28, NOTE: 24 is used but only for
HI-DEF PPV.

Try some other transponders. The techs have told me that TP 1 & 2 are the
most powerful. They carry channels that include MTV, Direct Shopping
Network, WE Women's Entertainment, E!, and The Health Network.

Let me know how you make out. Once you get a signal the guide will build
itself.
July 23, 2005 5:03:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

Chip Saunders wrote:
> Don't know really how to break this to you, but transponder 18 on the 101
> bird is empty. There is no signal. 17 is used, and 19 is used, but 18 no.
> Also not used on the 101: 4, 12, 20, 26, 28, NOTE: 24 is used but only for
> HI-DEF PPV.
>
> Try some other transponders. The techs have told me that TP 1 & 2 are the
> most powerful. They carry channels that include MTV, Direct Shopping
> Network, WE Women's Entertainment, E!, and The Health Network.
>
> Let me know how you make out. Once you get a signal the guide will build
> itself.
>
>

That is strange; because I have been using transponder 18 for the past
3 years with about 96-99% signal strength.

Since my problem manifested itself, I have tried transponders 1-32 to no
avail(0(zero signal)).

That's why I'm currently leaning towards a faulty LNBF.

I'm taking the receiver to a shop, which has DirecTV, to verify that
there is no problem with the receiver. If it checks out OK I will
probably purchase and install a new LNBF.

I'll let you know how I make out.

Thanks for your help thus far.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 7:03:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

If you were getting a 90+ signal off of the TP 18 then chances are you were
getting it from the 119 bird.
July 23, 2005 9:51:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

Chip Saunders wrote:
> If you were getting a 90+ signal off of the TP 18 then chances are you were
> getting it from the 119 bird.
>
>
I had 101(A) selected. The shop couldn't get a signal from my receiver
so I purchased a refurbished RCA DRD440RE. I am now getting a good
strong signal from 101W(this receiver doesn't provide the option of
selecting a satellite, thus forcing 101W) transponder 18(current
strength: 97%). I'm glad I went that route instead of arbitrarily
installing a new LNBF.

Thanks, again, for your help.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 10:33:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

Glad you solved your problem. Did some research on TP 18. Recently DTV
opened TP 18 for channels 961-974, but only for spot beam locals in D.C.,
Chicago, Los Angeles, Seattle, Nashville and San Diego. Chances are channels
961-974 don't even exist on your guide.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 10:41:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

Just a clarification: The reason you receive signal strength on TP 18 is due
to the D.C. spot beam bleeding into your geographic area. Your access card
prohibits that channel from being listed or viewed.
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 2:12:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

AS a follow-up, I called about my HD Hughes unit and was referred to
Directv. They sent out a tech and replaced the two RCA recievers at
no charge and told me I had to call in again for the HD unit. I did
and they sent me a replacement Directv refurbished HD-10 unit for
$149. Bottom line was I did lose three of four boxes, the boxes would
come on but not get a signal. Also the dish LNBs were not damaged or
anything else in the house. I have now protected the units with 3000+
joules spike protectors that filter electrical, OTA, SAT, and phone
inputs.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:28:13 GMT, Tom Johnson
<tljohn@bellatlantic.net> wrote:

>This is for Directv. During thunderstorm 2 RCA boxes and 1 HD Hughes
>box lost the ability to tune in the sats I have a older Hughes box
>and it works fine. I moved it to the various "bad box" locations and
>it found the signals just fine. Moved the the HD Hughes box to the
>location where the old Hughes box was and still does not work. The HD
>Hughes box shows FAIL on the SAT tuner but fine on the OTA. I get
>analog and digital OTA but zip on the SAT. The RCA boxes come on but
>once again no signals. What could cause the boxes to fail. The dish
>and LNBs are fine or the old box would not find signal on all
>locations. The dish is grounded with copper wire straight to a ground
>stake, less than 12' of distance.
>We don't deal directly with Directv we have to go through a franchise
>and they act like they have no idea how anything works other than
>collecting their monthly invoice. They referred me to some repair
>service that has yet to return my call. Any ideas on what could of
>happened? I am not relishing the idea of having to worry about
>equipment everytime it rains.
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 2:30:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.satellite.tv (More info?)

There is no spike protector that stops or filters what 3
miles of sky could not. Effective protection earths before a
transient can get into the building and overwhelm protection
already inside those boxes. Anything that was going to work
adjacent to those boxes is already inside those boxes.
Plug-in protectors just forget to mention that and many other
facts.

Now matter how many joules inside a plug-in protector, it
still does not even claim to protect from the type of
transient that typically damage electronics. Effective
protectors don't even claim 'filtering'.

Effective protection is defined in a previous post that
begins:
> You may have built a square fort with only three walls.

stexdog-general@yahoo.com wrote:
> AS a follow-up, I called about my HD Hughes unit and was referred to
> Directv. They sent out a tech and replaced the two RCA recievers at
> no charge and told me I had to call in again for the HD unit. I did
> and they sent me a replacement Directv refurbished HD-10 unit for
> $149. Bottom line was I did lose three of four boxes, the boxes would
> come on but not get a signal. Also the dish LNBs were not damaged or
> anything else in the house. I have now protected the units with 3000+
> joules spike protectors that filter electrical, OTA, SAT, and phone
> inputs.
!